Do You Like Your Job? 1174
G-shock asks: "I've worked for the government (NASA), large public companies, and small startups as a software engineer. They all have something in common. It seems like management at this company is just winging it. I find myself putting all my energy, both mental and emotional, into a project only to be disappointed by decisions made by management. I really feel like management at my current employer is disconnected from what is actually going on. They manage a project, but not the people. They also seem to lack any real vision. Direction is constantly changing and proper time is not given to engineer these changes correctly. This leads to mandated quick and dirty solutions that end up being maintained with great pain for long periods of time. All this leads to me feeling cynical about the work I'm doing. What I want to know is, how can I feel good about the work I'm doing if I don't have confidence in my management? How many of you are happy with your management? Why? Why not? What can I do about this? Thanks in advance for your insight." Considering that this seems to be a common problem in technology companies, and seeing as we have been producing software for basically half a century, do you think that managing software projects is a different beast than the management of anything else? How many of you have had this problem in your career and what did you do to adjust?
Ex-programmers make the best managers (Score:5, Interesting)
When I started at my current job, I was not sure what to expect, being under the assumption that management knows nothing. But later finding out that most of the management here has done some programming before. In fact one of the main managers was the only programmer here when the business started up.
I believe this makes for the best workplace as a programmer because everyone above you knows how you are feeling. What to expect from you. What is hard/easy etc.
Atleast that's my view on it anyways.
Welcome to the real world (Score:4, Interesting)
Infact, I've not yet worked for one, or contracted for one, that wasn't.
It's frustrating to work for these places. Sometimes degrading, but most of all back breaking. Nothing's ever finished 100%, there's no time for proper design, nor implementation. And sometimes you just have to wonder what the fuck goes on behind the door in those management meetings!!
I think I'm slowly giving up. I'd always hoped that I'd find that "one place" where things were done *right*. Each job I take, I get a little closer. But I'm not there yet.
Luckily I'm approaching that middle-management-age, so at the right place, I may be able to change things for the better (for the developers). That'd be a huge accomplishment, because at most places all the other department's (publications, marketing) are hindered with similar management/policy/timeframe problems. Except they sometimes get a sense of finality - when a print publication is printed and sent - they can sigh in relief. Ours - well, there's always something that needs to be changed on one of the websites, the code, the network, security policy, servers, hardware... just add it to the to-do list. It's the neverending beast.
Not all companies have bad managers... (Score:4, Interesting)
The reason for this is because they have good working knowledge from both sides of the fence. They are aware of the buisiness concerns (time schedules, money, the competition) and engineering concerns. For instance, they can take the long view and recognize that putting a little more design and documentation work up front usually results in a better, more maintainable project. It also keeps the engineers happy (and by extention more productive) which is better for the company.
However, there are occasions where it does make better business sense to kill or rush a project. Former engineers are much more capable of conveying this to the workforce in a manner that they can accept.
Re:happine$$ (Score:2, Interesting)
Old Job :: New Job (Score:4, Interesting)
At my old job, management (not my boss, but management) was abysmal. We were constantly being handed something that needed to be done yesterday, being told to get it done ASAP and drop everything else we were doing to come up with a solution given inadequate resources. We were always short on machines, manpower, time, budget, and respect. In the midst of the latest Hot Project, management would walk in and tell us there was something else we should be doing instead, and why the hell weren't we doing that?
At my new job, there are a few levels of management. I'm only really directly affected by the level directly above me. This is similar to my old job, but with one important difference: so far, my boss has sheltered us from most of the crap raining down from above (the raining of crap is to be expected anywhere, really.)
We actually have money to get our tasks done. We have the time to get them done in (more or less). We also aren't reassigned all over the fucking place because management fucked something up.
I like it so far. Plus I got free money from my old job, w00t!
- A.P.
Here's the root problem and solution (Score:2, Interesting)
First, I would like to congratulate the poster for most eliquently describing a situation that is occuring everywhere in our culture.
Now, here is why this is happening:
Engineers are not supposed to manage people, nor do they have the proper education to do so.
Libral Arts graduates are not supposed to manage people, nor do they have the proper education to do so.
Computer Science graduates are not supposed to manage people, nor do they have the proper education to do so.
History graduates are not supposed to manage people, nor do they have the proper education to do so.
Are we getting somewhere? So, you might now ask, who are supposed to manage the employees? Commerce Graduates. NOT MBAs. Very few MBA graduates have the required theory and experience to properly manage people. As a commerce graduate we have a clear understanding of what people need. We know how to motivate them. We can identify conflicting personallities quickly and know how to resolve them. We go through hundreds of case studies that cover many classical scenrios that come up in product development, manufacturing, HR, etc.
We are educated to manage people (4-5 years of education). Just because you have a degree saying you can code linux in your sleep or build a bridge over a mile-wide river does not mean you can manage people.
Now, there are some great exceptions. Many great managers are not Commerce grads at all. What they are able to do is respect their employees and identify their needs. By seeing what the employees need, they are now able to motivate them properly but fullfuling them to the best of there abilities. Everyone has needs. Fullfilling these needs leads them to happiness. Anyone can be placed in a management role, but very few have the patience (or are able) to identify the needs of their employees.
There are surveys that state needs on a general level. Many are inaccurate because the needs of an individual vary from nation to nation, city to city, job to job, or from time to time.
So, how do identify their needs? You communicate. Yes it is that easy. Few people are now thinking, "This is common sense." But what we learn in Commerce is that common sense is not so common.
Even communication needs to be defined. You have a sender who sends the message. There is the ether where the message travels and noise is added. The noise could be physical barriers, language, culture, speech dialec, idioms, preconceived notions, physical distance, non-verbal gestures etc. Then you have the receiver to whom the message is directed. But that's not it. You see, the biggest problem in commmunication is all that noise. How do you resolve that? Well, part of the communication model has a wonderful little component. It's called feedback.
So, poster, I again congratulate you for addressing this all important topic. But here is what you MUST do.
1) Go to you manager that is ineffective.
2) Communicate your needs clearly.
3) Listen carefully at the feedback you will receive.
4) Repeat steps 1 - 3 until you are satisfied.
Now, I am a geek like you. I just happen to have a Commerce degree. So I ask all geeks to never be afraid to communicate their needs. If you must, be careful when you do, try to assist you manager in clearly understanding what you need, and what the project needs for success. Now there are many times where they will not do what you want them to do. The reasons here are many:
1) The company is under tight constraints and needs to cut corners to get the project out the door and make some (any) money. The manager can't communicate this to you due to confidentiality.
2) The manager is not a good listener - these are the worst types of managers and they are very difficult to change. Some people actually have to LEARN to actively listen. There are many very good courses for these types of people. Check with your local colleges.
3)The mansger does not respect your judgement, advice, etc. In this situation to need to carefully analyse what caused it. Always look at your past actions first, then the manager, then external factors.
4) The manager is having problems balancing the needs of their employees vs. the needs of the organization. The best they can do here, is communicate what these barriers are to their employees. Remember the communication model here.
There are other reasons why they can't do what you want but these are some of the main ones I came accross so far. But always, always make sure they know and understand what you need to make you happy. Then you have done your job as an employee.
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Scientific research is a little different... (Score:4, Interesting)
Research in situations such as mine in academic institutions is very different from work elsewhere... you work usually by yourself and just with the higher ups (really, only the professor) and get a lot of work done, by yourself. Thus, there is a self achievement factor involved that motivates you, and a "I must do this so I can figure out if this works and I discover this" driving you to work. You are not slowed down because you are not dependant on other's (directly that is) so you know everything that is happening on your part of the project. Such factors motivate me and even allows me to not even worry about money, but just the work. Setting your hours is another plus, it is a very flexible environment really, and I would not mind research in my future (though, in a slightly more engineering field for myself).
Also, everyone in these workplaces, like academic instututions, are all smart (at least at Yale University); "management" is good and everyone is happy and is willing. What one can do about poor management is something I'm not sure about, without getting yourself fired that is. A new job in a different place/field may help, or getting the courage to do something radically differrent (be creative) may also help. Really, you need to find a job that you will like with management you will like and not move out of it once you find it... little idealistic, but it is possible. Maybe a company is simply not the workplace for you.
Re:I gotta be honest... (Score:3, Interesting)
Management doesn't know the software dev. process (Score:4, Interesting)
In that job, I ended up being the jack of all trades, running around and patching things up (not so much code, but design decisions, manager awareness, team skills, etc). And even though I put in a considerable amount of effort, the project still ended up slipping the dead line by a long shot (which was waaaaay too tight in the first place).
All throughout I constantly tried to look ahead and warn the project manager of dangers and difficulties that lay ahead that could endanger the project. Only to not be taken seriously, or simply being too late for management to be able to do something about.
To me it appears that management doesn't know the software development process very well. They expect things to be easy, quick, and impactless. Documentation is required, but no real time set aside for it. Design before coding is of course mandatory, but if we get any time at all that's a real surprise (in my experience). Getting the development environment set up with daily builds, automated regression test (and integration tests where possible) is given no attention. In my last project we were four weeks into the coding before we got a semi-working development environment. Go figure.
So well, my experience is that most project managers simply lack awareness of what is involved in a software development project.
One of my goals is to get around to writing a book; "The software development process explained" (or something) targeted directly at managers to help them get an understanding of what's involved and how it all interacts. And no, it won't be a tome, I'm hoping to keeping it to 2-300 pages, so a manager doesn't feel too intimidated by it.
As a bottom note, I am now employed doing second line global technical support, and while dealing with some customers can be quite frustrating and painful, the management here has a good idea of what they are doing. It makes a world of a difference. Even though I'm more or less on call 24/7, the stress levels are nowhere near what I had in my last development position.
Simple solution, work for yourself (Score:5, Interesting)
I always found it incredibly difficult to suffer the incompetence of "managers" who, more often than not, get paid far too much money to do far too little work -- at least that's what I thought.
Since becoming self-employed however, I have a much greater respect for the time, effort and skill required to "manage" a business.
In fact, I've deliberately kept my own operations small whenever possible so as to avoid getting caught in the inevitable drift towards management that occurs when you start expanding and employing others. I'd rather remain down and dirty at the coalface.
One unfortunate side-effect of being self-employed in a fast-moving and highly competitive industry is that you can find yourself working 12-14 hours a day, 7 days a week.
I haven't had a vacation for over a decade and most years Christmas passed by almost without me noticing.
This type of thing is okay when you're young and you can survive on 4 hours sleep a night with a constant diet of Coke and pizza -- but I'm knocking on 50 now and it's getting bloody hard.
Sometimes I dream of retiring to become just another employee. Let someone else worry about paying my salary, keeping the overdraft topped up and filing endless government forms -- I'll just pop in for 8-9 hours a day and go fishing on the weekends.
If you're thinking of bitching about management, don't forget the old saying "never judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes."
There are some real asshole managers out there -- but then again, there are also some real asshole employees.
If you're really ticked off -- break away and start your own corporation.
Job Board Sites are dead (Score:3, Interesting)
Have you been on those things lately? I figure close to 75 percent of all the jobs listed on Monster and Dice are body shops trying to fill their skills databases, and the other 25 percent are the same old job listings that have been there for MONTHS.
A clueless friend of mine keeps me "updated" on all of these great jobs that he keeps seeing on the boards, yet he fails to make the connection that the reason the same ones keep showing up is that the companies who post are either
- clueless on how to attract/retain quality employees,
- sold on this cool, new thing call the "web", or
- have no idea what they want and are fishing for answers
Either way, they're losers; why waste time with losers?Re:Sigh. If only I'd known then. (Score:2, Interesting)
Fro the past 2 years I've had the opportunity to work for a "technical" manager. My boss can code right next to me in the office and hold his on with all the projects we work on. (Even though his office has a window) The real plus is he also knows how to handle both his technical and non-technical subordinates as a real manager should. He makes all the interactions between other groups in my company, and does it without sharpening his teeth on anyone's spine. So, any techie other there who feels smothered by their incompetent boss... make a run for the position yourself if you feel up to it.
Here's my take. (Score:2, Interesting)
In the first of my last two jobs, my direct report manager was excellent. Always on top of the situation, fully aware of what, why and how, never crowding but always there to lend a hand to get some issue moved out of my way (You rule Russ!
In my last job, the situation was considerably worse. None of my managers had a clue, no matter how goddamned often we'd explain it to them. Constant changes in focus caused by a dying business made it just about impossible to get any real projects done. I'd finish one project, then be told we would no longer need it and could I get started on this new thing right away?
In both cases, it is my opinion that the problems were always caused by management not taking software engineering seriously. These managers need to understand that the engineers and programmers are trying to do their jobs with diligence and focus, and that the success or failure of a project can control the fate of the entire company. It's that serious. It's never taken that seriously, at least so far in my experience.
The mith of American management is that it exists (Score:4, Interesting)
I have come to the realization that the ONLY people I ever worked for who had a clue as to what management is about, what projects are about and what the deliverable was supposed to be were in the military.
Not that they were all that great but you could count on them not to try to 'fix' the steering on truck while its careening around a curve and heading for a cliff.
That's why a military toilet seat costs six hundred bucks. Because you can at least be sure that your ass will fit, that its over a latrine and that it will have a hole in it.
With civilian (mis-)management, they'd skip cutting out the hole and justify it as cutting out the cost. And there'd be shit everywhere.
Read "systemantics." It'll clue you in on why things are so screwed up. It won't help a damn but at least you'll know why you're getting reamed.
Self-managing engineering teams (Score:4, Interesting)
Both teams provided visibility on what they were doing to the execs, so the execs only had to step into the details when they thought that there was a problem. This way, the execs could treat the various departments more like black box units, and deal more with steering the ship.
It helped that the engineers were all good friends and the head of marketing for the project was smart AND reasonable....
Coming up roses (Score:2, Interesting)
I hunker down and code most of the time, plan stuff, and handle inevitable admin tasks. I have another IT guy I've worked with before coming on board soon to handle networking and tech support. My budget is whatever I need, within reason. I'm a tightwad - most-bang-for-the-buck kinda guy, but if I need to spend $20,000 I can. It's nice.
While I made a good living for rural Louisiana, I'm not driving a Porsche or anything. I make about half of what I could make in a major metro. But I work 45 minutes from my home town, telecommute a day a week, have deep local roots, and get to hang out with my friends and have a life. Don't mean to rub it in, but life is great.
God don't let me fuck this up!
Re:Do I like my job? (Score:3, Interesting)
Sure, you can improve the conditions that you work under. You can make your work "more meaningful", but you cannot eliminate the fact that, no matter what your job is, there will be times that you don't like it. You can't get around it -- no matter what job you have, at some point it will suck.
It's a balancing act. Does the money+self-gratification balance out the suckiness of your job? If the answer is "yes", you stay. If the answer is "no", you leave.
My point isn't that all jobs are always miserable, it is that every person needs to define what an acceptable amount of work-related misery is.
Re:This is f*ckin' LIFE (Score:3, Interesting)
And what would be wrong with that? I think roughly 100% of Americans would prefer to work less and reduce stress in their lives. Our economy is insanely inefficient, some suggest on the order of 1-2% efficiency as a ratio of "what you come home to" to "how much you work." Part of that's human nature. The other part is simply bad planning, bad management, too much bureacracy, etc.
Want an answer? Go green. That's right, focus companies on ecological efficiency. The economics will fall in place naturally. For example: an almost paperless office with 90% natural lighting / climate control, efficient appliances, more organic work environment, etc. You just keep going down the line.. and eventually your employees are working half as much, producing better work. It just takes intelligence. Unfortunately, intelligence is in short supply. Fortunately, the free market will force adaptation to the most efficient way of doing business once enough people begin to innovate.
I'm an intern and I love it (Score:3, Interesting)
I get to format computer HDDs and stick Linux on them to be set up as Linux servers for useful things like SIP (VoIP stuff) and creating web servers. I've learn a ton of stuff about Linux and what's better is I get paid $9/hr! It's like paid training! Of course I do administer Windows2k Servers, but it's still good to learn other OSes. Also I get other benefits like free 2.7mbit DSL with 5 static IPs, and two domain names.
I have only four complaints. First of all, I take it for granted all the time, and I need to realize that I'm truly lucky. Second, things can be a bit disorganized and the boss just wants things done, fast. Third, security isn't really big deal to them, but I think it is, of course this goes back to them just wanting things done. Finally, since it's a telecommunications company I have dealt with many co-workers getting laid off and it sucks. It sucks seeing hard working adults with families having to leave their jobs, while I'm still here and I don't *need* the job. What's worse, is that I've also gotten a job offer from another company (that I now also work with) that deals with wireless internet access.
It's crazy having all these opportunities at 17, I just hope they're still here in the future. Of course I'm careful with my money (cheap) and I've saved most of my money that I've made. Unfortunately because of this (at least I think so) I don't have a girlfriend or a car (I'll wait.)
So to keep this post ontopic, I would say I love my job (internship) and I agree management can be a pain in the ass if they don't know what they're doing, don't take input from workers, and become nazis. Basically, you should have the proper qualifications for the job.
Get over yourself fer chis'sake (Score:3, Interesting)
First ask your self these questions?
1 -- Who the Hell am I to judge Management? As brilliant as I am did I have the fortitude and cash to start a company that employs enough people to have managers?
2 -- Why do I need to _feel good_ about my work in a non quantifable way? Why can't I simply be satisfied in the work I accomplish? Do I honestly believe that that every person who has a job _feels good_ about their work? Do taxi drivers; warehousemen; burger flippers; lumberjacks; DCMA lawyers; Senators; sys admins need to _feel good_ about their work or can they just get it done? Can knowing you're good be enough satisfaction? Can doing your job to the best of your abilities be the bronze ring?
3 -- Other than the deadline and some parameters; what do I really need to know?
4 -- When the economy totally tanks and no one is wiling to pay me to manipulate text in a way that a computer can understand it; will I care about _feeling good_ about my work or will the fact that i haven't had to sell any organs this week to make my mortgage be enough?
5 -- Am I insane to be caring about how I feel about managers in this economy?
See how those five questions get answered and then Q-Tip the shit out of your brain and get a job.
My journey to the Dark Side (Score:1, Interesting)
The reason there are so many bad managers around is very simple. Being a good manager is very, very difficult, and most people who wind up with the job are not qualified for it. There are many reasons for this. Managers in software companies come from two possible places: either they have a background in software or they don't. If they do, then they probably weren't trained in management and don't know the first thing about it. (This is the fault of our schools for assuming that someone working on a CS degree doesn't need/want to learn something as unrelated as management.) The other category are the managers who don't have a technical background, in which case they don't understand the decisions they make, they don't understand how to relate to engineers, and the engineers don't respect them.
So the first two things a good manager needs are both a technical background _and_ some sort of training in management. This is already a problem since management requires good people skills, an interest in psychology, a willingness to be hands-off, etc...all qualities that most engineers have trouble with.
In any case, let's assume we can find an engineer who has (or can learn) enough of the qualities above. This engineer now needs management training to be a good manager. The best way to learn management is from another good manager and, sadly, there are very few around. As a distant second choice, there are also some good books you can read. I recommend "High Output Management" by Andy Grove and "The Goal" by Eli Goldratt as good places to start.
So that's reason #1 why good managers are rare...it's rare to find someone qualified. Reasons #2 is that most people don't have a clue what managers actually do, or why they are necessary. This (sadly!) includes most managers.
Here, in a nutshell, is what a manager does: Let's assume you start a company by yourself and do everything yourself. Great! No problem. Now, let's assume that the company grows to the point where there's too much work for you to do by yourself. You hire someone to help you. Invariably, this person is either not as good at the job as you are, or just does things differently enough to make you uncomfortable. (This is inevitable since all people are different, so this person can not be a drop-in replacement for you.) Now you, as a manager of this person, have a choice: you can either do the guy's work for him (micro-management) which annoys him and keeps you from getting the rest of the work done, limiting the growth of your company...or you can relax, let the guy do his job, and over time, train him to do it better. The latter is good management. It's really an optimization problem: given more work than you can do yourself and insufficient resources, how do you get as much done as well as possible? And the answer is: by being even more inefficient...by taking time to organize and train instead of just doing the work yourself! Believe me, this is a very difficult thing to learn how to do!
But a manager's end goal must be efficiency. This brings us to the ultimate paradox of management: AN IDEAL MANAGER MUST DO EVERYTHING IN HIS POWER TO MAKE HIMSELF UNNECESSARY...that is, to train, coordinate, delegate, etc...get the organization to the point where it can thrive without his help. When the ideal manager reaches this point, his job is done and he can return to engineering full-time...and this is the ultimate reward of management. A good manager will always have "returning to engineering" as his ultimate goal, otherwise the system doesn't work. (How many managers do you know who have this goal?)
So...to summarize: Good managers are rare because there's a very wide cross-section of skills required, and because most people don't have the necessary background. They're also rare because even the ones with the necessary skills don't usually understand the concepts I explained above.
As for me...I'm really lucky. My boss has been an excellent mentor. I'm a manager who yearns for engineering (and still writes code as often as I can!) I love my job. The people who work for me trust me because I give them as much freedom as possible, yet I give them nudges every now and again to keep the organization on track. And finally, I feel that it's my personal responsibility to pass on what I've learned so that maybe this crazy industry that we all love so much will someday start working a little more smoothly.
Best of luck...
-Steve G
(steven at foo dot net)
Dealing w/Management (Score:2, Interesting)
For one, I almost always base my time estimates on how long it will take to do the job the "right way" (the time usually works out to double my gut reaction to the question, "how long will it take you to do this?"). If I'm dealing with a manager who doesn't want it done the right way, I add another 50% to the estimate then I take it off when he "forces" me to get the job done sooner. Oh, and I should mention that the preceding flies in the face of what comes naturally to software engineers - the urge to give an optimistic estimate. Because, for some reason, it makes the engineer feel good to say that "I can do it in *this* short of time". Well, you're boss will be more impressed if you can meet your deadline, even if it was padded to meet with reality.
Another thing that I do is pad my estimates to make time for refactoring. I pretty much stick to rewriting modules that communicate with the new code. The rewrite typically involves design improvements and removing dependences that crept into places hey shouldn't have. In my 11 years of software engineering, this over-engineering has always resulted in SHORTER development cycles. Sure it doesn't feel that way early on, but by time your done with bug fixing and last minute feature changes, you'll be glad that you over-engineered the crap out of it. BTW, don't ever tell your manager that you're over-engineering, tell your manager what he/she wants to hear, work a few extra hours each week and watch him kiss your feet when you're able to incorporate those last minute changes w/out destabilizing the software and without pushing the release date back even further.
I could go on-and-on... oh, too late...
As a famous engineer once said, "you can't gain the reputation as a miracle worker if you tell him how long it actually takes."
Re:What is your real job? (Score:5, Interesting)
I realize this post mostly just reiterates the parent post, but from the opposite directions.... but I have to say, I'm very happy with the situation.
Re:What is your real job? (Score:5, Interesting)
Very true. However, I wrote under the assumption that you could just get another job, not that you would run for the hills and code like a hermit. Even a lesser paying job would suffice.. I guess it would depend on what quality of living you are shooting for. Even my friend who works at a gas station makes enough to pay rent. Just because my night job is free software does not mean my day job has to be programming. Hmm, I wonder how many people actually hold non-software jobs, but do free software in their spare time? Sounds like fun.
I've thought about just quitting my day job and working at the nearby Chili's restaurant. It would be a lot more social than the boring office, and I need to get out anyway. Not to mention there are lots of cute girls there too.
-Justin
Software exposes the fuzziness of business (Score:2, Interesting)
I've worked in a number of different industries, in capacities from grunt to general manager, and my take on this is that *every* business project goes through multiple changes, last-minute "fill the gaps," SWAG, misdirected and incomplete thinking, and all the management problems that software engineers love to hate.
The difference between software and most other types of projects, is that usually there is no empirical test of the outcome of the project vs. its intended outcome, as there almost always is with a piece of code.
Did the marketing project achieve its objectives? Was it functionally complete? Does it have bugs? Does it break under stress? Who the heck knows? It's simply impossible to measure the results of most other business projects, because they don't have the defined inputs/processing/outputs of software.
Consequently, bluffing at the micro- and macro- level is inserted into almost every business project, from prepping for the meeting with the boss, to buying the competitor. And far from this ever being revealed, most people don't even realize they're doing it themselves. It's just human nature.
When you apply that sort of mentality to software, and technical project management in general (does the 777 fly or not?) you almost invariably a) run over time and over budget b) de-scope the project or c) end up with an unholy mess on your hands, because your fuzzy thinking has been exposed by the rigors of the product.
So you blame technology, blame the technologists, and never examine the root of the problem -- the fact that you've been, consciously or unconsciously, half-assing it all your business career, just like everyone else in business.
If business people in general applied to business processes 1/10 the conceptual and practical thinking, constant learning, and focus that software engineers put into their code, the entire enterprise would collapse in a heap of disbelief and self-loathing, and then re-emerge like a phoenix, unrecognizably well-run.
Look for it about 2110, at the earliest.
A job I truly like (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:This is f*ckin' LIFE (Score:3, Interesting)
As far as i can see, in most places the only way to avoid being pressured into working extra hours is by connecting it DIRECTLY to the bottom line - meaning, get paid by the hour.
The typical manager seems to think that:
More time worked = More results
(and i'm being generous here, the other theory is that middle managers need to present the view that everybody is working really hard so as to excuse the fact that most of their projects are over the deadline)
Re:Job Board Sites are dead (Score:5, Interesting)
I know in the US "government-run" is synonymous with "piece of crap." Not so in this case. It is detailed and very very comprehensive.
Basically, it works like this: You find a job via the website or using the touchscreen terminals in the Hello Work offices, then print out the jobs you're interested in (up to five per day).
You then take the printouts to the office and give them to the people who work there, who then call the company for you and set up an interview with two of the companies you're interested in. Then they give you a card with your info and the company's info on it.
After the interview, you give the card to the company. The neat part is, if the company doesn't want you, they have to give a good reason why not. This is to help fight job discrimination (especially against women and people over 50).
I got my current job this way. It's a very pleasant experience, not degrading at all the way I remember it being in the US.
One company tried to turn me down flat for an interview because I was non-Japanese. The wonderful public servant who was trying to set up the interview for me (Mr. Ikejiri, God bless his soul) actually got angry with the guy and browbeat them into meeting with me. Of course I didn't take that job, but it was cool having someone in your corner.
Programmers can be managers from hell. (Score:5, Interesting)
Now tell me again that programmers make good managers, and I will laugh in your general direction. The best managers I've had knew nothing about programming, but they knew how to ask the right questions (when will it be done, what do you need to do it faster, how can I help you achieve your goals) and leave the programming to the experts.
Good manager (Score:2, Interesting)
These kinds of people are the ideal managers, they know about people and they know about the work that has to be done.
I'd agree in some cases, but there are the BOFH's (Score:2, Interesting)
This is of course because he's naturally a nice guy.
But I could definitly see that if a BOFH became head. uhg...
Sean D.
WE NEED A LINUX ADMIN!!!!!! (Score:1, Interesting)
Figure out what it is you want (Score:3, Interesting)
Then you have to ask some hard questions. Can you get what you want working for someone else? For real? Are there decisions that are typically or likely going to be made that will ruin your dream?
Lastly, what's it worth? Do you have the tools to do it?
I worked at IBM. It's a great company. You can very easily get in to a nice routine there, never need to work a lot of overtime. Put your 40 in, get a decent raise every year, pick up your spec and churn out the code, show up to some meetings, go home raise some kids and a dog, buy that house with the picket fence.. It's safe and tame. You won't get fired but you probably won't work on really sexy stuff either. At age 23, after 5 years as a regular employee there (yes, I was a salaried software engineer for them) I wanted something more exciting.
I went to a medium sized company with hands off managment. It's awesome in ways. We have a goal and some deadlines and complete freedom to build the product. And it's linux based. It's a dream come true, or is it? It takes radically different skills to work in that environment, you can't have team member who simply want a spec and a dark office with no interaction, team dynamics are critical. You need people who take initiative. You need bold people who are good communicators. With just a few "roll players" who want that 40 hours, pick-up-spec-drop-off-code-never-talk-to-anyone job, it becomes nearly impossible to make it work. Likewise, you can't work 40 hours a week, it's not enough time to "do it the right way" you find yourself working 50-60 hours a week and still not having enough time becuase you've got complete engineering freedom and you want to make it perfect as you see it. It's hard, it has it's rewards, but it takes a lot way from life also.
After 2 years of that I walked away from that and started my own business.
Running your own gig is different. There is a lot of work that has to get done before you can do the work. It's a lot of work. It has its moments and rewards, there are also times when I'd love to be back at IBM working my safe little 40 every week watching the stock options earn value. Is it worth it? I can't say yet. I can say that if I go back in to the corporate world it will be a safe and tame 40 so that I can easily put 10-15 in to something else outside of that.
You'll never be completely fullfilled building someone else's dream or vision. Remember that. There will always be decisions and tough choices to make and ultimately they are going to want some return on their investment in you and the dream they have. As cool as the product may be, if you're not calling the shots then there are probably going to be times when things are going to upset you. It's also supposed to be work and you're supposed to have a life outside of that.
Re:Good managers are nice people (Score:2, Interesting)
Now, don't get me wrong. I love my work. It's what really keeps me here for now. It won't be long before I pack and go though and one reason will be because of my immediate manager. Ok, so one may ask, what about the managers above the immediate manager? It is hard to believe that they would allow this guy to continue managing! right? One would think that but with management comes politics and greed. Some managers just have no backbone. Some don't know how to balance profressionalism with personality and then some are just plain stupid and arrogant.
I have very rarely had a management team that was driven by professionalism where their personal lives were totally separate from their professional lives. Heh, the ironic thing is that there has only been one company that I can think of that I have worked at where the teams (management and little people) actually were on the same book and that, ironically, was corporate Disney IPNS West.
My IT director sent my manager to management training (hint, hint) but its not going to help him. His problem is "little man syndrome" and is far beyond good management skills. Its all about personality with him and you simply cannot teach an old dog new personality traits
In short, yes, management is completely out of touch with reality a lot of the time. Another example in my case is that they have removed several IT/IS people from the company while keeping sales people. Sounds like a good idea from a sales perspective, right? OOPS! We get more customers because of the untouched sales people doing their job but not enough techs to handle the backend for the additional customers and now service to the customers sucks and the management is scrambling trying to figure out why!!! Now customers leave because service sucks and word-of-mouth from the customers states that they shouldn't go with company X because the service is terrible. Looks like management made a bad call. It really really frustrates me, too, because it is so blatantly obvious to me and my peers but management just doesn't get it. I think its because their eyes are lined by prospect of greenbacks and their thoughts are just not clear enough to make the wise decisions. I hope people from management read this because WE ARE FRUSTRATED WITH YOU!
I have also noticed that nobody in my company talks to the little people when it comes to big decisions that will affect everybody. Some may say, well thats understandable. How do you expect to get consensus from 900 employees on subject Y? Ok, I see that as a valid point but I have always believed in majority rules and it doesn't take much to send out an email on an issue and then count the results and then state the results back to the employees. This is a little far fetched but not far from being possible.
We recently had our DBA director *fired*!!! Why? He was an excellent DBA director. Everybody liked him because he knew his stuff. He put in extra hours. He was liked by his peers. He didn't always agree with upper management's decisions and he stated so. Upper management didn't like it, so they canned him. THAT my friends is politics. Politics sucks! And we live in a political world
I am angry. I am tired of dealing with management's poor decisions and greed. I am tired of the politics. When will people get back down to basics, forget themselves, and remember that the purpose of a company is to provide service for others at a cost exceptable for both the company and the customer alike. When will management see that although a salaray is a good thing, it shouldn't be the end result. We are a money driven society and until we get back to basics, lose the greed and arrogance, and get back to servicing for the purpose of...get this...SERVICE! we will continue to have messages like this in online forums.
There is nothing wrong with making money. There is something wrong with putting the acquisition of money ahead of people.
Here is a final example of greed. Remember the two guys that left? Well, management refuses to replace them because management refuses to pay them the salary that is even with the industry standard. Management wants to pay them sub-standard salary!!! No wonder we can't fill these positions. Greed folks...its all about greed.
Good day...
signed - Frustrated with management!
Re:Anyone else find it funny... (Score:2, Interesting)
That's not a knock on CS (around here?? Am I insane??) but more of a comment that many of us with backgrounds in computing have found a more interesting application of those skills in completely different fields. I know that's not the norm on slashdot, but a majority of the people who left CS when I did (after 2 years - apparently that was a key time at VT) did so and entered majors they found more stimulating. Even Lib Arts dorks like me.
And thus it's much more likely that we're happy in our current professions. At least, happier than we would have been had we stuck to CS. I know I am.
Re:Anyone else find it funny... (Score:3, Interesting)
Revise your expectations (Score:3, Interesting)
You want to feel that you are contributing towards a greater good, i.e. the successful completion of a useful application/system/product. That's a pretty normal desire. It looks like you're not getting this desire, or expectation, fulfilled at your present job. You never (or too rarely) get the sense of satisfaction and pride of finishing a project that's well designed and coded. What to do?
One solution is to find a company where you can get those expectations met. Use your network of friends, find out who's working for "clueful" management.
Another solution is to revise your expectations at your current job. If you are constantly disappointed by management decisions, quit expecting management to make decisions you like. Find another focus where you can derive satisfaction. Maybe you can become a mentor to those around you. Maybe you can find a project outside work to focus on, or a hobby. Maybe you can get satisfaction out of the code you write, and ignore whether it actually goes to production.
These are just suggestions to get you thinking. Your answer will come from introspecting, thinking about what really satisfies you and motivates you. And then you have to figure out how to get it, in spite of your present situation at work, or again, by finding a new job.
I do wish you good fortune in finding a place/way to be happier. It's difficult to do something when you aren't feeling motivated or rewarded.
Regards,
Thomas
Been There, Done That. (Score:1, Interesting)
My last job, I was on a cutting edge project, something that would change the industry. Then managment got the "Let's give our software a web interface" bug.
So instead of core features, which the project I was on was, we all went scampering after Java/J2EE.
Then I had to takeover some other project to integrate a piece of software into our system and build system.
Then I was switched between about a dozen projects in 10 months.
Oh, and get this, I never got any formal real training on our core software internals. Course the newbies hired after me did. I always felt like I didn't quite grok the massive server, or the tools. But now we were to busy for me to even consider taking the classes.
After about 18 months, I was browbeatten and depressed. I got 'layoff' warnings from my superiors.
So I busted my butt, I closed more bugs in the last month than anyone else in the group. I was on fire. Course, this apparently wasn't enough. So when the dot com bust came, and a buyout-reorg, I was let go.
I went from a project I loved to being a code monkey, requiring no design work. I had to fix other people's broken code, which I was now official maintainer of. I wasn't given a choice in the handoffs either. And it was far from even usable when I got it...
Oh well, still job hunting.
-=Crusoe=-
Stop whining (Score:2, Interesting)
CowBoy Neal's Job (Score:2, Interesting)
Anyone else feel used here? (Score:2, Interesting)
The company I work for is very large and very stable. It's a bank, and even when the tech market "adjusted", the overall impact on my company was negligible.
So I do my job to the best of my ability, which is far better than most in my department, and for the most part I am recognized by being granted more responsibility and more say in the things that happen in the organization. I was even given the opportunity to coordinate the largest, fastest rollout the company has ever seen.
3600 Windows 2000 PCs across 120 locations, installed and configured by out-sourced techs who have no idea what our systems or proprietary applications are like, all completed in less than 8 weeks and me as the only single point of contact for all of the techs. I put out about 50 fires per night ranging from Server issues to Network outages and not once did a location have to fall back...not once.
I was told that it would be my ticket, my way out of my current boring, mindless position as a first-level support person.
I did well, better than anyone expected. I rarely escalated any problems past the point of a phone call. The entire project was called, "the most successful project in the company's history." One week later the company went through a massive re-org and where am I now?
Still changing passwords and asking retards to reboot when an application hangs on them. I attend the occasional meeting where my valued input counts towards the benefit of other departments and still sees me in the same place I have been for over 2 years.
So why do I hate my job?
Because no matter how many times I am commended for my excellent work, how many times my manager receives emails from our users that I went "above and beyond", no matter how many times my suggestion in a meeting gets implemented in the next production release, etc...
I am still in the same entry level position. I give this company everything it needs and more, and I get sweet fuck all. That's why I hate my job...
You have no idea how apt this is! (Score:2, Interesting)
Also, it's interesting to note how many people say no, they hate their job. How sad!
Personally I love the _role_, or I wouldnt be a geek. I even like making customers happy - but don't tell anyone >:) Whether I am happy _where I work_ really comes down to the organisation and management. In the worst cases, they dont manage - they just try to control. That's when you know it's time to go.