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Music Media

Where are the non-SDMI MP3 Players? 550

alen asks: "I'm in the market for an MP3 player. I've been looking at various models and they all seem to be SDMI ready or compliant. Looking at customer reviews on Amazon confirms this as you'll find at least one person saying you can't transfer the music from the MP3 player to your PC. At least on the newer players you do." I've been resisting the urge to get an MP3 player for precisely this reason, opting to use my laptop and a cassette adaptor for those long driving trips, but this is hardly affordable or efficient. Handhelds might work, but memory is a problem here. Are there any players out there that haven't forgotten the "fair" part in "fair-use"?

"So far I have narrowed my search to 3 choices. I want it to sound very good and be able to play music encoded at 128kb or higher.

The Rio Volt 250 is a CD based player so the SDMI thing doesn't really apply. The Creative Labs Nomad II" proudly displays this as a feature. The Samsung Yepp doesn't use SDMI, but something called SecuMax as stated in the Nomad II technical specs on Amazon. And this little tid bit on the Samsung Yepp homepage confirms that SecuMax is just like SDMI.

Now I'm not looking to download any illegal music from the Internet. I simply want to listen to my CD collection on the train to work or while working out. And there is freely downloadable music out there. If I were to download a song at work or a friend's house, put it in my MP3 player I then wouldn't be able to transfer it back to my PC at home to add to my collection. Where is 'fair use' when the artist is giving away their music for free? And I don't have the link, but what of the recent surges in so called 'secure' CD's that one can't rip into MP3's? Where is the 'fair use' there? Or are we supposed to purchase multiple copies of the same music in different formats?"

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Where are the non-SDMI MP3 Players?

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  • iPod? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by jspectre ( 102549 ) on Tuesday November 27, 2001 @01:00PM (#2619567) Journal
    Anther point for the iPod.. No nasty copy-protection. :-)
  • Memory on handhelds (Score:2, Interesting)

    by bnatale ( 532324 ) on Tuesday November 27, 2001 @01:01PM (#2619577)
    Memory is not a problem with handhelds. Get one that uses compact flash cards and you even can use a 1GB IBM Microdrive. I use an iPAQ with a microdrive as mp3 player and it works great. The only problem is the size and the battery.
  • by elmegil ( 12001 ) on Tuesday November 27, 2001 @01:05PM (#2619611) Homepage Journal
    "Fair Use" in the context of copyright has a pretty specific meaning. It has to do with use of sections of a copyrighted work for review purposes and for educational purposes (among others, I make no claim to being complete in my description). But it has nothing to do with "that's not fair" as both the poster and the editor seem to believe.

    C'mon people, we won't be taken seriously if we can't even learn the jargon.

  • Re:archos jukebox (Score:2, Interesting)

    by alek202 ( 462912 ) on Tuesday November 27, 2001 @01:09PM (#2619642) Homepage
    Altough the software still has a few minor bugs, it is a very good box (don't forget you get a *real* usb hard drive for your money also). I have the Archos Jukebox Recorder [archos.com] which I primarly use for professional audio recording (yes, that's right, we use it to create live cuts of our DJ sets at various clubs). At the studio [monday-rec.com], I just plug the recorder into the workstation, and upload the realtime-encoded MP3s to the web. Unfortunately, the Jukebox Recorder only does VBR encoding, but with around 170kbps it is sufficent.

    Cheers,
    Timo
  • C'mon people, we won't be taken seriously if we can't even learn the jargon.

    Frag the jargon.. they'll take us seriously when we don't buy their SDMI 'enhanced' crap and instead go around/through them.

    There is no encryption that cannot be broken

    There is no hardware that cannot be hacked

    But there is no way to remove or restrain my desire to exercise the rights guaranteed to a U.S. citizen under the U.S. Constitution - and Fair Use does mean the ability for me to make a back-up copy of the material I have lawfully purchased. Too bad for the corps if it is in a format they do not approve of.

  • Nomad Jukebox (Score:2, Interesting)

    by JK Flip Flop ( 209163 ) on Tuesday November 27, 2001 @01:18PM (#2619718)
    You can copy mp3s back to a system with the latest firmware for the Nomad Jukebox.
  • by Paladin128 ( 203968 ) <aaron.traas@org> on Tuesday November 27, 2001 @01:18PM (#2619728) Homepage
    There are some problems with the CD option. I personally want a solid state option, because I do not want the damn thing to skip when I'm working out.

    The CD option is great if you have a burner and just need it for your daily commute. This is not at all an option for highly-active people, however. The solid state ones are smaller, more rugged, and skip-free.
  • by F250SuperDuty ( 65363 ) on Tuesday November 27, 2001 @01:19PM (#2619735) Homepage

    In addition to the subject at hand--are there any recomendations for car-based mp3 head units?
    The Empeg was quite nice--but expensive. Aiwa makes a unit [aiwa.com] that plays MP3's from
    CD-R's, but I've heard horrors about it. Has anyone had experience with an mp3 head unit that
    isn't rumoured to suck?

    -Kris

  • by Sylistron ( 122473 ) on Tuesday November 27, 2001 @01:22PM (#2619753) Homepage
    I have a usb card reader that allows a SmartMedia to be used as a file system. I copy the files onto that card and slide the card into the nomad. I use the card reader for my camera as well. It's a great solution.
  • by Lawmeister ( 201552 ) on Tuesday November 27, 2001 @01:27PM (#2619789) Homepage
    Nomad v1 mp3 player and a few 32mb flash memory cards. It holds a total of 64MB and is completely SDMI free. With the replacable memory cards, you can have different genres of music for driving/working out etc.

    Additional features are an FM tuner and a voice recorder.

    Here's the link [ebay.com].

    And of course since they are a couple years old, you can pick them up cheap!
  • Iomega HipZip (Score:3, Interesting)

    by vsync64 ( 155958 ) <vsync@quadium.net> on Tuesday November 27, 2001 @01:28PM (#2619804) Homepage
    I'm pleased with my HipZip. Cost me ~$150, and for another $99 you can get the car accessory pack, which includes, among other things, a car charger, cassette adapter, and 4 extra disks. I think you can also get this stuff in a giant combo pack which is cheaper.

    The player itself is of good quality; it sounds great both on headphones and plugged into my car stereo. It includes an equalizer and a backlit display. Unfortunately, the OS itself is a bit spartan; there's no way to save the playlist through a power cycle, and the random play function resets itself on every powerup. I suspect these issues may be resolved with a newer version of Dadio [iobjects.com], and for now I just randomize the playlist before loading it onto the player, as tracks are sorted in load order.

    There are several interesting features of this player. The first is that it takes Iomega's 40MB Clik! (now Pocket Zip) disks, which run about $10 each retail. It acts as an ordinary USB mass storage device, which means you can copy any files to/from it without restriction, and also use it to exchange ordinary data files. (Unfortunately, as always with Win98, you can't just plug in the player and copy files; you have to install the drivers first, despite its being a perfectly generic USB disk drive. Completely plug-and-play in Linux, though.)

    The 40MB size of the Clik! disks is a little annoying, but the ability to carry 5 or 6 of the disks around in the media wallet without significant expense makes up for that, and I'm able to store much more music (with the hassle of changing disks) than I was with my Rio 500 expanded to 128MB. Additionally (and this is the reason I bought the player), it will support Ogg Vorbis as soon as the format reaches 1.0. (There is a beta firmware that supports it now, but it won't play files encoded with >beta4.) Ogg Vorbis will let me easily degrade bitrates without re-encoding, and at 96kb/s .ogg I will be able to store quite a bit on 1 disk.

    One interesting problem: When hooked to the line-in of my car CD player [sounddomain.com], there is an audible hiss if I have it simultaneously plugged into the charger. As soon as I disconnect it from the charger, it disappears. I don't know if I wired the stereo strangely or what, because it's not there with headphones. Weird.

  • by Hobbex ( 41473 ) on Tuesday November 27, 2001 @01:30PM (#2619815)
    This shows the real problem we are in for: the enemy controls the hardware. We can always make our own software solutions, but as long as making hardware requires large scale investments we can be sure that it will be under their control. Hardware MP3 players are not the only place where you can see this, another example are the new CDs which cannot be read correctly by CD-ROMs - making a CD drive that ignores the broken error correction codes would be completely possible, but as futile as laws like the DMCA are against us, as well they seem to work (if they are even necessary) against hardware makers.

    This is why having hardware specific for each task, which is often discussed as something good, must be something we cannot allow to happen. Instead, we have to continue to ensure the existance of systems like PCs where things are done in software, which WE can control. We even have to look into moving more PC functionality into software, now that we have processors strong enough for it, as I worry that things like graphic accelerators and sound cards will be future platforms for entertainment industry UHT (User Hostile Technology). The more that is done in software, the more freedom is had by all.

    In the short term, it might still be possible to find dedicated MP3 players that are not UHT (such as the burned CD ones), but in the longer term I think handhelds with strong general purpose CPUs running Linux (preferably decoding OGG of course) is the only real choice. In the longest term, there is a real risk (see for example the "SS"SCA), that general purpose programmable hardware will simply not be allowed, and we will have to hope that an illegal underground market for hardware that is not user hostile will appear...
  • by iansmith ( 444117 ) on Tuesday November 27, 2001 @01:35PM (#2619854) Homepage
    I have been using a Jornada 540 series Pocket PC for a year now as an MP3 player, and recently upgraded to the 568.

    I get 12 hours of battery life playing MP3's and you can purchace 512 megabyte CF cards for it. Makes an *awesome* player, and can do videos as well as all the PDA stuff.

    A bit expensive, but a neat toy.

    --
    Ian
  • Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Tuesday November 27, 2001 @01:37PM (#2619874)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by Gigs ( 127327 ) on Tuesday November 27, 2001 @01:50PM (#2619946) Homepage Journal
    http://www.pjrc.com/tech/mp3/ [pjrc.com]

    Links to site on building your own custom built in hardware player. Check out the links to the other sites too.
  • Re:iPod? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by aozilla ( 133143 ) on Tuesday November 27, 2001 @01:53PM (#2619958) Homepage
    I guess the "finder flags" menu is an illegal circumvention device. :)
  • Re:archos jukebox (Score:5, Interesting)

    by toupsie ( 88295 ) on Tuesday November 27, 2001 @01:53PM (#2619959) Homepage
    I own an Archos Jukebox 6000 but just switched to an iPod. Its a good mp3 player however copying files via USB is like pulling teeth. It takes about 5 to 6 hours to fill up its 6 gig HD. My iPod only takes 12 minutes to fill up its 5 gig HD via firewire. Granted, the Archos is compatible with Linux and Windows which probably makes it more useful for most folks on Slashdot.
  • by Neil Watson ( 60859 ) on Tuesday November 27, 2001 @02:23PM (#2620128) Homepage
    Do any of these players read Ogg Vorvis music files?
  • Re:Rio 500 (Score:2, Interesting)

    by jspectre ( 102549 ) on Tuesday November 27, 2001 @02:31PM (#2620173) Journal

    [1] Hmm. I never have a problem with the switch on mine.

    [2] Most players come with crappy headsets, but that's ok. I would much rather use my headset-of-choice that I spent $ on than the cheap earbuds most suppily as an afterthought.

    [3] Yep. Gotta love the battery life.

    [4] Right now they only take up to 64M cards, Rio did come out with a firmware update not too long ago. I bet if there was enough demand they might update it again. I haven't seen 128M cards at prices I would consider buying but I haven't checked around in a while. I'm happy with the cards I have now (2x 32M and 1x 64).

    [5] Has to be your player. I've done everything from dropping mine to having it accidently ripped off of me (watch those headset cords) and it kept on going and going and going.. It's built like a tank AFAIK.

    Should also be mentioned it has a good backlight, very customizable settings (repeats, bookmarks, a simple EQ) and nice display which will scroll ID3 tags. Only complaint is if you have all tags visible the font is rather small (if you have less tags visible it will use a larger font).

    With the relatively low prices for used ones on eBay it wouldn't be a bad buy for someone's 1st MP3 player..

  • by X86Daddy ( 446356 ) on Tuesday November 27, 2001 @03:00PM (#2620352) Journal
    I saw this [thinkgeek.com] at Thinkgeek. It is a Linux-running 10 Gig HD with USBs, Ethernet, PCMCIA, etc... I don't think it records, but it sounds really cool anyway. Here's [terapin-mine.com] the manufacturer's link.
  • by King_TJ ( 85913 ) on Tuesday November 27, 2001 @03:03PM (#2620359) Journal
    You're absolutely right, and make an excellent point. I do, however, have a lot of faith in people to re-engineer hardware to break through the barriers placed in the way of functionality.

    Back when they proclaimed it illegal to sell police scanners that let you listen to cell-phone frequencies in the 800Mhz range, people came out with a slew of modifications to re-enable the missing frequencies.

    When they sold the Playstation so it wouldn't run copies of game CDs, they released hacked chips to solder in the unit and fix the problem.

    When Apex was forced to quit selling DVD players with the "loophole menu" in them to disable Macrovision and region codes, hackers created custom firmware to flash into them to restore these capabilities.

    As long as individuals remain interested in the inner workings of hardware, control will always be regained from the industry. Keeping control in software just means a larger percentage of the population has the knowledge and ability to make the changes needed.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 27, 2001 @03:06PM (#2620378)
    ogg vorbis format uses floating point math. Portable players typically have cpus that can't do floating point math. If ogg comes out with a fixed point solution then portable players will probably come out with support for the format.
  • Two Words: Rio Volt (Score:3, Interesting)

    by dh003i ( 203189 ) <`dh003i' `at' `gmail.com'> on Tuesday November 27, 2001 @03:12PM (#2620414) Homepage Journal
    RioVolt makes the best MP3 players -- they're rated the highest and their CD-MP3 players allow you to get more memory for your buck to store MP3's on. The CD-MP3 players bypass "digital rights management" and basically allow you memory for as many songs as you want -- all you need do is buy another CD-R or CD-RW. I personally use one CD-RW as a temporary storage place for songs I currently like; then I put the complete compilation of an artists songs on one CD-R or maybe two CD-R's. I have all the songs by Madonna on one CD-R, all the songs from Lords of Acid on one CD-R, and all the songs of Beethoven...well, that takes a few more CD-R's -- but you certainly can put all of his most notable works on one CD-R. Lets compare prices and options. Prices for MP3 players were taken from the parent-company's website, prices for one CD-R/RW were calculated from prices from 50 and 25 packs, respectively, from Amazon.com.

    Item [Price]
    Latest RioVolt [$180]
    Nomad Jukebox(20GB) [$350]
    1 CD-R (700MB) [$0.40]
    1 CD-RW (650MB) [$0.80]


    So, it costs you $350 for 20GB of music-memory from Nomad. Lets see how much you'd have to spend for 20GB if you used RioVolt:

    Assuming 20GB of CD-RW's:

    $180 + (20GB*1024MB/GB / 650MB) * $0.80 = $205.21.

    Assumng 20GB of CD-R's:

    $180 + (20GB*1024MB/GB / 700MB) * $0.40 = $191.70

    Thus, you save from $145 to $158 dollars by choosing RioVolt over Nomad. Its a no-brainer, regarding which product you should buy. Yes, Nomad allows you to alter the contents of your collection...so does RioVolt, if you use CD-RW's: and you'll still save 145 bucks.

    Put another way, if you wanted to spend $350 dollars for an MP3-playing device and the memory/CD's to store MP3's on, you get:

    (a) 20GB of storage space from Nomad
    (b) 134GB to 290GB of storage space using RioVolt and 213CD-RW's or 425CD-R's, respectively.

    This is not a practical comparison -- as few people want to carry around 425CD-R's, though some of the larger CD-booklets would let you do such. This is simply cost-analysis.

    Lets go back to the analysis of how much you save by using RioVolt and an according # of CD-RW's to get to 20GB. If you use RioVolt and 32CD-RW's to get 20GB of memory, you save 145 dollars. But lets be a bit more accurate -- you can't carry around 32CD-RW's in your pocket: you need a CD-folder. A Steel CD case capable of holding 60CD's, costs 20 dollars. So you actually only save 125 dollars by choosing RioVolt and buying CD-RW's to get to 20GB. Now, would you rather walk around with one Nomad Jukebox, or with one RioVolt, one steel 60CD case, and 125 extra dollars in your pocket? Your choice.

    P.S.: 125 dollars is enough to buy you one GeForce2 MX for your laptop.


    ----------
  • Go with a handheld (Score:2, Interesting)

    by richcoder ( 539438 ) on Tuesday November 27, 2001 @03:13PM (#2620423)
  • by TWR ( 16835 ) on Tuesday November 27, 2001 @03:24PM (#2620482)
    If you wanted a command line for a pre OS X Mac, you should have grabbed MPW (Macintosh Programmer Workshop). It provided a UNIX-y command line and programming environment. It was payware for a long time, but Apple started giving it away about 5 years ago.

    -jon

  • by jpatters ( 883 ) on Tuesday November 27, 2001 @05:49PM (#2621447)
    If you wanted a command line for a pre OS X Mac, you should have grabbed MPW. It provided a UNIX-y...

    I use MPW to invoke DASM to assemble my Atari 2600 projects... it actually strikes me as more "VMS-y" then "UNIX-y", since it has that move the curser to where the command is writen and press enter (not return) kind of thing going. Of course, that could be because the only VMS app I ever had to use (on UVMVM, which I think UVM still uses) was a horrible calendar program called... shoot, I can't remember the name. It was horrible, though. Anyway, MPW isn't that horrible, but the mechanics of the user interface reminds me of that VMS program for some reason. Oh, and Mac mice have several buttons, it's just that all but one of them are actually on the keyboard.

    OBiPod:
    For those complaining about the price, I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere that the bare hard drive used in the iPod would cost about $400 by itself (retail). It may not be big (in GB), but it is small (physically).
  • by gidds ( 56397 ) <slashdot@gidds . m e .uk> on Tuesday November 27, 2001 @05:56PM (#2621494) Homepage
    Seconded. Though I'm a Mac user, and find the iPod extremely appealing, I'll be sticking with my MDs for now, due to:
    • Capacity. My CD collection is just about into four figures, and I dread to think how much CF or HD space that'd take up even with lousy quality, let along the high quality I'm used to with MD.
    • Speed. When I'm late for work I can grab an MD from the shelf in seconds. Even with FireWire transfers, loading up an MP3 player wouldn't come close to that.
    • Portability. I've an MD deck, a portable recorder I use for listening on the way to work and for (legal!) recording of concerts, and a player in my car, and I can easily transfer music between them all, which I would currently find hard with MP3.

    I look forward to a time when these issues are sorted out, and of course they're not problems for everyone, but for now and for me MDs are by far the best solution.

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