On the Differences Between MIS/CIS/CS Degrees?

Dark Ninja asks: "I find that after having a professional IT job (C++ programmer/DBA) for four+ years, not having a degree is a hindrance to finding a job. So with this in mind, I'm planning on attending college soon, but I want to know the difference between an Management Information System, Computer Information System, and Computer Science degrees? Better yet, which ones do you suggest (ie. to allow advancement, which allows for what jobs, etc)?"

It depends on the school

[shoppa]

I'm a little bit concerned that the only reason you want to go to school is to make money. I'm hoping you change your mind after you get there and decide to follow your interests instead.

If you're a professional C++ programmer/DBA, then you'd probably be bored to tears by the "computer" classes that a MIS or CIS degree involves. That's not strictly true - there may be some good design/architecture courses which you may very well enjoy. Take a very close look at the course catalogs and graduation requirements for the schools you are looking at.

Depending on the school, the same may be true for the courses you need for a CS degree.

Don't overlook the possibility of getting a degree in something other than (or in addition to) CS/MIS/CIS. In four years it is very likely that a degree in economics or actuarial science or applied physics or EE will be the key to doing interesting and/or high-paying stuff. Or, for that matter, Eastern European literature or sociology or basketball coaching may be your true love! or

CS is the geek's degree

[Goonie]

At my alma mater, there is Computer Science, Software Engineering (another degree you might consider), and Information Systems.

CS is a math-heavy, theory-heavy degree that teaches you how to program *and* gives you a background in the mathematical foundations in computing. Whilst you might not use all of directly as a programmer, it's a) a lot of fun for some people, and b) gives you a much greater understanding of what computers can and can't do.

Software Engineering contained a pretty high overlap with CS, but they skipped some of the theoretical stuff to do more on building large software projects in teams using engineering methodologies. I remain skeptical of some of the value of this stuff, but, however, the *practical* experience, whilst rather stressful (trying to play a real software engineer when you've still got other subjects to complete imposes nasty workloads), is useful. It may be less useful for you, as you sound like you've already got a substantial amount of practical experience.

Information Systems was very light on programming. Talking to instructors in the department, it seems like most of the people who come out of it with a degree in IS can barely write a shell script. However, what they do learn is a lot of stuff about business processes and the like. In fact, from both the syllabus and the students, I got the impression that much of the course was basically a commerce degree for people interested (but not necessarily particularly gifted in) IT.

Look, I'm not knocking knowing business processes and the like, but if you like to code, it's a lot easier to learn about business later on (perhaps in an MBA) than it is to learn heavy-duty maths later in life. But then again, you might take the view that you can already code and learning about the business side of IT might be more useful to you.

They're all degrees

[Kaellenn]

The most important thing to remember about getting any of these degrees is that they are just that: degrees. Oftentimes, you'll find that the most important part of having a degree is not what the degree is in, it's that you have one.

As far as the different degrees go, to say that any one of them is better than the others is really only a matter of preference. It mostly depends on what you intend to do. Think about your true goals. If your desire is to be a great programmer, then a CS degree is probably the right choice for you. If, however, you are more the "project management" type who prefers to organize the team and the work on the project rather than doing most of the "down and dirty coding" themselves, then you should look into CIS/MIS.

Take a look through some course outline manuals provided at your college of choice. Check out the curriculum for each of the programs, and read the descriptions of the classes you'll be taking along each of those paths. This can be a great help in deciding what field you're really looking into.

One of the biggest mistakes you can make is to go for a CS degree when you really don't want to work in a "CS" environment. Make sure you fully understand the term "Computer Science" before seeking a degree in it; otherwise, you're likely to be very unhappy with your college experience.

Just remember, the most important thing is having a degree. Your chosen major often has only minor influence in your chosen profession.

Don't underestimate MIS

[cdgod]

Here in Canada the MIS degree I am finishing had plenty of programming. It is nearly impossible to finish the "Commerce with Honours in Management Information System" degree in 4 years.

It has the full compliment of Commerce courses, and with, what I would consider, 40% of the CSI courses. Some of the languages we learn are:
C++
Scheme
Lisp
Prolog
Pascal
Java
VB (yes but this is in a business course on CS)
Database Courses (PL SQL, etc)

We have to take all the advance calculus and algebra courses. We do not go into "discrete" math.

I feel confident that I can go into a any software company and start working on any of their code with some simple intros of the project.

The highly respect the MIS degree. Hell, during many of the CS labs, I was the one helping out the CS students create collections in java, and use recursion in Scheme, and inherited classes in C++

BTW: I am not done the degree yet... there is still a micro circuit/logic course and a few more Project Managment courses.

Again, it is a very well-rounded degree. You get from it what you wish to take from it.

Frank

biz vs. science

[martinflack]

When you take CS you're saying you want to be a scientist. It will come with all the subjects you'd expect from science, including some tough math, physics, etc.

When you take [MC]IS you're saying you want to be a businessperson. Similarly, it will come with subjects relevant to business, like marketing, accounting, finance, etc.

I think generally MIS and CIS are extremely close and schools tend to name them depending on their focus, or perhaps just arbitrarily.

At most institutions, you'll be in a different school based on your choice between [MC]IS vs CS so it's also worth checking out how well your schools of Business and Sciences are run, how praised the professors are, etc. For example, at my university [fgcu.edu], our College of Business is by far the best run and most popular college of the several colleges we have. Also, the Business colleges tend to be a little bit more tied into the business community at smaller schools, so if you plan to get a local job later and you like networking, you might want to go that route.

Open University?

[chazR]

It takes three years to get a degree (minimum). Do you honestly want to be poor for three years?

If you are currently hacking in C++, you are probably paid quite well. Trust me, you don't want to be poor again.

I had a similar problem. Went to university to do maths, ended up doing astrophysics, ran out of money, had to get a real job.

A few years later, I discovered you couldn't get a job without a first degree. So, I enrolled with the Open University [open.ac.uk]. I signed on for the MSc in Computing for Commerce and Industry [open.ac.uk] program. I can't speak highly enough about this course.

If you *really* want, you could get the MSc in three years. That would leave you no spare time whatsoever. Four years is attainable. Five years is the most usual.

The great thing is, you don't have to stop working. The hard thing is, it takes 1-3 hours a day of deep concentration.

You don't need a first degree before you start.

It is a *real* postgradute qualification. It's hard. You'll learn about operating systems, software engineering and programming in ways you hadn't thought about. You can do modules in anything from business and marketing to telecoms switching.

It's fun and demanding. At the end you get an MSc from a University that is highly respected globally for it's teaching.

It costs about $9000 over five years.

The best bit is, you can say to a prospective employer "I'm currently working for my Master's degree. Any chance of you helping with money/time?". This defuses the "Why haven't you got a degree?" question.

If you do the Objects couse, you get to learn Smalltalk as well. What more could you want?

Re:Computer Engineering

[peter hoffman]

The advantage of any sort of Engineering degree is that it is assumed you have learned general problem solving and will be able to do just about any job, no matter what the field. Not many (if any) undergraduate degrees carry the weight of an Engineering degree with the general population. If your degree is in Engineering you are not limited to working with computers. You will be given good consideration for nearly any position you seek.

SAN/CS vs. MIS

[CodemonKeygen]

I'm just going to start this off by saying that no matter what your degree is, you'd better be good at it if you want to get a job. A friend of mine is a CIS minor who is a better programmer than half of the students in our SAN/CS department. Though its true that he shouldn't have any problems getting jobs after his first, it is the first that is the hardest. I imagine that if he were competing for a programming job with a CS major the CS major would win handsdown because of the degree.

Now for my $.02 worth about the MIS majors at my university [muohio.edu]....
I decided to take one of our lower level CS courses on COBOL to try and kill a few hours. As it just so happened the prof. teaching is the MIS 'liason' in the CS dept. Long story short, I've never ever been in a class were the prof. suggested to the students that the class they were in was too hard and they should take something easier. This was directed specifically at the MIS students. This was a 200 level course, with the prof. suggesting 100 level courses.
When the profs. admit there is an intellegence gap...well, I'll let you go from there.

Don't let anyone tell you that CS is programming

[ErrantKbd]

CS deals with the thoeretical aspects of computation. As is often quoted here on /., Edsgar Dijkstra once pointed out that Computer Science is as much about computers as astronomy is about telescopes. Indeed, in your undergraduate curriculum at an accredited university, you will never take a required Computer Science course wherein the main goal is to learn how to program. Always there will be a theoretical end which is sought. In fact, I would say that Computer Science is simply a branch of mathematics which concerns itself with what is computable given a certain amount of time and a certain amount of space, and the classification of known problems via verification of reducibility of various sorts (look up the Cook-Levin Theorem).

Basically, Computer Science is way more enjoyable than learning how to deal with the fleeting technology of the moment, and I recommend it strongly if the search for universal truths is your bag.

P.S. If you just want to learn a language, learn LISP. It's a good one.

Re:and we laugh...

[Lawrence_Bird]

Many years ago I was an Accounting and Physics double major and Comp Sci Minor. I got out with something on order of 150 credits. Looking at what the MIS types are saying, it seems to me to make much more sense to get the CS degree and take the business/management and other MIS like classes as your electives. Theres nothing to say you can't take 18 credits a semester with an occasional summer class. And yes, you can still party if you figure out how to manage your time.

Importance of Degrees

[Spezzer]

This probably will seem very redundant but the fact that 'having a degree goes much farther than what degree you get' is very true. In my dad's old startup company (Cacheflow), there was a high-level officer who did work related to computer engineering exclusively, and it was a very lucrative business at the time (tech boom about 1-2 years ago). Yet, his degree wasn't a Masters in CS, CIS, or MIS, but a Ph.D in Physics.

I guess when you know that much physics, math must come pretty natural to you so learning CS wouldn't be as difficult. Yet it is probably not as important as to what degree you get as it is to pursuing a degree that interests you and works with your natural talents so you can excel while getting the degree. Although I'm not in college yet, I would assume those that find their major fairly easy have more time to explore other research opportunities, but in all likelihood that might not be true. I guess I'll have to find out.

Either way, from observation it seems that you shouldn't pursue a degree and then feel burned out in it, because usually it's more about the type of work you're forced to do in college than it is the subject being taught. When I have to choose, I'll take the one that I'm interested in and can do well in.

The question I find more appropriate is, if you wanted to get the highest level job in a company, would having a specific degree help you attain it or does it then matter on your qualifications as a worker in the field?

Degree?

[CatherineCornelius]

I'm surprised that anyone would still value academic qualifications in a highly technical field. In my experience this is not what a potential employer looks for in computing. In more twenty years of employment in IT, I think I may have been asked about my academic qualifications twice. I don't even list them on my CV. Nor would I hire a candidate for an IT project on the basis of academic qualifications.

So could it be something else that's holding you back?

Make sure you get the theoretical foundations

[ya_steve]

I think the most important knowledge you can gain from university is the theoretical foundations behind programming - namely, the principles and design of algorithms and data structures. Your don't necessarily need theoretical computer science (finite state devices, pushdown automata, Turing machines - they're fun, but you could just read Neal Stephenson), but I have many MIS-degreed colleagues who come unstuck when a new technology arrives because they never learned the fundamentals.

My university (Canterbury, New Zealand) did not have a specific MIS department. Instead, the Accountancy department had some MIS-type courses (business focus, some simple programming in DBase, which was a waste of time), and the Computer Science department had some other MIS-type courses (systems analysis and design). So my degree includes system-oriented CS, business-oriented CS, business-MIS-theory, and theoretical CS. I recommend the subjects in that order.

Search your soul

[hazem]

It is a very difficult thing to do, but search your soul and ponder what you REALLY want to do. Don't just think about the next job, or 5 years from now, but try to imagine yourself THIRTY or fourty years from now! What do you think you would like to be doing then?

I have been working as a systems administrator for 5 years while getting a degree in Middle East Studies. I'm still working as a Sysadmin - pays the bills nicely. But now I'm working on an MBA, though I seriously considered backtracking and getting a Masters degree in Computer Engineering (I have already finished 2 years of engineering). The moral of the story is that I don't really want to be an engineer, and I don't want to be a systems administrator. I do want to work with companies that want to work in the Middle East. My tech skills won't be wasted - if I ever become a PHB, I'll at least understand the poor techies when they sigh at the other PHBs who demand that all internet services be served from Microsoft IIS and Exchange!

Read the book "The Alchemist" by Paulo Coehlo. It's all about finding your "personal legend" - that thing that you truly want, and then trying to get it. Find what you want to do - in the long term. Nothing you learn is wasted if you find a way to apply it and use it. Learn those things that help you be what you really want to be.

It's not about the degree... it's about you.

Re:and we laugh...

[clueless_penguin]

Each side can laugh all they want at the other, but which you get should be determined by what you want out of it. Want to do business/db apps? Get a MIS. It is usually part of the college of business. CS is either an engineering or math oriented program. Where I went I had to take 33 hours worth of math. A math elective gave me a math minor. Go this route if you want to do more engineering type things. In my experience companies looking for engineers will toss resumes from MIS types. They don't have the background for these types of programs. On the other hand I once had a job writing and fixing sql. I was bored out of my mind (and I do know the difference between an amortization schedule and my ass). This job would have been a better fit for someone more interested in business.

In either case, the degree shows that you can commit to a significant undertaking and finish it. That's worth a lot for either degree.

the degree doesn't matter

[maxpublic]

Any degree will do. It doesn't matter what field the degree is actually in, although a science degree (something that involves math and the ability to write a semi-coherent sentence) generally carries more weight than a non-science degree. Assuming, of course, that the person who's doing the decision-making isn't a B.A. with a chip on his/her shoulders about all the smarter B.S.'s and their ability to add larger than double-digit sums without the aid of a calculator.

Most schools don't really teach the tools needed to actually work in the field you have a degree in. If you think you can graduate from school with a bachelor's in computer science and be good to go right off the bat, wait awhile until I stop laughing my ass off. Fact is, you're almost as useless as the Psych major who also applied for the job, but at least with the Psych major we might actually hire someone who can relate to people in a basically human fashion.

Y'see, just about all of these bachelors degrees, no matter what the field, are completely irrelevant. They don't train you for a job; in fact, 90% of what you learn - at least - will be utterly useless in the real world. What the degree does say is that you're enough of a peon to put up with four years of unpleasant bullshit, so much so that you're gullible enough to actually PAY for the privilege, just to get the chance to work for us. And that's what we want: peons who'll put up with shit and keep on trucking. We love the Borg drones and wish you were just like them.

No mavericks for us, thank you very much. Mavericks tell us to 'fuck off' when they don't like how we treat them and that just ain't acceptable.

As for how one gains the actual skills required to do the job:

- hire on with a company that knows you're a fool just out of college, and therefore just about skilled enough to defrag Windows boxes. They'll teach you what you really need to know, after torturing you for a couple of years first (low guy on the totem pole, etc.)

- apprentice to a known wizard. Sometimes a wizard (i.e., a good programmer) will take on an apprentice and teach them what they know. Especially if the apprentice can really suck cock, er, will give the job his all. This is hard to do unless you're good friends with a wizard because wizards are often antisocial types with little desire to teach anyone anything. In 18 years I've taken on three apprentices and told everyone else to rot in hell. That's three more apprentice than any of the other wizards I count as friends.

- if you have raw talent, do what 95% of the programming community does. Jump in, sink or swim. Teach yourself. It's much easier nowadays because you can get on the net, ask a question, and get two dozen different but right solutions to your problem, so there's no excuse for not trying it this way. If you can't learn via reading and asking questions then you're fucked - you have no talent, get an MCSE and go work for Microsoft or someone else too stupid to realize that you'r a loser when it comes to computers. But really, if you can't teach yourself then stop wasting your time and choose a career that you're actually decent at.

The upshot is that you won't learn any useful skills in college when it comes to actual real-world experience. And we know that - we plan for that. What college tells us is that if you're dumb enough to put up with crap for four years and pay for it, that you'll bend over and let us ream you up the ass if the paycheck is coming your way. That's what we want first and foremost. It'd be nice to do that you can do math and write a complete sentence, so a science degree is good, but you can get it in any science and we don't care what it is. A CS major is no more qualified to program than a Microbiology major is. Trust me on this.

So pick a science that you like. During the summer intern with a place that'll actually let you near a working machine. *That's* where you'll get real skills. In addition read everything you can, put together your own home network, hack the Linux kernel (even if you don't use Linux it'll teach you a hell of alot about programming), etc.; get experience any way you can. During the interview we'll ask you questions that you won't be able to bullshit without practical experience.

If you can, befriend a wizard and have him help you with the arcane arts. Having your own personal wizard at your beck and call is the biggest advantage you can get. Especially - especially - if the wizard will vouch for you as a reference. You have no idea how important this is; it carries far more weight than any degree. After all, anyone can get a degree but very few folks can get a wizard to say something nice.

Max