More Ergonomic Keyboards 84
tve writes "Back when moderators were real moderators, karma whores were real karma whores and small, furry creatures living in the mould deep down in your keyboard were real small, furry creatures living in the mould deep down in your keyboard, Slashdot ran a story about ergonomic keyboards. Popular keyboards back then appeared to be the MS Natural keyboard, the famous prehistoric IBM keyboards and for the lucky few who had their company buy it for them, the Maltron keyboard. However, times have changed, keyboards have decayed and new purchases need to be made. So I submit to the Slashdot community: what is the current holy grail of ergonomic typing pleasure, where can I get it and is it affordable for a student on a budget?" Actually we've done a couple of stories on ergonomic keyboards, but since this is asked so frequently I suppose it won't hurt to do another.
Not much, really . . . (Score:2)
Some Logitech keyboards looked okay, but all of them that I found were cordless, which is something I don't want. In the end I settled for some cheap $10 non-ergonomic replacement because nothing fit the bill.
I'm guessing that Microsoft's got some sort of patent on the contour-shape of the Natural keyboard because nobody else seems to have them. Even the Logitech cordless ones weren't quite as good.
Anyway, there's a few cents worth . . .
Re:Not much, really . . . (Score:1)
Well then, just don't pay for it
Re:Not much, really . . . (Score:2)
Yeah, I suppose that's one way of solving the problem. :P Of course, stealing the keyboard would only harm the store, as they'd just buy another one from Microsoft to replace the one they didn't have anymore. So in the end, I may as well have just bought the keyboard. Drat.
On the other hand, I've fonud that regular keyboards aren't that much of a problem for me (although when the carpal tunnel bug eventually bites me, I'm sure I'll have something different to say about it).
No patent (Score:2)
I can't find a manufacturer's name on it and I forgot who made it, but the bottom says, "smart keyboard" and I got it at CompUSA for 30 bucks.
Re:No patent (Score:2)
Re:No patent (Score:2)
got it at CompUSA, I'm sure. Maybe Microsoft forced the company to take the thing of the market.
The Natural Keyboard Has Changed (Score:1)
The function keys are 1/2 the size, and the arrows are a cross instead of an inverted T, and the HOME/END/DEL/PGUP/PGDN/INS keys are 2x3 instead of 3x2
Ugh
Re:The Natural Keyboard Has Changed (Score:1)
You can get the Natural with the "Old style" T and 2x3 (Pro model) or the newer style of X and 3x2.
I have to agree that the cross stlye sucks.
Re:The Natural Keyboard Has Changed (Score:1)
The Natural Pro has the keys right, but, it has that annoying row of 'internet access buttons' at the top.
We should do an Ask Slashdot about using those extra buttons....
Re:The Natural Keyboard Has Changed (Score:1)
Re:The Natural Keyboard Has Changed (Score:1)
Re:The Natural Keyboard Has Changed (Score:1)
The natural keyboard is back and almost better (Score:1)
The feature button at the top are actualy pretty nice to have but I haven't found a way to get them to work properly on Linux yet.
Never the less those new ones bring back the nice arrow keys (if you are like me you don't really use those for games anyways).
For me it's back to MS natural keyboard pro and this time I bought a few just to make sure I get to keep something I am comfy with.
Re:The natural keyboard is back and almost better (Score:1)
If they produce scancodes (check with xev) then you can use something like jerukey to get them to work.
Re:Roll-up keyboards (Score:2)
Re:Roll-up keyboards (Score:1)
Re:Roll-up keyboards (Score:1)
Re:Roll-up keyboards (Score:1)
Happy Hacking Keyboard (Score:2, Insightful)
The Happy Hacking Keyboard [pfuca.com]!
Not exactly ergonomic in the usual sense of the word, though...
Re:Happy Hacking Keyboard (Score:2, Insightful)
I understand that is compact and doesn't have caplocks, but seriously, is that worth 50 beans?
I personally think they're neat, and I would like to have one, but I would rather shell out a few extra for a nice ergonomic or wireless kbd...
Re:Happy Hacking Keyboard (Score:2)
Yes, it's worth it. It's not that it doesn't have Caps Lock, it's that it does have Ctrl somewhere that doesn't strain your hand to reach. I am exceedingly happy with it (the Lite2), and if I ever need a number pad I'll just get a USB jobbie for it.
I switched to Dvorak at the same time, and the pain I sometimes got from typing (particularly using Unix, or writing TeX) completely disappeared.
Re:Happy Hacking Keyboard (Score:1)
Re:Happy Hacking Keyboard (Score:2)
If you use a PC. If your only use of that PC is in X11.
I happen to use Irix and OS X most of the time, and they make it fairly difficult - the control key on my iBook is literally incapable of being remapped, and thus far I've missed the special foo that Irix seems to need for it.
When I'm not using OS X or Irix, I tend to use a vga console on a PC... again, no easy and consistent way to remap CapsLock.
Do it in hardware: it's reliable, doesn't surprise you, and it's a damn fine keyboard anyways.
Re:Happy Hacking Keyboard (Score:1)
I carry it with me all the time, and I never have to adjust to diferent key sizes/positions.
I have changed laptops several times, and it is always a pain to compensate muscular memory for diferent layouts, but with the HHK never again.
But the real ergonomical gain for me was the switch to Dvorak when I got my HHK, it is just amazing how confortable you feel once you learn it, I agree completly with you.
Re:Happy Hacking Keyboard (Score:3, Interesting)
The nicest keyboards I know of in that line are from Lexmark. Some laptops (e.g. Dell) have keyboards with a very nice feel, and some companies repackage laptop keyboards separately. However, Dell laptop keyboards (which seem have rubber-dome switches) are very, very unreliable.
Try it for yourself (Score:4, Interesting)
There's no one singular answer for this, you really need to try these things out for yourself until you find something that works. For me, the Kinesis-Ergo [kinesis-ergo.com] has been amazing. Not only can I type like a demon and avoid wrist pain, but the thumb-located Ctrl and Alt keys make (X)Emacs that much easier to work with, not to mention easier on my pinkies :-)
Re:Try it for yourself (Score:2)
Peace,
(jfb)
Re:Try it for yourself (Score:1)
Re:Try it for yourself (Score:2)
Re:Try it for yourself (Score:1)
When programming, your hand motion is very much reduced because the arrow buttons are not off to the right side, they are distributed 'below' the cvbnm,. line on the keyboard, and on the thumbs. The result is that you can really cruise between navigating and typing.
My only complaint is that the escape key and the F keys are membrane-squishy things instead of real keys. My escape key is starting to break down, and I have to make sure I pressed it every time. Another few months and I'll buy a replacement. Kinesis.
Kinesis works for me (Score:4, Informative)
That said, a keyboard is like a monitor; be sure to try one out in person before you drop $250 on one.
Peace,
(jfb)
Re:Kinesis works for me (Score:1)
Re:Kinesis works for me (Score:1)
Nothing else I've tried comes close to matching the comfort and usability of these keyboards. The Classic model can be found for under $200 at online resellers.
See www.kinesis-ergo.com [kinesis-ergo.com] for more information and a list of online resellers.
Miller
Re:Kinesis works for me (Score:1)
I'd just like some feedback before I go shelling out two weeks of my pay instead of paying for food -- ahh, the joys of being a college student
Try going for the Goldtouch (Score:3, Informative)
KING OF THE HILL - CLASSIC KB USERS UNITE! (Score:2, Informative)
It's still my main KB at home - Subspace Continuum wouldn't be the same without it! My only gripe is the placement of the '\' key NOT being above ENTER, but right side of R-SHIFT, and no "Flying Windows" keys. Oh well, CTRL+ESC still works.
Interestingly, it came with a groovy keycap puller tool and every year or two, I have to pull all the keycaps off and clean them in alcohol and chip the crust off the underpanel.
Re:KING OF THE HILL - CLASSIC KB USERS UNITE! (Score:2)
I don't use 'em anymore because my wrists were starting to die. I have to admit that this @#%&( Microsoft Natural Keyboard deal is actually helping.
HOWever, if you want an OmniKey with Flying Windows keys, you might want to look at an Avant Stellar [cvtinc.com] keyboard. Manufactured based on the original OmniKey blueprints, or something. They're fully programmable now, too. Cost a lot, but you know these things'll last a lifetime.
Make sure you're actually looking at the Stellar and not the Avant Prime, which has no side F-Keys.
Alternatives to the Sun Keyboard & Sun Mouse? (Score:2)
I can't stand the Sun Keyboard, and I much, much prefer the feel of the MS Natural keyboard (I like the tilted, split layout, the Ctrl key is in the right place).
There are some disadvantages to my setup:
- I still need the occasional key on the Sun keyboard, so I have the Sun Keyboard, a Sun mouse, a MS Natural Keyboard and MS Intellimouse all plugged into a "Sun Interface Converter"
- You can't cut-n-paste with the MS Mouse. The middle button doesn't work, and hitting the left & right buttons doesn't work. So, I am forced to use a sun mouse (Plugged into the Converter). The Sun mouse's ergonomic styling is annoyingly bad, and it's mouse movements are very non-smooth
- Many keys on the MS Natural Keyboard don't work.
- I can't figure out how to make the ALT key work as a META key in Emacs.
- The BACKSPACE key brings up the Emacs Help File
- I can't figure out how to make use of the dead Windows95 keys, or of the Home End Insert keys, or the F1-F12 function keys
- I have this fancy scroll wheel on my MS Mouse, but I can't figure out how to use it.
Where would a poor chap like me look for help? I've been looking around, and I see alot of similar questions about this posted to Usenet, but I see few answers.
I can't even figure out where I need to go to convert these keys. Sawfish has some configuration options, Gnome has some other configuration options, I'm sure sun has yet another set of configuration options -- but I can't find the configuration command worth a damn.
Where can I look for help? What can I do?
Re:Alternatives to the Sun Keyboard & Sun Mous (Score:1)
Re:Alternatives to the Sun Keyboard & Sun Mous (Score:1)
XEmacs works fine... my backspace error only happens with Emacs.
Re:Alternatives to the Sun Keyboard & Sun Mous (Score:1)
or better yet keep using vi.
Re:Alternatives to the Sun Keyboard & Sun Mous (Score:1)
DataDesk SmartBoard (Score:1)
1. Nice key action. You get a good click. Of course this makes it a bit noisy.
2. The key layout is slightly better than a normal keyboard. The stagger of the keys is removed, so they all sit in lines along the movements of your joints. The first week was frustrating while I made typing errors. After that, I found that I typed a bit faster with a lot less finger movement. I don't have any trouble using other keyboards.
I paid about $80 for mine, which is pretty reasonable for an ergonomic keyboard. I consider it one of the best computer purchases I've ever made: I can type all day without ever having hand troubles. I've never had that experience with any other keyboard.
I'm not affiliated with DataDesk at all. I'm just a very happy customer!
Cheapness and a Plug (Score:3, Informative)
I emphasize the word "real". Cheap, useless knockoffs are the curse of ergonomic products. Not that hard to make something that looks ergonomic. Raise your hand if you've ever tried to use one of those $50 "back chairs" that are guaranteed to destroy your leg muscles. These are imitations of some Swedish item that might actually be pretty good, but nobody sells.
Anyway, here's a plug: I'm profoundly satisfied with the Goldtouch keyboard [goldtouch.com]. What caught my eye was its small footprint. (The theory is that this reduces mouse-related RSI.) To make this work, they put a lot of thought into rearranging the keys. I'm impressed with the result, even though it took me a while to get used to the layout. The design makes it much harder to hit the wrong cursor key, something I used to do a lot.
Other good features I won't go into. But not cheap: $160.
Model M baby (Score:5, Funny)
Discover for Yourself (Score:2, Insightful)
Belkin ErgoBoard (Score:1)
The one thing I don't like about it are the power and suspend buttons on the upper right. Disabled them by opening up the keyboard and sticking a piece of paper between the membranes.
Old PS/2 keyboards (Score:3, Interesting)
--Mike--
Re:Old PS/2 keyboards (Score:1)
I find them in old offices, and at places we do consulting. They are usually glad to give you their "old crap" for free!
Or, bid for them on eBay!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&i
On a side note, I also like this style:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&i
Re:Old PS/2 keyboards (Score:2)
Re:Old PS/2 keyboards (Score:1)
I still have my old IBM keyboard, from years ago, and am very happy with it. But my wife hates the noise!!
-Kit
Trackpoint keyboards! (Score:1)
It's gotten to the point that it feels noticeably uncomfortable for me to use my desktop pc, since I have to move my hand over to the dang mouse all the time! Thankfully, IBM has a really nice keyboard which not only has an integrated trackpoint, but has a reduced size, much like the Happy Hacking keyboard!
If only they weren't $150, I'd get one right away. Unfortunately, it's stuck on my wishlist for now.
Space Saver 2 Keyboard - Black [ibm.com]
and there's a usb, too:
Trackpoint USB Space Saver Keyboard - Black(US English) [ibm.com]
Re:Trackpoint keyboards! (Score:2)
D
Re:Trackpoint keyboards! (Score:1)
Never mind carpal tunnel, what about eyestrain? (Score:3, Interesting)
Skip the keyboard and get a better mouse (Score:3, Informative)
What made the biggest difference for me, actually, was learning to mouse with my left hand (suggested by the ergo guy at my last job). That way the mouse is closer to center when you are seated at the keyboard, since it's right next to the keys rather than off past the numberpad. Thus, your arm isn't reaching out so far to mouse. Also, the stresses are better balanced between the left (mousing) and right (writing) hands.
Not exactly an answer to your question, just something to consider.
Re:Skip the keyboard and get a better mouse (Score:1)
Yes! I've been doing that way for ten years, since shortly after I starting using a box with an attached rodent on a regular basis. Helps enormously.
That, a mousepad with a built-in wrist rest, a simply keyboard wrist rest, and a cheap old "Suntouch" keyboard ($5 from the Goodwill!) with just the right action. (Most new keyboards are just too damn mushy, IMHO.)
And when I'm doing a lot of typing, I'll wear a pair of SmartGloves [imakproducts.com] for extra support; but I don't use them day-to-day.
Re:Skip the keyboard and get a better mouse (Score:1)
Typing Injury FAQ (Score:3, Interesting)
Personnally I use a Twiddler [handykey.com]. Some folks don't care for them but I love mine. There is a bit of learning curve and the mouse buttons can be a bit squirlly. It has 16 keys, 4 modifyers, and a track point. You type by makeing cords. The track point moves the mouse and puts the 16 keys into mouse button mode(little squirlly).
IBM Model M (Score:3, Informative)
They're cheap, too. Look around flea markets for old models. My first was $5 US, the other three $2.50 each. Or if you must have new ones, check Unicomp [pckeyboard.com], and look at the Customizer.
Best Keyboard Ever (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Best Keyboard Ever (Score:1)
Re:Best Keyboard Ever (Score:1)
Best Keyboard I ever used... (Score:3, Interesting)
The best keyboard I have EVER used was on an IBM PS/2 Model P70. (That was a portable PS/2 with an orange-colored gas plasma display. The box had a 386 running at 20 MHz and weighed about 20 pounds!)
The keyboard had an extremely light feel to it, with tactile feedback; it took almost no effort to type and it NEVER, EVER missed a key I typed on it. I could absolutely fly on that keyboard and at the end of the day I had no fatigue at all!
I've been looking over the past several years for a keyboard like it and have had absolutely NO luck. If any /.'ers out there remember this wondeful keyboard, and can suggest a comparable one, I'd be forever grateful!
I find ergo keyboards worse than regular keyboards (Score:1)
When I use an ergo split keyboard, my wrists hurt in under 10 minutes. yet, i can go all day on a regular keyboard.
can't figure it out
Nobody mentioned the DataHand? (Score:2, Interesting)
At $1300 I've never used one, but it sure looks pretty
Re:Nobody mentioned the DataHand? (Score:2, Informative)
PROS:
Integral keyboard and mouse. The key-operated mouse function is clumsy and slow, but having a single hand position for both is a big plus, ergonomically.
Also, after the learning curve, I can type much faster on the datahand than I ever could on any other keyboard. It enables you (or rather, forces you) to touch type not only the alphabet, but also the numbers and punctuation. And it's FAST.
Best of all, my experience (YMMV) was that that my RSI problems have gone away totally. No more wrist, finger, elbow and shoulder pain!
CONS:
As supplied, it's useless unless you happen to like the pronated angle. I happen to like the hands suparnated about 60 degrees, and had to modify the keyboard. Buy two swivelling camera mounts, bolt them to the table at the right spacing, and attach the hand units. Voila! Ugly but very effective.
It's available only in PS2, not USB. This can be a problem with some workstations (e.g. HP). A Y-mouse PS2/USB adaptor can fix this problem, but it took a lot of fiddling to find one that works right.
The learning curve is a little steep. It took almost a week to become productive, and perhaps 3 months before my typing speed had caught up with my original flat keyboard speed.
The key spacings are just a little too far apart. For people with large hands, that's great. I have one large and one small hand, and for the small one, it's a stretch.
The quality is a little dicey. I've had to return it for repair 3 times in the 3 years I've used it.
Despite all these problems, it's still the best thing since sliced bread.
What about chording keyboards? (Score:1)
Re:What about chording keyboards? (Score:2)
I used to have left handed one and a logitech trackball. Pretty neat not having to move my arms to type and click.
The down side is that with modern kbs you need to chord well over 100 different keys.
http://www.ergo-2000.com/ (Score:2)
Good luck
MS Natural put top row 6 on the wrong side. (Score:1)
Fellowes (Score:1)
I think I've headed off Carpal Tunnel Syndrome before it got serious by moving to this keyboard, so I'd definitely recommend it!
analog solutions..or...ergonomic pens (Score:1)
http://www.penagain.com/ [penagain.com]
DISCLAIMER: I am doing some work for this company. But I've played with the prototype, and I think it's very impressive.
Virtually Indestructible Keyboard (Score:1)
has anyone tried one? [grandtec.com]
there's also some whack ass keyboards up in here [keyalt.com]