What Do You Do When CS Isn't Fun Any More? 1177
wonderless asks: "Long ago and far away, I thought that I was going to be a Great Geek, and that I was going to provoke a revolution in the computer industry--and indeed, the world--with my mastery of technology. I could hardly wait to throw myself into an intense, highly technical curriculum and shine. But as I said, that was long ago and far away. Now I'm one semester away from graduation, with a 3.5 average overall and a lackluster 3.0 in CS, and I'm liking it less and less every day. I used to be able to say that at least it pays well, but now I can't even take solace in that. I drag myself to classes and through projects, and it all seems really pointless--I'm just implementing what's written in the book, and eradicating the countless off-by-one bugs is nothing short of mind-numbing. I'd like nothing better than to recapture the feeling of joy I used to get out of doing this, and to once again be able to say I'm doing what I love. What do you do when it isn't fun any more, but you'd like it to be?"
Become who you were... (Score:2, Insightful)
Go do something else, maybe (Score:4, Insightful)
I have two degrees, one in CS and one in Archaeology. CS isn't what I want my career to be in, but I can take my computer skills and development knowledge and apply it to archaeology problems.
I like computers and archaeology a lot, though like I said, I don't want to be stuck in the computer industry for the rest of my life (can you say: Middle management, and other un-fun things when you get old?). But I like it enough that I can take it and mix it with something else I like and come up with a winning combination.
Talk to your advisors, too. That's what they get paid for. Mostly, though, you just have to go out there and do what you want to do, money be damned.
Good luck!
Sam Jooky
You compare (Score:1, Insightful)
Hear my violin? (Score:4, Insightful)
Unless you go to work for a company doing research in CompSci you are going to be doing pretty much the same thing say-in and day-out when you get a job.
All I can say is don't lose your appreciation of computers but realize that not all computer related activity is going to be cutting edge and challenging. Keep working and eventually you will get the chance to do what you want.
Obviously... (Score:2, Insightful)
Study somemore. (Score:5, Insightful)
CS is an enabler for most of us not an end.
You do not even really need to go back to school for this.
Hans
Two long, one short. I am lost.
Congratulations are in order (Score:1, Insightful)
Welcome to our world. Everyone thinks it's hot stuff, but after you've done it for a few years, it's all the same.
Makes it hard to go home at night and do anything with computers.
Recapturing some magic (Score:3, Insightful)
It works for me as an mainframe contractor - take some time out, recharge your batteries keep doing it until you're bored. Then come back to the keyboard...
the problem word here is "undergrad" (Score:5, Insightful)
You're right... your job will more than likely be doing what everyone else is doing - implementing the well-known. Whee-hah. Sounds like that is exactly what you want to avoid.
I'm not usually one to advocate this, but go to grad school. You'll hook up with the people who are developing what will be the standard years from now, and are researching the bleeding edge. A Master's degree will be a good start.. if you want to really push the envelope, you gotta go all the way to Ph.D.
Grad school will break you out of the its-been-done rut you seem to be in. The only problem might be the cost (it's never cheap), and your grades. Check with some of your professors, see what it takes to get in. You may need to take another year and polish yourself up.
Failing that, start a pr0n website. Pr0n always seems to be on the cutting edge...
As Far Away As Possible (Score:2, Insightful)
Electronics Engineering (Score:2, Insightful)
What to do... (Score:4, Insightful)
Finish it out. I wish I had - but I got into the job market before the dot-com bubble started or burst, so I was lucky enough to not have to depend on my degree to get me just in the door. Now I'm going the night school here at an in-town unoiversity.
You're going to need the degree, coming in with minimal experience. I know, it sucks, but finish it out, then get out of the programming. I still go back to it for fun when I wanna do something, but hell, it's surely not what I want to do for the rest of my life.
Interdisciplinary Work (Score:2, Insightful)
A CS degree is not just a way into *yawn* programming for some company or sysadmining looking after morons and their computers. It is knowlege that can be applied across the board to a myriad of fields of research, either academic or commercial.
The same applies to non CS degrees in the CS field - my (postgrad) degree is in Medieval French, but I'm working with computers in order to create electronic editions of medieval manuscripts; using XML with a search engine to enable people to search texts, descriptions of archives, descriptions of museum items, libraries etc. Find something else that interests you and you can say that you love, and apply your IT knowledge and skills to it.
-- Azaroth
I felt the same way (Score:2, Insightful)
So don't do anything stupid until you are out of school and employed (ie. don't drop out) Just get a job and see what happens. If you hate your job, look for another one.
If you are reasonably intelligent and interested in doing stuff, you won't have too much trouble getting a job. One of the positive things about a recession is that it will shake the idiots and dotcom losers out of the industry.
College Blues? (Score:2, Insightful)
- Which part of this large and growing field used to thrill you
- Which part of this large and growing field has burnt you out
Which would probably help you get better advice from everyone.
But it may just be a case of getting bored with the tiny, unrealistic projects that are typically used to teach computer science. Maybe it's not CS that has you down, maybe it's just college burnout. Applications in the real world tend to be more interesting in the sense that they're much, much larger, but less interesting algorithmically (is that a word?) speaking. You may find the real world to be a breath of fresh air, or you may find it even more oppressive.
In either case, finish your degree. You're too close to the end to give up on it. If you try some real-world CS and still hate it, you can try something else.
Experience is the key (Score:2, Insightful)
It sounds like you enjoyed it more as a hobby than as a serious career. If so, keep it that way and a find an alternative career that you can enjoy and use to pay for that hobby.
Things like the off-by-one bugs decrease significantly with experience. But, you also have to be disciplined and serious about your programming. I'm happy with this as I get great satisfaction out of having things just fall together and work well the first time. The initial effort might seem dry, tedious and unnecessary (design!), but I find it pays off in the long-run.
There's nothing more frustrating than having to deal with somebody else's sloppy code and basic bugs. Ultimately, I've found working with a team of senior and/or good software engineers results in better code to work with, so there are fewer of those off-by-one and bad pointer bugs to deal with in the first place. Unfortunately, you might have to "do your time" to get there.
Another set of options.. (Score:4, Insightful)
There are a few things you could do. If you can get certifications, get them and start working as a roving prostitute.. err... consultant. Good money, hotel rooms, and you can screw with peoples' networks at will. Tee hee hee.
You're too far along in school to check out other options, realistically.. but maybe see what other things you have interest in and try to cross-pollinate those interests.
Maybe try becoming a kernel hacker. Either it'll cook you or you'll be helping out Everyone And Their System.
The last option I can think of is PROZAC. You may be sufferring from depression (can't blame you.. like I said, it's a bitch!), so maybe a visit to the shrink would help.
Is it really just CS? (Score:3, Insightful)
Is it just CS and programming that you're finding yourself disillusioned with, or is it kind of everything in life right now? I ask this because it sounds to me like you may be depressed, and attributing the symptoms of that depression to loss of interest in what is currently one of the biggest parts of your life (getting through your CS degree).
If you feel like everything else in your life is just great, then feel free to ignore this post.
On the other hand, if you've been feeling a general sense of purposelessness, lack of motivation about other areas of life, experiencing sleep disturbance (either trouble sleeping or sleeping all the time), or been down about life in general, you might want to consider getting some professional counseling. If you are depressed, it's likely that when you get some help for the depression, you will rediscover your passion for technology.
BTW, IANAP (I am not a Psychiatrist/Psychologist) so standard disclaimers apply.
Teach (Score:5, Insightful)
The pay is not great, and if you decide to stick it out, you'll have to take a fair amount of courses. But if you are only into it for a couple of years, it will be a good break, and possibly very rewarding.
(I almost went this route after deciding that chemistry sucks. Got my MBA instead. While the toys are nice, I would have preferred teaching. But I wasn't going to take the teaching courses.)
Two different questions posed... (Score:2, Insightful)
In either case the answer is the same: do something else. The only way to be happy in the IT field is to LOVE what you do. All of those people who started CS degree programs in school 3 years ago just for the money are pissed now that they can't come out of school with a 2 or 4 year degree and move immediately to a six-figure salary. Any job in IT means long hours, often tedious work, and dealing with people who generally resent you for your intellect. If you're not in it because you love technology you won't last long, IMO.
On the plus side, a job in IT can be VERY rewarding if you love technology. It's *always* challenging, you get to be around the latest technology (usually), and there's always something new to learn. Also, if you start in the programming (software) side of it and burn out, you can always move to the hardware/networking side, or vice-versa. Or do like a lot of people (myself included) and do a little of both. The people who thrive in the IT field are people who get bored easily and are always up for a new challenge. Sounds like this guy is either lazy, or his school isn't challenging him enough.
Shayne
Lives of quiet desperation. (Score:2, Insightful)
I mean that almost everyone reaches a point in their lives (usually somewhere in their twenties) when they come to the realization that they are not destined for true greatness. That they'll probably just lead ordinary lives, one in billions.
Don't get me wrong here, there is still plenty of oppourtunity for joy and even, dare I say it, job satisfaction. But we can't all change the world.
And I think that the poster was expressing this, more than a dis-satifaction with computer science.
Or, hopefully, I'm wrong. About everything.
Maybe for you.. (Score:5, Insightful)
I got my CS degree in may, although I've been working "in the real world" through a co-op since january. And compared to school, I -love- it. Yes, of course the projects aren't going to be as interesting as you want, and there's the beaurocrats, and all the other stuff you mentioned.
But compared to boring classes where a good percentage of the professors are even dumber than PHB's, or at the least, even MORE close-minded, working for a real company, with real goals, and real projects, is amazing.
And no, I don't work for some new-wave dotcom...I work for IBM, one of the oldest dinosaurs out there. So if I can deal with it, and still love it, even after struggling to stay awake through college (and only come out with a 2.7GPA), then others can too.
It ain't easy to kill a geek
Been there, done that... (Score:5, Insightful)
My advice. Sit back and ask yourself what's really important to you and what you enjoy. In my case, I liked teaching and programming, but not the rest of the baggage that came with being a faculty member. I got into instructional technology, and it's been a much better fit. I'm not rich, but I don't wake up in the morning dreading work.
Do you like to write? Check out technical journalism or documentation. Would you rather just nail boards together? No shame in being a carpenter.
Perhaps no job sounds like fun. In that case, go get an MBA and head for the money. You can enjoy yourself in your time off.
The decision can be wrenching-after all that work, why would you just throw it away? I get asked that all the time. The short answer is that I'm happy now.
Eric
I get this from time to time and have a solution (Score:2, Insightful)
If you would like to look you can see the pics at my boat page [xganon.com] Some of my other projects are on my home page at This Location [xganon.com]
I wish you well and hope you can find a relase to help take your mind off of computers for a short time. I have found that when I go back to comptuers it is fresh and new and the joy is back!
excavating the fun (Score:3, Insightful)
I think a lot of non-adrenaline-based non-social fun has this in common: a challenge, that is not too hard to meet, but that gives a sense of accomplishment afterwards. Ideally it should be silly and/or have no useful impact on the world (like a cross-stitch project or a hike - not like cleaning the basement or a class assignment). Once you remember what fun is like, then you can get back to considering making an impact, because any piece of code that makes an impact requires support and maintenance and stability and responsibility, which, if you're already in a black mood and drowning in tedium, will probably not help matters.
[This advice is unspecific because I discovered that my friend and I do not do any of the same things for fun (I like write-only perl, he likes contemplating algorithms and theory?), so I do not think a list of "stuff I hacked up on a lark" will help jog anyone's memory of what part of CS they used to like.]
Re:Hear my violin? (Score:5, Insightful)
You say you are approaching the end of your college years. NOW is the time to pick somehting to make a hobby while you have a lot more time. You can even have a lot of hobbies. Facts of life are you go to your job to get paid and pay the bills, but your hobbies are what you love (and live for).
Try it in the real world before you give up (Score:5, Insightful)
The big thing that is missing in school is users. It's like saying that being a pilot isn't fun anymore because you have gotten sick of flight simulators. In the real world it isn't clean "just implementing things out of the book" anymore. You have real people counting on you (and often, other real people counting on you to fail). The stakes (and the pressure, and the thrill) go up accordingly.
Yes, batting practice gets dull. So does field stripping a gun. But we do these things, not as an end in themselves, but so we'll be ready when it's for real. That's when the fun starts.
-- MarkusQ
Re:I'm in EE and I feel the same way. (Score:1, Insightful)
Fields such as biology, chemistry and physics need cs work. computers are the next thing that will be used to promote these fields. so start taking on at least a minor in a science, and then go to graduate school in a field that combines the two majors (such as physical or meteorological modeling: using computers to model physics.) Basicly you should find any way to get off your current path and into a new major which uses cs less intensively
Re:Go do something else, maybe (Score:5, Insightful)
The whole reason to get a degree, IMHO, is to widen the possible jobs that you are employable in. You should pick a field that you enjoy, then pick from the choices you have in that field based on money or job satisfaction.
If the only thing you are in the field for is money, then you will be stuck with a job you hate, and money is no compensation. I guarantee you will be going back to school for another degree, or working in a different field without a degree.
Life is *way* too short to do something for a living that you don't want to do. Figure out what it is you *want* to do, and get the degree that fits into that.
For me, I like coding. But only on my own terms. I don't like working in a cube, I don't like hunting for bugs in someone elses code. So I won't do it. I code for myself, on my own time, and use my CS background to get me a job in a field tangential to CS.
This works for me. It might work for you, too. Course, the job I have (and enjoy) pays me less than I could make, but I never wake up wishing I didn't have to go to work.
Thats me.
Computer Science is Not Programming (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Go do something else, maybe (Score:5, Insightful)
I ended up with a minor in English in addition to my degree in CS. I really love studying texts and critically analyzing them, and it turns out, I'm really good at it - as good as, if not better than, I am at being a computer geek. There was just one problem: as I thought about going to grad school and doing work in English, I realized that although I am interested in the English Renaissance, as well as modern American literature, I don't have a deep interest in studying it. Sooo I scrapped the idea of grad school in English and opted for a position doing computer programming, because I knew how to program and it would pay the bills.
But life has many twists and turns, and I really love the studies I am now doing in the Bible, and I love it so much, that I wish my job didn't get in the way of my ability to continue intensively study it. And, as it turns out, a really great seminary has just added a branch campus in my city. So, next year, I'm planning on starting work on my seminary degree part time. It combines my love of analyzing texts with my burden to understand the Bible and the critical thinking skills that I have picked up through computer science. And it turns out I'm really great at teaching, and I think that this seminary degree will be a valuable way to augment my teaching skills and the knowledge teaching draws upon.
Now, I'm not saying that you should enroll in seminary. *grin* What I am saying is that you should look at your interests and look at ways to pursue them. Don't go for the whole enchilada, but take small bites. If your interest continues to be held, be willing to take the next step. I didn't know when I started taking literature classes for the hell of it that this would allign me for Biblical work, but it did provide a critical foundation for me. Taking the literature classes gave me an awareness of where my real interests lay. Go feed your interests.
Studying is *not* doing (Score:2, Insightful)
For me, the joy in software development comes from solving new or interesting problems or problems in a new domain, working on a team w/ other talented, insightful people. It's about having my mind engaged in a way -- or in a variety of ways -- that few other of the professions I'd explored provided.
Now, of course not all jobs in the software industry will always have the right combination of interesting problem, quality people and good management, but the longer you work in the industry (and the more practical problem-solving experience you aquire) the more you'll be able to be picky and choose jobs that have at least some of these things -- and it's often possible to be the spark that brings some of the other qualities oneself (for instance, not many Project Managers *want* to fail; if you find yourself working on an interesting problem in an environment that's poorly managed, suggest ways that you think the process could be made more conducive to producing quality work. You'd be surprised how often people pay attention to good ideas).
There are also no end of open source or Free Software projects to get involved w/, many of which are interesting, fun and useful all at the same time.
In any event, don't assume that your experience now necessarily represents what the experience of actually doing software development as a profession will be like. If it turns out after a couple years of working in the software industry isn't all you hoped, then you will have aquired a useful skill and still be in a position as multiple other posters have mentioned to pursue something else.
Re:Games (Score:5, Insightful)
Try it. Games programming will challenge you like you wouldn't believe. You'll sink or you'll swim, but if you last six months then you'll never fear another computer problem, ever.
As an aside, I went to one lecture in the second half of my senior CompSci year; it turned out to be a pre-exam revision lecture for a course I hadn't done. It was OK though, because I fell asleep, having been up all night hacking Netrek. [netrek.org]
So, I got a sucky degree (British 2.2) but I learned to work with a real world project, made up of various standards of contributions, I learned a little graphics, a little input, a little maths, and a lot of network. I learned that an RSA authentication scheme is practically unbreakable, but easily duped. It got me a handle that I'm still using ten years later. It got me my first job, as a games programmer, where again I had to learn a little of everything. That got me the experience that I needed to make up for my degree.
So, sure, give it a try. If nothing else, it'll fast track your decision about whether computers are for you.
Hack (Score:3, Insightful)
I felt the same way recently (I graduated in May). The job market is absolutely awful: it's nearly impossible to get an entry-level job at any good technology companies.
However, what gave me some fun was to hack again. I used to do it when I was a teenager. I bought a Dell laptop in my junior year of college, and recently took it apart from top to bottom. There was something like 100 screws in the end (20 of which didn't go back into the machine -- oops), but I was able to rebuild it "from scratch".
That gave me joy. It's an ability that very few people have, and I share with only those people. Friends were like "what are you doing?" when they saw the $3000 laptop in a million pieces, but I was able to get it back together in one night, in the process beefing up the speakers and rerouting some wires to decrease EMI (so I wouldn't hear the touchpad buzzing everytime I touched it).
When you actually enjoy what you're doing, everything else becomes secondary.
A word of wisdom from an old guy (Score:2, Insightful)
In that time I set up the first pc's (ibm 3270 pc), lan (token ring using IBM mau's and novell 3), webserver (ncsa with cello browser), firewalls and Internet connection. A lot of stuff that has didn't exist, arrived on the scene, and has evolved.
So, quit looking around you and start looking ahead. Does working with voice command technology sound cool to you? Then go learn about it! Find some stuff to play with and get ahead of the curve! Is programming getting you down? Then bone up on encryption and networking, the essentials of computer security!
Quit fretting about "Oh sh*t, I have to get a job in the real world and my GPA isn't 4.0 like all the business majors," IMHO if it is a true CS degree it shouldn't be 4.0. The best minds out there are those that don't confom to the preconceived notions of how things should be. We don't get anything new or useful out of that type of thinking.
Get your degree and find yourself a cool job. It probably won't make you rich, but I can guarantee that you won't be bored.
-Xanthos
Get an internship (Score:3, Insightful)
Get an internship 3 semesters ago.
I think it's very important to get an idea of what you'll be doing when you get out of school. The type of programming you're doing now isn't necessarily representative of the type of projects and problems you'll find in the real world. Projects especially may be more rewarding when you're not working in groups that only have people at or below your own skill level. I found that the type of work I was doing and the people I was working with during my internships and the amount that I was able to learn "on the job" made me feel like college might just have been a waste of time.
Now I know better. The CS degree gave me the foundation that I use to solve problems and learn new technologies and I've found that people who didn't get a CS degree (or didn't put in several years of work towards one) just weren't able to think about problems on quite the same level.
So my advice to you requires a time machine, but maybe some other folks in their sophomore-junior year can take it and get summer internships or co-ops in the field. It pays better than McDonald's (I know, I did that too) and it's going to be more useful later in your career (unless you're desperately in need of "character building")
- StaticLimit
Re:It doesn't get any better (Score:2, Insightful)
It's called being selective of the job you want, and not taking the first job you get an offer letter for. Everyone that I know that goes, "Man.. IT sucks! Coding sucks!" took a job too quickly. Any developer who has been in the field for more than 2 years can be selective, and take a job that is fun.
I remember being an undergrad in Mechanical Engineering. I got a job in the aerospace industry as a non-Mechanical Engineer. I remembered that I had once dreamed of being a design engineer (hey, that's cool stuff!). I watched what the design engineers were doing. I saw that there were five donkey jobs for each cool one, and the donkey jobs were pretty bad: you get to be the "Bracket 4157" Guru. That bracket is yours, and you own it for life, and it owns you for life. Your life is spent trying to shave the weight down on that thing by 0.005 ounces. And then some manufacturing engineer comes along with your design and says, "We can't build it." Back to the drawing board. Fun stuff!
Note: there are lots of people around with cool fun jobs, but about five times as many people stuck in donkey jobs who wish they had one of those cool fun jobs. The key: be better and hungrier than those people in the cool fun jobs. Dilbert is Real; it's also a default state. You have to work hard to get out of there. You also have to be a talented, skilled, and interesting person.
On the other hand, if you want to become a Crusty Old Curmodgeon [tm], there's nothing like a Dilbert job to get you there. And being a Curmudgeon has its rewards.
You obviously haven't been doing it very long... (Score:5, Insightful)
The computer industry makes huge leaps in no time. New tools and new technologies develop constantly. Do you hear that ringing beside you? It's a cell phone with an integrated PDA. See that black rectangle on the desktop? It's a laptop computer with a wireless network connection. These aren't just hardware... they've got software inside and somebody wrote it.
Not impressed by the newest gadgets? Ok, how about instant messaging? Internet telephony? StarCraft and Monsters Inc. for God's sake! Do you think Monsters Inc. could have been made 10 years ago?
And you think it's all the same? Open your eyes, look at all the new stuff you can do, and try to keep up.
When I was in school. (Score:1, Insightful)
Ask yourself why (Score:2, Insightful)
When I was getting my CS degree, I was quite bored in almost every class too. But it was because of the classes, not because I had lost interest in programming. And over the years if I've felt that I was losing interest or getting bored, it meant that I needed to change my focus, reorient what I was doing at my job; I've only had to actually change jobs once for that reason, but if that's what it takes...
Or I'll find a small project to work on outside my job, just for myself, which will engage my curiosity again by learning something new.
What I do agree with from other comments is that having other interests is really important. Naturally, if your life is solely devoted to coding, then you'd damn well better love it. And even then you'll be lucky not to burn out.
Yes, there is the possibility that CS has turned out to be something you should consider a secondary skill, instead of your focus. Just don't give it up without really examining what's causing your current lack of interest.
You don't have to code! (Score:2, Insightful)
My first job involved tweaking the GUI for performance on an embedded application on the network management module in a huge SONET network. That means I got a teeny-tiny piece of something huge that I knew next to nothing about. Sure I knew how to figure out the coordinates of the icons for network nodes, but how the communication took place and how the network worked was something I knew nothing about.
So why code? You get to know one small piece of the project very well, but that is ridiculous.
Try Product Management: the design of a project requires more technical skills than the implementation and especially the testing. I talk to cusomters, draft requirements, then assist the project leads in the high-level design. Then the developers go off and design the nitty-gritty details and code and test.
Try Sales Engineering: you get to work with customers and figure out how your companies products can help them out. Assisting on things before and after the sale still helps you keep your technical edge, and many times the customers are just as smart as you are.
Hell, try Product Support: help desk in a developer house (like Metrowerks) or a traveling Support Engineer in a telecom company (like Cisco) will keep you away from silly "Where is the Enter Key" questions. You work with other developers and engineers who are just as sharp as you are, only you have more focused knowledge on the tools they are working with.
So don't code! With a CS degree, there are plenty of other options. Look for those and you won't be turned away for not having the right skills.
Re:It doesn't get any better (Score:2, Insightful)
To the burned out 20-somethings... (Score:2, Insightful)
It doesn't matter whether it's with a different comany doing something similar, or whether you're doing something different altogether.
While, yes, work sucks sometimes -- it shouldn't suck all the time. It's just not healthy, especially at such a young age. How do you think you'll feel when you're 40? Then you'll hate your job, think you've wasted your life, that you're immobilized because you have to care for the wife/husband and kids, and resent THEM for YOUR lack of sac. I've seen it -- and it's not pretty.
We certainly weren't given these lives and bodies to make our souls miserable!
WTF? (Score:5, Insightful)
What a great time!
Now, I'll admit, I didn't get a CS degree. No, Anthropolgy major with CS minor for me, thank you. Of course, I had figured out in my sophmore year that Physics just wasn't going to pan out for me. Maybe all students should change majors after the first year or two. I dunno
Re:Congratulations are in order (Score:3, Insightful)
You, too, should probably be looking for a new occupation...
Definately (Score:4, Insightful)
FINISH. No if's / and's / nand's / xor's or 'well...I don't know man...the world is going to shit anyways so I might as well just blah blah blah...'s about it. Tell yourself whatever lies it takes to finish up your degree. Just do it. Trust us on this one!
You never have to touch another computer again for the rest of your life if you don't want to, but a degree - in ANYTHING - shows that, to some substantial degree, you can get your work done and see a difficult job through to the end. THIS is what employers of all kinds really like, and will also give you the self-assurance you will need if you choose to go it on your own and start a business or something.
Bottom line:
Shut the fsck up and do your damn homework.
; )
The Degree is the Beginning, not the End. (Score:5, Insightful)
Now.. as for jobs. There certainly are jobs out there for CS grads. They just might not pay someone with a degree and no experience $100,000 a year like they would have a couple years ago.. that's the difference. Things are more realistic now.
You can expect to find a job somewhere, programming, or whatever, and gain some experience. If you are good, in a few years, you will have that big salary.
It's a mistake to think that the university degree is what gives you your big salary... University is just one way to open the door to a particular field for you. (In some fields, it's practically the only way). Your experience and abilities are what really count.
No degree is going to automatically finish your career for you. A degree is a beginning, not an end.
Realize that there's hacking and everything else (Score:2, Insightful)
OTOH, not everyone is hacker/geek material. You just might not have the chops to do it. Nothing wrong with that, and better to find out now then to realized that you've wasted umpteen years doing something you don't like.
Refresher (Score:3, Insightful)
Try getting involved in some research projects. It probably should not be in the CS department, but rather one of the other departments. Lend you CS expertise to a different kind of undertaking. You will also get a chance to learn about something outside of CS as well as picking up some usefull experience.
If you can't find a school project to work on, make one of your own. Again try to go outside of a pure CS project and delve into something new. Think about ways your CS experience could improve something else and then do it.
For example, when I was in school, I worked on projects for the physics department and the business department. The former needed some automated data collection and the latter needed some statistical modelling. Both provided me a well needed break from the ordinary as well as intoducing me to some real world problems.
Although I have been in the field for about 6 years now (working for a major telecom mfgr), and I still take on "outside" projects from time to time. Be it setting up a webserver for a local charity or building a remote control boat from scratch, both provide me the relief from the monotony of always working on someone else's dream. It is refreshing and rewarding and helps you out back in "the world".
In summary - diversify your skills.
Re:Don't Major in CS! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Become who you were... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Go do something else, maybe (Score:2, Insightful)
Second that (Score:3, Insightful)
It took me a long time to learn a simple fact: you can find a subject really interesting and enjoyable but not want to do it as a career. If your decisions are rooted in what is most marketable and some now years-old idea of yor adult identity as an uber-geek, then you better kiss happiness in your working life goodbye because you can't start with pragmatism and try to force your happiness into what's left. You have to start with your happiness and then find a way to make it pragmatic.
No matter what you do there will be drudge work - if you're doing what you really love it won't bother you as much as the drudge of computer science obviously does. When you're excited enough about the outcome, the necessary toil becomes a mere obstacle, something to be overcome.
You are so close to graduating it probably makes little sense to try to change your major, unless you're close to a second in something you really like (you must be getting 4:0s in something to bring that GPA up). Have you considered graduate school? If you find something that suits you better (hint: you enjoy doing it), it doesn't really matter that much what your undergrad degree was. You might even be able to design something that combines the aspects of CS you love with a topic that will sustain you through the unavoidable drudgery component. If you have the time and opportunity, one possibility is to try to design a directed study as an experiment to finish out your CS degree. Combine a programming project with some sort of back-up area of study that you might consider as a career alternative. Maybe being in the drivers seat, coding for something you really have an interest in will reawaken your interest in CS - or else it might provide a bridge to a new focus of study. But take it from someone who's been there - don't ignore your dissatisfaction, because it won't go away and you won't get used to it. These people that say "welcome to the real world" have just settled. That's a choice we all have to make. It's never too late to change, but the sooner you decide to stick to your guns and choose to follow your heart, the sooner you will start working towards being happy instead of being miserable but addicted to an illusion of security.
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:the problem word here is "undergrad" (Score:2, Insightful)
Of course on the flip side you can't build a cathedral unless you know how to pick the right rock, know how to cut it, know how to lay it
Lastly, remember that the best won rewards are always the result of overcoming the hurdles along the way. Boredom is one of the more insideous ones.
Choose your path wisely and don't let others do it for you.
Seriously... (Score:2, Insightful)
I finally got sick of it, so I went back to school and learned a real skill that pays real money.
Sure, CS/IT/Whatever might not be the most glamorous career out there, but guess what? You get to make *way* above average money to sit on your ass most of the day, and you don't have to depend on the whims of drunken moronic assholes for your livelihood. Well, you shouldn't, anyway. If you do, get another job NOW.
The bottom line is - quit your bitching and be thankful that you are able to do this kind of work.
Re:Pay (Score:3, Insightful)
I have been in your shoes, and that is how I ended up in programming and systems administration. I started out to be a teacher and after trying it, discovered it wasn't all that I thought. I worked at jobs that I didn't enjoy for 7 years to earn enough $$$s to get a degree in computers (I was introduced to computers and programming while teaching). I should have done it right the first time. While you are young and still in school you can change much easier than going back at nearly 30 and doing it again.
Brother! At long last, I have found you! (Score:1, Insightful)
Be warned: Jack's handwriting sucks, so don't let him take your lecture notes.
School is not work in many ways. (Score:1, Insightful)
The projects that CS majors do in school are unrepresentative of what goes on the workforce. Real-world groups are larger. Projects can be so huge and span so many years that few have even a faint notion of their likely outcome. In short, if you enjoyed CS before college, it is likely that you will enjoy it again.
I agree with those who suggest getting a dual degree. If you are as I was, the last thing you want is to do is to stay in school for two more years.
However, life is much, much harder when you are working than when in school. And if you think you won't enjoy CS as you once did, life could be hell. With a second degree in a field you find stimulating while in school, you can bet it will satisfy you once you move on to real work.
Meta Education (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Another set of options.. (Score:4, Insightful)
"Yep, I bet its just the pre-graduation blues. Its like: this is it?? Now, you release me upon the unsuspecting world? Now, i know all there is to know??!? There HAS to be more to it than that".
I agree whole heartedly, I managed to burn myself out doing a zoology degree, spending 18 hours a day split between study, working in the library and conducting/helping with research work. Grinds one down after a while. I thought Id could stick it, for a while getting out of the university and just walking in a nearby forest helped reaffirm my inspiration for the field, and throughout the research I worked on helped. Though that was a two edge sword in and of itself, it just help to illustrate how irrelevant my studies where. Anyway I plugged away and ended up with a degree certificate I wouldnt even use in the lavatory and Im not talking about hanging it there either.
"I like the Prozac recommendation. I mean, i totally flipped out my last semester in school".
Id recommend caution over just hoping popping a pill will wash those blues away, with out some deeper examination of the problem, it will just treat the symptoms without addressing the causes. And the side effects of antidepressants arent much fun at all. Talking to a profesional might be a better solution, Cognitive Therapy and so forth.
I'd reccomend taking a year out, talk to your tutor and explain the situation, the university should oblige, after all its in their interests too to see you do well. Then go and do something inspirational, why not offer your services to that guy trying to set up net access in the Himalayas, or some other interesting voluntary work. Id caution against just working for the year.
Then after completing your degree, why not do a masters 'conversion' course to another subject to an aim to work in interdisciplinary manner with researches whatever in that field. Be it helping ecologists with their modelling/stats, writing embedded software for medical implants, stuff to analyse ECG data, and so forth.
After spending a year pondering what I want to do with myself Im just about to embark on a computer science degree with a potential aim to approach my former subject from another angle.
Whatever, just letting it fester, doing nothing and hoping to just plug your way through to the end of your degree is the worst course.
When was a CS major ever interesting? (Score:1, Insightful)
You should have majored in Physics or some sort of Engineering.
Re:Go do something else, maybe (Score:2, Insightful)
I agree with the ideas here. I experienced the same burnout when I was a chemistry major. But just to get out of school I switched to another major that I had enough credits in, English Lit.
All this time I was exploring my hobby of tweakin my PC at home. After I graduated I worked a few crap jobs, Management at Wal-Mart, remote repair of construction and packaging equipment, while going to school for my CS degree.
Once I got the degree I was hired by company that let me experiment with what I wanted to do (VERY LUCKY).
I tried programming (not for me) tried sysadmin (not bad still do some) and networking (that where I am now and loving it).
But it's more than do you love what you're doing, it's also where you are. School is a grind, work can be a grind. And doing what you love in a place you hate, may be hard to distinguish from just hating what you are doing.
Anyway, my longwinded point, CS is just as complicated as medicine, you can't know it all. You tend to get a specialized focus, and there are many things to focus on. And mabey just try to finish up school and step away from CS for a while.
If you find yourself being a 'hobby coder' mabey you should get back to it. Or if you're like me and end up building a network at home, just because, mabye look at the networking side.
Your degree doesn't lock you into the rest of your life. Now I understand that I have a job, and can say 'try new stuff,' but the real flexibilty isn't there with the market now, but get a job, and experiment with your hobbies, mabey you'll get lucky and have your hobby and your job be the same thing.
List of 3 favorite things and choose #3 for job (Score:2, Insightful)
It sounds to me like when computers is no longer a hobby for you, it becomes tedious. I woulud make that list, find something non-IT (or at least non-programming) related and spend the rest of your time hacking.
Re:the problem word here is "undergrad" (Score:2, Insightful)
Yes, you can get a stipend and tuition waiver, but no matter where you go you will be living close to the poverty level. This condition will last several years (average in physics is 6-7 I think, and it took me just over 8). During that time you won't be accumulating retirement savings, if you're married it's even tougher, and you won't be paying off your undergrad loans.
Compare that to spending 6-7 years working at some company. At the end of this time, you could be earning well over what a fully-tenured professor makes at the end of their career. You'll have paid off most of that college loan, and probably begun saving a large amount of money. Compared with the grad school track, you're doing very well! The difference may be close to a million bucks!
After grad school, you could probably get a better job than the one you would have started fresh out of college. But since then you would have made your way "up", and you would be earning the same amount as most grads do. So 6-7 years after the undergrad degree you would be earning approximately the same whichever way you go.
I'm not recommending against this. I'm still glad that I did it. But money is a big consideration -- grad school is an enormous sacrifice. You have to really want it, and be passionate about advancing the field. If you can't imagine yourself doing anything else, only then would I recommend grad school.
- Topher
It's not your life - it's a career (Score:3, Insightful)
That said, exercise extreme self control in your lifestyle - do NOT allow your lifestyle to rise to your income. Keep that 'starving student' mindset. Treat each job as a 'means to an end'. Always living at the limits of your income makes you a slave - don't fall into the consumerism trap. Start planning now to be the master of your money and not it's servant.
That's just the final year blues.... (Score:2, Insightful)
I finished my software eng. course last May. As the course went on I would hate it more and more just like you described. But you've got to realise that it's not the real world. Doing a course in CS is nothing like really doing CS.
I'm now enjoying working on my own small projects again, and I've a promising job possibly coming up. I'd suggest hanging on until the end of the course, and getting at least one job in the field before giving up on it completely.
Just been through something similar (Score:2, Insightful)
- Take some time away from CS
- broaden your horizons academically and otherwise.
- Then look at what you enjoy
- Do what you enjoy, money will come.
- Give yourself time to do all this and remember not to blindly copy others' decisions.
I have been through something similar recently and have stumbled through the above stages, albeit unplanned. The hardest part has been figuring out what I enjoy and that's where exploring all the options helped a lot. Now things are getting clearer and I think I know what I want to do.
You could also take some vocational/personality tests to help you figure out what you may enjoy. Your career office should be able to help you. They get paid to do this kind of stuff. Make sure you get a one to one consultation. Another resource (expensive!) is Johnson O'Connor Foundation [aol.com]. I didn't do this test myself but my wife and some other people I know found it quite useful.
Most of all give yourself time. I extended my Ph.D. by more than a year to just try out different things and resolve these issues before going on. I should have done that before the PhD. but better late than never! So be warned that blindly going to grad school is not going to solve your problems.
Hope that helps.
p.s. I am very glad that this topic was brought up on slashdot. I find some of the posts very helpful for my own situation too.
Re:Become who you were... (Score:2, Insightful)
As of late I've been forcing myself to get out a little more and look for fun things to do. It does seem to help a lot, too. After all, one can't forget about the old saying "All work and no play..."
We've all been here! (Score:2, Insightful)
Maybe it's NOT for you. Be open to the idea. (Score:3, Insightful)
I got so depressed I almost dropped out of school. Came pretty close, but it was my last year so I finished up. Spent two years after that partying, relaxing, getting fed up with pizza delivery and waiting tables, and trying to figure out how I would be happy spending the rest of my life. C'mon, you don't know yourself when you're 17 or 18 and go to college. You don't know what you'll like. Don't think you have to justify the money spent on school by throwing the whole rest of your life away on something you don't like.
You don't have to lose your love of the subject. I'm still transfixed by beautiful buildings and spaces. But you may not be cut out for a life working in what you love. Sucks.... but it's very possible. I decided on programming (always been interested in computers but never really followed up on it) went to CLC for a bit and discovered that I had a strong natural talent for coding. My mind's just good at it. I don't love it per se, but I like being good at what I do.
So..... take some of those silly aptitude tests. Be open to other possibilities. A CS background is very helpful in a ton of areas.
Yes! Listen to this man... (Score:5, Insightful)
Listen to this guy; he's smart.
I have been involved in recruitment for companies in the past, and I have seen the total disregard for being reasonable often exhibited by managers (even good ones, if they are just being hassled about interviews when they have better things to do -- like their job). Amongst other things, I have spoken to a number of people who had dropped out part-way through a CS degree that was "boring them" or "not teaching them anything". There were some prima donnas who had a rude awakening coming to them, but several of them were obviously quite bright and just genuinely not finding much to keep them interested. None of them ever got an interview, even with my recommendation, because the view of others higher up the tree was that if they were really that bright, they'd have stayed on and finished the course.
As for taking a break, I agree it can be useful, but be careful not to stray too far from the CS path. If you do, it's going to be hard to get back in if you ever want to; knowledge dates faster in our industry than just about everywhere else. Time out of the loop could seriously count against you when you come to applying for jobs.
I know how depressing academic courses can be; I used to love maths, but by the end of three years studying nothing else, I was getting seriously depressed. Now that I've finished my formal studies, and a CS diploma afterwards that gave me much the same feeling at the end, I actually find myself interested in the subjects again. Without the pressure -- "you must do everything on this syllabus, and you haven't got time to do much else" -- it's a different world. I've actually found myself going back to read notes on some of the more interesting courses I did -- things I barely looked at way back then, and never did exams on -- and I do it purely out of interest. Now I'm not studying it just to answer the next problem sheet, it's a totally different feeling. Keep the faith.
Same Predicament (Score:2, Insightful)
That is a quote that I have taken to heart. I am in the same predicament as many of you out there. Before coming to college, I expected to shine in the spotlight. However, now as a Junior at a prestigious university, I'm pulling a 3.0 GPA and ~3.2 CS GPA. After the first year, I was totally disenchanted by the whole idea.
One major issue that I have found is that universities focus quite highly on theory, rather than implementation. In the long run, this is a better method of teaching, but for the short term, it is quite boring at times. Unlike other people in the CS department, I have a slight advantage in that I have learned the implementation before learning the theory from the years of part time jobs and side projects.
One thing that you must remember is that CS stands for Computer Science, that is IT IS A SCIENCE. Much of what computer science is is to guide you towards a research position.
Again, that quote by Mark Twain has helped me get through this. To me, school is just a process that I have to get through. However, it only fulfills part of my "entire" education. The rest of my education, I get on the internet, through reading technews, white papers, and slashdot (sorry..had to say it). I also focus a lot of my energy on my own projects and enhancing my knowledge in the latest technology and/or programming language. My own personal website (www.johnia.com [johnia.com], shameless promotion) is my own testbed to test out new technology and to demonstrate my CS knowledge. [In fact, I have been given job offers just by showing interviewers this website].
So what I would recommend is that, school is important, but not as important as your own education. Use your time wisely to set you apart from the rest of the CS dept. Also use your time wisely to enjoy what you like to do. Remember back to the days of when you created your first program and try to revive that again.
But I hope this helps. And don't worry, you're not the only one to feel this way.
The Career You Love (Score:2, Insightful)
I have always been one to say that it is important to do what you enjoy. I think most everyone who participates on
I really hate to draw an analogy with love and marriage as people seem to have such negative views of these things these days; however I am finding it hard to avoid. Imagine a couple who start seeing each other, fall in love, marry, and divorce at the first sign of trouble. Most people would say that what they showed was not love. People, even those who are in love, can really feel very negative things for each other at times. They are certainly not feeling that gushy feeling that they had when the first stated out. In these times it is their determination and dedication that gets them through.
So, it has not been an entirely smooth road to this career I love. I am flawed. I simply can not do something forever with machine like determination without loosing a little of the emotional oomph that motivated me in the beginning. All kinds of things get in the way. Life happens. The world happens. All these things impact on my motivation and attitude. But, for the career I love, I can not give up. And, in the end, I hope the good, satisfying times outweigh the trying ones.
You have to decide if you really did enjoy what you were doing and are suffering from burn-out. In which case, some perseverance is in order. Many people have posted suggestions about other fresh ways to approach your career. (game programming, for example) If you really think it is a bad match, that you should really have never approached it seriously as a career, you really should consider other career options.
But you are the only one that can make this evaluation. You can ask opinions of people and get their input. But, in the end, you have to do what you think is appropriate.
And don't believe for a minute that there is a right/wrong answer. There are many careers that can potentially make you happy. There is no reason to believe that you were built for only one. You are who you are. You might be programmer Cliff, or Dr. Cliff or whatever you decide to dedicate yourself to doing. But, in the end, you are not your job. You are you. Your job is just something you do.
But... if you ever want to be great at what you do... I mean really great... it takes really hard work. Work that will probably stress you terribly no matter how much you love it. So don't throw in the towel just because you are tired. Love is an active thing. It doesn't just happen. You have to make it happen.
Elucid
Re:Hackers. (Score:3, Insightful)
take a break (Score:2, Insightful)
get a mentor to help you work on what you really enjoy.
if all else fails, consider a related field that can still use your computer experience. what about librarianship. don't laugh - a lot of people are finding that the kind of knowledge you require to be a librarian is closely related to computing.
there are lots of positions out there as systems librarians, implementing and developing computer systems that directly help people that you can see instead of working in a computer company where you may never see the people that your product is designed to help.
www.blisspix.net
Re:Fall in love! (Score:2, Insightful)
Save yourself the emotional roller-coaster. If you wanna get laid, just pay for it.
Switch majors! (Score:3, Insightful)
About 3 years into my computer science major at Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo, I realized I just wasn't having any fun any more. The coding was allright, but the ridiculous and unnecessary support courses like chemistry and advanced calculus were killing me. What's more, having spent several summers in IT work, I knew that the job awaiting my graduation wasn't likely to be much better.
So, I talked to some professors and my CSC advisor. They asked what else I enjoyed doing, and after a bit of thought, I related that I'd always really enjoyed reading. "Why not try for an English major?"
A short struggle with the administration later (side note: Cal Poly's policy of "you damn well better know what you want to do with the rest of your life WHEN YOU ARRIVE!" sucks major ass), I was an English major. I show up to my first class, and our first assignment is to read Beroul's version of the Tristan and Isolde legend.
I couldn't believe it. No advanced calculations, no hyper-complex snippets of useless code, no lengthy excersizes to learn environment-specific skills that I'd likely never use. Just curl up with a good book, and enjoy. I was in heaven; it took all of one week to figure if I'd made the wrong choice. Smooth sailing from there.
Now, I know this isn't the choice for everyone. But even those with computers on the brain headed for a career in Silicon Valley might consider my path. Having spoken with many people, both at the college and in the industry, an English major is actually a plus with technical jobs. Anyone with a reasonable level of intelligence can learn how to use a program or language on their own in a matter of weeks, really. But the ability to communicate intelligently on paper is a truly unique skill among engineers, and one that will make your application stand out.
Anyway, I'll stop this post here, as I'm about to sit back and relax with several choice selections from Chaucer's earlier works in Middle English. Good luck with your dilemna, and remember: your major doesn't always have to coincide directly with your career to be useful.
I realize nobody will read this but.. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Go do something else, maybe (Score:2, Insightful)
As unAmerican an idea as it is, you CAN take a job that pays well that you don't necessarily love that allows you to work a 40 hour week. And be perfectly happy.
The problems with a job you don't like come when you spend so high a percentage of your waking time (16 hrs x 7 days = 112 hours awake) doing it that you become your job. Of -course- you need to like something you spend half your waking time dealing with. You can also use a not-so-well-enjoyed job that requires only a third of your waking time to fund the fun you have in your copious free time.
Your mileage may vary.
See Shrink... (Score:3, Insightful)
IANAP But, you sound like you are suffering from depression. You MUST talk to someone about that. You also have to ask your self WHY you
rate yourself so much on grades? A 3.0 (out of 4.0) undergraduate GPA in CS is pretty damn good. Also, grades in CS don't have anything to do with how good a developer you can be. (Oh, yeah, all those off by one errors? You have those because as a senior in CS you are a stone cold newby at programming. You'll get past those pretty soon.)
On the other hand, I understand what you are saying. I started college as a history major (planning to be a Lawyer) that got boring, so I changed to English (creative writing), and then to CS.... Well written code is a lot like well written poetry. Doing what you like is the most important thing.
On the third hand, you might just not be cut out
for a life as a developer. A LOT of talented people went into CS in the late '60s, the early '80s, and the late '90s because that was where
they could make the most money. Then they found
out that developing code was like doing home work
all day long and they hated it. Most of those people stay in the field for less than 5 years
and nobody misses them. And, they are a lot happier doing whatever it is they wind up doing.
So, First, talk to a shrink. Get some perspective.
Then think about where you are headed.
Stonewolf
P.S.
My salary history looks like a saw tooth wave. It goes up for about 10 years, then goes backwards in a short sharp hop, and repeat. Right now my income has dropped to zero. Looks like I have a good chance of geting up to 50% of what I was making last month.
Play Around (Score:2, Insightful)
That said, I'll echo some of the other posts in suggesting you explore some other areas. I had a similar crisis my senior year and took Intellectual History, Abnormal Psych, design, and some other stuff. I ended up back on the same path, but with a far better idea of why I was there and where I wanted to go with it.
Just setting the record straight (Score:3, Insightful)
I wasn't referring to a personal friend. The people in question were prospective employees -- students and recent grads/early finishers -- I had met while attending a recruitment event on behalf of my employer. One was so obviously talented that I personally recommended that he be interviewed, in spite of not finishing his course. He wasn't.
Management ruled him out immediately on the basis of the lack of degree. There were plenty of other candidates who had them, and they weren't about to stretch scarce interview resources to check out someone who didn't. There was no "not putting themselves on the line" about it; the lack of degree stopped them getting further in the recruitment process, end of story.
Some employers will see past the lack of paperwork, sure. You were lucky enough to find one. My original point was simply that for many employers, even otherwise good ones, you will be File 13'd before they even read the rest of your CV if you don't have a university degree.
In that light, it would be foolish for most people to give up a course partway through the final year. You'd have to really be suffering, and it sounds as though the original poster was just feeling a bit tired out, which happens to many good people as they go through uni studying the same subject for several years. But for many people, this feeling passes, often as soon as you've finished your course and the pressure lifts.
Make it fun! (Score:2, Insightful)
Many advanced CS courses are trying to teach you a concept, and most profs give you leeway in how to implement that concept. Just because everybody else is writing the code in C does not mean you have to use C -- pick a different language, maybe one you've never used before. The assignment may be mind numbingly boring in a language that you already know, but it becomes an interesting challenge in a new language -- and you personally get something out of the class that nobody else did.
I used this approach and it definitely changed the way I felt about school.
If you can't make school fun, build something fun on your own.
- Is there something cool that you have heard about but never tried?
- Is there some library/function/module that you have used, that is just a "black box" (give it input, magic happens, and something different comes out) Have you ever wondered how the magic happens? Try implementing it yourself!
- Do you have your own website? If not, build one, if you dohave one, make it better! (it helps if you are passionate about whatever the subject is). HTML is boring -- Learn how to make things interactive with CGI or Flash
- Have you set up a Linux server or an Apache server or an Oracle server? Try it!
If you pick the topic, you are your own boss -- you can go as deeply into one topic as you want, or quickly move on to something else. This gives you a chance to try different things to help you narrow down your career choices. But try to pick topics that will help you in the "real world" -- You can spend days generating an alien landscape with a ray-tracing program, but will that help you get a job that you will like?(witty sig needed)