Available, Affordable Gas/Electric Hybrid Vehicles? 45
An Anonymous Coward asks: "For those of us with aging vehicles, what hybrid gas/electric car models are out for 2002 and what will come out for 2003?" I have to admit, looking for vehicles such as these will be a lot easier to find than those that run on vegetable oil, but it would be nice to see more vehicles relying less on unleaded petrol or diesel.
As an owner (Score:4, Informative)
As far as maintenance goes, I have found that I can get great deals on routince stuff. My dealership offered me a the same card as for other cars with 10 oil changes for $100. Because the car uses special oil and it is extra work to take off the wind screens under the car to change the oil, the changes can cost up to $50.
The other big expense will be replacing the batteries when they wear out. They are designed to last about half the life of the car and need to be replaced at about 80,000 miles. That should run about $5000.
In the end you are paying a bit of a premium for a hybrid, but you may find, as I did, that it is worth it. I can go 700 miles on a 10 gallon tank of gas. I also love explaining the tech features of my car. Everybody that sees it asks about it.
I call my car "The FJM". When I first got it, I went out to lunch at the local sandwich shop. There was construction on the street outside and it was hard to get around and into the parking lot. As a result, the parking lot was mostly empty. The sandwich shop hand unusually few customers. I parked my hybrid in the middle of the lot (no other cars around it at all) and went in to pick up lunch. The only other people in the shop we a couple of painters. Total redneck hicks. Beards, crooked teeth, the works. They got their sandwiches just before I did and I walked out the door just behind them. The first thing they saw when you walked out was a profile view of my car with little antenna an the roof and the wheel covers over the back tires. (Very sleek looking I think. ;-) As soon as they saw it, they stopped so abrubtly I just about ran into them. They stared for a couple seconds and then one of them put his hands on his hips and then crowed, "What the FUCK is that? A fuckin' Jetson mobile?". I showed them around the car, I don't think they were so keen on it, but I really liked the name they gave it.
Re:As an owner (Score:1)
Also, how long is the warranty?
I wrote a letter to VW (because I love VW's), and they told me that they have no plans to release a hybrid. I was very dissapointed. Anyways, I'm considering a hybrid for my next vehicle.
Re:As an owner (Score:2)
Re:As an owner (Score:2)
Hybrid:
Conventional:
So I pay $5000 in batteries every 80000 miles, assuming the hybrid uses no gas (!). Or I pay $5000 in gasoline costs every 60000 miles by going conventional.
I think hybrids are cool, but could someone explain to me where the huge cost savings is, again?
(Ah, I see, you sell the hybrid at 79,000 miles, and you buy a new one every few years. Yeah, that's way more eco-friendly than regular maintenance and keeping your old beater running for 10-12 years ;-)
Re:As an owner (Score:2)
I don't think the people buying these cars are doing it because they want to save money. They are buying them because they want to reduce the amount of fuel that they use and/or the amount of pollution they generate. In most cases, these or pure electric cars aren't that cheap to buy or operate. Some states will give the owners of these cars a tax break because they are more expensive than a normal car.
While I like the technology behind them, I wouldn't pay the extra money for them no matter how eco-friendly they are. I'd rather have a TDI Jetta, but will stick with my old econobox. It's paid for, still runs ok and gets about 35mpg.
How about an SUV? (Score:3, Informative)
Its not quite as impressive as the Honda Insight since its so much bigger, but it will get 40 MPG (combined city and highway) and have a range of around 500 miles on a tank of gas. The price is expected to increase by about 3k over its current 18k base rate for the hybrid model. And its based on a car/unibody chassis so you wont flip over if someone breathes on you. More details are here [consumerguide.com].
Re:How about an SUV? (Score:2)
its based on a car/unibody chassis so you wont flip over if someone breathes on you.
Actually this is bad. Car chassis are common in SUVs because they're light, hence require less engine power and thus less gas to get from point A to point B. The problem is you have a light chassis with a big tall SUV body on it -- which means high center of gravity. This is why SUVs are notorious for rolling, and all the marketing money in the world can't change how physics works.
SUVs with truck chassis are not as common, but are out there. They're heavy-bottomed, which makes them less prone to rollover and also sturdier in general (this is a chassis built to support a body used to haul stuff, after all), but they need more power, more gas, and thus more money.
If you really want a stable, roomy vehicle you can haul stuff around in, get a king-cab pickup, or get a light pickup and put a camper cap on it. With care and a little outlay for some furnishing, that can be a nice ride for passengers at a much more reasonable price than the SUVs that all the crazed soccer moms here in Northern Virginia drive.
(I swear, they must be snorting meth to keep up or something, the way they zip in and out of lanes with all of SIX INCHES OF CLEARANCE while carrying nine kids in the back.)
Re:How about an SUV? (Score:2)
That's what the Kia Sportage is, pretty much. It's got a near stock drivetrain and frame from a small pickup (Nissan? A Japanese company, I know), and a redesigned exterior that wraps the whole vehicle. The exterior was designed by Ford and the suspension was originally designed by Lotus engineers. Kia as a company was around for years, making other people's cars, and a variant of the Sportage was sold for years outside of America. The early Sephia (the sedan) sucked eggs (like any other first year model by any company), but I've been happy with my Sportage.
I got it to go to Conventions, SCA events and to carry around a couple of trunks full of costumes for Rocky Horror or full of musical insturments for a gig. It gets really quite good gas milage on the highway - upper 30s, and can plow though a sand filled road in the back of a campsite (it's a 2x4 EX, power everything but no 4x4). A very practical vehicle for someone who wants a closed truck on weekends, and a car on weekdays.
The frequently cited "bad towing" of hybrid cars worries me - for SCA events, I'll take the back seat out and pack the entire thing full of food, ice, camping gear, heavy iron bells, strap a pavillion to the roof, etc. I seriously load the thing, and it takes it. I wonder how a hybrid would do under the circumstances.
--
Evan
Re:How about an SUV? (Score:2)
You are right that the car chassis isn't that important for rollover I think, its really just that the small SUVs aren't as tall. The car chassis makes them better for both vehicles in an accident though, in terms of crushing.
By the way, trucks have one of the worst rollover rates. This is a combination of them being tallish, and the characteristics of the average driver of pickups (as in, they drive more recklessly).
Toyota Prius (Score:1, Informative)
Check out Toyota's Prius website here [toyota.com]
Toyota Prius (Score:5, Interesting)
Its a cool car. The only way someone can tell if its electric is by noticing the car often does not make any noise when driving by. Except for the faint singing from the inverters that drive the car and charge the battery from braking. Did I mention the car is very quiet? When tooling around the city, the most noticeable thing you can hear is the fine gravel on the asphalt crunching under the tires.
A computer screen graphs what kind of energy the car is using at the moment and what kind of milage it is getting. With light effort, 80mpg (or more!) can often be achieved for a trip across town. Its a very smooth ride. On the highway with the traffic, the milage is much less, often dropping to about 45mpg. The gas savings could pay for this car very quickly.
How fast does it go? Acceleration is very good as cars go due to its variable speed transmission. Leaving a stop sign is very smooth and brisk without any jerking commmon with usual automatic or manual transmissions. Top speed may be just over 100mph. I remember reading a magazine (Road and Track?) documented a top speed of 102.
Since it is an "experimental" car, Toyota pays for all service for 4 years. The batteries have a 10 year warranty. We have had no problems with it yet, except for driving over debris from an accident, slashing a rear tire.
Oh, the stereo is awesome. Imagine hearing every faint noise during a concert when driving.
The air conditioner was great during the blistering summer. It will start the engine when the cooling system needs some fresh liquid freon (or whatever they use these days.)
Oh, you'll rarely notice when the engine starts to charge the battery. The engine seems to be well insulated from noise and vibration and starts almost instantly.
The way the engine-battery way this car works is pretty cool. When you put the key in, you start it like a normal car, but it tops off the batteries. I suppose you could run out of gas and just run on the batteries too. Perhaps you could disconnect the batteries and just run off the engine. Pressing on the gas in nuetral just starts the engine and revs it up. It can behave and act just like the normal cars we are used to. Very friendly operation.
Everyone needs to get one of these. Why people continue to buy cars that have the same room inside and gas milage of 30mpg or less is beyond my understanding. Yes, the interior has plenty of room for my step dad who weighs over 300lbs.
Re:Toyota Prius (Score:2)
What's the towing capacity on one of these things?
Re:Toyota Prius (Score:4, Informative)
The drawbacks are that you can't really tow anything with it, the specialty low rolling resistance tires are hard to find, there are scattered reports of premature paint chipping, and if you break down in the boonies Joe's Garage doesn't have a chance of fixing it. And you have to wait at least four months to get one.
There's a ton of good real world information on http://groups.yahoo.com/toyotaprius, free registration required.
2002 should see a hybrid Honda Civic. 2003 may be the lanuch of the hybrid Dodge Ram, with the nifty feature of AC outlets so you can use your truck as a construction-site generator.
Re:Toyota Prius (Score:2)
As far as repairing the car, the electric drive is very similar to the electric forklifts I repair. If anyone needs a technician to work on one of these things, I start at $30.00 an hour. hehe...
Re:Toyota Prius (Score:1)
Its pretty much the same car as a Toyota Echo, but with some interesting guts inside to make it run.
Well, no. It certainly resembles the Echo, but put 'em side-by-side and the differences are clear. For one, the Prius is MUCH wider... the Echo is so high-and-narrow that it looks like it'll blow over if you breath on it. Fit, finish and accoutrements are appropriate for a $30K car, despite the $20K price. And, of course, what goes on under the hood bears no resemblance to the guts of the Echo; the gasoline engine comes from the same family, but the continuously variable automatic transmission, electric motor, batteries, control hardware and all the rest make it totally, utterly different (suggestion: do NOT fiddle with any of the orange cables under the hood. They carry 500V at a substantial current!).
I suppose you could run out of gas and just run on the batteries too. Perhaps you could disconnect the batteries and just run off the engine.
Nope. Control circuitry won't permit it. You run out of gas, you call a tow truck. And disconnecting the batteries is a bad, BAD idea (see the orange cable comment above). And why in God's name would you want to?
The thing feels almost exactly like a mid-sized conventional vehicle, with the exception of the brakes... they're very "grabby", presumably due to the regenerative hardware built into the car. The gas engine cuts in and out as appropriate; you don't need to worry about it (and, indeed, you can't control it in any way). At rest the gas engine stops entirely; the car runs entirely on electric power until it hits about 15 MPH, at which point the gas engine kicks in. Once you're moving, he control hardware distributes power between the gas and electric engines as it sees fit, and automatically recharges the battery on the fly. I've never seen the battery level indicator even budge.
Toyota has gone to great lengths to make this thing feel like a conventional vehicle. They even rigged it so that the car "creeps" forward from a dead stop just like a conventional automatic transmission would... despite the fact that the car isn't idling.
As noted above, it's VERY quiet, with or without the gas engine running. Transition from electric-only to mixed mode is almost imperceptible.
What's wrong? Well, the high-pressure tires don't take rough roads too well... with a full load (four XL-sized adults) it gets downright uncomfortable on poorly maintained pavement. And about those tires... they're an odd size, and tricky to find. I had to replace a flat (ran over fresh glass and metal when an accident happened right in front of me), and it took a bunch of phone calls to find a tire dealer in the Boston area who stocked them. Dealer's weren't much help... one didn't stock any tires at all, and another could only supply a generic replacement. Styling is sort of dull... but then, that's probably intentional; Toyota wants people to think that this is just another car, not a science experiment. And, finally, that gee-whiz video display gets tiresome and distracting very quickly.
Everything else is great. I get comfort, 500 miles on a tank of unleaded, good pickup, and the satisfaction of seeing the expression on the face of the gas station attendant as the car glides noiselessly up to the pump. When I trade in my other car, I'm seriously thinking of buying a second Prius.
--Larry
Re:Toyota Prius (Score:2)
Now that is interesting. The high cost of battery replacement is the potential bug that makes hybrids a problem. (And the performance of the batteries in winter in cold climates.)
I've test-driven a Prius, and it rocks. The high-tech display is a great example of user interface design -- by giving the user continual feedback on mileage, users tend to adjust their driving habits to maximize the MPG readout -- a classic example of a UI that lends itself to a desired outcome, namely fuel-efficient driving habits that apply to any sort of vehicle.
Re:Toyota Prius (Score:2)
> The gas savings could pay for this car very quickly.
Only if you were planning on buying a new car anyway. My car (Subaru L-series) cost £750. It's nothing like as cool as a new Prius, but it's not a complete mess like my £250 cars (UK Ford Escort Mk2) were. My wife's Ka is newer (£3000), but that's still a lot of gas to save.
Toyota (Score:3, Informative)
Estima minivan [toyota.com]
Converting existing vehicles (Score:3, Informative)
On a tangentially related topic, for the slightly eccentric there's info on "performance" electric vehicles here [nedra.com]. The world record holder's page is here [asu.edu]. 8.801 seconds in the quarter on batteries, and the baby pulls 1200 amps. Amazing.
- Freed
What do you need (Score:1, Offtopic)
Is an electric car for you? Maybe, maybe not.
If you do a lot of hiway driving, than a VW TDI will get better milage, and be cheaper.
If you want to screw OPEC, (a nobel cause) than many cars come with E-85 engines. 85% ethanol, 15% gasoline. A little more expensive, but not too bad, and often less than an electric equivelent. Everyone getting a new car that runs on gas should insist on this option, it doens't cost much more, and you can run on regular gas if you need to.
Bicycle. For in-town transportation of short distances an electric car comes into it's element. A bike will work just as well in most of those cases. Cheap enough that you can have it with anouther vechical. Not comfortable in bad weather, and hard to haul gear. Everyone should own and use one when they are an option. When distances are short, then the difference in time of driving vs rideing is insignificant.
Electirc car. Great for city driving. For hiway driving they end up just being heavier and thus get worse milage. Because of the weight of batteries you often can't haul a lot of gear. Excellent choice for those who only have to go a few miles.
Conversions. Do it yourself mostly, but I'm sure there are shops to do this. Ford sells rangers without engines, and I think Chevy sells the S10 the same. Take off the bed and put in a few grand worth of batteries, drop an electric moter in where the engine would be (the transmission comes with), connect the gas pedel to a controler and you are set. You can get a fairly good range, and recharge overnight (be sure to get the reduced nighttime rates from your power company). Good for commuting to work (short distances) with tools - carpenters and the like. Not enough range to drive all day, but enough for normal driving. I've considered this myself.
Airplane. Appears more expensive, but you go over the traffic jams, instead of ideling in them. You can travel 100 mph legally (depending on the plane, some top out at 45, others will go 600, 100 is a good round number that the average person could afford to achive). Useless if it is 3 miles to work, but if you need to cross the city you might save fuel.
Re:What do you need (Score:2)
Wrong. There's no such thing as bad weather. Just bad clothing. Electric clothing takes a few minutes to put on, but well worth it. Just seconds after plugging it in during 20 degree weather, you are guaranteed to feel like a toasted cheese sandwich.
I ride my motorcycle through the freezing weather whilst most are driving their cars waiting for their heaters to warm up. Snow, ice? You would be surprised. Its interesting to see them look at me like I'm nuts when I can see their breath in their cars as their frozen hands attempt to grasp the dangerous cup of coffee.
Re:What do you need (Score:1)
How do you find driving on ice and snow with your motorcycle? I've always been under the impression that it would be very hard to control a motorcycle with a lot of ice on the roads (controlling a car without studded tires is tough on really icy roads, but I run little risk of winding up on the ground beneath my car when that happens).
Re:What do you need (Score:2)
time flys, planes crash (Score:1)
No matter how fast you can fly, it will not help when everywhere becomes a no-fly-zone.
Re: bikes in bad weather (Score:2)
Once you get riding a bike, even in foul, cold weather, keep in mind that the two biggest muscles in your body are pumping away to move you. It warms you up in a hurry. Even on really cold mornings (zero degrees F), I had to slow down to avoid breaking a sweat. Most winter clothing breathes less than lighter clothing, so I was actually hotter when I wore warmer clothes (which makes sense), but in colder weather.
Good clothing really makes the difference, but with goretex, and zip-off goretex pants, you can ride in anything. Biggest nuisance and threat in bad weather are: drivers of autos, drivers who refuse to scrape their windows, unplowed shoulders.
I think modern tanks have better visibility through their little periscopes than most motorists in winter.
Impressions (Score:1)
I've test-driven an Insight, and have ridden in a Prius.
The Insight was very much the sporty two-seater. I noted that the electric boost gauge on the dash acted much like a turbo boost gauge, except for no lag.
A colleague at work drives a Prius. I marvelled at how quiet it was at idle, until I saw the display on the dash. A taxi company here in Vancouver run Prius taxis. Haven't heard anything about them, though I see them whirring by every now and then.
My car is a 1986 VW Jetta. It's smooth, comfortable, and economical (about 6l/100km on the highway). I suspect it's also the last purely gas-engined car I'll ever own.
There's an active electric vehicle club [veva.bc.ca] in Vancouver. Lots of conversions, ranging from grotty to really nice.
...laura
Hybrid Honda Civics... (Score:3, Interesting)
The Prius is okay, but Toyota's hybrid system seems more complicated to me (it can drive gas only, electric only, or both instead of gas with electric assistance like the honda) and I'd shy away from it until it's a few years more mature and less expensive. Honda's CVT transmission has been in use on the Civic HX since 1996, so it's a little more time-tested, and the simpler IMA hybrid system will have several years of work on the Insight to back it up.
In short, it looks more practical and cheaper than the insight, simpler than the prius, and is identical outwardly to an existing, popular car. I would wait for this one. (in fact, I tried to, but my '89 wagon finally quit completely a year and a half too soon for me to get one.)
Re: Gas/Electric Hybirds... (Score:2)
One thing I wonder about is whether a hybrid would benefit from using the gas engine to bring the car up to speed, then using the electric motor to stay at cruising speed. In other words, the gas engine would directly drive the wheels (and the motor, which could act as a generator during this time to charge the batteries a bit as well), then at a certain speed would disengage via a clutch, allowing the motor to take over. The engine could run at a relatively low speed, just enough to get going, and perhaps shut down once up to speed and the electric has taken over. It could start up again when a full stop is reached.
A lot of current (and thus a lot of the energy used) is drawn by a motor going from a dead stop to running speed - but the running current is generally a lot less. Would a system like I described work, be practical, save anything? Has it already been done (I would almost have to believe it has)...?
Depends on which Hybrid system. (Score:2)
Honda's IMA hybrid system uses the gas engine all the time when the car is moving, and the electric motor as a "booster" when accelerating-- thus keeping the gas engine size smaller since not so much power is needed once rolling. There's never any "electric only" with Honda's IMA.
Somebody else is making a "through the road" hybrid SUV that powers 2 wheels gas and 2 wheels electric, rather than having a complicated transmission system to mix the power. Unfortunately, I've forgotten whose vehicle that is (Ford Escape, maybe?) I doubt there will be an "electric only" mode for the SUV, but I could be wrong. (who would want a low-horsepower rear-wheel-drive-only mode in their SUV?)
Re: Gas/Electric Hybirds... (Score:2)
As for electrics, they have no real relationship between speed and torque. (Horsepower is torque times RPM, btw.) Electric motors supply almost the same amount of torque at any speed, up to a point (inverse geometric). Gas engines supply more torque with more RPM, up to a point (hyerbolic). So, from a dead stop, it's more energy efficient to use the electrics to get going.
So, the most efficient thing is to use electric all the time, gas when charging gets low, or when extra power is needed, and to switch the gas engine (power source) on and off constantly to meet demands.
Several of the large ships use diesels to generate power, and then electric motors to drive the ship. Nuclear-powered carriers are an example (they have big backup diesels if the nuclear reactor goes offline).
Re: Gas/Electric Hybirds... (Score:2)
Several of the large ships use diesels to generate power, and then electric motors to drive the ship.
Locomotives do this too. They run the diesels at the optimum RPM to drive a generator. High torque electric motors then drive the wheels.
New design concepts... (Score:1)
To me, hybrid cars should be designed almost completely as electric cars, with an external interface to a charging system of some kind. That "charging system" is simply a source of electric power for charging batteries. This could then be anything you desire, ie: fuel cells, gas engine, diesel engine, etc.
The efficiency of eletric motors is much higher than gasoline engines throughout their entire operating range, and can provide smooth acceleration over a large range, avoiding the need for any transmission (typically, a single reduction drive will do). In fact, eletric engines are small enough and have high enough power densities that it is very feasible to have 4 small motors (one at each tire) to drive the wheels independently. In this way, differentials and full width axles are also avoided (the work of a differential being done in software instead). Plus, this configuration allows for a very powerful all-wheel drive type system.
To make such a vehicle a hybrid, let the "charging system" be a traditional ultra-low emission gasoline/deisel engine, that is fine tuned to run at one specific RPM and power output for maximum fuel efficieny. This motor's sole task is to recharge batteries, and need only be capable of providing enough power to keep the batteries charged when the car is sustaining a given top speed.
Most cars have hugely larges engines, where the full power output is only ever used in acceleration. By having the engine only act as a charger, you only need roughly 1/4 the horsepower for your typical car (ie: a 20 kW engine would be MORE than sufficient). The surges of power needed by the electric motors are handled by the battery, which is recharged while cruising and idling.
Rough calculations show that we should eventually be able to acheive 80+ mpg in such a configuration. In fact, there is a completely electric sports-car (built for doing the 1/4 mile in 13s!) called a tZero [acpropulsion.com] that takes this approach. You can buy an external engine for recharging the batteries, and it achieves a net fuel economy of around 40MPG (keep in mind this is purely a high performance sports car).
Also, a similar system using a diesel engine should get even better mileage, as diesel engines have a higher Carnot cycle efficieny.
As things progress even further, instead of using an ICE/generator system, we can move to pure thermal->electricity systems, such as ultra efficient Magneto-hydrodynamic generators...
Sorry for the rant, but I think that there are a lot of cool things that could be done with hybrid cars if people would invest a little more time and money...
Re:New design concepts... (Score:1)
tzero questions (Score:1)
Re:tzero questions (Score:1)
The paper talks about a trailer mounted generator they designed that is hooked up to to the tZero to give it a much extended range over it's pure electric performance. They did some neat stuff to make the car drive the same as a car without a trailer (ie: for backing up!), and the trailer is actually rigidly attached with steerable wheels (linked to the cars steering). Neat concept... could be extended to be use fuel cells or anything else...
Re:long term ownership questions (Score:1)
Also, the tires are a specially made low-rolling-resistance tire, and cost a little more (and are harder to find). I'm not sure about the tire radius and bolt pattern, but in a pinch there may be standard tires that'll fit...
The brakes are just plain normal brakes.... the regenerative braking doesn't actually consist of any parts at the wheel... to do regenerative braking, the current to the motor is cut, and it simply acts as a generator... it produces electricity as it spins, but this creates a force on the motor that causes it's spinning to slow down... via the drive to the tires, this makes your tires slow down... typically, regenerative braking is done by releasing the "gas" pedal, and normal brakes still exist for quick stopping (regenerative braking doesn't give huge braking power.... it's good for slowing down while cruising and such...)