Fast Track to a CS Degree?

kyrex asks: "it's been 5 years since I've been working in the tech industry and I've make great progress. My salary has grown by an annual rate of about 50% and I'm currently working as a consultant in a leading consulting firm. But not having received any formal education in Computer Science, and therefore having no degree will be a problem for further progress. I've considered many options but they all take time: at least 3 years. I've been programming since I was 12 (I'm currently 24) and have read hundreds of CS books. I think that I can easily complete a CS degree in 1 year. I want to know if there are universities/institutions out there that offers computer professionals like me a fast track to a CS degree that will be recognised as such by other universities (so that I can continue with a MSc afterwards)"

Paper

[ZaneMcAuley]

Its unfortunate that so many people value pieces of paper with writing on them.

There are many great people out there hindered by this belief.

I dont think all companies and organisations within the industry are that judgemental. Most companies have theyre own rating system internally.

Stick with them.
Make yourself valueable to them.

What about system and network security?

[Nintendork]

Is a CCIE and CISSP enough or would a BS make all the difference in the world? Most grads I talked to don't have a good understanding of computers unless it's also their hobby which leads me to believe that a BS is just to get your foot in the door when you have no real talent.

Re:What for?

[Bonker]

Here is a real good example...

In the 70's, the DOE's Pantex Nuclear Weapons facility in the Texas Panhandle fired dozens of experienced scientists with proven track records... simply because they did not have degrees.

Re:Paper

[webword]

Smart people don't value the paper, the value what the paper represents. To some it represents time and dedication. When focus on a subject for many years, you do learn a few things that experience won't give you. You don't explicitly learn theories, for example. That's a shame, since theories can help guide you in a different way thatn experience. Sometimes theory is better than experience, sometimes not.

Like it or not, a degree indicates that the person has at least some formal knowledge of material. Formal knowledge is no joke. It helps you recognize good form from bad form. Formal knowledge leads to understanding structures and architectures and other complex things.

Education itself is always behind corporations. It is behind technology in general and it seems out of date, almost immediately. However, the idea is to learn core principles. Tools and techniques for solving problems. Therefore, some of the best technical people will have degrees in areas like psychology and philosophy. (I've seen this again and again. Many technical degrees are inferior to non-technical degrees even though the person is in a technical field!)

Don't be foolish: Degrees are not the only thing companies use to judge people. They also look at pure technical skills, previous work experience, and so forth. A degree is only one part of the equation.

There are also some people out there who simply love to learn. They go to school to learn quickly or learn deeply. This idea is insane to mose people because it doesn't always translate to money. Oh well...!

Don't rush it.

[Alioth]

Well, in my ever so humble opinion...

You've probably already got a good enough track record that to continue doing what you're doing and continuing advancing won't really be a problem. BUT...

Don't just go for a fast-track degree - i.e. don't go for a degree 'cos you need a bit of paper. Do the three or four years. Don't just take classes on the narrow subject that your career is - use university as an opportunity to take a sabattical from the world of work and get a broader knowledge of more things.

Although I went to university after only working for one year, I decided not to take a course that narrowly focused on only technical subjects. I'm a software developer - yet I took a BA degree, not a BSc.

I really enjoyed university, and I'm glad I didn't just race through on a fast track.

I had this problem, and here is what I did...

[Frums]

I faced an almost identical problem recently but managed to work around going back for (another) BS. Assuming you have a bachelors (which you imply through ommission, making a point of having "no formal CS education"), getting into and finishing a Master's program is probably your ideal path.

This is, in fact, not terribly difficult. Most programs don't exactly leep for joy over people with primarily work experioence, but if you are willing to take 4-6 undergrad level classes, or demonstrate competence in them by test) and can do reasonably well on the GRE Computer Science Subject Test (brush up on your theory!), you can get into mid-range schools without a lot of difficulty.

There are quite a few benefits of going straight to a master's degree as well: an MSCS is *very* respected on a resume, managers generally give more credit to a Master's than it warrants (unless they have one, and MBA's don't count), it is generally a much shorter program (9-12 classes compared to 24-32 for a BS) and doesn't force you to take the assorted crap you are not interested in (disclaimer: I hold an undergrad degree in English, and believe in a LA education, if done right it is the best thing for you - most people use the flexibility to avoid challenge though, and they discredit it), and finally, the MS classes tend to be a whole lot more interesting than undergrad classes, and the students and profs are a lot more interested in learning/teaching than the typical undergrad.

I wish you luck.

-Frums

Re:I'm sure its already been said many times

[Anonymous Coward]

"[T]he university I attended... offered NO challenge to me.... [S]everal people who used to work here had college degrees in CS from respectable colleges... [and] couldn't cut it".

Those are the two standard responses to any debate about the value of a degree, but they tend to be more prevelant in discussions with IT folks [probably because IT folks (including myself and, obviously, you) are more arrogant about their intelligence and skills than your average skilled or unskiled laborer). Well, that's fine and dandy - in the short run. In the long run, as you attempt to advance in your career, you're presumably going to be competing for promotions and raises with better and better people. These people are going to be just as skilled as you are, for the most part. At this point, things that seemed insignificant, like a college degree, will start to make all the difference in the world.

I still stand by my original point - not having a degree will seriously hinder your advancement. You weren't challenged in college? Great. Now that you work somewhere that will pay for your education, why don't you go get your degree? And, to make it more of a challenge or more interesting, get it in a field completely unrelated to what you currently do. Try Economics, History, or anything else that piques your interest. You'll be even better off than if you went and got a CS degree, because you will have proven that you are a well rounded individual and thus more likely to be a profitable employee.

ACCIS

[enjo13]

The American Institute for the Computer and Information Sciences is a correspondence based school. The curriculm in my experience is well thought out and the quality of the education is top notch. It is a completely rounded degree (meaning it is more than a simple programming school) and I have found that businesses tend to treat it like any other degree. I highly reccomend it in your case. It will grant credit based on "life experience" to recognize the value of the experience you have already gained.

http://www.accis.edu

Computer Science != programming

[jwsmith00]

You'll quickly find out that computer science has very little to do with programming. When I did my CS, some of the better programmers flunked out and went into other things.

Computer Science is about science. Pure and simple. It's about mathematics and theory. To many CS people, Calculus is a breeze. Or what I call "The Easy Math" that is usually required in first year. You'll take as much (if not more) math in your CS degree. Subjects like logic, set theory, finite mathematics, linear algebra, number theory, etc. On their own, these courses can be easy.... but if you have 5 or 6 other courses, programming assignments that you work on until 3am, and all the other things in Univerity, you quickly begin to have respect for computer science grads.

Of course this depends on the school :))

Some of the math you'll need for a CS degree

[ARR0]

As a mathematician-turned-programmer who's also been programming since the age of 12 (which adds up to a few more years total in my case) and as somebody who's seen a LOT of badly written code in my time, I can tell you that a couple of years' worth of college-level mathematics courses will make you a much better programmer. Here's a few courses you should definitely have under your belt:

* Calculus (usually 3 semesters)
* Linear Algebra
* Discrete Mathematics (generally a mixed bag with some combinatorics and graph theory)

and of course any prerequisites to the courses above that you didn't get in high school.

In addition, here's some courses that would be useful, some in particular areas:

* Abstract algebra
* Number theory
* Geometry (not high-school geometry)
* Real analysis (sometimes called advanced calculus)

Good luck--it'll be worth it.

Finland's system

[Anonymous Coward]

In Finland, the higher education system has been designed so that there are no minimum residence requirements, nor do you have to attend classes in most CS courses. The record time for a Master's degree at the Helsinki University of Technology is about two years. A significant percentage of CS students go to work the year round. Despite claims to the contrary, the system seems to work well for the best students, giving them a combination of theoretical and practical knowledge. Alternatively, you could get 2 degrees simultaneously, etc. After all, why sit in classes if you think you can study more productively at home reading a book? Studies have shown that hearing somebody talk is an extremely ineffective way of disseminating knowledge.

Problem solving skills

[Fastolfe]

I completely agree.. I did not complete my engineering degree, but the time I spent working on it was very valuable nonetheless. Any Joe Coder can read CS books and gain the necessary intelligence to do a job, but a good university program also teaches you the wisdom to know how and when to apply what you've learned. Some of this can be learned by practical on-the-job application, but I tend to find that people with an engineering/science degree tend to find their niche in a new position faster than someone self-taught. A self-taught coder tends to learn how to do things well "their way" and has difficulty adapting to the requirements of a client or maintaining focus on a project not directly in their line of focus. Of course, these are enormous generalizations and will vary widely depending on the nature of the person, but this is my experience.

In addition, the engineering classes I took weren't really valuable for the formulae and math. I found them valuable for the problem-solving skills they taught. I don't believe even science degrees approach this sort of problem solving, and I find that those with some sort of engineering background (or a "hard" science like Physics) generally make for better programmers, administrators and architects of IT shops.

Re:Paper

[SVDave]

Like it or not, a degree indicates that the person has at least some formal knowledge of material. Formal knowledge is no joke. It helps you recognize good form from bad form. Formal knowledge leads to understanding structures and architectures and other complex things.

When I was a kid, growing up in Silicon Valley (I'm 30 now), I heard a lot about how brilliant engineers at companies like Apple did really wonderful things without having a formal college education (nevertheless, I went to college)

Towards the end of grad school I bought some books on programming the Macintosh, as I had just gotten myself a Mac laptop. Having studied operating systems at both the undergrad and graduate level, and having programmed my Amiga and the school's Unix systems for years, I was shocked when I read what the internals of the Mac OS (then System 7) were like. They looked like what someone with a lot of Apple II experience would have designed: global system variables in known, fixed, publically-accessible locations (just like my old Commodore 64!), all user-level programs ran in supervisor mode, etc. The original Macintosh was a fine piece of work, with an innovative GUI. However, it would have been really nice if someone who had gone to college and studied operating systems (of which there were plenty in Berkeley, an hour's drive away) had been there to keep the OS team from making some really stupid design decisions.

UMUC: Excel Program

[big_cat79]

The University of Maryland University College, which I attend, has something called the Excel Program. Basically, it is a 3 hour class that will help you write a paper describing what you have done in your career and how it relates to the school's classes. A committee reviews your paper, and you can earn up to 27 credits plus 3 for the class, for a total of 30. That is about a quarter of the 120 you need for you degree. In addition, CLEP tests for your basic English, History, and Science courses can speed things up, at the cost of about $50 per test. Also, for more advanced courses (say, at the 300 and 400 level) you can take departmental exams for a course. Basically, you take the final exam, and if you get a C or higher, you get the credits, but no grade. They cost something too, but I forget how much right off hand. Doing all that has gotten 3 years of school crammed into 2 for me, and I almost have my BS in Information Systems Mgmt.

Not at a good school

[NerdSlayer]

I've recently graduated from CMU with a CS degree. My senior year we wrote a kernel, a filesystem and a shell (or about 90% of an operatiing system).

That class alone killed about 40 hours a week, so while you might be able to learn Pascal at your local community college in a year, don't expect to get a world class education like you would at MIT or CMU in 1 year, no matter how many books you've read.

Most of my classes involved minimal programming, and a lot of theory (OS being the exception). Have you read a lot of books on probability, set theory and matrix algebra? Have you read any books on modern math? Algorithms (which involved no programming, all proofs)? NFA's and DFA's? Context Free Grammers?

I had a Java reference book and a C reference book while I was at CMU, every other book was theoretical.

I don't think so

[truesaer]

I'm a CS major at the University of Michigan, and I've only taken 1 programming course, and I don't think I'll be taking another. In my particular degree there is a lot of math. Three calc courses, probability (based on calc, so you have to have taken all calcs first), two discrete math courses (one based on the other plus a bunch of basic CS courses). If you want CE instead of CS there is even more math, plus required physics and maybe chemestry. Other classes are on algorithm analysis, and deep background stuff like circuit design, processor design, and the basic level mechanics of databases, networks, etc. Many of these are electives, but the point is you're not likely to have the level of knowledge required from experience alone even if you have read books on the subject.

Then there are distribution courses. For CS you need about 80 credits of other stuff, compared to around 40 for your concentration. It breaks down like this: 7 credits each of social science, humanities, natural science, plus 3 more credits in three of these categories: natural science, humanities, social science, math, creative expressing. You must have 4th semester proficiency in a foreign language. You have to take two writing classes, one involving several substantial papers. And there are several other requirements.

Point is, I think it is tough. You don't seem to have much respect for degrees since you're doing well without one, so this kind of program probably isn't a good option. I would just look for a really shitty school that will do anything to get students. It may be worthless, but a degree from a crappy school doesn't matter once you've proved yourself with experience.

Not having a degree will become a big problem though, so maybe you should just take a few years off and enjoy yourself in college. At my internship this summer the company had a guy who didn't have a degree who had been working as a contract employee for 14 years. He was making substantially less in salary and had much much worse benefits. It is nearly impossible to hire non-degree tech people at many companies, and you may want to apply to one of those companies someday. So just think this: Drinking and girls. Take 4 years off and do it right (can do three years if you go for 2 summer sessions, maybe less 2.5 if you take heavy courseloads).

Do you HAVE to have a CS degree?

[restive]

Try RIT (Rochester Institute of Technology). I'm in a similar position as you (young, pretty well paid, no degree). RIT has a few very good degree programs online (none in CS specifically), including one with an Applied Computing concentration, which is what I am about 1 year away from completing. The school is reputable, the education is extremely good, and you might be able to CLEP through a lot of it. They also have Graduate degrees of sorts.
http://online.rit.edu

At least it keeps you from being held hostage by a school for 4 years. You can work at the same time.

Re:What about the humanities

[rjkimble]

Although I agree with you completely, just check around among all your associates with the humanities/liberal arts degress, and find out just how much science/math/engineering they have taken. What gets me with the current state of the academic world is that it's unconscionable to allow a scientist or engineer to graduate without an appropriate number of humanities courses to "balance" his or her education, but it's perfectly OK to let a humanities major graduate with essentially no math or science or engineering courses whatever. In fact, they're lucky if they have taken a high-school-level algebra or "pre" calculus course for the entire math requirement and/or an astronomy-for-poets course as their science requirement. These same people then complain that their degrees have not prepared them for life in the technology-heavy modern business world. It's a joke.

Re:no dice!

[singularity]

For the most part, there is a definite corollation between having the degree and having a certain set of skills. Yes, it is entirely possible to have this set of skills (and the resulting mentality) without going to college. It is fairly rare, however.

In some companies, mostly smaller ones where you "know the ownner," you can prove this without the degree. Any company larger than that, however, is going to require a degree simply because they do not have the time and ability to check for these things. Far easier to just check for the degree and assume (checking in the interview) that the required skills are there. This is not a decision based in laziness, but rather economics. It is cheaper to just check for the degree, and it is cheaper not to risk training a high-school grad.

My point? The degree opens up an awful lot. You may be able to advance in a company that is small enough to assess your abilities without the degree, but changing companies will be difficult.

It seems to me that so many people without their degree on this thread seem to be saying "the degree is just a chance for THE MAN to keep people in line." Have you ever thought that, perhaps, a well-rounded college education is actually a benifitial thing?

There also seems to be a lot of "I was able to do it, so you should too." Wrong. If the guy is in a company that will not allow it, that is not going to change. he could change companies, but that is going to require him proving himself to the new company (since he does not have the degree) before he is able to prove that he is worthy of advancement.

Re:Yeah but B.S.of A. hates gays. Just proves...

[CoreDump]

No, it only proves the BSA national executives in Texas are narrow-minded assholes. I'm an Eagle Scout, I support my local Boy Scout Troop. Their views ( those national retards in Texas ) are *not* the views of all Scouts, anymore than Bush's views on stem-cell research and abortion are representative of all Americans.

Thanks for jumping to conclusions, and helping to re-inforce negative stereotypes.

Note that I'm *not* an Anonymous Coward, so feel free to reply to that. I'm willing to put my name behind my views. Glad to see that you're able to keep thinking independantly yourself. Way to keep an open mind.

What I am doing...

[NOT-2-QUICK]

My personal situation is much akin to that of the individual who submitted this question to Slashdot. I am 24 yrs old with 10+ yrs. of overall experience with computers (6+ yrs. in a professional environment...) and am currently employed by a well-known, Fortune 500 company. And, I have accomplished all of this (including a very generous salary) without the assistance of a college degree of any sort...

I am currently in the highly enviable position of working for a corporation that not only encourages it employees to seek further higher education, but actually empowers them to do so with 100% reimbursement of all tuition/books/fees associated with attending university - please don't hate me because I'm fortunate... :)

So to address the question at hand, I will simply explain my strategy for attaining my desired degrees. As many have posted prior to me (and as should be common sense...), there are **NO** degrees that are both accredited and quick - all worthwhile degrees require at least a moderate level of commitment. That said, my personal plan is to leverage the limited number of college credits that I amassed while working for the I/T department of U of D Mercy (classes were free...) to provide me with eligibility for an accelerated Bachelors program for Business Administration - this is an 18-month program and is offered at MANY business oriented universities.

So why would a computer geek need/want a Bachelor's in Business Administration??? There are actually three reasons why this was appropriate in my situation - (1) it is the most logical if you are looking for promotion to management, (2) it is the easiest, quickest bachelor's degree available, and (3) It is a fully accredited degree that can be used as a stepping stone for further post-graduate education.

It is actually this final point that makes this plan so applicable, beneficial, and practical. Once you have completed your bachelor's degree in business, you can continue on to get a Master's Degree (in roughly another 12 - 18 months if you work hard...) in a more computer/technical related area. This could be anything from E-Business to a program targeted for future CIO's.

If you are anything like me, you have no desire to sit through tedious technical classes that strive to teach you old ideas and yesterday's technology. I read books and attend conferences to maintain my up-to-date standing in the world of technology. The benefit that I can derive from attending university is that of management and people skills that most computer geeks inherently lack. As proof of concept, I have actually been premature promoted to an interim management position only weeks after divulging my educational intensions to my superiors and taking the first preliminary steps...

Best of luck to you in whatever you path you choose - ultimately, any education or form of learning will prove to be beneficial for you mind and soul!!!

- n2q

Re:no dice!

[Pig Hogger]

I've been developing software for 18 years.
...
But absolutely NO degree. Nor will I ever get one, TVM.
...

And degrees can work against you, too. A friend of mine got his PhD in nuclear physics mostly by programming collider sensors and visualization routines on a SGI workstation.

A common friend of us told him about an opening at a (insert major avionics manufacturer here) for a graphics programmer on SGI. This being his cup of tea, he applied, only to find his application rejected by the HR drones samped: "overqualified". Fortunately for my friend, a higher-up suit was able to override the HR department and he was hired.

Self educated

[unovox]

I have a problem with the presumption that someone who has acheived the CS skills required to compete successfully in the market has not or cannot have also educated themselves in math, business, the arts , other sciences etc...
Anyone who has educated themselves in these areas has far more focus, persistence, passion and discipline than most who do so with the aid of an educational institution. While tremendous resources are available at these facilities, anyone with the personal quialities to go it alone will continue educating themseleves at a much higher rate then most for whom education was something that you got in school.
Education is not something that other people do to you.
Calculus, chemistry, music....all can be learned to any degree on your own. I, and many others, are examples of those who do so out of pure curiosity about the world in which we live and passion for things that we love. I don't have a degree, never went to college, and have never been asked if I did. I, and many others, am a successful SW Engineering consultatnt who has been judged on my track record and ability to perform. To move into management...no problem. The MBA curriculum is available in books and is easy to master.....for the self educating individual.

Re:no dice!

[Anonymous Coward]

It may be worthy of note at this point that this "old school" mentality regarding college degrees did not help any of the hundreds and hundreds of companies that sprouted up in the last 5 years from going under.

It also has not helped the slide of the US economy into recession, and is doing absolutely nothing to pull it back out again.

The point is that there are complete morons with degrees, and complete morons without degrees. From personal experience in the tech field over the past 8 years, I can state unequivocably that the presence of a college degree in no way insinuates intelligence or competency.

Interestingly, over this whole recession thing, I find myself out of work. I expect to land a job in the next month or two; things are beginning to look up at this point, but I find that I am competing as a unix system administrator with 7 years experience with fresh graduates who couldnt possibly recall one difference between bash and korn shells.

Blah.

Year-long program at the U of C

[wdr1]

The University of Chicago has a year long master's program [uchicago.edu] aimed at individuals who do not have a bachelors in CS. A few of my friends went through it after their BA's and had a positive experience.

-Bill
U of C '97

Does it have to be a US degree?

[Dominic]

Why not take a course at the Open University (www.open.ac.uk)? It's as real as any other university, and you work in your own time from home (so I guess you *could* do it in a year, but I wouldn't recommend it). I'm not sure you'd be able to do it from the US, but it's worth looking at, especially as it has the additional benefits of a British degree (more detail, cheaper, etc).

Re:no dice!

[cduffy]

I was much happier at university. It's what I've been doing since in the "real world" that seems like busywork.

Okay, so your job sucks. :p

Actually, I suspect that this is far from unique -- of the six or so jobs I've held (counting the consulting gigs), only one is really better than academia. However, it's really, way, way, insanely better -- I'm working with the most talented people [mvista.com] I've ever met (not an exageration) on really sweet hardware (also true) and getting paid to implement software I both conceive of and design (yup, it's so!).

Nothing in the academic world was ever this fun, even the research projects (at least, the ones I was involved in; they were great in theory and I learned a great deal designing them, but not one ever picked up any users -- and part of my thrill of writing software is seeing it making people's lives better through use). Further, while my professors were roughly my equals (some a bit better, several much worse), my coworkers here are damn near godlike (and I hold this opinion after working with them for two and a half years).

You're right, though -- I haven't graduated, and would need three or so semesters of classes (almost all general ed, as I've finished the fun classes already) to do so. As for my school, Chico State, its CSCI program is neck and neck with that of Cal Poly San Luis -- but as good as it may be, it just doesn't touch the Real Thing.

Try Writing a GRE

[Chris Colohan]

I too started programming at 12 -- and when I graduated from high school I was not sure what I would get out of university. I was amazed at how much I didn't pick up from all the books I had read. :-)

You mention you want to go to grad school after you finish your undergrad degree. Chances are you will have to write the GRE CS subject test for your grad school application. Why not write it now, and see how you do? It might give you an approximate idea of how much computer science (as opposed to just programming) you have managed to pick up over the years.