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GNU is Not Unix

Has Free Software Saved Any Schools? 462

morcego asks: "I think everyone remembers the case of PCs for Kids, the Australian group that donates computers for the poor children, when Microsoft asked them lots of money for the software on the computers they donated. I am trying to convince schools to start using free software, and I have heard arguments like 'all free software initiatives in public schools around the world have failed.' I know this is not true, but I need cases to show them. So, do you know of any school (public or not), or other educational institution that has been saved from paying large amounts of money (and closing its doors) by free software?" For those interested in this topic, you'll probably want to read up on the latest salvo in the Microsoft private antitrust settlement. It sounds like education, and Open Source, may now have an official relationship, and things are now getting kicked into high gear. While it's good to hear about the "SchoolForge" coalition (no relation to SourceForge or NewsForge), what educational resources are currently available to schools from the Open Source arena?
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Has Free Software Saved Any Schools?

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  • Here's One (Score:4, Informative)

    by ScumBiker ( 64143 ) <scumbiker@jwe[ ]r.org ['nge' in gap]> on Thursday December 20, 2001 @01:27PM (#2732654) Homepage Journal
    It's used in Albion, WI. Redhat on older Gateway hardware. It sits right along side of the Win95 and Mac boxen. I'm pretty sure they're going to be installing it on the rest of the x86 boxen.
  • Hmmmm (Score:3, Insightful)

    by seanmeister ( 156224 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @01:29PM (#2732663)
    "what educational resources are currently available to schools from the Open Source arena?"

    How about "source code"?

  • an interesting site (Score:4, Informative)

    by MoceanWorker ( 232487 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @01:29PM (#2732666) Homepage
    you should check out OpenSourceSchools [opensourceschools.org]. it's a great site that focuses on Open Source in the education system
  • by alsta ( 9424 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @01:31PM (#2732674)
    I think it would be interesting to hear what schools in other countries have done about this. Not because I doubt that American schools have done it, but because it would show how universal an Open Source solution could be.
  • by ZoneGray ( 168419 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @01:32PM (#2732676) Homepage
    One thing working in your favor, ironicly enough, is Windows Product Activation. The more difficult it is to use bootleg commercial software, the easier it is to see the value of free stuff.
    • Re:One blessing.... (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Bonker ( 243350 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @01:58PM (#2732804)
      The more difficult it is to use bootleg commercial software, the easier it is to see the value of free stuff.

      This is an important point. Most of the grade school teachers I've ever met who deal with computers have the attitude that anything short of organized for-profit software piracy is okay because they're teachers. They *have* to teach students on a limited budjet, are used to stretching any school supply just as far as it will go, and see copying software they've bought for home use, or ordering only one copy of windows to install on every computer in a lab as a necessity.

      This is the same thing as making xerox copies out of a book to hand out to their students, as far as most of them are concenred.

      Now, I'm personally inclined to agree with the morality of this little ethical short cut. I have a lot of problems with software licenses, and I think it would be a wonderful thing if being a teacher really meant you were exempt from copyright law for educational purposes.

      You can bet that Microsoft, Adobe, Corel, and the other members of the BSA don't agree with me, however.

      If you start stressing this fact, Free Software just starts seeming like a better and better idea in the classroom.
  • I'd say so, yes. (Score:5, Informative)

    by Bowie J. Poag ( 16898 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @01:32PM (#2732678) Homepage


    A couple guys I know of started an organization called the OSEF, or Open Source Education Foundation. They basically assemble machines and networks from spare parts, go out to a school and install the gear, free of charge. I know of at least one school they've helped, in downtown Tucson. About a dozen machines remotely administrated from a central server in the back room. Google for them, you might find a link or two.

    • by r_j_prahad ( 309298 ) <r_j_prahad AT hotmail DOT com> on Thursday December 20, 2001 @01:56PM (#2732788)
      OSEF has a great article from a feature story the Arizona Daily Star ran on them. URL below, but here's some quickie quotes from the story....

      "As such, they're entirely unimpressed that Corbett is among a mere handful of primary schools around the world with a computer network that runs Linux, the flagship of the fashionable free software movement. They probably can't appreciate the amount of money the school is saving, or the thousands of hours that Linux devotee Harry McGregor has donated to transform a collection of PCs past their prime into a Net-connected laboratory that's ahead of its time."

      "A lab similar to Corbett's could cost the district $100,000 or more if it were set up with new computers and commercial software. Instead, the school spent just $12,000 to convert its donated PCs into a Linux network that offers similar access to the Net and educational programs. Moreover, Corbett's pupils will gain experience with an operating system that's becoming more popular every day."

      http://www.osef.orgarticles_and_letters/azstar/whi zkids.html [osef.org]
  • by meckardt ( 113120 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @01:36PM (#2732688) Homepage
    Think about it for a second. There are three elements of the equation here: Hardware, Software, and Operations. If we are talking about computers to be used by a school, then first you have to have the boxes, then you have to have something to run on the boxes, and then you have to have somebody who knows how to make it all work. Of the three, the last is probably the biggest expense, and certainly the one that you aren't going to get for free. Even if its just a tech savvy teacher who maintains the things, its going to take a lot of his time to do so... time taken away from his primary job of teaching the kids. QED, it has a cost.
    • A good computer system does not need a lot of maintenance. Besides which, in any school you can find technologically savvy kids. Make them a part of the computer team that maintains the network. Many a school is run in this way.

      Besides which, it sounds as if you are saying that a Windows alternative would require _less_ maintenance than a Unix solution. If a teacher has the skills to handle a Unix system, then that configuration will require a lot less time than the eqwuivalent Microsoft solution.

      -sirket
      • A good computer system does not need a lot of maintenance.

        Horseshit. Any non-trivial setup needs quite a bit of maintainence, and a school needs a non-trivial setup if you want to get any non-trivial use out of it. Otherwise it's doorstop PCs in the wings of the physics class getting used by half a dozen kids a year.

        The answer for small schools is going to have to be outsourcing.
      • Besides which, in any school you can find technologically savvy kids. Make them a part of the computer team that maintains the network.
        In this age of lawsuit-happy parents and grandstanding local politicians, I don't see many school board members or superintendants who'd likely wan't to be associated with the idea of kids controlling their own use of technology, however flawed the idea of controlling access to technology in schools may be.
        • I am part of the back room "bench tech" team at my high school. It is part of the tech research class. We set up new machines when they come in, service broken ones, and install new software while we aren't working on our research projects. The only thing we aren't allowed to do is open the cases, the county techs have to do that. Of course, I don't do much work because Windows and the Mac OS confuse the hell out of me. I am so used to just popping in, editing a text file, and reloading a daemon that pressing graphical buttons (the fun part is finding the buttons you need to click) and rebooting five or six times before it works is impossible. The other people (that actually use Windows at home) do a lot of "bench teching" though.
      • A good computer system does not need a lot of maintenance.

        Even if this is true (which it really isn't), you're thinking of the amount of maintenance required when a relatively tech-savvy person is using it.

        Now, think about schools. There are multiple users going on/off the computer each day, installing things, deleting things, many of the students *trying* to mess the system up. There is a lot more maintenance when (for example) 1 out of 10 students is trying to crash the machine so they don't have to do work. My mom teaches high school--she has had students do a lot of crazy shit to the computers, from deleting software to cutting the friggin power cords with scissors. Now, *that* kind of stuff doesn't happen in the real employment world.
    • true, but thats true regardless of OS. So why not choose an OS that doesn't have a liscense, and is a good learning tool?
      If its a high school, you have the computer class run the operations. Perferable the new student would be traind by student who where doing it the previouse year, under supervision, of course.
  • by Sj0 ( 472011 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @01:36PM (#2732690) Journal
    We're using RedHat 7.1 to host webpages here, which has saved quite a bit against the cost of a copy of W2k Pro. Also, if we weren't running Linux, our aging IBM server (60 MHZ, 64 MB of ram) would need to be replaced.

    In addition to that, we use Linux in our Cisco networking academies classroom because we can't get any of the software we would need under NT (no doubt it exists, but it would be hard to find, possibly expensive, and likely non-standard). We can use the free FTP, TFTP, and HTTP servers on paticularly ancient PCs(one of our more powerful machines is a 75 Mhz machine with two gigs of SCSI drive!) without the hassles of running Windows (windows will now reboot...).

    There was a plan a few years ago to turn the ancient machines on the network into X clients, for which they would be quick, but they are now sluggish W2K machines.
  • ahh, open source (Score:2, Insightful)

    by vorovsky ( 413068 )
    I work as a pc/network technician in a school district with about 3000 students in Texas. Basically all of our pc's run the standard with 98/office 2000. I have however convinced my boss to let me put up a slackware server that we use for hosting a few of our web pages and may start doing some routing for our district. Anyway, I have wanted to try to get something like this going on here, but everyone is so stuck to using -only- office 2k that they would refuse to switch to an open source alternative. If anyone has any suggestions on what I could do to maybe get things going here, please let me know. I would love to get away from paying outrageous win/office license fees.
    • Re:ahh, open source (Score:2, Interesting)

      by RedOregon ( 161027 )
      Set them up with the StarOffice 6.0 beta for windows machines. Once they get used to that (shouldn't take long) then tell them the _same_ interface is used in Linux, then start on the money angle.
    • Keep dreaming. (Score:2, Insightful)

      The sad fact is that there are _no_ open source alternatives that provide the wealth of features that Microsoft Office does. I have been using office XP, and you have to admit that it is pretty nice. Open source alternatives are so far behind that I really don't see them catching up. Besides, the rest of the business world has standardized upon MS Office. That is the de facto file format, and I don't see it changing anytime soon. Office XP on Win2000 is stable and packed with features. I think people just need to accept that software costs money, instead of looking for a free lunch.

      You wouldn't expect your teachers to work for free, but you expect highly skilled software developers to give their work away. Think again, my friend.

      • How many people need the "wealth of features" of Microsoft Office? I can't ever get anyone to tell me what it has that StarOffice doesn't. For that matter, from what I see 90% of Windows and MS-Office users use only about 10% of those features. Not always the same 10%, but there are a lot of those features that just about nobody uses. How many of them would be happy with something that was smaller, cheaper and faster? I've been using StarOffice for quite a while, and I have to say, it has always done what I wanted. If anything the complaint I had about the 5.x versions was that it was too much like MS-Office in that it was big, used a lot of resources and was slow. 6.0 has made a lot of improvements on that in that it seems much faster, especially on startup. StarOffice hasn't failed to open up the MS Office format documents people send me (unlike some of my co-workers who were using MS Office 95 and couldn't open some documents created in newer versions of MS Office -- they've since switched to StarOffice), so I just don't see the point in paying money for Microsoft Office.

        As for MS-Office being the standard file formats, that is true for now, but unless you've got some kind of crystal ball, it is dangerous to make a prediction on that not changing in the future. If you went back 10 years, and told people that Word Perfect and Lotus 1-2-3 wouldn't be the standard file formats in a couple of years, people would have looked at you with the same kind of disbelief that you do now regarding MS-Office. If you went back 10 years further it was WordStar and VisiCalc. Things change, and few people will accurately predict the way things will be in the future, especially not those without a view of the past.

        Do I have a problem paying for software? No, if it is worth it. Am I going to pay for something I can get free? Probably not. And I certainly don't want to pay money for software that isn't worth it. And frankly, that is what I think about most of Microsoft's products, especially since it seems like their prices have gone up over the years.

        Do I expect highly skilled software developers to give their work away? No, at least not unless they want to. But do they? Yes, and I thank them for that.

    • take it to the people.

      Get a list of costs for the Win system
      Get a list of costs for the Linux system.

      Be sure to include the costs of any upgrades that may be neccessary.

      Be sure they understand Windows new Liscensing.
      Make them get a lawyer review both liscense.
      Point out the eduacational benifit of each system.

      Explain to parents that little Jimmy's education(and there tax dollars)is being wasted on upgrades and liscencing fees.

      Have them go to the school board.

      Another appraoch, talk to local politicians who use education on there platform, and inform them of how much money they can save the system, and how forward thinking about education they would be by going with a system that encourges learning, is cheaper, and has all the tools they need, so no application costs on top of the OS costs.
  • Computer Lab (Score:4, Informative)

    by fishybell ( 516991 ) <.moc.liamtoh. .ta. .llebyhsif.> on Thursday December 20, 2001 @01:37PM (#2732693) Homepage Journal
    Here at Westminster College, Salt Lake City Utah, we have a dozen-or-so-computer lab where every computer is running linux. I'm not quite sure, but I'm pretty sure that it is also the only non-classroom computer lab on campus. No there are not any classes that teach/use linux, but there is a horde of geeks that are every bit as useful as the teachers.
  • Sofia, Bulgaria (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    the University of Sofia is using Linux as the primary operating system in most of the computer rooms to teach students Operating Systems and to handle the internal info. they also use NT workstations for Java and C/C++ education (for C they use Borland C/C++ 3.5 but i really think they must move on to GCC)

    so, it looks like this:
    -Linux for advanced students and general management
    -NT for beginners
  • by sirket ( 60694 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @01:39PM (#2732701)
    Stuyvesant uses Linux for their shell machines, mail servers, web proxies and DNS servers. They also use Linux for a majorityof their lab computers. Many desktops still use Windows, but until office comes out for Linux, things will probably stay that way.

    -sirket
  • This article [opensourceschools.org] on OpenSourceSchools.org relates how Australia's Northern Territory has just completed an installation of state- wide network infrastructure in all schools that is based on Linux LAN servers and makes wide use of open source software. I was very impressed with their accomplishment. They use SquirrelMail (PHP) for the mail, and the network infrastructure is Linux. The desktops are all Win 98 but they do include StarOffice as the productivity app so would save some more cash there.


    My experience over the last 3 months of OpenSourceSchools.org is that while a complete takeover of Linux in schools is unlikely, there are many places where costly licensing can be replaces with OS equivalents to great savings.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 20, 2001 @01:41PM (#2732710)

    This movement is gaining ground. Here's a ton of sites:

    Start with Why Use Open Source Software In Schools [edge-op.org] to answer your (and your superior's!) questions. Note that Microsoft is trying to keep a stranglehold on this and their salesmen are playing dirty; but we as free software activists have one thing they can not have: integrity. Teach the truth about Open Source, explain that this is the true American way, show how we need to use it in education to teach kids the right way to do things (and to share with neighbors) to make a productive world, and we'll go at it. Academia can't afford to lose itself in proprietary software; as this site explains, with free software we've got a chance for a blossoming in academia.

    The K12 Linux in Schools Project [k12.or.us]

    A good example is St. John's School [st-johns.org.uk] in the UK (attention, USA education boards!)

    Open Source and Education [beaconschool.org] tells you how to do it, what you need to know.

    Linux in Higher Education: Open Source, Open Minds, Social Justice [linuxjournal.com] is an important article in Linux Journal about this.

    K12 Linux Terminal Server Project for Schools [k12ltsp.org] is just one of the things you can do.

    K-12 Linux [k12linux.org], another good site about this.

    A good technical primer on Linux in Education [iteachnet.com]

    If you use free software in schools you will also need free documentation and training materials. Here is a list of the best of it [linuxnovice.org].

    (Pls mod this up guys, I'm posting anon...)

  • by SumDeusExMachina ( 318037 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @01:41PM (#2732711) Homepage
    I think I could speak for many people when I say that using Linux along with other free tools like gcc is one of the best things that a developer can do. I personally use RedHat at my job as a developer, along with the whole development team, while most of the rest of the company uses Windows. You just get more done in Linux if you're programming.

    However, I think it would be wrong to try to foist Free Software upon unwitting schools before they knew what they were getting into. There is a very important reason that Linux has stayed at about .25% of desktop market share: it makes a crappy end-user desktop. Sure, you can use it on your network servers for Samba and mail and the like, but I would hesitate to train children on a system that will be ultimately useless to them when they get out into a world dominated by Microsoft software. Because, like it or not, high school is, for most, valuable job training before they leave high school and enter the work force, be that as secretaries using MS Office or accountants using Excel, etc. When you teach them to use software that is completely irrelevant outside of school, you are crippling them for life as they have to retrain themselves on all the applications that school had taught them in order to use something as commonplace as Office.

    Not to mention the numerous administration headaches that would result from your everyday highschool computer teacher trying to figure out Linux, let alone teach it. I personally could not imagine my glorified typing teacher in high school comprehending file permissions, much less understanding something as arcane as TeX or vi.

    All in all, its probably a better idea to stick with something like Macs which have a proven track record in education as well as most of the common office applications that can be found on Windows computers as well. Free Software has its place, but it certainly isn't on the desktop.

    • When you teach them to use software that is completely irrelevant outside of school, you are crippling them for life

      Don't you think this is a tad, erm, extreme? You think that using StarOffice (or whatever) instead of MS Office is going to mean that they are going to have big problems when they start work? Is MS Word really that different to be "completely irrelevant".

      Anyway, school is about learning, not training, at least not where I come from. If an employer is unwilling to send new young recruits on a course to learn MS Office (if that's what they use) then they will have badly trained staff - the employers fault, not the schools.
    • by Chuck Messenger ( 320443 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @02:06PM (#2732850)

      When you teach them to use software that is completely irrelevant outside of school, you are crippling them for life as they have to retrain themselves on all the applications that school had taught them in order to use something as commonplace as Office.

      Crippling them for life? By teaching them something? Kids are smarter than you give them credit for. So are adults.

      What kids need to learn about computers is not what keystroke combination does what in Application X. Teach them the principles of computer operation.

      Open source, in my opinion, is of immense use in education, precisely because it is open. Students can not only learn to use apps, but can delve as far into the system as their curiosity takes them.

      Schools should not be vocational training centers (for the most part). I mean, sure, there could be a Microsoft Office class, to learn how to use that software suite. That would be a vocational class, and it could have its place. But it shouldn't be the focus. Schools should not be fundamentally vocational.
    • by RedRun ( 204496 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @02:08PM (#2732862) Homepage
      Because, like it or not, high school is, for most, valuable job training before they leave high school and enter the work force, be that as secretaries using MS Office or accountants using Excel, etc.

      How horribly untrue. For many, if not most, high school is a path to college. We shouldn't be teaching kids the ins and outs of whatever is the hot topic of today, because that can change quickly. When I started high school (1992), we were still using DOS. Not terribly valuable today. We should be teaching them how to learn. This would involve exposing them to as many computer interfaces as possible (Win, Mac, Linux), so that they learn the basin functionality of an interface and can learn a new interface relatively quickly. By limiting them to one single interface style, they have trouble understanding the difference between the operating system, the interface to that system, and the software that runs on it. Not to mention the numerous administration headaches that would result from your everyday highschool computer teacher trying to figure out Linux, let alone teach it. I personally could not imagine my glorified typing teacher in high school comprehending file permissions, much less understanding something as arcane as TeX or vi.

      There's no reason a teacher would have to use TeX or vi. StarOffice would do quite nicely as a word processor/spreadsheet combo. It has all the functionality a school could want. All in all, its probably a better idea to stick with something like Macs which have a proven track record in education as well as most of the common office applications that can be found on Windows computers as well.

      It's that kind of attitude that keeps our schools impoverished and our kids learning-impaired. If we showed them three different word processors, they would realize that they all do pretty much the same thing. Suddenly, they learn that change isn't scary. They learn how to adapt, and become more dynamic students. They learn that computers are just machines that follow instructions, and can be changed to suite the user's need. Those skills are way more important than knowing how to set a page break in Word XP.

    • Oh dear.

      I learned to use a word processor on a very strange old Amstrad. Then I worked on macs for a while. Then I had to switch to Windows when I went off to university.

      Now, I am comfortable using basic office software at an intermediate/expert level under mac, windows, linux, and am confident that I could learn to use basic office software under any given OS.

      Teaching to one set of office software is pointless. Eventually it will be outmoded, whatever it is. Teach kids to be comfortable with computers, and comfortable teaching themselves to use new software. It'll do them much more good than harm in the long term.
    • People use what they know and are taught what is in the marketplace.

      So, if you teach people Free Software, they will use Free Software. And when they use Free Software, their kids will be taught Free Software. Or, you can continue the vicous cycle where you learn MS Office because that is what is used in the world, and because you know it you use it, and because that is what is used in the world your kids learn it...

    • Because, like it or not, high school is, for most, valuable job training before they leave high school and enter the work force

      Actually I don't believe that is true. I think that most high school graduates go on to attend some form of college. I don't think that a very large percentage of kids learn enough in just high school to get a good enough job that they would be using a computer much. If you only have a high school diploma you are probably going to be stuck flipping burgers, hammering nails on a construction site or bagging groceries rather than working in an office.

      And as for children learning one software package and it having no applicability to the "real world" unless it is the exact package that they will encounter later -- I don't buy it. There isn't that much difference between one GUI word processor and another or one GUI spreadsheet and another. Or for that matter one desktop environment and another. Just about all of them have some kind of pop up application "start" menu, and icons on the desktop you can click. Just about all applications have a menu bar, tool bar, etc. If you know one, you can figure out anything else in a short period of time.

      As for your assertation that Linux makes a crappy end-user desktop, I think it is largely a myth based on people being told that and not really taking the time to look for themselves. While your typing teacher may not be able to figure out a command line or power user tools like TeX and vi, she probably wouldn't have much more trouble figuring out how to use KFM/Konqueror and StarOffice than Windows Exployer/IE and Microsoft Office.

      As someone who uses a KDE desktop on a daily basis, I just can't agree with you about free software not having its place on the desktop. Even some of my Windows using coworkers are using StarOffice instead of Microsoft Office because there is no reason to spend a lot of money on something they don't use all that much.

    • by DrCode ( 95839 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @02:43PM (#2733045)
      By your reasoning, I'm only qualified to work in jobs that require a sliderule.
    • Because, like it or not, high school is, for most, valuable job training before they leave high school and enter the work force, be that as secretaries using MS Office or accountants using Excel, etc. When you teach them to use software that is completely irrelevant outside of school, you are crippling them for life as they have to retrain themselves on all the applications that school had taught them in order to use something as commonplace as Office.

      Would any lessons learned on Office 97 become irrelivant when Office 2000 came out (and the same for XP)? Microsoft reworks the interface with every new version. Does someone taught on a new version need to be retaught?

      Of course not. If the students are taught properly, then they should be able to go from one version to another, one program to another. A word processor is a word processor, regardless of the platform or package.

      As Linux matures and administration becomes less complex, the savings of not having to buy licences to Microsoft software becomes clear.

      A little side note here... The reason Microsoft wanted to "settle" with the government by giving away software to schools is to prevent this from occuring. They'd put themsleves on a level playing field with Linux by taking cost out of the equation.
    • Many GNU tools have been ported to many other OSes including MS Windows.
      There are a host of free software applications available for many OSes including MS Windows.

      This, not to mention that, Linux distributions have achieved the point where most previously 'complexe' administration tasks are now done inside friendly GUI applications.

      GNU's Not Unix is an acronym with a meaning that seems sadly forgotten in some of these discussions.

      I personally think that teaching teenagers why they should be concerned about their intellectual heritage and about free software an important proposition regardless of what OS they are running.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 20, 2001 @01:41PM (#2732715)
    Where? Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, Canada.

    For those of you who don't know MJ is a city of about 30,000. My girlfriend's little sister (gr 3. I think), needed to write a letter one day when she was over visiting. I said I don't have Office, but I have staroffice which is pretty much the same. "Don't worry that is what we are learning in school". I was shocked and thrilled.

    I am 99% sure that they were using a windows version of StarOffice, but it is still free.

    ~S
    • Microsoft shouldn't be worried about Linux, it should be worried about StarOffice. After all, people get the operating system "for free" and Linux still doesn't have the wealth of software available for it that Windows has.

      MS Office, on the other hand, is always an added expense, and it's expensive to boot. With the price of computers falling like a brick it won't be too long before the added cost of Microsoft Office doubles the price of a computer. Not only that, but there are probably more folks running Linux than folks that use a feature in MS Office that doesn't exist in StarOffice. In other words, the group of people that absolutely have to have MS Office is relatively small.

      If the Office Suite were to become a commodity market Microsoft would be in a world of hurt (which is almost certainly why Sun is funding the effort).

  • Although... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Anixamander ( 448308 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @01:43PM (#2732722) Journal
    One of the arguments (which I consider fallacious) against Macs in the schools is that kids need to be prepared for the "real world," one that involves a Microsoft OS and Microsoft applications. As Linux has yet to be embraced on the desktop to a great extent in the business world (still largely relegated to server duties), does Open Source hinder their abilities to function in the business world? Furthermore, are the support people in these schools equipped to deal with the support issues of a new platform? Linux may indeed be easier to support than its windows counterpart, but without the appropriate training (which is always hard to come by when delaing with public school funding) it may be difficult.

    Ideally, schools would shift their software budget to a training budget to bring their support gurus up to speed. And the children would gain a comfort level with technology, though not necessarily the technology they will be using in the real world. Unfortunately, I have more questions than answers here.

    I'd be interested in hearing a reasoned response to my questions. Dogmatic zealots need not apply.
  • Wrong question! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by bluGill ( 862 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @01:43PM (#2732723)

    This is the wrong question. The right question is why computers in school.

    Learning is universial, not applied. You need to learn to reading writing, and arithmatic. There is no need for comptuers in that. Sure there are some good computer programs to help there, and typing is a skill that needs to be learned, but computers are the implimentation detail, not the meat. Until you have something to do with the comptuer there is no point in having one. Young kids need to learn to write things out by hand.

    Yes computers are important to the world today, but comptuers change fast. when I first started with computers wordStar was the big program in industry. In High school they braged that we were learning the latest word processor that industry is using, wordPerfect 5.1 for dos. And at the time it was the biggest, but today everyone is using Word 2000, and looking at an upgrade to that. Teach the kids to think with whatever tool is avaiable, and you will be fine, but teach them that the tool currently in vogue is the only one to use and you do them a disservice.

    Yes I know industry has a lot of obsolete, but fast enough comptuers they would love to donate to any charity that will take them, but that doesn't mean you have to take them. A computer is a means to many good ends, but do not allow a computer to become the end itself.

    • So, if I understand you right, you are saying that it is better that they do everything by hand than to use a word processing application that will be outdated by the time they use it? I think the pen and paper approach is more archaic and a waste of time. Besides, the applications used by high schoolers are a lot more mature than they were in the days of Wordperfect 5.1 for Dos. The office apps of 95 don't look drastically different from today, for example.
      High school provides more than reading, writing, and arithmetic, at least beyond grade school.

      Even in grade school, "edutainment" software is a very good tool to instruct children. Besides, I think you underestimate how far high school went for you. In my Senior year I was admining a network of Sun4 systems running SunOS 4.1.3 for the school. Don't think that can be done on pen and paper... Granted, this was a very different high school than normal...

      In normal high schools, there are some curriculums that include at least rudimentary programming. In most other classes, as well as in libraries, computers serve as a good research tool. Also, even for something like learning typing, a computer keyboard is a lot different than, say a typewriter.

      Computers have become such a ubiqitous thing in our lives that it would be insane to say the kids have no business having them in school. Yes, applications change over time, but with current versions widely used and understood, companies shy away from the idea of changing interfaces drastically anymore for fear of losing consumer loyalty.
    • Re:Wrong question! (Score:4, Interesting)

      by dillon_rinker ( 17944 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @02:18PM (#2732911) Homepage
      There is no need for comptuers in that.
      You are wrong. Computers are a force multiplier for teachers; rather than one thread of instruction at a time, there can be many. For $30,000, you can get one teacher or 20 computers...do the math. (Warning - minor parental boasting ahead). I have a child in kindergarten who is learning to read. Most of his classmates are not. Why? Because the school has reading software that paces itself to the student. This is a supplement to the curriculum, not the main curriculum. The kids can learn at their own pace; those who can progress farther faster have an opportunity to do so that they wouldn't have before.

      So, this is nice and all, but why do I think it's necessary? Most of the world will work for pennies on the dollar compared to US workers. The only advantage future workers in the US will have are in the educational opportunities offered to them. The more opportunities my kid has, the more likely he'll be able to compete against coders in India.

      In High school they braged that we were learning the latest word processor that industry is using, wordPerfect 5.1 for dos.
      I assume this was in a class designed to give you a job right out of highschool; otherwise, you're correct - the curriculum designers were morons. You should have been using a multiple free word processors to study concepts common to all word-processing systems, such as cut, paste, format, etc. You should have been considering information as a stream of bytes, as in Word Perfect, or a collection of objects, as in Word. You should have learned timeless concepts, not rapidly obsoleted procedures...

      do not allow a computer to become the end itself.
      Hear, hear. I knew of a principal who bought computers for his school because he'd promised parents that their students would spend an hour a week using computers. As much as we all enjoyed playing Oregon Trail, I never learned anything from it. I certainly didn't learn anything by playing it week after week. On the other hand, I learned a great deal that remains with me to this day (though I'm not sure of its immediate applicability) when my science teacher had us spend an hour running a simulation of the process that seismologists use to measure the distance to epicenters of earthquakes, and using that information to pinpoint the epicenter of a quake. That one hour solidified in my mind everything we'd learned about earthqukes during the previous two weeks.
      • Disclaimer: All three of my parents (father, mother, and stepmother), as well as two of my grandparents, have been teachers. So you might say I am kind of biased.

        For $30,000, you can get one teacher or 20 computers...do the math.

        One teacher is worth infinitely more than 20 computers. COMPUTERS ARE NOT TEACHERS, period. And I find it sad that $30,000 can get you one teacher anyway, teachers are paid way too little.

        As for your earthquake example, your science teacher could have done a simulation of that same process with a couple seismograph readings, and a class set of compasses and maps. This would have saved tons of money, or at least freed up the computer lab for some other class that actually needed it.

      • For $30,000, you can get one teacher or 20 computers...do the math.

        Or the administration can renovate the conference room in the elegantly appointed downtown offices.

        Given these choices, I think that the newly-retired teacher will be starting a computer sales business while the administration decides between the walnut or mahogany paneling.
    • They teach auto shop in high school. Of course, fixing cars is not as "essential" as reading, writing and math, either. However, not *all* students will go on to college. Most will probably own a car at some point. For some, getting a job fixing cars out of high school may be an attractive option. So knowing how to do simple repairs on a car is a very *practical* thing for *many* high school students to learn, and I think that a lot of people would argue that therefore it's a valuable addition to the curriculum.

      Many kids will either own computers or work with them daily after high school. Some may want to go on to work in an explicitly computer-oriented career, which however doesn't require much specific post-secondary education (hardware repair in a small shop, for instance). To the same degree as auto-mechanics (and probably far more than say, wood shop), computer education in secondary schools is a valuable addition to the curriculum.

      For primary education, heavily computer-centric instruction may be overkill. But at the high school level good arguments can be made for it.

      Of course, it won't be too useful to students who just want their school to subsidize their bong-building activities, but that's what metal shop is for.

  • Free? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by TeleoMan ( 529859 )
    It took me a while to figure out what this article is talking about. When the author says "free software" what he means is _not_ the same free as the FSF. He actually means "getting commercial software for free" and not "free software like Linux." The problem with this whole thesis is that I just can't imagine that it's particularly true of Linux writers, because the amount of money you save by getting a free copy of RedHat or Mandrake is pretty trivial, since you can just download them for free off the net.

    However, in the world of non-free software, where "review copies" of software can cost hundreds or thousands of dollars, it gets a lot more tricky. I have had plenty of personal experience with people (myself included!) who want to write reviews of product X in order to get a free copy. And that can definitely influence what you write...



    "I'm not joking. I'm really running for President." - Pat Robertson
  • by junis from afghanist ( 541841 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @01:47PM (#2732744) Homepage
    I just wanted to let you know that Kabul Elementary school, which operates out of my neighbor Mustaffa's barn, has been running the new version of ISLAMIX. ISLAMIX is a revolutionary open-source operating system which Mustaffa and I developed recently for our Commodore computers. The kids at Kabul Elementary think ISLAMIX is the greatest thing since sliced camel! We will have a website soon with more information about ISLAMIX and it's many features (including Beowolf clustering in order to download and play movies from the Internet.) We are also working on porting the Katzbot to ISLAMIX, but we've not had any luck getting things to compile. It seems that our copy of endlessramblings.h may have been corrupted during the modem transfer. -Junis from Afghanistan
  • by Wakko Warner ( 324 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @01:51PM (#2732762) Homepage Journal
    We were gonna have to shell out MAD DOLLARS ($$$) for windows XP until me and my friends found a L33T 0-DAY KRAK for it on IRC!!!

    Now the entire library network is running XP Server!!!

    Free software r0x0rs!!!

    - A.P.
  • by madmancarman ( 100642 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @01:52PM (#2732766)
    After having tons of problems with NT 4 and IIS crashing our high school's web server on a daily basis, we switched to Apache on RedHat 5.2 (about 3 years ago). Since then, we've switched machines a couple times (as better machines are hand-me-downed to us) and upgraded the Linux distro, but we've had great uptime.

    The success of our web server allowed us to push for a perl/apache/linux-based attendance system that let us get rid of scan-tron sheets to be filled in every morning. Now, our teachers open up their web browsers in the morning, log in, and they check off their absent students 1st period. In the afternoon, they can check who was here and who wasn't, and it saves us about a ream of paper per day, since we don't have to print out attendance bulletins any more. Most of the work for the attendance program was done by one of my students who was learning perl on the fly.

    I also teach a class for A+ and Network+ certifications, but we cover Linux both semesters (especially when we do network security in Network+). I'm hoping that next semester, we'll be able to use Linux as the primary desktop OS for most of the networking stuff, but we'll have to see what happens.

    There are two major problems, in my opinion: businesses want students who are proficient with Windows and Office, and schools don't have the resources to hire people who are competent Linux admins. If the demand for Linux users starts going up, then maybe the number of computers running Linux in schools will increase, but for now, it's probably limited to servers.

    One funny tidbit - earlier this school year, Code Red and Nimda running on local districts' NT/2000 IIS web servers took down the WAN access for most of the schools in Southwest Ohio. Seems that the servers weren't patched or maintained as well as they should have been. Web servers running Apache, of course, didn't have this problem.

    First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. -Ghandi

    • by Anonymous Coward
      >>Most of the work for the attendance program was done by one of my students who was learning perl on the fly.

      How much you want to bet that this kid just happens to graduate school with perfect attendance?
    • I think it would be really usefull if you could write down what you did, the benefits to the school, some stories about how the non-MS system sttyed running when the MS system went down.
      Include the totla cast savinges from licensing, to paper savings. Get some of the teachers to write a couple of paragraphs on what they think of the syste.
      Then send a copy to every school, teacher, and linux group you can. I would send a nice Hardcopy to the schools a teachers, and a link to a soft copy for the Linux group.
      Yes, I know its a lot of effort, but I think this is an important issue for the Nation, not just to the linux community. The cost saving and educational opportunities are huge for tax payers.
  • SEUL.Org (Score:2, Informative)

    by 0A4h ( 538948 )
    It seems nobody has mentioned www.seul.org, the section education. There is a lot of software and some (for you valuable) testimonies.
  • I keep hearing about how Windows is so easy to use, but moments ago I showed someone (Again!) how to drag and drop a file. She's be at this job since before 1995 when the computers were installed; some people you're never gonna reach.

    But I'm not seeing an old Slackware, install-by-tarballs machine running a monochrome
    monitor being installed into school desktops; anyone trying that should be shot, and allowed to admin windows for a living.

    I use Redhat and Ximian here. I don't have time to put on my programmer-hat every time I install something, and the RPMs cover my ass so I don't crash libraries or something, and keep in mind I can install them from the comfort of my own desk instead of walking the halls to get to the Windows box.

    And Ximian is a big help, too; their latest offerings are at least as good as Microsoft for the things that matter (Spreadsheets, Word Processing, etc) and get better every month. If you haven't tried them, now's the time to start watching; they've done a superb job.

    And as for learning....how'd these people ever migrate off of WfW? And then to Win98...then to 2000? It's not the exact same thing, and that's rather the *point* isn't it?
  • by James1006 ( 544398 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @02:00PM (#2732811) Homepage
    My school district currently uses a mixed Microsoft/Linux environment. Until last week, our primary www server was Linux. However my boss got grumpy and decided to switch it to Win2k+IIS w/FP Extensions, so that he could update it easier via Frontpage (I'm gagging too). However, within 30 minutes of him installing Win2k and IIS, it got Nimdaed. Nice job! Right now, we have: A secondary Linux www server, for PHP/MySQL things. A SMTP/IMAP/webmail server in Linux. This is one area where Linux paid off. MS wanted thousands for Exchange, Win2k with the necessary hardware. Old machine (We don't have a ton of users) + Linux + exim + uwimap + Apache/PHP/MySQL = total new costs of $0. We are also implementing a Linux firewall to segment the network into DMZs (Something thats never been done, because as with most projects it is "Lets get it done and up as fast as possible". sigh.)
  • Programming (Score:3, Funny)

    by finity ( 535067 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @02:02PM (#2732826) Homepage Journal
    My high school offers programming classes, but we do all our programming on windows machines. I don't know why we don't switch over to linux and GNU, it being free and all. It seems like it would all be a better learning experience if we could easily see the source for more complex programs. My friends and I have setup a Slackware box, but the school system doesn't know yet and we don't plan to tell them. Last time we did, the next day we came to school and the power cord, monitor, keyboard, mouse and network cords were all gone. They thought it was a "virus" ;-)
  • My story (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 20, 2001 @02:03PM (#2732831)
    I was involved in a project to donate computers to a middile school in the mountains.

    We had computers donated from Goodwill and managed to get our university microsoft rep to donate Windows.

    Or first thought was to use Linux, but the schools ruled it out since none of the teachers
    would have been able to use it.

    We did manage to get them Office 2000, though, and
    I thank the people at Microsoft that helped us with that.

    Moral of the story though -- many schools are too afraid to learn new things, and that prevents free (and often better) software from taking hold.

    Linux developers do need to develop a more integrated desktop. Should there be a "X-with-training-wheels" we'd see a lot more Linux users!
  • riverdale school (Score:4, Informative)

    by McVeigh ( 145742 ) <seth@@@hollen...org> on Thursday December 20, 2001 @02:04PM (#2732836) Homepage
    www.riverdale.k12.or.us/linux/ [k12.or.us] good linux info there also
  • My father teaches CS at a small private school, and while they're not by any means struggling financially - they are somewhat apprehensive about Microsoft's new fervor for license enforcement.

    They're seriously considering a move from their current student lab environment (Win 9x with Novell Netware) to a Linux thin client environment - what would basically be X terms. This has huge resource allocation advantages and because it's open source - the licensing restrictions are few if any.

    This could literally save them millions over the next few years (The hardware life cycle for thin clients is considerable longer, and new server hardware, while expensive, is cheaper than buying several hundred new desktops every few years - not to mention say $100 dollars per system savings against XP Pro licenses)

    That millions could keep them afloat in thin times, or could mean that they can provide scholarships to needy students.

    See related: K12 Linux Project [k12.or.us]
  • by Luminous ( 192747 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @02:07PM (#2732859) Journal
    I know of one school in particular, the school my boss sends her kid to, that has benefited tremendously. My boss is a Microsoft devotee and has scoffed at the Free Software movement, until she went to a school meeting and realized the computer lab that was donated (just the systems and OS nothing else) wasn't up and running yet. The reason was the school didn't have the money for Microsoft Office.

    Long story short, she told me, I pointed her to StarOffice and a few other apps that are readily available. It wasn't a difficult sell, because it was the difference between getting use out of the computers or just teaching Windows. The school wouldn't have 'collapsed' without the free software and they would have gotten the money for the applications next year, but now they can use that money to implement a replacement program for the systems they already have.

    All of this goes back to the fact that there is a bias against Free licenses on software. My boss always considered them to be amateurish, less reliable, than the NAME BRAND software. Not anymore.
  • I doubt that you could find a case of a school keeping it's doors open when it otherwise would have closed because of free software. Personally, I would hope that a school would stop using computers before it stopped teaching, but that's just my opinion.


    Realistically though, free software has made a huge impact. I think the most obvious exmaple to me is the use of GCC in college classes. Hundreds of colleges use it that otherwise might not be able to teach courses behind computers. (note: you don't need a computer to teach C or C++ or to learn it, plenty of people have done it that way, I think it's a bit more enjoyable with a computer though) Compilers on multiuser UNIX systems are traditionally very expensive, as are site licenses to compilers under Windows.


    I also think that there is a behind the scenes factor that has always been very hard to measure with linux. I know that my old school district, Boulder Valley Public Schools, has several Linux machines in various capacities. A couple are used as lan servers in some schools, a couple are used as firewalls and proxys and email and web servers. I'm certain that some act as bridges and routers. That's stuff that makes their life easier, serves a purpose and it's really hard to measure. Off the shelf firewalls can cost thousands of dollars. I have no idea how much it costs to buy the hardware, software and then hire someone to build you an exchange server for email or setup an email server with something non-linux.


    As for teaching software and that kind of thing, I think it's still in the infancy.

  • by Hiro Antagonist ( 310179 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @02:30PM (#2732980) Journal
    You'll have better luck looking at schools in Europe, especially Germany, France, and the U.K. The U.S. public school system moves about as quickly as a lowered Honda Civic in an off-road rally race; and, in my experience, most public school IS/IT administrators know less about computers than John Ashcroft does about electron field dynamics. This is why few high schools have local area networks or decent internet access, and why fewer still have classes in things as simple as programming in Basic.

    Since U.S. schools aren't adeqately funded by the government, they gobble up as much of the private-sector "technology money" as they can possibly gorge themselves on; a signifigant chunk of which comes in the form of discounted licenses for Microsoft software. Kind of ironic that the school still has to buy the computers to run the software (and keep them updated); but I guess by reducing their profit margin from 99.998% to 98%, Microsoft has done their part. Those computers have to be upgraded pretty regularly, of course, and some of the money for that comes from "less worthwhile" programs -- like English, Art, Music, and History.

    We are raising a generation of Americans that won't know the difference between a verb and a posessive pronoun, but they'll be able to use the Word grammar-checker, so it all works out in the end, right?

    These, among other reasons, are why the U.S. imports its computer engineers from Europe and southeast Asia.

    By contrast, European schools don't get the same deep discounts, and the foreign-language support in Windows is pretty horrible (although W2K has made some signifigant improvements in this area). European schools (at least in the three countries mentioned above) are supported wholly by the state, and as such don't require outside funding. This means that, for the most part, the software and hardware are chosen to fit the needs of the instructors and students, rather than to fit the discounts, freebies, and funding-with-strings requirements assigned by the technology companies.

    This is why you'll find SuSE, Mandrake, and Debian pretty heavily used in many European schools (and thus, businesses).

    But that's just my opinion; I could be wrong.
  • by freebsd guy ( 543937 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @02:30PM (#2732985)
    About two years ago, my son's grade school upgraded their computer lab and, as a concerned parent, I was on the advisory committee for that. Originally they had planned to do an all-NT installation for security and usability reasons, but we did a cost-benefit analysis and found that the licensing would have cost us an arm and a leg.

    So, we arrived at a compromise: although I wanted a straight FreeBSD shop, we settled for Linux on the desktops and FreeBSD on the servers, provided that the Linux USB support and stability improved. We still use the 2.2 kernel series with backported USB support, and are running FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE on all of the servers (which, by the way, have not been rebooted since they were installed).

    When the numbers came in, we found that we were able to afford 20 extra computer systems (!) by not paying the Microsoft tax. Also, we were able to hire a sysadmin very cheap who works remotely (he has been banned from the school grounds), and found in our analysis that we would have needed to pay about three times as much to get the MCSEs that it would have taken to keep an NT shop running smoothly.

    So, the school board wins and the kids win with Open Source. That is the way it should be.

    freebsd guy

  • by hether ( 101201 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @02:31PM (#2732986)
    I can see plenty of problems with implementing Linux in schools, especially when I think about how it would go in my local district.

    1. All the teachers know Windows. My bet is that even many of the computer teachers do not know Linux well enough to run it in their labs. They can't teach it if they don't know it and teacher training could be expensive and take a lot of what's probably considered unnecessary time.

    2. They would have a lot harder teaching a completely new OS AND classes on how to use the programs than to just teach the programs. You'd probably have to have a intro to Linux class before you could ever teach whichever programs you choose to use - and that's another issue in itself.

    3. Students probably have Windows at home. Would they have problems with converting documents between systems? Say you create your report in Word at home, could your bring it school and use it there?

    4. The local tech support and computer stores would not be able to help them if something went wrong. 99% of the techs around here don't know anything about anything other than Windows. Who would know enough about Linux to help them??

    5. The students would learn programs and OSes that would different with what they would have when they go to college, go to work, etc. Since there are very few offices and colleges using entirely Linux, they would be at a disadvantage right away.

    Of course there are a lot of plusses too, but these negatives sprang to mind right away. Of course they are all refutable. I think that the schools would choose easy and expensive over difficult and cheap any day. If they didn't have a choice and were nearly out of money, my guess is they would let the computers sit/
    • Let's take a look at this point by point.

      1. All the teachers know Windows. My bet is that even many of the computer teachers do not know Linux well enough to run it in their labs. They can't teach it if they don't know it and teacher training could be expensive and take a lot of what's probably considered unnecessary time.

      What you really mean to say is that all of the teachers know how to log on and fire up Word. Most teachers don't really know anything about Windows administration. That's why the computers in most classrooms work poorly.

      This simply means that whatever Linux front end was offered would have to be similar to Windows. It would have to be at least as similar as Windows XP is to Windows 95. For the simple things both KDE and Gnome can be set up so that the teachers wouldn't miss a beat.

      2. They would have a lot harder teaching a completely new OS AND classes on how to use the programs than to just teach the programs. You'd probably have to have a intro to Linux class before you could ever teach whichever programs you choose to use - and that's another issue in itself.

      Once again. The teachers aren't teaching the students to use the OS. Most teachers don't even know that right clicking on objects gives them a different menu. Teachers are teaching students to "click on the Word icon" and then word process. If you created icons for the StarOffice programs you would be 90% of the way there.

      3. Students probably have Windows at home. Would they have problems with converting documents between systems? Say you create your report in Word at home, could your bring it school and use it there?

      This is already a problem. Even if you have Windows. Many students who have computers don't have MS Office (it's expensive), and if they do have MS Office there is a good chance that they have an older version like Office 95 that won't open the newer formats (easily). With a switch to Linux the school could easily (and inexpensively) hand out copies of StarOffice for Windows or Linux (it's free).

      4. The local tech support and computer stores would not be able to help them if something went wrong. 99% of the techs around here don't know anything about anything other than Windows. Who would know enough about Linux to help them??

      This, in my opinion, is the one legitimate point. However, the answer to this is to not roll out Linux PCs but instead to have one Linux server and a pile of thin-clients. That way all the local tech would have to do is throw out the old thin-client and plug in the new one. My guess is that the current Windows administrator could easily learn to be a fairly competent Linux admin if they didn't have to worry about all of the failed client PCs. He/She would have a whole lot more time on their hands with only one machine to administer.

      5. The students would learn programs and OSes that would different with what they would have when they go to college, go to work, etc. Since there are very few offices and colleges using entirely Linux, they would be at a disadvantage right away.

      Anyone that can learn to use StarOffice will have no trouble using MS Office (and vice versa). These applications are nearly identical.

      Of course there are a lot of plusses too, but these negatives sprang to mind right away. Of course they are all refutable. I think that the schools would choose easy and expensive over difficult and cheap any day. If they didn't have a choice and were nearly out of money, my guess is they would let the computers sit

      And that's precisely the information that is needed to sell schools on Free Software. Demonstrate to them how much easier it would be for them to administer one Linux server and a pile of disposable ThinkNics and you can bet that they will sit up and listen. At the very least public schools should be giving StarOffice a look. It would save them a bundle in licensing, and will even run on their existing Windows systems.

    • 3. Students probably have Windows at home. Would they have problems with converting documents between systems? Say you create your report in Word at home, could your bring it school and use it there?

      That's nothing, sonny. Why, back in my day, we had Windows at home and Apples in the schools. We had to pay for everything, we couldn't work on the same document at home and at school then either, and we liked it!
  • It's kind of funny how SourceForge and NewsForge were linked to... But the site that I've never even HEARD of before was completely omitted.

    SCHOOLFORGE [schoolforge.net]
  • by sterno ( 16320 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @02:35PM (#2733003) Homepage
    In reading some of the case studies on this, it looks like the biggest use for Linux is in two realms:

    1) Servers - file sharing, web servers, e-mail, etc
    2) Making old machines useful again

    A lot of schools have old 486's and Pentium lying around which are pretty much useless as a Windows desktop, but set these systems up as X-terminals and throw a sub $1000 server behind it, and suddenly they are rejuvenated. This also has the benefit of making the management of these systems much easier.

    I know I've seen a number of initatives where some politician gets the bright idea that the secret to making schools better is to buy a lot of hardware. This usually helps for a little while, but then in 3 or 4 years the hardware becomes nearly useless and nobody's throwing more money at it. By going with Linux, it seems like they can extend the value of that initial investment a lot further and thus save hugely in the long run.
  • Here in Hong Kong there's a similar project [info.gov.hk](in Chinese) like ' PCs for Kids'. At first I thought it's doomed, until I know Microsoft is involved.

    Well Microsoft does not alway mean to charity - especially when a shiny Microsoft logo is behind it.
  • **volunteer** (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Erich ( 151 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @02:56PM (#2733106) Homepage Journal
    I think that most of us that use linux on a regular basis know that given a good setup (reliable server with a bunch of diskless netboot clients, all running KDE or Gnome or whatever with SomethingOffice installed, and doing an autoRPM or apt-get upgrade every few days automatically, and a nice fast postscript laser printer) know that a good setup can require basically ZERO administration after setup (and not too hard to set up for someone who knows what she is doing).

    The problem is that when someone in the education system goes to CompUSA or their local Mom and Pop computer store, they don't get someone who will set them up with that sort of thing.

    So here is what you need to do: volunteer your time. Set up that computer network for your school, especially those of you with children in it.

    You can also help the school with find good deals on businesses wanting to get rid of equipment ... those old PII 233's that they don't want to use anymore can be a big tax writeoff for them, and would work fine as a diskless workstation.

    But the problem is that most school teachers don't have much of a clue in the realm of computers. They don't know how to make a dozen half-broken computers into a lab. So volunteer your time and help them get set up!

  • Our district (K-12) uses open-source and free software fairly extensively. In the past year, we have:
    -- moved all web and e-mail servers from NT to RedHat Linux 6.2
    -- put in FreeBSD 4.x-based firewalls in all the high schools and admin buildings
    -- replaced the IBM NetVista Proxy Server software running on NT with proxy servers running RH 6.2, Squid, DansGuardian, and the like
    -- implemented a very successful pilot of the Linux Terminal Server Project thin-clients in two elementary school labs (one school only uses Windows on administration desktops)
    -- promoted StarOffice 5.2 as an alternative to MS Office, on both Windows and Linux
    -- most IT desktops run either FreeBSD, RH Linux, or both

    Currently, all servers in the district run either FreeBSD, Linux, or NetWare. There are no NT servers left in the district.

    Most computer labs run Windows 95/98, a couple 2000, and one or two are still running 3.1. Some are now running Linux, with more planned for next year.

    The goal is to have all elementary school labs running Linux, all servers to be running FreeBSD or Linux, and all high school Internet access to be policed by Unix servers.

    Working quite well for us. Saved $30,000 is licensing fees so far (that's for the IBM software), enough to hire another tech if needed. Should see greater savings as time goes on. Also were able to purchase 200+ lower-end PCs for the elem labs as opposed to just 30 high end machines -- that's close to 30 labs for the price of one -- as the elem labs will be running Unix.

    The interesting thing here is that the teachers and principals are behind this 100%, and are clamoring to get their labs set up. It's too bad there are only 5 techs for 50+ schools. :(
  • The Networked Writing Environment [ufl.edu] would probably exist without free (freedom or beer) software, but the applications available to students would be very limited. We have 150 seats in five classrooms, using thin clients (SunRays, NCDs, etc) with Solaris servers.

    If we spent only $100 per seat on software, that would be $15K -- and I bet replacing StarOffice, The Gimp, our HTML editor, tkMOO-lite, exmh, Xplore, and other applications would cost a lot more than that. Not to mention that Solaris is free (beer) for educational use.

    I'm sure there are also cost savings from using the client/server model instead of 150 workstations. We have two system administrators and one half-time graduate student, and a few hangers-on like me who poke stuff around when time allows. :)

    The NWE has been around since 1995. With education budget cuts in Florida reaching into the hundreds of millions this year, and maybe more next year, I don't see the Solaris/free software setup being replaced with a non-free model anytime soon.

    cbd

  • free software (Score:2, Informative)

    DO college's count, becuase here at The Cooper union [cooper.edu] most of the stuff we run is Win95 and Red Hat Linux. Mostly becuase this school does not charge tution, does it see the value in running Free software like Linux. They've made it work rather well. and espcially since all the computers are at least 5 years old.
  • by pnelson ( 411151 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @03:24PM (#2733292) Homepage
    http://k12ltsp.org/classroom.html [k12ltsp.org]

    It works, it's fast, it's free, we like it.

  • by jcuzzola ( 545293 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @03:54PM (#2733518)
    We have been successful in installing three Linux labs (approx 35 computers per lab) with Open Source software using the computers as thin clients (see LTSP.org). The system has been received very well by students and teachers. We were even able to give 486SXs with as little as 12Megs ram internet access - these systems are now in the classroom. We have approx. 10 schools scheduled for conversion to Linux by the end of 2002 with the goal of having all our elementary schools (60+) switched over in three. It's always an uphill battle but I feel we're fighting "the good fight". When they(Microsoft & others) tell you every open source initiative has failed tell them otherwise. I equate Microsoft with the movie "The Matrix" in which everyone goes on with their everyday lives while only a small liberated few no the truth. Our Linux Labs have worked better than anything Windows has ever given us for a cost that can't be beat.

    John Cuzzola
    jcuzzola@sd73.bc.ca
    1383-9th Avenue
    System Analyst/Programmer
    Kamloops, BC V2C 3X7
    School District #73
    Phone: (250) 374-0679
  • by tyrani ( 166937 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @04:50PM (#2733928)
    I am the system administrator for a moderatly sized private elementry school. When I started, the school had very few computing resources at it's 2 campuses. After making a list of what I wanted to accompish in 2 years, I added up the costs and found that they it would be beyod my budget to buy new workstations and build a dedicated server all based on commercial software.

    Here's what I've been able to create for the school:

    1 workstation for every 4 children
    So when a class is in the library there is 1 student per computer. They all run win98.

    I am working towards 1 laptop for each teacher
    So far there is 2, they are wirelessly 802.11b connected to the network.

    A dedicated Red Hat 7.2 server
    Squid proxy, web page filtering and monitoring [onda.com.br] Squirrel Mail IMAP web based e-mail [squirrelmail.org], samba, LDAP student/teacher contact and vital information, a MySQL powered bookmark database, Apache Web server, and a digital picture gallery [menalto.com].

    Everything on the server is open source and works flawlessly. All of this would have cost a fortune to buy and maintain on a NT server.

    I am very interested in what software other people are running if they are doing the same thing that I am. Reply to this comment or e-mail me with what you run, I'd love to share tips.
  • by John Murdoch ( 102085 ) on Thursday December 20, 2001 @05:13PM (#2734080) Homepage Journal

    Hi!

    The scene: "Public Comment" time at a school board meeting. The previous speaker, a senior citizen, has spoken at length about the burden of school taxes on the elderly in the community. He has particularly emphasized his opposition to the blatantly gold-plated technology proposals in the school budget (including the 4--count 'em, 4! PDAs for the district IT staff). Then the school board's self-designated Taxpayer Advocate clears his throat, and says, "Y'know, I was talking to our IT director at work the other day, and we're getting rid of a bunch of computers. Some are 486s, but a lot are Pentiums--we could provide a lot of those machines to the district at little or no cost....

    ...And another dumb IT decision is in the offing. Lots of people want to donate their downstreamed equipment to the schools. Sometimes they genuinely think they're doing good: most of the time they're trying to claim a tax credit for the contribution, and will "suggest" valuations for each machine that they drop off. All too often those donations cost the district actual cash--because you have to pay a HazMat hauler to take the monitors these days.

    Linux and other free (as in beer) software may well have a place in education. There is a very powerful argument, for instance, for creating an Office-type suite with extensive classroom management tools. Given that school environments can be extraordinarily hostile (think of the kinds of behavior that occurs in a middle school classroom if the teacher steps out into the hall) there is a persuasive argument to be made for a robust platform like (ahem) FreeBSD.

    But. Please please please do not even think of saddling the poor, overworked techs at your local school district with your worn-out, leftover, good-for-nothing junk. You are doing them no favors, you are doing no good to the district, and you are probably preventing adoption of a well-thought-through technology plan by "donating" your scrap equipment.

    Computers in schools
    I'm on the Technology Committee of the Nazareth (Pa.) Area School District [k12.pa.us]. We've played out that scenario at the top of this post several times. We have had several area companies offer to donate their scrap to us. We have had several board members get positively indignant that we have spurned those offers. We did spurn those offers, and if I have any say in the matter we will continue to spurn those offers--here's why.

    This is a hostile environment
    Suppose your employer decides to install a new computer system. And suppose a computer-phobic customer service rep decides that he doesn't want to use the new system. Your employer has a simple remedy: fire the CSR. Doesn't work that way in American schools: if you want the teacher to use a computer, you have to persuade her/him.

    This is a hostile environment #2
    Teachers (no surprise, right?) don't want to look stupid in front of their students. But the kids are substantially more adept with computers than the teachers--so the teachers have a built-in ambivalence (at best) about computers.

    So we have to persuade teachers to use a device that potentially can humiliate them in front of their students. How?
    From hard-won experience, the district IT staff has to offer absolutely bullet-proof reliability. They have to be able to guarantee--and deliver on that guarantee--that the computers will be there, working flawlessly, whenever the teacher wants. No reboots, no network hassles, no video driver conflicts (elementary teachers probably use more video games than CmdrTaco), no need to get an MSCE in order to teach 3rd grade. In other words, the district IT staff has to provide Service Level Agreement-style functionality.

    But...
    do you think this means that anybody is willing to pay for a district IT staff? Funny boy--the school board will fund an extra assistant to the wrestling program in a heartbeat, but they won't spend a dime for a part-time LAN geek unless you do some major politicking. So what IT staff you have (4100 students, 450 employees, 7 buildings over 80 square miles, 3.5 IT staff) have to make do with what they have.

    Which means...
    They have to standardize, standardize, standardize. Every elementary classroom has to have the same video cards; every machine has to have the same network adapter; every machine in the high school has to have the same monitor. They have to develop a formalized bug-tracking system to identify recurring problems, and they have to take a systemic view of the entire IT picture in order to maintain 100% uptime. Because if they provide less than 100% uptime the teachers will stop using the system, and the parents will start calling the school board. And so forth....

    So please...
    Don't "do the kids a favor" and ship them junk. If you want to make a meaningful donation, call the school district and ask if you can give them the money to buy another one of their reference desktops. If they're running Windows, hold your nose and buy Windows. If they're running a bunch of out-of-date kiddie games, hold your nose and buy the out-of-date kiddie games. Do not make their lives miserable by sending them leftovers, or by going out to Circuit City and buying a $399 special. (God save the IT staff from the enthusiasm of the PTA.)

    If you want to champion Open Source in the schools
    Don't go preaching Linux as religion. Get involved, go to meetings, be prepared to make a reasonable case, and be prepared to argue for a complete replacement of the entire district IT infrastructure. And be prepared for war from the elementary teachers and the PTA: elementary school software runs on Windows, period. If you want to replace it, you'd best have a bunch of kids games tested and ready to go.

    Bottom line:
    Computers are crucial to education in the 21st century. I teach in a graduate program, and I'm constantly amazed at the number of MBA students with only the faintest glimmer of understanding about computers and technology. But the route to learning about computers and technology is not with leftover junk--it is with a carefully-developed, meticulously-managed, (and yes, sometimes rigidly enforced) IT plan that promises a "100% school time up time" service level, and delivers it. If the users can trust that the computers will be there, they will learn. If they can't trust the computers, they will learn to hate them.

He has not acquired a fortune; the fortune has acquired him. -- Bion

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