Higher Learning, Online? 43
provell writes "An ad for the U of Phoenix online education program caught my eye the other day. I know the concept of online education isn't a new one but it seems to be growing more prevalent with each passing year. As an IT consultant at the age of 18, I didn't give myself much chance for college and I don't get much time in town to take part time courses. With the burst of the E-Bubble, I'm starting to notice an increase in hiring standards. Is a BS a necessary bargaining chip for the IT industry and are online undergrad programs widely accepted/adequate? Any thoughts/experiences would be much appreciated."
Re:uh -oh (Score:2)
Google (Score:1)
There's lots of options, and the best way to check accreditation is to check the sites, or even phone them, if numbers are listed.
I know people will disagree, but... (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't have a degree and have had a very difficult time getting a job. My friends with degrees have had just as difficult time finding a job. The job market is tight right now and basically no matter what's on your resume it's going to be hard to find a job.
However, if you know someone in the company at the very least you will get an interview (try sending resumes to various companies and see how many get back to you) which is a big step and more than likely you will get a good recommendation from someone the hiring person knows. I can't stress the personal reference bit enough. All the jobs I've gotten comes from knowing someone in the company (except the bookstore job but that was not computer-related and only $7.25 an hour).
So, my suggestion: contact everyone you've previously worked with and find out where they're working. Ask them if the company is hiring and even if they aren't contact them again in a few months. Things change quite quickly in the job market.
Finally, good luck and I suggest at some point you get a degree anyway. Pay scales are often based on degrees. I plan to get mine starting next year.
Company should pay... (Score:2, Interesting)
After about 5-10 years on the job, school no longer matters (if you don't have a degree), only experience matters.
As a side note, I'm a firm believer in college educations. I'd be very hard pressed to hire someone without a degree. And in an economical drought of the IT industries, a CS degree won't get you far if you are up against good CompEng canidates (with similar experience, of course).
If you are geared more towards management, go ahead and try to grab an MBA while you are used to going to school, and you should be set and well paid for the next 5-10 years (MBA's usually give you a jump on pay your first 5-10 years).
Re:Company should pay... (Score:2)
That depends on the school. At Purdue, the CompEng people concentrate a lot on hardware, and don't really get into the software aspects, and hence have little experience and knowledge of things like Database systems, networking (higher level, not packet level), and the like. For someplace like Intel, then CompEngs would have the advantage, but for a purely software house, CS is on a slightly better footing. If nothing else, then they are pretty much equal, and it then depends on the soft skills (writing, ability to speak, etc.)
Online learning has promise, but is no substitute (Score:2)
That said, an online education is absolutely no substitute. In the very best online program, you'll still get to work with top-notch instructors in a well-designed curriculum.
However, the single most important thing -- by far -- about undergraduate education is your peers. Textbooks are OK, classes are good, professors are wonderful -- but nothing matters so much as directly sharing that environment with other students. Meeting other students, challenging each other, working side by side and together on problems, everybody chipping in for a pizza at 2 AM
A degree isn't really about knowledge; it's about cultivating an adaptable mind, and becoming a good problem solver and good communicator who can work with others. That's one of the reasons why there's often little correlation between peoples' majors and their ultimate professional fields. That's why so the majority of job descriptions don't say "college degree in X", but simply say "college degree".
Yes, online communities exist (e.g. this), and yes, one can form a peer group there. But for education, there is no substitute for face-to-face immersion.
(My epsilon cents.)
Re:Online learning has promise, but is no substitu (Score:1)
Learning in General (Score:2, Insightful)
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That being said there are legit practical reasons to go online but I think the point still stands that often it is not just the material but the other people in the class. A traditional classroom broadens the scope of the education, allows for more interaction and therefore responsiveness, and is in general more usefull. I realize you are asking specifically about technology degrees but again I think the point is still relevant
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The key here is that a traditional classroom has advantages that an online setting cannot begin to eumulate.
Re:Learning in General (Score:2, Interesting)
The key here is that a traditional classroom has advantages that an online setting cannot begin to eumulate.
And the online setting has advantages that the traditional classroom can't emulate. I have two graduate degrees: one from a large traditional school, the other from an accredited online school. I can honestly say that I learned just as much from the online program as the traditional one. The online degree was both more convenient and more efficient. In the online program I spent much less time sitting around daydreaming while a professor droned on at the front of the room.
Re:Online at UOPhx--class interaction (Score:1)
Re:Sorry for run-on text, how do I show breaks? (Score:1)
Mistakenly hit submit, not preview, or I would have figured out the selection box and put the response in plain text.
Thanks for your understanding. I'll post the first message again, properly, as I'd like to hear your responses.
Online at UOPhx--class interaction (reposted) (Score:1)
Students must participate on 5/7 days, and are graded on the substantiveness of that participation. As all must participate, and say something meaningful that moves the class along and expands its learning, I find better overall class participation than in OG classes. Reserved students speak up, those who are thoughtful but want time to reflect on their comments before posting them have it, those who simply say "I agree" but add nothing new don't earn points, etc.
A large part of the grade (usually 30-40%)is based on one's Learning Team (3-4 students) assignments. There is as much team collaboration OL as OG. OL teams tend to form by timezone (just as OG teams do by who lives/works nearby), so they can all be online at the same time, or use instant messaging or phone calls. The out-of-newsgroup communication is best reserved for logistics of planning out a project, as all work product must go into the newsgroup to get participation points.
It's amazing to see how students form new learning teams (which they have to do for each class, which lasts 5 weeks undergrad, 6 weeks graduate--intense format). This is an accelerated program, with no time to waste, so students get right to it.
One other thing--students must be 23 and employed, average is 34, so everyone has lots of job experience to bring to the table. In fact, that's one of the goals of most courses: to relate the learning to practical experience. Each online program has its own format. Many are simply self-paced, with no interaction except for submitting papers to the instructor.
(No, I don't teach in the technology programs.)###
I'll let you know in about 2 years (Score:2, Insightful)
That said this isn't easier than going to class, they do pile on the work so beware that it's not something that you can do over lunch...
Re:I'll let you know in about 2 years (Score:3, Interesting)
It helps... (Score:2)
Not necessary perhaps, but it certainly helps:
Interviewer: It says here you invented the turing machine.
You: Hire me, and you can patent it.
Yes and no (Score:4, Insightful)
I go to a commuter college and don't feel like it's a real college experience. Sure I'll have a degree from a decent state school when I'm done but I don't have the dorm experience. Some might argue that I'm ahead of the game there but I feel like I missed out. I definately notice a difference in alumni spirit between my school and say a school like Umass Amhearst. Most of my peers I won't miss when I'm gone because they're more like coworkers. We never had the late night bonding/speakers-out-the-window kegger. We share no particular intimacy that comes from close quarters living. Again some may argue that I'm ahead of the game further still.
I do have a more independant method of problem solving. I have more science and computer toys and reference books at my home because the library isn't a walk across the quad. But every step of the way has been something of a struggle having to figure things out myself b/c I can't ask someone down the hall.
Now multiply what I've said by a factor of 10 as you won't know who your peers are in an online class. You won't even have the kind of social life a night school student gets. I don't mean social life as in party. I've learned a lot working through problems with my peers, some problems cannot be solved on your own.
You may think that the social aspect isn't important. It's not if you're trying to get a technical degree in as little time as possible. In which case as an employer I'd probably lump you in with the Devry Tech grads. Not someone who's earned a BS Degree. If I was hiring I'd want someone who can work out problems with a group.
Having earned my BS (I graduate in 8 weeks) I know that most kids who can't work out problems together don't graduate with honors, many don't graduate at all. In other words the BS Degree represents a certain measureable amount of technical skill as well as implies a grasp of certain intangeble skills.
I had a career out of highschool before I decided I wanted a college degree. It was weird at first but it got better. I'm 32 now I don't look, feel or act it. I think it's from being around 20 year olds all day long. This has turned out to be a longer rant than I intended but I guess my bottom line is you're better off biting the bullet and living in poverty for 4 years and get the traditional degree.
Re:Yes and no (Score:2)
Sorry but as a DeVry Grad I have to comment on this no matter what it does to my Karma.
DeVry is not a Tech school, hasn't been in years. As of this January it has even become a University (Yes the name is legally now DeVry University) I can assure you though the school is fast paced it is not easy, group work is a huge part of the schools classes. Probably even more so then some regular universities, to graduate you have to complete a project for an real company (guess what, it's group based). I can't remember the last large assignment I did that wasn't group based. We even have to take 2 classes that deal with nothing but how to work in a team. And yes my degree is a B.S. Degree not a certification like everyone seems to thing DeVry gives.
And yes DeVry does have dorms, though they are contracted to another company so they usually are not on school grounds. And I have been to more school parties then I can count. Oh Friendship, since it was mentioned, my class set up a mailing list so we can contact each other, and it gets traffic every day. Many of us also work together, after we get jobs we recommend our classmates to the company for open positions. And we still hang out.
Don't think I am saying DeVry is perfect, I was one of the first people to point out it's faults (Made me really popular with the deans) but if there is one thing it does do right it is teaching students to work as a team.
Some of the teammates I've worked with ranked right up with the fellow members of my platoon in the Marines. And you can't convince me the Marines don't use teamwork.
Devry (Score:2)
I don't care what you call it. DeVry is still a technical school. However you are correct in that it is better then nothing.
You don't deserve to loose karma but man I'm trolling. There goes my 50.
Re:Devry (Score:2)
English department is good, and every campus has one. It tends to lean toward job skills so many of the classes involve business communications. There are a few classes like poetry or short story writing, but your not going to be a poet when you graduate. It focuses on the business aspect. The Board of Directors for DeVry consists of some CEOs from major corporations so the curriculum is geared towards what skills businesses want in candidates they hire.
Truthfully I think DeVry is the perfect school for people who are in the work force and want to move up, you can get in, learn the skills, get the degree, and get out. I like to think it is a school that specializes in Technical Fields, not a Tech School.
I don't blame you for thinking DeVry was a tech school, the commercials they have don't help to change the image. (That is one of my biggest complaints)
DeVry has an over 90% placement rate so you got to think they are doing something right.
Re:Devry (Score:2)
I didn't know there were Humanities requirements. And I have to admit that I've sleepwalked trough 6 required Division II courses that amounted to nothing more than busy work and time spent away from the lab. I don't begrudge the time as a handfull of A's does help make up for sucky Calculus grades.
I guess what I'm saying is a BS implies that I not only learned my field but can also do the drudge work outside my major.
Unfortunately I guess I represent most of the rest of the country when I percieve a DeVry student as someone who skipped the humanaties courses for a quick technical degree. I am wrong.
You don't have to have a degree, but.. (Score:4, Interesting)
Biggest drawback to UofP... (Score:2, Interesting)
Ludicrous tuition. Online learning should be cheap. University of Phoenix is silly expensive, especially for out-of-country types (Canadians like me).
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Re:Biggest drawback to UofP... (Score:1)
You're a Canadian? I didn't think us Canadians were fimiliar with that concept.
..
Re:Biggest drawback to UofP... (Score:1)
Learning or cheap?
:)
UMUC (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:UMUC (Score:1)
It definately wasn't a computer science program
But, on the other hand, it gave me the piece of paper that I was looking for
qualifications & getting a job (Score:1)
No, you're fine (Score:4, Funny)
No, I think the BS you already have will do nicely. "IT consultant" my ass.
Do yourself a favor (Score:4, Insightful)
Forget about the IT consulting for now unless you can do it part time, and spend the next 4-6 years in college.
I'm now 29, married with a 2 year old and working very hard to get a degree (ie. up all night doing homework). Not having the degree hasn't prevented me from getting a good paying job, but I know I could have done better with the degree. At this point in my career I don't think I can progress much more without it. I've sort of hit the "no degree ceiling".
When I was your age I thought "who needs a degree when people are willing to pay me this much without it". Don't give in to that reasoning, it's short term thinking. I don't care how smart you are, a degree is a must. You might not miss it 5 years from now, but I know you will wish you had gotten it 10 or 15 years from now if you don't. If for no other reason, because 90% of those you will be competing with for salary and jobs will have it.
I don't care if you have to get a loan and live poorly for the next few years, it will be worth it!
The myth of the college uneducated sucess (Score:1)
This may have been possible before the internet boom, due to a lack in college educated cs people, and the knowledge difference between those with a highschool education and those with a college wasn't that great. Such is not the case now.
You'll be competing against those with bachelors and masters, and you won't have as much to offer the company. Even if you know worlds more than a particular college educated person, the piece of paper they hold is more valuable. Most managers are held accountable for the people they higher, and that diploma acts as insurance.
Also, if you do get a job with the company, you'll not be able to rise above grunt coder or lower management. Those are skills taught in college, that can't be learned by just hacking code.
Re:The myth of the college uneducated sucess (Score:1)
That being said, I would never consider myself a 'lone genius', but I do think that a good work ethic, being able to accuratly and diplomatically voice your opinions, and not getting involved in office politics/cliques helped me get to a comfortable position without more than good solid book learning.
Or maybe I'm just pulling your leg...
Re:The myth of the college uneducated sucess (Score:1)
Incidently, do they pay you what the position is worth or a couple thousand less?
UC Berkeley online (Score:2, Interesting)
re: the need for a degree at all --
I graduated with a degree in Chinese literature (minor in CS), and I had no problems getting offers from selective companies (for very technical positions). You're much more than your IT skills -- you might want to round yourself out (you'll have IT jobs on the side, or during summer) or learn about something new. The money/career will probably be there when you're done, if that's what you're looking for.
Don't sell yourself short, and remember to keep your head about you -- it's not all about money.
Seasoned Veteran (Score:1)
My take on it (Score:2, Informative)
While I'm not sure that the education is as rigorous as I'd like, the degree is legit and there's nothing to stop me from going to the U of Washington campus to take more math and such. While the credits are more expensive, individually at UoP ($400 per credit vs. $300 per credit at U of Washington), UoP recognized twice as many of my previous college credits, which means I'll complete my degree nearly two years earlier than if I'd gone the other route.
Sad fact is that if you're working for a major corporation, particularly in the government sector, the degree's important. Not only is there a certain status attached to your level of education, but many companies have internal rules governing rate of pay and advancement level limits based on degree. Online education is becoming more and more acceptable and companies are beginning to realize that it is a real education, as opposed to a diploma mill. The bottom line for me is: It doesn't matter where that education comes from; what I get out of it is entirely up to me.
Don't go to UoP (Score:2, Informative)
It was absolutely pathetic.
The teacher didn't know what she was teaching.
The teacher handed out exams that had blatant errors (do you really want me to write out the results of a 100 Million Cartesian product?!?)
The teacher believed the book when it recommended human-readable primary keys! (ie: US-AZ-24-90 Made in the US, in Arizona, and for Trucks (24)... that's what unique columns are for. It's a mess when the plant moves to Mexico... and you know it will).
The teacher couldn't answer questions. (In Access, can you select the Count(*)? [Yes: It allows you to return counts including null fields, and is much faster])
The book actually gave different answers for the same question, exemplified when we had an open book exam. Everyone took the answer from the chapter we were on... the teacher graded on the answer 5 chapters later.
We were forced to use a data modeling program that no one had ever heard of, and were not allowed to use, oh, Visio.
By the end of the class, fellow students twice my age were asking me the questions, and ignoring her answers.
I wrote a letter describing the situation in much more political terms, CC: to everyone all the way up to President, and never received a response.
All you do at UoP is purchase a degree. You almost can't fail. You get A's almost without trying. (of course you have to do the simplistic work)
While I don't claim to know everything, I was a Sr. Developer/Analyst consulting at Best Western, and have since worked for a couple more top-100 companies.
What I will be doing next is going to evening/distance learning courses offered by a reputable university. Not only will it have good name recognition, it's cheaper, and more taxing on the mind (which is why you get education: otherwise, buy your degree from UoP and prove it in your interview).
Posting anonymously so they can't sue Slashdot for who I am... Even those these are just my opinions.
Perfect hash table (Score:1)