What Can You Do When Defrauded on eBay? 382
"Most of us followed the proper procedures. You wait 30 days to file a fraud claim on ebay. Then you have the option of getting $175 at most from eBay's insurance. It softens the blow, but for many it's not anywhere close to what they lost. Contacting local authorities hasn't accomplished anything nor has filing with the FBI. Many people who paid via PayPal did get a refund, but others paid via checks.
eBay has been one of the bright spots of the internet. As a NYSE listed company, you'd expect more to be done about helping customers. I hope this question comes as a warning to be more cautious on eBay or not to bid for items on ebay over $400 without escrow protection. I've learned my lesson not to do business with anyone who doesn't use paypal or billpoint. But regardless of what we learned, most of us feel helpless because eBay has not done more to get our money back. Any suggestions?"
Paypal doesn't give you much more protection (Score:2, Redundant)
Re:Paypal doesn't give you much more protection (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Paypal doesn't give you much more protection (Score:2, Informative)
Re: protection - as long as it doesn't cost them (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Paypal doesn't give you much more protection (Score:4, Informative)
Not true! Paypal will cover any transaction, provided you follow some simple and quite obvious steps:
- Conduct transactions with verified users
- Ship/send money only to the listed address
- Use some common sense and not deal with someone who... say..., wants that new computer bought at $300 shipped overnight to a MailBoxes Etc., doesn't care shipping is going to cost $250, and says he's paying with a credit card (which just happens to be in the name of someone else).
Really, how hard is it to spot things like this? Same thing applies to sellers. Ship to confirmed address and have paperwork/tracking numbers to back up your end of the transaction. I deal on Ebay all the time, people have tried to screw me over, but I take some common sense. In every case, I've either got my money back, or a replacement from the seller.
Of course, on the other hand, the support systems of both Ebay and Paypal are terrible. It's not uncommon for it to take 4 or 5 days to get an illegal auction cancelled (bulk email addresses) on Ebay, or a month to report a spammer using Paypal as a payment vehicle.
Re:Paypal doesn't give you much more protection (Score:3, Insightful)
After a month of sending emails and phone calls, of which none were returned, I filed tried to use SquareTrade, this at least got a response but still no fix. I then filed a complaint with PayPal. PayPal looked into it, and a few weeks later sent me a nice email, explaining that yes I had been defrauded, they found 100% in my favor, the refund. $0!! My guess, the seller had disappeared off of PayPal, so no money could be recovered. This was 6 months ago, and I have given up hope in getting anything back. (I was contacted by the District Attorney for Washington state, apparently the seller had started taking money for products and not sending them soon after my problem)
Re:Paypal doesn't give you much more protection (Score:2, Informative)
PayPal won't help you even if you follow the rules (Score:4, Interesting)
I purchased (or should I say, paid for) a GeForce 3 for roughly $400 from a certain merchant [altima2000.com] (that now appears to be defunct, imagine that). They were a verified user on PayPal, everything seemed legit. Two weeks pass and I get nothing, not even a notice of shipping delay. After a whole slew of emails back and forth, finally ending with me buying the card somewhere else and telling them to cancel the order, the "merchant" just stopped responding altogether.
So I took the matter to PayPal. Their response: "We have investigated your claim and found the seller to be at fault. However, we are unable to recover any funds because the seller's account balance is zero. Thank you, have a nice day."
What in the blue fsck is that? The fact that I played by every one of their rules, and they even admit I was defrauded by a so-called "verified" seller, and yet still refuse to extend any consumer protection to me, ticks me off even more. The SELLER should be the one biting the bullet, not me. I did my part of the bargain. He didn't.
So short moral of the story: don't use PayPal to pay for anything you think might have even the most remote chance of going awry. In the end it's no different than sending cash.
I am still trying to get that $400 back -- apparently the next step is going straight to my bank and disputing the charge, although I hear PayPal loves when people do that. Well, they can have all the love I'm willing to give on the matter, for being oh so helpful with an obvious fraud case.
Re:Paypal doesn't give you much more protection (Score:2)
Escrow Transactions (Score:5, Insightful)
Ebay (Score:4, Interesting)
Auction fraud (Score:5, Informative)
Look in to it.
JKoebel
Re:Auction fraud (Score:5, Informative)
Absolutely. Since this is interstate commerce, it falls under the category of Mail Fraud. Contact the postmaster in your area, as well as the FTC. You might also want to seek legal advice (I wouldn't retain a lawyer yet) to get specifics for your locality (and his).
Re:Auction fraud (Score:2)
What options are there when consumers have been frauded on auction websites?
And in the poster's own words:
But regardless of what we learned, most of us feel helpless because eBay has not done more to get our money back. Any suggestions?
I think he's asking for resolutions to his problem, not prevention for next time. Personally, if I'd lost $1700, I'd try my damndest to get it back before I allowed a "next time" to occur.
Re:Auction fraud (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Auction fraud (Score:2, Insightful)
That may be true, but vigorous enforcement can have a deterrent effect. Part of the reason that people try these things is that they think that they can get away with it. If they start reading about people who have been fined thousands of dollars and/or sent to jail for a few years for trying to defraud people on E-bay, they may have some second thoughts about doing so themselves. It's certainly not an ideal solution, but since there are already people out there to use as examples it makes sense to prosecute to the full extent of the law.
Re:Auction fraud (Score:2, Funny)
What does IIRC(Intensive Internet Relay Chat) have to do with it?
Re:Auction fraud (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Auction fraud (Score:4, Interesting)
About 14 months ago I was informed a couple had been arrested in Texas on no less than 850 cases of mail fraud as many people had refused to use credit cards but rather used mailed money orders and cheques. I later saw reports in the IT section of our national paper discussing the conviction of a texas couple for E-Bay auction based mail fraud. I assumed that was them. I believe they were given 800 years of jail time, they were to serve a minimum of 5 years with the remainder to run concurrently. The fraud was believed to have netted over $200 000. The whole case was one of the first to actually progress through the courts, as an example. I guess they were lucky, being held in Texas they may or got the chair
When I mentioned it to my father he was a little concerned over them having to do time. How else though would you deter people from doing it again?
Re:Auction fraud (Score:2)
Award the amount frauded plus quadruple damages to the victims... Just a suggestion. I don't know what the current limits are, but I doubt the current law allows for that much.
FTC has trained more than 700 in 20 countries.... (Score:3, Insightful)
As part of the ongoing Internet law enforcement initiative, the FTC has trained more than 700 law enforcement and consumer protection officials from 20 different countries, including 17 federal agencies, 25 state governments and 14 Canadian consumer protection offices in online investigation and law enforcement techniques in locations ranging from Anchorage, Alaska to Paris, France.
Sounds like these are the boys (and girls) in blue to talk to. This [ftc.gov] is where to find them to file a complaint.
I helped put one of these guys in jail (Score:3, Insightful)
I identified an auction under a new name that was obvious fraud (the image was a link to someone's random web page). He also sent me email claiming to have not know anything about blades using his new email address - but signed it with his real first name, and used technical terms no layperson would know.
We arranged for the deputy(!) he ripped off to be the winner on the bid and got a snail-mail address from him for the postal order. (We'd tracked him down, but he'd moved to another state, and we needed his new address.) When he tried to pick up his check at the PO box, he was arrested. About a dozen blades were recovered, and he was convicted.
Banding together made us FAR more able to get action; this was probably one of the earliest arrests of an eBay seller. Of course, things have changed since then I imagine. Back then I bought a $2500 sword via eBay by personal check (and he mailed it before he received payment - the catch is that he knew who I was from the sword community).
To a certain degree some people on eBay are like people driving around in a van saying "psst: want to get a great deal on some speakers" or "hey, genuine rolex, only $100". Why shuld you trust them? Photos are hardly evidence the item ever existed.
eBay will protect you -- to an extent (Score:2, Redundant)
Re:eBay will protect you -- to an extent (Score:2)
Use Ebay's gurantee for something up to $200 then Escrow for above that. Really not that tough to figure out.
I think I read a suggestion (Score:5, Interesting)
The thing about it is, mail fraud is a federal crime which much higher penalties than other forms of fraud (Internet fraud being generally unclassified). If you get ripped off online, you can try to complain to your local police, or the police in the criminal's jurisdiction (if you can find it) but you will probably get nothing.
In you involve the mail system, then the it becomes a federal issue that is tackled by the Office of the Postmaster General and/or the FBI?
Don't quote me on this, but it would be definitely something to ask your local post office about. If a seller is legit, they should have no problem putting some information on paper and mailing it to you, right?
Other than that...the other thing that was suggested is use a credit card. Paypal had a big fight with credit card agencies on whether people can dispute Paypal charges for fraudulent auctions, but I seem to remember that the courts came down on the side of consumers (yes they could dispute) forcing Paypal to get insurance.
Sorry I couldn't find a link, but maybe it helps narrow down your searching?
- JoeShmoe
Mail fraud site (Score:4, Informative)
For details and to file a complaint:
http://www.usps.com/postalinspectors/fraud/welc
Re:I think I read a suggestion (Score:2)
USPS Postal Inspection Service is our friend. (Score:5, Interesting)
Between the TWO who paid by USPS we crossed the felony fraud line for them. It took them about 2 months to find him (he skipped his address and skipped on his roommates too). Though all I got back was ebay insurance (so far), USPS PIS did find him and jail him. I've not heard if they'll go for recovering all of our money, but eBay was very friendly with the USPS setting up the case.
Moral: NEVER PAY BY ANY MEANS BUT USPS. People who only accept PayPal are likely to be trouble because they know that there can't be a USPS inspector knocking on their door if they exclude that mechanisim for payment.
-- Multics
Re:USPS Postal Inspection Service is our friend. (Score:2)
What I did: (Score:2)
It probably depends a lot on your bank/credit card company, but I've been 1-for-1 so far. (I don't intend to try for 2-for-2.)
- A.P.
Re:What I did: (Score:2)
My Screwed Experiences with Ebay (Score:4, Informative)
1. From one seller, in 4 different auctions I bought 4 15" monitors for $25 a piece. Shortly after I sent him a money order for the combined total of the 4 auctions, this guy seemed to disappear off the face of the earth. His user account was cancelled, his email address bounced mail, and his phone number was disconnected. eBay didn't do anything for me at all.
2. I bought a Cisco 3000 router that claimed to have 16 MB of RAM and 8 MB of Flash (enough to run IOS 12.0). I receieved the product which had barely enough flash & ram to run IOS 9.0 (worthless nowadays). I contacted the seller, he promised to send me the replacement RAM & Flash, he sent me some bunk chips that didn't even fit in the device. After numerous other emails and phone calls with no answers, I finally gave up. ebay didn't do anything for me on this one either.
3. I won an auction for a bootleg TOOL video. I sent the guy the $14 total, and I never received a product. Apparently this guy screwed over 4 other people bidding on the same item from him, we all left negative feedback. This time the amount was not enough for ebay to care.
Each time I filled out one of ebay's fraud reports, and never EVER got a response. Since these losses weren't too important, they were all things I never really needed, just impulse buys that would have ended up sitting in a corner taking space, I don't really fret over it. Plus, if you believe that the grand scheme of things fits together in one huge orchestrated puzzle that meshes together... they'll get what's coming to them.
Wanna buy a bridge? (Score:5, Insightful)
After I've defrauded you on this, you won't feel the need to pursue it personally, because after all it's only $25. This is great, because I can now go and defraud the next guy, and eventually become a millionaire.
The point is, "these losses weren't too important" just don't cut it. You have some sort of responsibility to ensure that these people don't f**k over other people too. If everyone just rolls over because it's too much hassle, they'll never stop because it's profitable.
Please, for OUR sake, do NOT forget about these types of things, and pursue them as hard as possible, no matter how trivial $25 or whatever seems to you.
Thanks,
MadCow.
Re:Wanna buy a bridge? (Score:2)
In the case of the guy selling me the tooltape, I eventually got a copy of the entire video on the internet for free, and I figure 5 negative feedbacks all in a row for one account is a good sign you have a deadbeat seller.
What goes around comes around, but when I take a gamble (what I consider every ebay transaction) and I lose, I will not waste my life for a small amount of money.
Ummmm... what would you suggest? (Score:2)
1) left bad feedback on the sellers,
2) filled out fraud reports, and
3) finally moved on.
What exactly is he supposed to do? Track down the sellers, shave their cats, and blow up their houses? Realistically, you take a risk when you use eBay, and it's probably best attenuated by using PayPal/Billpoint and merchant agreements to insure yourself.
Re:My Screwed Experiences with Ebay (Score:2)
The system works (Score:5, Informative)
If you paid by check or money order, though, you're just plain silly. Just because a seller has a fancy auction page or a good feedback rating doesn't mean you should send a check for $400-1000 to a total stranger somewhere else in the country and expect the seller to make good on it. Where's your common sense? People get busted for that all of the time and auction sites account for the majority of fraudulent online activity. So think before you pay next time, and good luck getting your money back.
-CT
Re:The system works (Score:2)
What IS true, though, is that most merchants, if you have ever disputed a charge with them, will never accept a credit card from you again (which makes sense, no?)
Re:The system works (Score:2)
Re:The system works (Score:2)
You have 'merchants' or whoever that then deal with the end-user businesses.... you have an extra tier of service.
Canada, we don't.. the 'merchant' is the business/client, and the other end is a bank. Period.
Re:The system works (Score:2)
That's all an ecommerce providor is, the little box you swipe your card through. The only difference is the little box is a small cluster of computers that checks to make sure the transaction will hopefully go as smooth as possible.
I know of quite a few canadian oriented businesses that do ecommerce through merchant access kits. Most companies don't have the cash or resources to maintain a direct veriphone contract anyway, which is the only way you can clear and process (Merchant => Bank) credit card transactions. In most circumstances it's Business => Merchant Vendor => Bank.
Re:The system works (Score:2)
Re:The system works (Score:3, Interesting)
This happened to me recently. Someone used not only my citibank card number, but also figured out my address and phone number (creepy...) and ordered some "virtual phone cards." I immediately notified citibank, who terminated that account, and rolled my balance over into a new one. I had new cards within days.
Furthermore, if you take advantage of it, being defrauded can make it that much more difficult for someone to steal your financial/personal information again. If you put a fraud watch on your SSN with the three major credit agencies (Equifax, Experian, and Trans Union), you will stop receiving pre-approved credit offers, and all institutions requesting to extend credit in your name must speak to you personally to confirm first.
Furthermore, if you've been defrauded, you can probably get a free copy of your credit report, and that can potentially help you clean up a whole other category of problem: inaccurate (but not fraudulent) credit information.
In short, disputing charges only puts you out for a few days, and is totally worth the hassle if you've genuinely been swindled. If you do it repeatedly, you might run into trouble, but that's because you become rightfully suspected of either taking advantage of the system, or handling your cards insecurely.
Duh ... use escrow services. (Score:5, Interesting)
On several occasions, shady-sounding individuals have backed out of auction deals with me, after I suggested using Tradenable. To me, that's the surest sign of a huckster and a good indication that escrow works.
Re:Duh ... use escrow services. (Score:2)
went privately for a purchase (almost $3k camera) after bidding on it on ebay and having my bid NOT take for some reason (my bidBastard(tm) auction assistant must've failed me - darn!).
for such a large sum, I would never have done this without an escrow. was able to pay that day via credit card, have him ship it the next day, and I got it the day after that. all was well. for anything over a few hundred $$, escrow is the way to go.
Have the seller ship (Score:2)
Re:Have the seller ship (Score:2, Informative)
Try changing your username (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Try changing your username (Score:2)
Yea, that'll work.
The problem with Reputation... (Score:5, Insightful)
Listing how much money was spent as part of the feedback doesn't really help either. Just set up a ring of ebay accounts, bid on each other's stuff, and have it sell for higher values. Sure, ebay gets a small cut, but all you're really doing is buy reputation from ebay which you use to screw other people. Suppose I forge $5000 of transactions on ebay and they take 3%. I just bought an enormous amount of reputation (trustworthy for $5000 in transactions) for $167. It shouldn't be that hard for an unethical person to go make $500/scam off of 20+ people.
Lets face it... Reputation doesn't mean anything.
-Ted
Re:The problem with Reputation... (Score:2)
Still, there's no reason you can't sell $1000 items for a while and then gyp a whole lot of people for $1000... it's a danger but I agree with those that say anything over $100 you should probably buy through escrow (though I'll admit I've bought a lot more expensive items than that without escrow).
Re:The problem with Reputation... (Score:5, Informative)
Well, gee... Your saying maybe we ought to look at the actual circumstances of the transaction rather then some overall number? Anybody who does Ebay business regularly should look at the seller's actual auctions. More than once I found deadbeats trying to build up feedback like this. Usually a ring of new accounts, all selling ridculous things like "Used condom" or "Banana peal" for $0.01 that closed 5 minutes after it opened with the "Buy it Now" feature. Easy... report them, accounts closed, move on with life.
Just set up a ring of ebay accounts, bid on each other's stuff, and have it sell for higher values
Well, that's a good idea too, it's called "Shill bidding" and it's against the rules. Again, by looking at the actual auctions you can easily detect this. Don't just look at the feedback of the seller, look at the feedback of those who left the seller's feedback, and the feedback of those who left the feedback of those who left feedback. Are they all the same people? Are they all new users whose account were all created the same day? If so, it's a pretty obvious clue there's some fraud going on.
Most criminals aren't very smart, instead they just rely on others being dumber than they are.
Re:The problem with Reputation... (Score:2, Insightful)
The whole reputation system is flawed because untrustworthy people are allowed to give out good feedback.
Err, you are lacking a base case without this! (the trusted people have to come from somewhere!!!)
Maybe a system where it is hard to gain trust and easy to lose is better. Kinda like TCP windows. Trust is gained point at a time, but lost by half. That way, one person with a complaint can really blow the whistle on a bad guy.
This would put the cost of scamming up quite a bit assuming each ripped off person provides the negative feedback.
Re:reword: problem with ebays broken reputation (Score:3, Interesting)
If it were done as a trust network [advogato.org] it would be much more meaningful.
Weight the trust passed on to people you certify (via feedback) using both the value of the item and the trust of the certifier.
A more useful metric of how trust worthy someone is would then be based on a combination of:
Do this and keep seperate ratings for buying and selling and enjoy the results!
Re:The problem with Reputation... (Score:2, Informative)
There are a couple of other things that you can do, too. There's a pretty reputable company out there called SquareTrade [squaretrade.com] that has a Seal that certifies sellers as legitimate. I doubt they can do anything is a situation of fraud, but they do dispute resolution too. They do some pretty extensive checking on sellers... plus they have a fraud protection guarantee so that you're protected against fraud for an additional $250 (over eBay's amount). I think they also have somewhere on their site where you can search for items being sold on eBay by their members, but i forget where it is.
*the tide is right for cowsurfing*
A fool and his money... (Score:4, Interesting)
The Ebay $200 insurance is a joke. You only have a chance to get $175 back and that's only when you spend many hours with their stupid hard-to-use forms . Ebay it self favors Ebay not the protection of buyers or sellers.
Same goes for the way Ebay removes Microsoft auctions. They are in bed with Microsoft so what else would you expect?
Escrow services work most of the time but they are not cheap or guaranteed. Bottom line if you can't afford to lose it don't buy on online auctions.
Escrow, with a twist... (Score:5, Insightful)
If eBay set up a decent, reliable, and affordably priced system and made it inherent in the auction process, the masses would follow.
Re:Escrow, with a twist... (Score:2)
One thing about escrow - doesn't the third party have to hold the item while waiting for the money (or vice versa, depending on which arrives first)? If that is the case, then EBay would need a large warehouse as well as inventory tracking just to keep things straight - and then there is always the possibility that things could be "lost" in escrow (sticky fingered employees) - hopefully that could be cut to the minimum (security and insurance mostly)...
Same problem from other direction: bad buyers. (Score:5, Interesting)
I both buy and sell on eBay. I've stopped listing auctions with the BuyItNow! option because too many of my auctions have been ended when a brand new bidder (i.e. someone who joined eBay within the last couple of days) comes and uses BuyItNow! to end the auction, then disappears completely and is never heard from/never logs into eBay again. Negative feedback doesn't help in this case, because these bidders inevitably have a feedback of zero or at best one and don't care if they lose one point.
Even without BuyItNow, I've had a number of auctions close and then never heard from the high bidder again, forcing me to relist and costing me time and money. In the worst case, one of my auctions closed at just over $300, the buyer e-mailed me a simply said "I changed my mind I don't want it sorry" and when I left negative feedback saying so, I of course got the retaliatory "FRAUD! Took my money and never delivered!" feedback. Legal action got the feedback removed, but that cost me as well.
I think that eBay should require a bank account number as a pre-requisite for buying or bidding. You agree when you join that if you default on a bid or if you are accused by n people of fraud, your assets will be frozen until the situation can be resolved and those involved can get the money owed to them.
Re:Same problem from other direction: bad buyers. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Same problem from other direction: bad buyers. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Same problem from other direction: bad buyers. (Score:2)
They do. It's called a Final Value Fee (FVF) refund.
Re:Same problem from other direction: bad buyers. (Score:2)
Re:Same problem from other direction: bad buyers. (Score:2)
That ol' stamp and envelope thing... (Score:5, Informative)
See if any of the buys used the U.S. Mail and/or a postal money order. If so, have that person or persons file a complaint with the postmaster of their zip code, and have him reference the other cases that you have dug up.
sPh
Re:That ol' stamp and envelope thing... (Score:2)
mail fraud is serious. might take time to resolve, but its better to have the US govt fighting for you than some uninsured company (yes thats right, paypal is not a bank and they don't conform to FDIC style rules).
also, ensure that you're not dealing with a minor! I once bought a cpu from a kid (not knowing it was a kid) via ebay. he promised it was going out, promised again, etc. weeks went by. I contacted others who bought from him and they also didn't get their stuff. I did get his phone number from ebay and his mommy answered the call. said her little baby wouldn't EVER do anything wrong... threatened small claims (we're in the same state, calif.) and he finally shipped the damned cpu. when I notifed ebay that he had 'borrowed' his mommies credit card to register for ebay, they promptly cancelled his account. sheesh, you'd have thunk they'd verify this before giving him the account!
buyer beware was never truer than on ebay.
what is eBay supposed to do? (Score:4, Insightful)
The scope we're talking about here is such that you can't expect local and federal authorities to burn lots of man-hours bringing you justice. You've done the right thing by reporting the incident, and perhaps something will come of it.
As others have said, the number one best idea for buying big-ticket items over eBay is to use credit, because of those great limited liability clauses. If someone doesn't take credit (or PayPal), you've got to ask yourself how much you'll be hurting if your money wings off through the mail and the item never comes.
Good luck.
Re:what is eBay supposed to do? (Score:2)
But if you think they do, and you think they have not fulfilled that responsibility, write a letter outlining your case, and how you think it should be resolved. Put the letter on paper with a physical signature. Address the letter to the Chairman of the Board of eBay, with a copy to the chairman of the Audit Committee if he is a non-employee director, or to the senior non-employee director if he is not (I think the audit committee must be non-employees but not sure). Mail the letters US Mail, registered, return receipt requested.
Note that you are unlikely to get any action anyway. But a registered letter to the Audit Committee must be logged and reviewed by someone, so you at least have a bit of a chance.
sPh
Interesting statistic from eMarketer: (Score:4, Informative)
Less than 66% of internet users have not been a victim of online fraud... Per victim, the price of fraud hovers around $600, which is more than most research estimates of average online retail spending.
What this means is that 34% of all internet users have been screwed over (if you believe their report). Show me another industry that has that high a fraud rate - there isn't, why? 'cause the Fed's would come down hard.
This just isn't acceptable.
Re:Interesting statistic from eMarketer: (Score:2)
Show me another industry that has that high a fraud rate - there isn't, why?
For starters, the Internet is not an industry. It is a worldwide public network
55 people is a LOT. Call EBay and the FBI (Score:3, Interesting)
Do what I did... (Score:5, Interesting)
- United States Postal Service
- Internet Fraud Center
- FBI
- Discover Card
- Ebay
- Billpoint
- PayPal
This guy is currently wishing he never heard of me, with several charges levelled against him, including:
- Mail fraud
- Credit card fraud
- Grand larceny
- Plus the fact this was all interstate, making it worse.
I also tracked his ass down using every known resource on the Internet, and ended up with his home address, home phone, AERIAL PHOTOS OF HIS HOUSE and more...
Needless to say, my money has been safely returned and he's in a world of shit. Sorry, asshole.
I think I know this guy! (Score:4, Funny)
I'm beginning to wonder if there are any good deals left on ebay...
I just got done with a fraud battle on Ebay... (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.mindspring.com/~bookdealers/ripoff.h
Pay particularly close attention to the sections on reporting the fraud to the IFCC section of the FBI, and the Postal Inspector fraud complaint form.
In the postal inspector's case, when you file a fraud report, they notify the person that they're being investigated. This led to me promptly getting a $600 money order from the criminal in question. They actually had the money order to me in a day, and it cost them $25 to mail it. File reports galore, and try to get as much information about the person that you can.
Do whatever it takes (Score:3, Insightful)
The seller answered email immediately until I verified that I sent payment (he insisted on a money order). After that, he wouldn't answer email and his Ebay account was cancelled.
I didn't take it laying down. I started by running a reverse lookup on his mailing address to get his phone number. Sure enough, that was disconnected. His email didn't bounce so I emailed him and informed him that I was contacting the local police department. I contacted the local police department and it turned out they'd had two complaints against the guy.
All of a sudden he appeared back and said that the "shipment must have been delayed". 5 days later the phone arrived postmarked the day after I notified the Police.
Auction fraud is fraud. Report it and hound them into the ground.
Use your Capital One Credit Card... (Score:4, Insightful)
The process is completly transparent, and Capital One fraud investigators then automatically take over if, neccessary. They know you don't HAVE to pay the bill, and most people won't if they have been the victim of a fraud.
The key is to do it quick, e.g. if you suspect you are dealing with a fraud, (e.g. "I just shipped it."), stop the charge. The worse that could happen is there will be a delay. Another option would be to stop the posting of the charge, but keep the charge. In this way, the seller is still guaranteed the funds because they are set aside for them, but they don't actually have them in their hands.
This has worked good, and is why you should NEVER transfer money from your checking or bank account, because it's much EASIER to get credit back than your *real* money. PayPal says a bank transfer is the prefered method, and with good reason because they don't end up eating the cost when one their accounts commits fraud. You do.
Call the USPS. (Score:2)
Also, go to the FBI and mention RICO. The feds may take his computer.
How do we protect ourselves from fraud? Easy... (Score:2)
What's the difference? (Score:2)
But please, folks, keep in mind this happened before eBay and it'll keep on happening.
Retailers go under all the time, and they often take customers' money with them. Sometimes the officers will cut and run with the cash, too. Other times they simply went bankrupt and couldn't deliver what they promised.
A retailer can usually make more money keeping things together for a few months than it can by stealing and running away, so logically there's no reason to oommit theft. Unfortunately humans aren't always logical.
Sue (Score:2)
Many states have consumer protection statutes that allow recovery of multiple damages and attorney's fees. Although this guy may not be a "business" for purposes of these statutes, the number of transactions involved makes for a decent argument that he is subject to consumer protection statutes.
Also, if what he did really constitutes fraud, he may have committed at least two predicate acts (wire fraud) for federal RICO purposes. Federal law provides for civil damages for RICO violations, along with treble damages and the all important "cost of the suit, including a reasonable attorney's fee." 18 U.S.C. 1964(c).
Find yourself a good commercial litigator and go to town on this guy.
Paypal doesn't protect anything (Score:2, Informative)
I was defrauded (Score:2, Informative)
It looks like feedback for this user is still around. You can see the feedback.
http://cgi2.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewF
Basically, what happened was this person was selling RAM and processors. Selling more than hey had in stock, and buying after they have received funds from the buyers. Then RAM prices rose dramatically. Whoops, not enough money to buy the parts we promised to the buyers. Screwed.
This was also a case of a user with a preexisting high feedback rating, suddenly going bad. The buyers could not have helped the situation by researching on the seller.
Do I blame eBay for this? NO!!! I support eBay. They are just a trading marketplace, I would not want to endanger them or make their lives more difficult by trying to blame this on anyone other than myself, or the bad seller. This would cause problems that would make eBay !eBay.
I believe the San Jose police got in on the case, and they requested eMails from a lot of us asking to document our experience. I think I have that eMail around somewhere still, but am not willing to dig it up right now.
I got repayment through eBay's insurance system. I finally got a check from Loyds of London some time afterwards.
Bottom line; bad seller, not my fault, not eBay's fault, sellers's fault, seller is responsible. You sent a check somewhere, go find them, enter their home during the night, and cut off their testicles with a dull rusty butter knife.
Problem solved!
Keep the horror stories coming, guys (Score:2)
I encourage anyone who has similar incidents to post them here; the existence of this story could prove a valuable deterrent that we can all utilize in the future. The next time you mail off a check and don't hear back from the guy, fire off an e-mail like this:
Or something along those lines.He had to cash those checks... (Score:2)
I'm also a victim :( (Score:2, Interesting)
I tried to buy a Siemens mobile phone, which ended up over £50, sent the cheque to the seller, and he never sent the item. Repeated emails were ignored. His phone number was invalid.
VERY annoying.
When he first started, he had a negative feedback rating, but it was only one comment about not accepting Escrow (he claimed that he didn't know it defaulted to accepting it.) That should've set off alarm bells I guess, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt since it was such a minor issue, bidded and won.
More interestingly, after the end of the transaction, he gained positive feedback. That's one good thing out of it anyway, since you can't claim fraud insurance from someone with negative feedback.
What confuses me is HOW he got the positive feedback. They were all from people who seem to have a good reputation too - some with stars next to their names.
So it doesn't make sense! Why would they praise him/her? Yet I'm 99% sure it's fraud - he gives a different name and address in his profile, the phone number is invalid, and he stopped replying to emails the moment I started questioning him on why the package hadn't arrived.
Maybe some of these criminals set up more than one account, and bid highly on each other... then add positive feedback to each other's accounts (without exchanging items or money of course).
In which case, the feedback system is total bull that means nothing whatsoever.
I really don't trust EBay now.
Any better suggestions?
Are you sure? If so, start these wheels turning (Score:2, Interesting)
Then, assuming due diligence,
http://crs.ebay.com/aw-cgi/ebayisapi.dll?crssta
That's eBay's fraud report form.
I had a problem of a seller not shipping and did the same sort of backtracking to find other victims. After using eBay's seller info and some Anywho [anywho.com] research, I was able to track down the seller directly. Faced with that information and the prospect of group action, I got the seller to finally provide what they had sold. The key was just starting the "machinery" promptly and as completely as possible. YMMV
Class Action (Score:3, Informative)
This seems the way to go, collect information about the one individual, and bring it to the state. I happen to be fortunate because he forged my signiture several times when providing documents to the state, so I have a very strong case, so perhaps people might not have as good luck as I do.
The downside is I provided all of this information to the state, and it has still been 10 months, and I have not got word on how the case is progressing.
Re:Class Action (Score:2)
I have absolutely nothing against you (heck, I don't even know you), but that sentence alone tells me that you got what you had coming without even needing to read the rest of your post.
For purchases of that magnitude, one would have to be a few sandwiches short of a picnic, so to speak, to make such a purchase via an online auction (except, for example, if purchasing the vehicle from a manufacturer-authorized new-car dealership who was making the sale online).
In my opinion, anything purchased from an online auction site for over $100 should be paid for through a company like Tradenable [tradenable.com] to avoid being bent over and sodomized with an 80-grit sandpaper dildo by a dishonest seller!
NOTHING YOU CAN DO! (Score:2, Insightful)
Good Reputation = Easy on e-bay (Score:2, Informative)
It may be time consuming, but to swindle people for $400-$1700 per fraud, you're looking at a pretty good take for your effort.
I got outbid on a fraud auction. Shortly before I got outbid, I got suspicious and discovered this guy had tons of auctions ranging greatly in what the items were and the costs. Many were dutch auctions. Before he finished his first auction, I got together a group of high bidders, pointed out what I saw and over the next few days, one of the guys in the group said he lived near the address being advertised. He checked it out and confronted the guy.
Poor bastard wouldn't back down. Those who actually ended up sending him money filed for mail fraud with the USPS. It wasn't long before he found himself in court. So, go to the USPS would be my advice. They take this stuff seriously and don't make you wait for satisfaction.
Report Fraud Here (Score:3, Informative)
IFCC FBI Complaint Center [ifccfbi.gov]
One of their prime purposes is to handle online fraud.
Got burnt too, PayPal useless (Score:2)
PayPal takes 30 days to follow up an incident, during which time they give the seller a chance to respond. The guy never answered their emails and calls, so they decided in my favor. Which amounted to exactly squat: they said that they can't refund the money, and that's it. Period.
Moral of the story: I won't spend any sums on ebay that I couldn't live with losing. Which basically means amounts considerably under $100, preferably around $25 or so. Any more than that, and I pretty much want to see a shirt that I could grab in anger.
PS Philips serviced my TiVo for $140, so I wasn't completely out of that money. But I ended up spending definitely more than retail.
Mandatory escrow? No way. (Score:3, Insightful)
Look how many valid transactions are on ebay. How many dollars worth of commerce. What percentage of those are fraudulent? Anyone? I'm willing to bet it's extremely small.
I just fail to see how anyone can expect ebay to take care of it. It's very, very clear that ebay is merely factilitating the auction, for a fee from the seller. Everything else, including payment and product delivery, is between buyer and seller directly, unless they chose otherwise. There are plenty of escrow services available for a fee already. Ebay does not need ot make it 'mandatory'.
File suit (Score:3, Interesting)
It takes some time, but you can use legal process to make ISPs, Mail Boxes Etc, credit card companies, and the USPS disclose identity info.
FBI and ebay (Score:3, Informative)
My Experience (Score:4, Interesting)
The original poster has come up with about the best way I can think of to get back at some of the slime who defraud others through eBay - contact other victims and organize.
Example? My ex-brother-in-law, a complete slime, sold coins through eBay. The coins were either overgraded by him or not delivered at all. Eventually, through the tireless efforts of his ex-wife, my sister, a wonderful woman who you just don't want to piss off and who was determined to pay him back for his theft of several hundred thousand dollars worth of her property as well as his bigamy, the authorities in Texas began to take notice. She organized the victims, put them in touch with the detective handling the complaints, and prodded them to support the lengthy prosecution process.
He was eventually charged with 42 counts of felony fraud. Last week, he made a deal with the prosecutors. He made full monetary restitution to all 42 victims, got his charges reduced to class A misdemeanors for fraud, plead guilty to those misdemeanors, and was sentenced to 6 months probation. As a result, he's lost his precious license to carry a concealed handgun and his life will be tied to the whims of his probation officer for quite a while. For a guy like him who can't stand any structure in his life, that puts him just one slip-up away from a parole vioation and jail time. I'm looking forward to it. Timeline from first victim to final disposition: about three years.
My advice: The law can work. You just have to be patient and motivated.
Always look at the seller's feedback details (Score:3, Informative)
My auction was for a video card, and it was like, $35+$10 shipping. And my case wasn't all that bad, it was supposed to be "new in box" but it obviously wasn't. The box was cut up, will all UPC info, and even some of the specs cut off. The card was in an open static bag, and the "brand new" manual bad was taped back together. I complained, and the guy claimed he just opened it to make sure it worked ok, but it was obviously BS. But, the card did work, and it _was_ actually the right card and all, so I didn't bother filing any official complaints or anything.
Other people's auctions were things like "untested, as-is hard drives". Of course the guy had tested them, because among a lot of 10 or 20, not a single one would be good. The guy's responses to his negative feedback were things like "I said it's as-is, what do you expect?".
Here's another flawed aspect of auction feedback ratings though. I have a 118 positive feedback rating on ebay, with no neutrals or negatives. I have a 1 positive feedback rating on yahoo, 2 positive, 1 negative. What's my negative from? This guy. I, of course, left negative feedback, and the bad seller, in retailation, left negative feedback for me. I don't think I'd ever leave negative feedback for anyone on ebay, because I KNOW they'd leave negative feedback for me as retribution, and it would ruin my perfect reputation. That's a really crappy situation, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who's dealt with it.
Re:cut his balls off (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Good Feedback isn't a guarantee. (Score:4, Interesting)
First, ebay's much hearalded feedback system is constructed to discourage negative feedback. The text on the feedback page pleads with you not to leave negative feedback. If you decide to leave negative feedback anyway you must go through an extra confirmation page that is not required for positive feedback.
Second, it opens you to retaliation from the other party in the form of negative feedback. The only negative feedback I ever received was retaliation from the only seller I ever left negative feedback for. Investigating his feedback history I discovered that he only ever left negative feedback, and most of that was retaliation for negative feedback he received.
Re:CC companies (Score:2)
CC companies are not white knights many make them out to be. In my experience, anyway.
We had a dispute with a moving company once. They were a load of late, lying, box-smashing bastards. They had all our stuff, couldn't tell us when it would get to our new place, and had charged our credit card a huge amount, including last-second things we never agreed to. The moving company hadn't even made us sign a contract.
We called the credit card company to see if there was any way we could stop payment or apply pressure to the movers. There wasn't. Since it wasn't a broken piece of merchandise, but a SERVICE, they utterly refused to get involved. They said that if you paid a company for a service, and that company then altered the terms of the arrangement -- charging more, delivering less, whatever -- that the CC company would not take action on your behalf. Period.
Maybe it was just one brain-dead rep. I dunno. That is the first and last time I have ever tried to get help from a CC company.
(Luckily my employer was paying for this move, so I had little motivation to go to court or something like that, and it worked out in the end. Except for the hassle of not having my stuff for 3 WEEKS when they said the move would take 4 DAYS.)