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The Internet

What Software Should ISPs Distribute and Support? 338

Posted by timothy from the mozilla-galeon-gaim-and-xchat dept.
BroadbandBradley asks: "Many ISPs give their customers a software package to install with their service like a branded browser/email package. Some also include network diagnostics tools, even remote connection VNC packages for technical reps to do remote support. The ISP will then tell customer that they'll only get help if they're using that package. What features are good or bad, and what should or shouldn't be included on the client side? My question to Slashdot readers is, what software and services should ISPs distribute and support?"
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What Software Should ISPs Distribute and Support? More

What Software Should ISPs Distribute and Support?

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  • Software (Score:5, Informative)

    by cluge ( 114877 ) on Friday March 29, 2002 @05:46PM (#3249877) Homepage
    No matter what we support, the answer to most calls is still "Reboot, reconnect it should work now". No matter what is installed, 80% of our calls will be OS related problems.

    • Re:Software (Score:2, Insightful)

      by pcgamez ( 40751 )
      Yet at the same time, for those of us that know what we are doing, the retarded reps who keep saying to reboot and reconnect or to reset the IP only frusterate people more!
      • For those of you that know what your doing, you have already rebooted. For those that don't, it fixes problems so often that it is a solution after leading people through trouble shooting and all their settings seem correct.

    • Re:Software (Score:5, Funny)

      by PeterClark ( 324270 ) on Friday March 29, 2002 @06:30PM (#3250109) Journal
      Ah, Windows. That reminds me of the following call between a customer (running Linux) and some telephone monkey. The problem was that the dial-up connection was problamatic. Sometimes the customer would dial-in and connect, but after that, nothing. All packets just disappeared into the bit bucket. The only solution was to hang up and dial again, which usually solved the problem. After explaining this, the following discussion ensued:

      Monkey: Very well sir, what version of Internet Explorer are you running?

      Customer: I'm not using IE, I'm using Mozilla.

      Monkey: Mozilla? (pause) Well, in any case, open up IE.

      Customer: I don't have IE installed. I'm running Linux.

      Monkey: I'm sorry, sir, we only support Windows.

      Customer: I just want to know what if the problem is with my modem or with your server, that's all. It shouldn't matter what OS I'm using.

      Monkey: I'm sorry, sir, but you'll have to be running Windows in order for us to determine that.

      Customer: (Decides that lying would be easier) Ok, let me switch to my other computer. It's running WindowsMe. (pauses for a few seconds, loads Mozilla, then: ) Ok, I'm at my other computer. And I have IE open.

      Monkey: Very good sir. Now, do you have a second line that you can use?

      Customer: (lies again) Yes. Should I connect now?

      Monkey: Yes.

      Customer: Ok, I'm connected, but I can't load any web sites.

      Monkey: Try... (gives ISP's web page)

      Customer: Nope, that didn't work. Nothing is showing up, and the little network icon in the toolbar doesn't show any activity, either.
      Monkey: Sounds like a problem with IE. Try rebooting and then see if that doesn't fix the problem.

      Customer: But it's not just IE! It doesn't work on my Linux computer, either!

      Monkey: Maybe you need to reboot Linux, too, sir.


      Any resemblence to any person, living or dead, is strictly coincidental, due to the high numbers of incompetent telephone monkeys in the world.


      :Peter

      • Re:Software (Score:4, Funny)

        by cpeterso ( 19082 ) on Friday March 29, 2002 @06:45PM (#3250178) Homepage

        Did you try rebooting Linux? I have Linux 7.2 and this usually works for me.

      • Re:Software (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 29, 2002 @07:25PM (#3250360)
        (Off-topic.)
        Yes, tech support reps are monkeys. Stories of their blatant monkeyness abound, each more amusing than the last. Ha ha.

        But. For just a second here, put yourself in the monkeysuit. You make $8/hr, and your work schedule is such that you're manning the phones every friday and saturday night until 2 AM. You are disrespected nearly every single time you answer the phone, and nearly every time you open a new company memo. This same company forgets you exist until it's time to issue new limits on call handle times or to revise the rules on what you are and aren't allowed to rightfully blame on the network, and the exact phrases you're allowed to use to do so. You go home at night, and bury yourself in o'reilly books and term windows until you figure out that obscure sendmail configuration, sniff your lan packets until you can practically read your email in hex, and study RFCs until your eyes cross, just for the love of the ideas and the technology. Then, the next day, you go back to work...and nothing you did matters. You're still disrespected from both directions. You still have no chance of promotion and, as far as the rest of the world is concerned, no real job skills. You're still a monkey.

        Now, parlay that feeling into a willingness to violate company policy (which could well get you terminated, and then it's back to the QuickStop to sling lotto tickets at minimum wage) to support some smartass know-it-all (remember, tone of voice is everything...) who wants you to drag every single detail out of him, and then lies to you about what's happening on his end.

        Not easy, is it?

        Mod however you want. I'm just sick of the cheap shots. And gimme my damn banana.

        • Re:Software (Score:4, Insightful)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 29, 2002 @10:29PM (#3251340)
          You're right, but as a consumer, what's my alternative?

          In my house, I have 5 computers, my main computer is a win2K workstation, 2 kids have Macs, I have a linux server, and my wife uses Win2K workstation as well to do work.

          They're all nat'd through a linksys firewall/gateway.

          And when you call the monkey (as you call him/her), they refuse to help unless you are running their spyware on a Windows box and if you say you have a firewall, that's basically the end of the support.

          Now, you KNOW the problem is on their end, and you also KNOW that the 1st level support doesn't know squat about network status. So my strategy is to lie to them to get to 2nd level. But 2nd level guys are nice, they have a clue, but the company won't tell them dick about network status.

          meanwhile nobody will fucking help you because they keep telling you to reboot your PC and play with your TCP/IP stack. Never mind that it worked an hour ago, these guys don't want to know it, and they tell you politely, "sorry sir, I can't tell you anymore", and they really mean it!

          So as a consumer, what the FUCK do you expect me to do. My asscheeck are spreadwide, I no longer have any dignity, no chance of help from the fucking cable company, the fucking telco is such a fucking monopolist that they refuse to do DSL unless you're fucking jessus christ of nazareth. So you're stuck. And you're paying. And no one can help you. And then you tell me, "pity the 1st line tech, they're doing all they can do".

          Maybe, but they're my link to the company, and I have nothing else to try.

          Sorry, but that's the state of the world.
        • and remember, this time--and 99% of the time--it is the phone lines, nothing you can do about it, because Mr. Linux Guru doesn't know how to use simple tools like ping and traceroute.

          Because 99% of the time the problem is the user.

          And the other 99% of the time it *is* Windows.

          For every day we have a hardware failure our our upstream provider screws up their DNS, there are 363 that the problem is not with the ISP (your mileage may vary with larger ISPs)

      • Re:Software (Score:4, Informative)

        by shyster ( 245228 ) <.brackett. .at. .ufl.edu.> on Friday March 29, 2002 @07:46PM (#3250465) Homepage
        Ah, Windows. That reminds me of the following call between a customer (running Linux) and some telephone monkey. The problem was that the dial-up connection was problamatic. Sometimes the customer would dial-in and connect, but after that, nothing. All packets just disappeared into the bit bucket. The only solution was to hang up and dial again, which usually solved the problem. After explaining this, the following discussion ensued:

        You know, I used to work tech support, and I realize that this sort of stuff goes on. But, IMO, if your computer savvy enough to know what's going on, then you shouldn't be calling tech support unless you know it's their problem. Tech support is for the computer dummies. The NOC is for computer geeks. And if they won't escalate your call after relaizing that you're more competent than them, you need to switch ISP's. My god, man...it's a dial-up account. Not broadband. You do have a choice.

        As an aside, it's usually pretty easy to get the NOC's number. Just call up the switchboard and ask. If that doesn't work, call up and say you're with a local networking outfit and need the NOC. If the NOC thinks I'm full of shit, then they're free to push me thru tech support. Of course, I only call the NOC when I've gone through the troubleshooting to prove that it's their end, and after a reasonable amount of downtime has elapsed...no need to pull one of them away from the downed router so I can let them know their router is down.

      • You called Qwest didn't you...sounds like someone from one of our Call Centers...

        If you ever have to call qwest, immediately ask to talk to Tier 1.5 and don't let them talk you out of it or tell you they don't exist...

        Linux Experience-
        Tier 1(the main people)-2% (at most)
        Tier 1.5-probably 50%

        Competience
        Tier 1-40%
        Tier 1.5-95% (Ben is the best over there)

        ........

        To answer the question, though, Qwest only Supports IE 5.x, Netscape 4.x, Win>=95, Mac OS >=8 != X.

        ---------------------

        I have heard horror stories and taken calls where the customer has had techs worst than the customer...

        Caller-"I don't seem to have hyperterminal"
        Tech-"I am sorry sir, you will have to reinstall Windows"

        !

        This was in the case notes for a caller...

        "
        OS:Windows Lynux....
        ISSUE:told caller that I would not support him
        TROUBLESHOOTING:told caller that I would not support him
        RESOLUTION:told caller that I would not support him

        "
        !
        ...and more case notes...

        "
        ...
        EMAIL:Eudora
        ISSUE:caller wants pop servers
        TROUBLESHOOTING:told him that we would not give them to him because we don't support Eudora
        ....
        "

        !

        I loved it when I was listening to calls during training and I heard a tech say..."What is Linux". The problem is, is that many of the techs at our place are either >50 yrs old or ex-cons on work release. Many only come to get the training. The first week of training is horrible, the first lesson was on how to double click.

        You aren't the only linux user to do that. I had a guy that claims he was using windows 95...

        Me-"Ok, what do you see in that control panel"
        Caller-"Umm...I don't know"
        Me-"Just read it off"
        Caller-"Ok, I am using Linux, I know you don't support it, so I guess I will had to get windows on here"
        Me-"JNo, Its OK, you should have told me..."

        If anyone wants, I will throw up a webpage with complete case notes of junk like this...just email me.

        FYI...I will support any OS, I have even had FreeBSD.

      • Re:Software (Score:2, Interesting)

        by bonzi_buddy ( 569937 )
        Okay imagine for one moment you had this as your job. Day in and day out people calling in talking about "yellow triangles" and "everytime you tell me to right click on the desktop nothing happens (come to find out they had a pen and were writing the word click on their desk)" every second for 8 hours a day. Then after 400 calls of a 75 year old man complaining "he is out of internet and needs refilled" you get someone with a flavor of Linux. Or a Mac of some sort. Add this to you only ever seeing a computer as something that has windows on it. Okay you can trouble shoot problems to a degree but with no formal training outside of learning how to use Yahoo Messenger before getting your job you sometimes overlook the obvious. Couple this with a two week paycheck that adds up to just enough to buy the latest version of Command and Conquer and you have my dilemma as a call center manager. Not everyone has played with any version of Linux ( although I have setup a redhat box as a learning station that usually draws blank stares ) or even seen a real live Mac. Sure you are going to run into that in tech support, AT ANY LEVEL, WITH ANY COMPANY. You are forgetting the fundemental idea here. Your example here is tainted as you probably had a better idea of what was going on then the support person you called into. A simple question of "is there anyone one there familier with Linux" would have probably got you a answer you desired. But to expect a ISP of any size to have a entire call center filled with people who can compile their own Kernal's and have a clue as to what the Chooser is is probably not in existance. But to have a call center with some people that are able to help customers that use an OS that is not bundled with there Dell is very very likely. It bothers me when I get a customer like the example you have described that instead of simply asking "okay is anyone there familier with -fill in the Linux version-" you automatically take aim and fire. The key to this whole rant is simple, it is you that called in for help in the first place. This does not excuse the fact that the customer support rep didn't ask any real questions besides blaming packet lose on IE, although if you did have IE it probably would be to blame. All I am asking is that you have a little patience with the person who picks up the phone next time, and you would be surprised to see you get a much higher level of satisfaction with that call.
    • As the System Administrator for a regional ISP, I fully agree with the "Reboot, reconnect it should work now" philosophy. I'd have to say that a vast majority of the problems (for windows users anyways) is just a Windows OS that's decided that it didn't like being up as long as it has been. We use the term "Shut up and reboot" as Dogbert put so well in the dilbert strip available here [gfisk.com].

      We've also come up with a certain number of phrases to accurately describe certain customers. "Chronic Clue Vacuum Disease" is when they just plain can't get it even though you explain it to them a thousand times. "PEBKAC" is an acronym we use for "Problem Exists Between Keyboard and Chair" (you figure it out). And so on. Our latest is "Twelve o'clock flasher" which originated from the piece "Welcome to the Internet Helpdesk [mp3s.com]" which is available on mp3.com. Trust me, if you've ever dealt with the average internet customer, you want to listen to this and be prepared to be Rolling on the floor laughing.

      To try to get back to the original poster's question, we use a CD which some company sells which has all the normal stuff on it - browser, email, etc. There are several companies out there which basically burn a CD with everything on it and have a automatic configurator which configures the customer's computer.

      As far as what to support, generally we support all of the common web and email clients, and a couple of other select programs. If you have Netscape, IE, Outlook/Outlook Express, Pegasus mail, etc. we can help. Anything beyond the normal, then the customer is on their own. Generally we'll help to the point of "Ok, both Internet Exporer and Netscape works. I'm not sure why Opera won't work and we don't have that here to walk you through it".

      That said, we're probably one of the unusual outfits which will at least try to help you with about any OS and/or software you want to use. We're a FreeBSD shop. The assistant sysadmin runs OpenBSD at home. Linux is probably our biggest hole, but we generally can provide enough information for someone to get Linux to work, and we do have people around who work with linux. Macs are another hole, but again, we can usually help someone through getting one on. And of course (unfortunately) we're well versed with getting Windows Machines on the net.

      • Headspace and timing are critical adjustments to keep the .50cal machine gun working. Lusers' diseases sound like an "Operator Headspace Problem."

        The smartest way to slash tech support costs is to stop supporting IE. "I'm sorry, sir. IE is a buggy piece of software unnecessarily embedded in an even more bug-ridden operating system. We do not have the source code to either, and cannot be expected to know of, much less be able to fix all of their problems. Please call the vendor that sold you the software. If they can't support what they sold you, consider returning it and trying a different browser."

  • VNC ? (Score:4, Funny)

    by Schmendrick ( 555091 ) on Friday March 29, 2002 @05:49PM (#3249893)
    What's the use of VNC if you're unable to get connected !

    Ha ! A can opener in a can !

    • Re:VNC ? (Score:3, Informative)

      by JesseL ( 107722 )

      It may be usefull if the user can connect but isn't able to figure out how to configure their mail/news/IM client.

  • Don't take this the wrong way, but... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Zen Mastuh ( 456254 ) on Friday March 29, 2002 @05:49PM (#3249896)

    the answer is "only products that you have researched and are familiar with". That means that the software is well documented and that you have links to known bugs & other issues. It helps if you have an inside person in that company too. Keep a knowledge base for your employees to eliminate redundant wild goose chases.

    On a side note, you must be pretty brave to be starting a business in a saturated market during an economic downturn. Know something we don't? Most ISPs have already been absorbed by the national chains (AOL, Yahoo, etc...). Good luck.

    • I agree, and I disagree. True, it's very hard to support unknown configurations and unknown software on a customer's system. However, my ISP will support me pretty much regardless of what I'm running. The kicker? I need to convince them that whatever problem I'm having is theirs or at least that I'm not being blatantly stupid. They probably won't teach me ifconfig syntax, but they'll surely tell me what my gateway needs to be on their network. The important point here is that I know enough to ask.

      I really like this ISP precisely because they provide such excellent support, and won't just hang up on me if they hear that I'm not using the latest Redmond-approved OS. Obviously, there are times when they have to tell people that they can't possibly support every possible CPE configuration, but they make a strong effort to help the technically clued even when they may not be using 100%-standard software. This type of effort distinguishes them from their competitors and has earned them my business. I won't hold it against ISPs who will only support a small number of standard configurations, because I understand what's needed to go beyond that, but I also won't do business with them.

    • actually, I work at a Large ISP who uses a package from support.com

      it's got IE and Outlook Express, as well as some customer self support tools that are supposed to be able to resetup everything automatically ...

      IE being a "part of windows" more and more the supported browser gets us hunting down OS issues, which sucks for us.

      we used to use a Netscape package, which is a program you can actually remove from the system and reinstall when it wasn't working well. IE doesn't really let you do that (anymore).

      I'm thinking Mozilla is looking more and more like a good option, not only because it leaves the OS alone, but also the UI consistency between Windows, Macintosh, and Linux. (we don't support Linux YET but I'm sure someday soon we'll have to)

      right now walking a user through options in IE on Windows and IE on a MAC are totally different!! same thing goes for the outlook express packages.

      Although it's not up to me where I work, I want to compile a list and put together a nice package/proposal and see if I can't tip the scales, and make my life easier.

  • the essentials (Score:5, Insightful)

    by oo7tushar ( 311912 ) <slash.@tushar.cx> on Friday March 29, 2002 @05:51PM (#3249908) Homepage
    alternative browsers, ftp clients, software required for connecting to the ISP servers and that's it...the ISPs should not intrude on the users personal computer other than with software required to use the connection.
    • alternative browsers, ftp clients, software required for connecting to the ISP servers and that's it...the ISPs should not intrude on the users personal computer other than with software required to use the connection.

      So, then that would be...no software? Right? All modern OS's include a PPP client. Windows 95b and later, and most Linux distros include a browser. With a browser, it's trivial to get an FTP client. Even without a browser, there's always CLI FTP. The only thing that would fit in your description would be PPPoE software, if the ISP requires it.

      • But the problem with the FTP client is what if the user gets some random ftp client? if the ISP specifically provides a certain client then they can help trouble shoot when a user can't connect. Every little thing helps, help documents, Acrobat Reader for example...

  • This is a pretty stupid question. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by MisterBlister ( 539957 ) on Friday March 29, 2002 @05:52PM (#3249915) Homepage
    This is a rather dumb question...

    Go ahead and mod me down for being a troll or offtopic, but take a look at the other posts here. They prove that the question was dumb to begin with.

    To be more explicit, this question is unanswerable in its current form. More information is needed:

    What user base are you going after? Linux users? Windows users? What OSes are you going to support? What does your technical support organization look like? Are you gunning for experienced surfers? Total newbies?

    • hundreds of technical support reps with all kinds of users. the current IE/OE support.com package takes about 3 reboots to install. we support Win and MAC right now.

      beyond that, IE runs into lots of other issues with adware, and changing the OS around when you upgrade...it makes big waves.

      I'm just wondering what other ISP's use and what kind of issues they've run into.

  • The ISP will then tell customer that they'll only get help if they're using that package.

    This isn't a real big help. I have found that most times I know more about the ISP's network than the average support rep does.
    • Very true. What your average geek needs is not software support, but helpdesk people who are technically competent. Nothing is worse than calling in with a question that any reasonably informed person could answer, and getting some telephone monkey who thinks a typewriter is advanced technology and reads from a script. Gah! You would think that with all the time and effort put into making a script, they would have at least one section entitled, What To Do When The Caller Knows More Than You. And preferably, it would have a list of common geek requests, instead of "Put customer on hold and hope that he or she hangs up."


      :Peter

      • instead of "Put customer on hold and hope that he or she hangs up."


        So what would you tell someone when you have to take a pee.


        Stupid comment on a slow day, which I would preffer to spend at home, rather than reading a lame story posted on slashdot on easter friday which happens to be a very slow day?....Did I mention slow....oh yeah I did.

      • *snerk*

        Bwahhahahaha...

        Oh, man, you are so deluded.

        Do you know where the people who really, *really* know how to do tech support go to?

        The answer is: Ding! Anywhere but tech support. Because tech support work blows, period. It's like working the fry line at McDonalds - once you've grown beyond the ability to do fries, you do whatever it takes to get out of having to do it. Like programming, sysadmin, or even nothing to do with computers at all.

        In other words, the people who would make fantastic tech support people get away from tech support, because those very skills lend themselves to (one hopes) better employment, better pay, and less shackling to a phone line talking to dips who think they know more than you. What do you end up with after they all go away? The dregs. Hence, your problem.

        Besides, the average geek should be able to track down whatever knowledge he needs without having to ask some anonymous person on the phone.

        Most tech support people I know started out as curious geeks, and only became tech support because they found a job where they could get paid for their obscure knowledge. I was one of those guys, and I will never, never, never do tech support again. Ditto for the fry line.

        GMFTatsujin

    • Re:What tech support? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 29, 2002 @06:24PM (#3250080)
      I have found that most times I know more about the ISP's network than the average support rep does.

      Since I used to be the lead tech for my current ISP, I'm definately in the same boat. (Its not unusual that I call tech support to check on something for a mutual customer, and have the ISP's tech as me what command he should run on their server!)

      The arguement that I've had over and over again with technically minded friends who haven't done phone support (supporting your company's employees is quite different) is that there is a tough mental transition that has to happen when you get a clueful person on the phone after dealing with "how do I set up my computer to call the internet" type calls. Its tough to suddenly go from step-by-step instructions and building the new user's confidence to a call where the customer knows more about the subject than you do. When you add in the customers who know just enough to sound like they have a clue (which is about the same point as knowing enough to get themselves into trouble) it gets even tougher.

  • What to support. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by jchawk ( 127686 ) on Friday March 29, 2002 @05:54PM (#3249931) Homepage Journal
    I work for an isp that does mainly dsl and dialup service. As far as software goes, we'll support anything, but most people are running Outlook Express and Internet Explorer. 98% of my software calls are these two programs.

    There really is no reason we can't support any email program, but people just aren't using them at home.

    As far as the VNC idea, great in practice, but how hard is it to configure any web browser or email program over the phone? If something would require VNC, then it's something that you probably shouldn't be tech-ing, refer them to the hardware manufactor. I'm not saying I'm lazy, but my company isn't paying me to fix your virus scan, printer, and hard drive.

    Finally what I would like to see is ISP's forcing people to use HARDWARE MODEMS. Nothing is more frustrating then trying to tech a compaq with a crappy HSP modem that doesn't work if you're using more then 50% of your cpu. :(

  • ISP's (Score:2, Insightful)

    by gizmoiscariot ( 442386 )
    I used to work (and still work within the same parent company) for a pretty large ISP in Southern California. I was unfortunate enough to be tasked with making a software CD. I decided to obviously put Windows software on the disks (Netscape, IE, Opera) and a couple newsreaders and email clients. I also threw on their Opera for Linux and a couple other things. The best answer to the question is: include software in which the tech staff is comfortable with. Obviously, if you include Joe's super Browser(TM) then your going to have problems with support. However, most calls are either OS related "Reboot" or email questions because the person doesnt type in their username correctly. On the flip side, you mine as well include as much software as you can get to fill the CD up because most of the time to make many copies it does not cost more depending on the space, just the volume. Hell, if you want you could always include some linux distro. Then support gets really fun.
  • come with at least a browser of some sort, you should not distribute anything really.
    Give the user the choice. Create a nice initial site that the new user connects to with links to common software. Also provide a page that gives detailed instructions on how to setup their email client, web browser, etc.

    Be one of the few to promote user choice!

  • All optional (Score:3, Informative)

    by steve ( 1027 ) on Friday March 29, 2002 @05:56PM (#3249943) Homepage

    It used to be that the basic software that local isp would send you was a browser (90% of the time it was Netscape) and an email program (like pegasus) that was mostly since most OSes didn't come with anything at all (win 3.x, old Mac OS)
    but now unless you have a portal what's the point in handing anything out as more then a "nice option" ??
    VNC for support is just silly (like someone said above) no connection no support ..
    only thing I would see as usefull would be a virus scanner or something like that.

  • They should be required to install Linux.

    Ok but seriously. If they were running Linux VNC and SSH come to mind. Then the tech support person will never had to talk to a person on the phone and deal with things like
    "Ok press the button on the screen."
    "Ok I'm pressing my finger against the monitor screen.."

    If the tech could do the work directly himself rather than relaying what needs to be done through an inexperienced, incompetent human, things will get done much faster. The user only needs to give the person a username/password to log in.

    As far as I know for windows, VNC is the only thing that would help a situation like stated above.

  • NONE (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Apreche ( 239272 ) on Friday March 29, 2002 @06:00PM (#3249959) Homepage Journal
    ISP's should not distribute any software whatsoever. If they chose to distribute software, or are paid to distribute software they should make it clear whether or not the software is necessary in order to use that ISP. It is OK in some instances such as Cable or DSL to include software only for the purpose of establishing a connection for security reasons.

    Prime examples, 1 good and 1 bad.

    Let's start with the worst, AOL. AOL requires a large piece of memory eating, slow as crap software to connect to the internet and use their service. Everything is proprietary, slow and crappy. I mean, proprietary is sometimes ok, but not if it's slower than the standard.

    SNET internet http://www.snet.net. Their dial up service is exceptional. They give you a cd, but you don't need it. You can use any standard PPP connection software, like the ones built into windows or linux. All the software does it re-configure explorer to say brought to you by snet. If you don't mind it, install it. Their DSL while being fast, amazing, cheap, and everything else is equivalent. It comes with the same non-essential explorer customizing software. And it comes with the little program they use to establish the dsl connection. This is so they can require a name and password and transmit it securely. The software runs under windows. But I've made the dsl work in linux.

    The best ISP in the world, college. Plug computer into wall. Auto configure lan connection with dhcp. Open any type of internet software, it works, fast, and reliable. No extra software needed.

    Thats how it should be.
    • "The best ISP in the world, college. Plug computer into wall. Auto configure lan connection with dhcp. Open any type of internet software, it works, fast, and reliable. No extra software needed."

      Sounds like AT&T Broadband

    • I also like the way DirecTV DSL does things. They give you a CD with a few optional apps, plus a DSL status monitor for Windows. You can follow the CD installation program if you want, and it's really slick, but you don't have to. Their setup manual has all the network settings you'll need if you want to do it manually.

      And the reason they give you those settings is to support Linux installations. Thank God there's a major DSL provider that is aware that Linux exists.

      And best of all, no PPPoE! And they let you run mail and Web servers off your connection if you want. I know that many people do it anyway with other providers, but it sure is nice to have it explicitly stated that you can.

      But to get back on topic, a good ISP should provide a basic package of apps and possibly also a tool to automatically configure a system for someone who is afraid to do so. However, they should also provide that config info to those who are comfortable doing it themselves. As for what to support, I think that knowing something about several different browsers and e-mail apps is important. Where I worked, we would support them up to a point. After we'd done all we could, we'd have to send the user to Microsoft, which I think is entirely proper after we've tried our best to solve the problem. After all, MS writes these apps, so they shouldn't expect other companies to support them. They wrote the code; they can fix it when it breaks.

    • YES! (Score:3, Informative)

      by phillymjs ( 234426 )
      The best example of bad bundled software was @Home's-- it was crap, plain and simple. Wow, you mean you're giving me OLD versions of IE and OE that kill my existing bookmarks, reset my homepage, and wreak other havoc? All just so the browser and mail program have your stupid animated logo instead of the default one? Oh, I can't wait to install it!

      Way back when I got my cable modem (now replaced by DSL), Comcast sent out hardware guys and software guys separately. Mind you, this was long before the days of the self-install kit. The hardware guys did their job, but when the software guy showed up I didn't let him in the door. "Just gimme the config sheet with the server addresses, and be on your way," I said. And he did, and I amazingly survived for years with only the default IE throbber to watch while pages loaded.

      The only useful app in that whole shitty bundle was the one that tested the @Home servers so I could find out exactly what was wrong before calling up to yell at the support monkeys.

      Even worse, the Comcast.net software was even bigger shit-- almost every one of my clients who used @Home had their systems pretty well screwed by running that damned installer. Though on the plus side, I made quite a bit of money un-fucking things for them. :-)

      ~Philly

  • Just an opinion (Score:5, Informative)

    by jd142 ( 129673 ) on Friday March 29, 2002 @06:00PM (#3249962) Homepage
    Don't give them some heavily branded browser that is going to start a lot of junk every time you log in. Simpler is better. Don't install protocols they don't need. When I first got my cable modem, @home tried to install Microsoft Networking, a heavily branded browser and a bunch of other junk. Luckily my computer was still in transit so I just grabbed the modem and the numbers and didn't have to call them back. Why on earth would you want MS networking for a home computer to surf the net?

    Do give them a minimal version of os requirement. If you tell them they need to have windows 95, and that you don't support win3.x, then you know they have a telnet client and will support that, for example.

    Do require a minimum version of both ie and netscape. And then write your web pages to support both equally. Do provide unbranded versions of those browsers on cd and support the installation.

    Do give them a web interface to their e-mail. Support that. And remember the minimal browser recommendation.

    Do give them a real pop account so that those people that know what they are doing can set up their preferred e-mail client. Don't support those clients officially. This gives you control over the interface so your help people will always know what the customer is using.

    For ftp, just pick a program you like. ws_ftpLE on the windows side and something on the mac.

    Now the tough choices, newsgroups and chat. Since the chat clients are going back and forth on interoperability, you'll have to make 2 decisions. You'll have to decide if you are going to support a chat client. I'd personally say no, and here's why. Customers will want to use the client that all of their friends use, so if you tell them you won't support msn chat but will support icq, for example, you could lose customers. The alternative is to support the 3 or 4 major clients, and no more. The problem is that you'll have to keep up with lot's of different version which could be a problem. Of course, I don't do the icq/chat thing so take that with a grain of salt.

    Which brings us to newsgroups. You need to decide if you are going to host them at all, just non-binaries or something in the middle. I'd say that the best reader for windows is Agent. So maybe you could get a licensing deal with them and spread the cost around. The alternative, outlook, doesn't enter into the picture because of security problems.

    But that's just my thoughts.

    • Re:Just an opinion (Score:3, Interesting)

      by ryantate ( 97606 )
      Do make very clear your e-mail storage quota, and establish a mechanism for notifying them when they approach that quota (probably just an email message). If possible, have two quotas, one that's an absolute limit and one they get a few days warning on.

      Sorry, I know this isn't really a software issue, but it can be a major pain [epinions.com] to try and swap important files like PDF documents with people and all of a sudden you are not receiving the messages and, in many cases, the ISP is not even bothering to bounce them back at the sender. It's one of those detail issues you never think of when you start using an ISP (unless you're grizzled) but ends up becoming very important.
      • Oh yes, good point about the quotas. But make sure that if you e-mail a person that they are over quota that the e-mail gets to them. Make your messages override the quota.

        That would be nice for a webmail interface. Have like a stop light or something that is green until you get within 10% of your quota then when you hit your quota it turns red. Something nice and visual for constant feedback.

        When we were on windows 3.x I wrote a wrapper for eudora that warned people when they had less than 5 megs free on their network drive. That worked very well. API changes and cheap harddrives have essentially made it useless now, but it was a nice feature.

  • I work at a small isp that has not been absorbed by a monster yet, and we don't even distribute these disks. We use the microsoft dun, macos's dialer, or whatever for linux. We try to support anything you can bring at us, even stupid things like Microsoft word, or antivirus problems. The bad part about the disks, is that if you sign up over the phone, you have to wait for the disks, we just set them up over the phone.

    It's not impossible to get good service from a small ISP, you just have to look.

  • How about an "I Don't Care" option? (Score:4, Informative)

    by Tackhead ( 54550 ) on Friday March 29, 2002 @06:02PM (#3249972)
    > what software and services should ISPs distrubute and support?"

    The larger the ISP, the larger the marketing department, and consequently, the less I trust bundled ISPware.

    I've been to the homes of n00bs, and seen some truly sickening stuff - one poor person was paying $19.99 per month (the same as any other user), for a custom browser that (a) crashed reproducibly on certain specific emails, (b) beamed banner ads every 30 seconds, and (c) looked like nothing I'd ever seen before - like the worst of Netscape, IE, and AOL rolled into one.) I think it was called Encompass [yahoo.com]. (Acquired, not coincidentally, by Yahoo in 1999).

    Since I saw that, I no longer patronize ISPs that require the use of branded products.

    So my answer to your question would be "I don't give a damn what you may distribute and support, so long as there's an easily-located web page or phone support script that allows me to find the IP addresses of your primary/secondary DNS servers, and the FQDNs of your POP, SMTP, NNTP, FTP and news servers, what number I can use to connect, and what to enter as a name/password combination when I do."

    What you do with the n00bz is your own business.

    Yes, you may not be using adware/spyware/malware - but because I don't trust you, I'm not gonna install your bundle to find out. If I can't set up the box without your branded bundle, I'll just take my business elsewhere.

    • I'll just take my business elsewhere.
      Until the TelCos are one per county/state, when you will have to do their bidding to get connection. And they can get to that state, all that is needed is for big companies to convince government that they aren't really a monopoly, after all there are ... 3 other companies which provide service. Neglecting to mention that none of those companies serve this area.

  • None! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by CrazyBrett ( 233858 ) on Friday March 29, 2002 @06:05PM (#3249986)
    No, seriously. The selling point of any ISP should be the connection itself. Every dollar spent on hiring a programmer to embed the ISP's icon in a custom version of netscape is a dollar that could have been better spent on more hardware, or more competent sysadmins to keep the connection running smoothly.

    Feel free to give the user suggestions about what software to use, and point them to where they can obtain those applications, but don't waste resources putting together silly custom software packages that 1) eat up memory and cpu on the users' machines, and 2) half the users don't install anyway.
    • Given that most computers nowadays can support a PPP connection to the Internet without loading extra software, I think ISP's should provide for more expert users a setup phamplet that tells you how to set up your Internet connection depending on your operating system, including how to set up the web browser so your first connection is to any setup pages the ISP wants.
    • Amen. My DSL looks like this: I have their magic box with RJ-45 socket, to which I can connect anything speaking IP over Ethernet. That's it. They don't care what software I use, they only route my IP packets. Now, if it only was ten times cheaper...

  • None. (Score:2)

    by Ralin ( 564287 )
    Just give me a good connection, I'll handle my software.
  • Perhaps they need to have one all singing all dancing package for mac and windows that is geared towards newbies.

    And then another one where you get bit of paper with server settings for the more advanced users.

    What they really need are competant tech support people - i'm not saying that all isp support people are incompetant (some are in fact VERY competant) but a fair proportion are.

    I'd like to recount my experience with at&t@home:

    me> My connection is down, the modem doesn't seem to be able to establish ip connectivity after it's locked up and down streams

    tech> Try rebooting

    me> done that

    tech> Power cycle the modem

    me> done that

    tech> Did you get the email about the changeover to attbi?

    me> nope (presumably since I dont check my at&t address and they have another one on file anyway)

    tech> ahhh, you need to check your email

    me> but i'm not online

    tech> but if you read this mail then it'll tell you how to get online

    me> i dont think you understand what i'm saying...

    tech> no you dont understand what i'm saying, the email will tell you how to get online.

    ... this goes on for sometime ...
  • When I signed up with my ISP, they asked if I needed any software. I told them "No, I've already got just about everything I need, and I know where to go to get more." Their response was basically "Cool." No questions on what OS I was running, which browser.... They provide setup instructions for Windows, Mac and Linux, and will offer limited network connectivity/application support for those platforms (and some router support for DSL customers). But if you're running Warp Browser on OS/2 (for example), they'll provide you with the network settings and do what they can to get you connected. Other than that, you'd be on your own.

    These days, just about every OS out there comes with all the tools a user needs to get online. If the ISP wants to provide software, the best thing they could do is host a TUCOWS (or similar) mirror, with an easy-to-negotiate interface and search engine.

    I realize that a lot of people need more hand-holding than this, but I personally found it refreshing to deal with an ISP that treats you with a little intelligence....
  • The big problem with the whole ISP model and all goes to the "one size fits all" issue.

    For some people, an ISP is a TCP/IP connection. Beyond that maybe they give you an email address, usenet, and some web space, but primarily its a TCP/IP connection. For those of us who view it that way, we don't want any software, we don't need any tech support, we only want to bother you when our 1's and 0's are getting to our home network.

    For other people, an ISP is that "magical gateway to the Internet". These people have just bought their first PC (or been given one) and are still mastering the concepts of mice and keyboards. There is no web browser to this person there is only Internet Explorer. Mentioning SMTP will send them into a panic. These people need a whole lot of hand holding.

    The ironic thing? Both of these extremes of people are paying the exact same amount per month. (Granted the first group may be using more bandwidth, but relatively speaking bandwidth is cheap compared to those warm bodies manning the phones.)

    So, I think the real issue would be to tailor the software to the user class and tailor the price as well. (Maybe this is why AOL was able to charge a premium.) I wonder what would happen if we tried to introduce a license for driving the ol' "Information Super Highway"?

  • Security (Score:3, Insightful)

    by ruvreve ( 216004 ) on Friday March 29, 2002 @06:11PM (#3250020) Journal
    With all the recent and I guess continued issues with security do you really want to install a program that allows somebody from you ISP to connect to your computer remotely? Even if the intentions are good it only takes 1 rogue tech support person to own your entire client list.
  • Well, the first thing I'd say is 'Don't make is compulary'.

    My ISP (BT Internet) offers a program for download called 'BT Internet Dialer'. I don't use it because I can use a normal Dial-up networking connection. The dialer wouldn't offer any benefit, but it likely would pull some crap like opening a browser window for the ISP's portal when I dial up with it.

    As a guide, don't make it:
    • Compulsary - power users will be annoyed if thier auto-redialing downloading programs stop working, or if they have to use Windows.
    • Large - if it's big, it will take time to download, and to update (when that is demanded). This just annoys people.
    • Slow to load - If to dial up you have to run a program that takes a long time to load, it will annoy people.
    • Incompatible - Don't only publist a Windows version, if it is compulsary. Make sure you have Mac support too.
    • Ugly - Don't make it a big, red and yellow comic-book-like screen because that's the ISP's colours.
    • Annoying - If you are instructed to make the program automatically open a web browser to a certain page, or anything like that, put an option in to turn the feature off.

    And that's all I can think of, I'm afraid.

    Michael
  • Ideally you'd have some sort of application that a user could launch to show ip address, run a traceroute, ping, and run a system configuration reporter. This should be a program that they can run from the disk without an install procedure.

    "OK, Click on Start then Run. Now type win i - p - c - f as in Frank - g."
    "Is that all one word."
    "Yes. Are you done?"
    "Yes."
    "OK, what does it say."
    "Um, Command not found. Is this why Norton AV is beeping?"

    Once you know their getting an IPaddr half the battle's over. Remote control would be useful to help fix someone's email settings, but a good FAQ would be better. Some of the ISP setup FAQs are hideous or just plain wrong. If they'd spend a few hours cleaning them up it would probably cut down considerably on their tech support calls.

    I wouldn't recommend any remote control software though, since it would be way too easy for the session passwords to leak out.
    A Linux user session is more like:
    "Dude, http to g33kp0rn.net is timing out."
    "What you say? Check ECN. RTFW for God's sake."
    "ECN? Shit. Sorry."

  • RFCs (Score:5, Interesting)

    by revscat ( 35618 ) on Friday March 29, 2002 @06:14PM (#3250038) Journal

    I've gotten CDs from various ISPs over the years. The only one I've ever kept (or even used) was one that had every single RFC ever written burned onto it. Massively helpful, instructive, and educational from a historical standpoint.

  • When I was working residence network support at Sheridan College, I put together a CD that was extremly useful in installing/supporting network adaptors.

    It contained: 3COM 3c905b-tx drivers (our PCI nic), ne2000 drivers, some generic isa drivers, windows 95 and 98 versions of poledit, regedit, the windows 98 ptp and w2k ptp fixes (we were using plain-text auth at the time. not necessary but it gave 'em access to their network drives), and the cab files from windows 95, osr2.5, 98, and 98se (great for when windows asks you to insert the 9x cd during the install, I don't have to switch anything).

    It also had a few diagnostic tools and some minor documentation I wrote on how to install a nic (such as weird bios configs, SBLive issues, etc). While this cd was never distributed, it was an excellent tool in getting people online.

    That is what ISP's should give - a tool that helps the user get online. I hate custom browser and propritary dialers because they can be a pain in the arse to get working properly if your system is even slightly out of "spec".

    Keep It Simple.

  • Do one thing... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Neil Blender ( 555885 )
    and do it right. Personally, I don't think ISPs should be in the business of hand holding beyond having a live connection. I'd rather see them spend their time and resources on the connection.
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • Man I so agree with this. The last damn thing I want on a support page is "here's how to set up the mail or news client you DON'T use". The information that I want most of all on the page is just the raw data just like you suggest. I want the address of the mail server, the handshake protocol the dial-up uses, whether or not I need to use SPA when checking my e-mail.

      Case in point, Earthlink isn't being very friendly with Evolution, it refuses to authenticate when I try to send e-mail. Outlook works fine however. Earthlink has pelnty of information on configuring Outlook but nothing at all on Evolution. I don't expect support of Linux but what would be really helpful is just the raw information I need to configure any mail client to use their SMTP servers. I mod you up with the moderation points of my mind.
  • Well, by rights, the ideal ISP CD would contain:

    1) Automatic configeration for Windows (9x, ME, NT, 2000, and XP) and Mac.

    2) Instructions for manual configeration of Mac, Windows and Linux.

    3) the 2 most common/popular browsers, email clients and newsreader clients for Mac, Windows and Linux

    That's also what should be officially supported by the ISP.

    However some other things that one should consider adding:

    Instant Messagers - ICQ, AIM, etc.
    FTP Program
    File Compression software
    Antivirus software

    other things that could be thrown in
    IRC software
    MP3 playback software
    Firewall

    There's so much that could be given out, but, the support should be focused on the browser, email and newsgroups... then a person can search out more specialised help for their software/hardware problems
  • I hate the way the public thinks the ISP is supposed to support the client. I mean, what the client does with the internet is their own fault. Why should an ISP have to waste money on support people, who are onyl the more cynical, BOFH types on planet Earth. As far as the ISP's should be conserned is with the peer-to-peer connection of the ISP to the user premisise. The last thing an ISP should mess with is the affairs what happens inside the clients premisis.

    A notable exception is AOL, who think that the ISP and the client should co-mingle... This is more akin to cable brodcasting service that provides access to the cable tv network, and the programming.
    • In other words, there's exactly two programs the ISP should support; ping and traceroute.

    • Re:IP provider, nothing more, nothing less (Score:4, Informative)

      by Rubbersoul ( 199583 ) on Friday March 29, 2002 @07:22PM (#3250343)
      Ok let me take on this remark because I think you are missing a few big points.

      1) As other posters have pointed out most slashdot readers are much better at computers then normal users. For us offering no or little support is less of an issue (except when the network is down, even the most technical still love to bitch when something is down ...).

      2) Most any company that sets their mind to it can offer dial up, or other Internet services. It is not all that hard really as long as you have a few tech people that have a clue. What sets apart a good ISP (the S is for Service) for the rest is good tech support. When a customer calls and says I can not get my email or heaven for bid ebay is not working the tech on the phone needs to know how to 'make ebay work again'. Also in many cases those same support people that are making ebay work again are also the ones that are working with vendors (LEC's, hardware, data, etc) so one way or another they are needed in the organization anyway.

      Those are only a few points, but I think you get the picture. O yeah I happen to work at an ISP so I do have a bit of real world exprieane on this one ;)
      • Let me reply to this, and all others who have posted replies. Firstly, the consumer gets what they pay for. Namely, they are paying for an ip address and the service of packet forwarding from the ISP. In addition, an ISP typically also offers other services such as email, ftp, and httpd access. Here is where I'd like to make a few points in the converse. For example, since the consumer is paying for an ip address, and packet forwarding, then why is it that many ISP's tend to NOT ALLOW the usage of arbitrary protocols? I'm speaking of IPSEC, or anything that can be perceived as the buzz word VPN.

        So now I digress, the matter of a service oriented society. I disagree about the 2nd point categorically. When I worked for Microsoft supporting Windows95, 98... I knew that that Microsoft was selling my service. So it is true that we are a service level society. However, I can also say that support persons need to have cleanly defined support boundaries. There is a line that must not be crossed in regards to what is supported, and what isn't. Does an ISP support eBay, they most certainly do not! Does an ISP take ownership of connectivity issues, they always do. If a support tech were to cross the support boundaries, they are only asking for trouble and in effect on their own.

        Tech support people need not teach the consumer how to use the product they have purchased. The consumer can fall on their own sword, and light their own path. I'm speaking of how to operate VNC remote control software, or the irssi IRC client. This is not the same as supporting the applications provided by the ISP such as how to configure a standard Netscape email client. The IP settings are a given, and the core business of an ISP.

        Back when I, and two other persons, where responsible for supporting the school dial-up service.... One of the nice things we did for the idiot students was to provide a convenient little CD rom that we had the school press at the cd plant. We would put all kinds of nice things in the kit: setup scripts, the latest Netscape, wsftp, and some docs (that nobody would read). All that good stuff packed into a handy CD that was available all over campus. The point I'm trying to make is that we would take advantage of the discs freeware, we didn't support them. We would only support the user (students, teachers) in establishing the serrial connection, ppp initilization, and access to the local campus network. Support of the campus network included making sure they could access accedmic resources. When you got 20 calls on hold, and two people answering phones... it just doens't seem that important to teach the user how to operate a chat client.

        Another point I would like to make is about support persons. The world simply doesn't understand support people. Having been one, and escaping the industry I can say with authority that constant exposure to floundering users eventually leads to what is known as "bastardism". Any seasons Admin will attest to what I'm talking about. They know what support boundaries are, and what customer services is all about. Why would a pay to talk to a BOFH, and a meager minor league ISP tech at that. I'd rather be spared the cost of paying for that persons job, and get cheaper Ip address's. Enough said.

  • WTF? (Score:2)

    by ksw2 ( 520093 )
    The ISP's software package CD-ROM usually goes directly into the trash soon after I receive it. If I'm not mistaken, most of the Slashdot crowd probably does the same thing. Why would I want to use the ISP's decorative version of IE? I use Linux anyway, so I guess it's a moot point. Lame story, Slashdot.

    • The rest of the world is a lot bigger than you are (Score:4, Insightful)

      by NanoGator ( 522640 ) on Friday March 29, 2002 @07:09PM (#3250293) Homepage Journal
      This question isn't being posed to internet seasoned people. It's ludicrous to think that they were asking what to send to a group of people who work on the net for a living. What they were really asking was 'what can we do to help get non-initiated ppl to the net?'

      I end up playing technical support for my family. I don't like it. I don't like explaining what TCP/IP is. I don't like having to set up Internet Explorer to look on the LAN for the net connection instead of trying to dial up. And I really don't like the terminology that Windows uses to get you running. It's silly really.

      You know what the ISP should provide? It should provide the information to the computer on how it should be set up. If the CD basically told the computer 'Go to DHCP, set your programs to look on the lan for the internet connection, and then go!' that'd be all most people really cared about.

      When @Home went down, AT&T BI set up their DNS so that no matter what address you went to, you ended up at a web page that says "Download and run this file." When you did that, it set up my computer for what the new network was. That was so cool. I didn't have to plug any new data in. That's what the CD should do.

  • Keep it minimal (Score:2, Interesting)

    by 1g$man ( 221286 )
    The less platforms you support, the lower your costs will be. When we opened up 4 years ago, we quickly found out that time for customer support was way beyond what we imagined.

    So, in order to keep our rates low ($12.95/mo, less annually), we send a disc that automatically configures Win9x/Win2k/WinXP dial-up networking. It also reccomends installation of IE6 (included on disc). We only offer *software* tech support to customers running on that platform.

    Of course, we still give out all information and do the best we can to get other systems up and running. Generally, if you include something on a CD, the customer expects support--that's why you should keep it minimal.

    As far as VNC software goes, it's not worth the effort or security risk).
  • You're asking a bunch of people who can fix their computers while stoned, drunk, dieing, with only one working finger while hanging on the side of a burning bus flying down the highway at 100 mph in a snow storm while being shot at. Many of the responses will not help you when Grandma calls wondering why she can't see the pictures of her grandkids she just get in her e-mail.

    Unless, of course, you only want geeks as customers.

  • Distribute no software. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by evilpaul13 ( 181626 ) on Friday March 29, 2002 @06:28PM (#3250099)
    ISPs should be providing infrastructure. Leave the software to the users. Save money on providing and supporting software and spend it on paying those support people enough to actually know what they are doing when customers call because something isn't working.

    If you really need to distribute software, then share those if/else click through support files that the tech support people are [poorly] using. Of course, I may just be bitter having used AOL's and Comcast's "support" services.

  • Why Bundle at all? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by netwraith ( 109919 )
    What's wrong with having a simple setup program in VB that will configure a dialer for them, setup mailboxes in Outlook, OE, Netscape, and Eudora, and set a bookmark in their browsers for your company's home page? If you've got a half intelligent user you can walk them thru the settings for DNS or WINS changes. There's really no need to bundle VNC unless you're a really big ISP that has alot of users out of your physical area or you service only mentally challenged people.

  • NOT Outlook! (Score:2, Informative)

    by TydalForce ( 569880 )
    I work tech support for a large University who will remain nameless so they don't get angry at me. We get calls all the time from people trying to use email, and more importantly virus problems. Let me just make it clear. Outlook has some serious security vulnerabilities. With the Klez virus running around right now, we're all going a little nuts... and like every other headline-making-virus in the past 4 years, it's exploiting vulnerabilities in MS Outlook and Outlook Express. The one piece of advice I can give is DO NOT EVER reccomend that someone use Outlook! We have some kind of site license to give out an ad-free version of Eudora, but I also find that Netscape's Messenger works just fine. There are a billion other free email programs out there that I don't have experience with. Outlook is the ONLY one with these vulnerabilities! Some people may be smart enough to not click on an unknown attachment, but with some viruses and Outlook, you don't even have to click on it. From a support perspective, taking away the security issues, I've found that it's just easier to walk people through the settings on Netscape and Eudora (keep in mind this is over the phone) than it is on Outlook.
    • As much as I have to should "AMEN, Brother!" to what you've just said; I have two points:

      1 - In the University Setting, things are ran a little differently than what they are everywhere else. You have a 8 month year, then 4 months to get everything back working again, upgrading equipment, etc when the students aren't around. Most businesses aren't really set up like that...there's not a predictable 4-month window when you can convert everything to IP telephony, or do a big router uprgade, because the business (at large) is at a limited or diminished capacity.

      2 - Virus Scanning should very much be a part of a campus enviornment both SERVER SIDE and CLIENT SIDE. We have a site license to Norton Anti Virus Corporate, and we use AntiGen (for Exchange) and qmail-scanner (for everyone else). Between the two, we haven't had a large virus break in a long time.

      My 2 cents.
      Moderators: Yes, I know this is a little bit OffTopic, but I needed to get my point across.

  • As already discussed to death, everyone already has everything that they need to connect and use the net.

    So the ISP CD should be have content, not applications.

    Help your customers. Fill it with porn.

  • Software? Support? Just *Internet Service* (Score:3, Interesting)

    by AJWM ( 19027 ) on Friday March 29, 2002 @07:12PM (#3250303) Homepage
    I just want my ISP to provide a (reliable, fast) connection to the internet. End of story.

    Fortunately that's what my ISP provides. (Oh, yeah, they offer an email account, but I prefer to run my own domain.)

    Any software or service an ISP offers beyond that is costing somebody money. Guess who.
  • In my opinion ISPs should only cache email and perhaps home web pages and should not be in the software business at all. They should support open standards and not insist on their own or any other package at the client end as long as it interacts with those standards.
  • As I work ISP tech support, I have to say that I agree with most ISPs only providing one general software package and supporting just what's included in it (whether it includes IE, Netscape, and/or any custom software).

    The simple fact is that, as others have illustrated, the majority of ISP users are "casual" users - they literally panic at the thought of having to setup anything manually (even something so relatively simple as adding a mail account in Outlook Express). Most of these users won't even contemplate going out to download something that wasn't included in the default installation... I can't tell you how many times I've had a technical support chat where the browser showed up as "IE 5.0" even though it's now a few years old!

    The people who really are technically skilled just don't need the support to begin with. They know how to get Netscape, Opera, Eudora, and so on - and probably won't even need to check a website for instructions to set it up. As such, it's really just better to support what comes with the ISP (or the OS); give the support to the people who really need it!

    I would just note, of course, that this doesn't mean that I'm endorsing Microsoft's old "IE or the highway" strategy with Windows - I just think that it would be quite a burden to expect an ISP to support every modern browser/e-mail app that happens to be available for download. If an ISP includes more than one company's program (or one besides IE), all the more power to them.
  • There's a killer robot clone on the loose and he looks like Queen Elizabeth. BEWARE!!!
    • Strong password generator
    • A certificate to go with that email address

    Strong Passwords
    If people had a program to generate strong passwords, then there would befewer system and accounts for black hats to use to leapfrog across the net tohide their tracks. I'm working on a java applet that uses a strong PRNG seeded with user mouse movements and input from SecueRandom to generate 5 prnouncable passwords and 5 phrases made of real words. Something like this bundled with AOL's account setup program would do great things for teir security, and by extension, make the net a better place for everyone.

    Public Key Infrastructure
    ISPs should get Verisign or Thawte, or another big name certificate and use that to sign certificates for their customers. Give them a certificate with thier email address. In a couple of years the open mail relay spam problem will fix itself as everone will automatically throw away unsigned email and ISPs will revoke certs of spammers, or there will be public databases of spammer certs.

    PKI doesn't cost companies very much, only a little for the certificate and a little bit of education. Many email client already have crypto plugins.

    Sure, you'll still have problems, mostly from ISPs doing poor identity checking and users using bad passwords.

  • They should supply an uninstaller. @home didn't.

  • MStar Software Nightmare (Score:3, Interesting)

    by omnirealm ( 244599 ) on Saturday March 30, 2002 @01:41AM (#3252027) Homepage

    I moved into a new apartment near the end of 2000. Broadband was not (affordably) available in my neighborhood, and so I opted for a dial-in through a company named MStar [mstar.net]. Boy was that a mistake.

    I was running Linux on my primary machine, but they sent me Windows-only sign-up software on a CD-ROM. So I fired up my old system from when I was a freshman, which still had Windows '95 on it, and signed up. Their software loaded onto my system, took the liberty of placing a custom "quick-launch" bar onto my desktop, and then proceeded to log me in and activate my account.

    The browser on the quick-launch bar was IE, but I prefered Netscape. However, when I tried to launch Netscape, the window would blip open for a split second and then close. Confused, I closed the quick-launch program (which disconnected me from the network) and tried again; this time it worked. MStar's trojan sofware was literally blocking me from running Netscape.

    Their software, which connecting, would ask for a username and password, which is just a front for a "real" username and password that were secretly passed to the server when initiating the PPP connection. I used some software to capture my real username and password, and then I set up a standard dial-up account. When I would try to access the net on my Linux box, the Windows box would be able to auto-dial the connection. That worked nicely for a while.

    Until a month later when banner ads from MStar started appearing at the bottom of every page that I loaded. Their servers were modifying every web page that I retrieved by placing an image and a link to MStar-related sites! There was a "disable banner for 5 minutes" link in the banner, which simply called a Perl script with a parameter of 5.

    Oh, and did I mention that MStar performs ISP-side web censorship? They blocked Adobe's web site once. I had to set up a proxy server on another network to get around that little issue.

    With the help of a filtering proxy and a call to that script with a parameter of "9999999" in my browser's home page setting, I was finally able to get clean access to the net. A few months later, I moved and had broadband access. But I will never consider going with MStar again.

    The next time I search for an ISP, I will only subscribe to a service that interferes the least with my connection to the Internet.

  • With Windows XP, everything you need comes from Microsoft, including a PPPoE client. There's no more need for ISP software.

    Almost everything ISPs want you to install sucks, anyway.

    Does anyone know how to uninstall BroadJump? [broadjump.com] safely? It's running something in the background and messing up a friend's machine. BroadJump refuses tech support requests.

  • This is a tough question. I would like to see ISPs support my OS which is FreeBSD. In fact, my ISP even uses FreeBSD. But are they going to support Mozilla, Galeon or Konqueror? KMail or pine? They can't support them all. It irks me to no end when they choose to only support the top 95% of systems and browsers, but I can't blame them. That means Windows, Mac, IExplorer and Netscape. Sigh.

    It's not that their helpdesk guys are stupid. It's that the customers are ignorant. Imagine the following scenario:

    "I can't connect."
    "What OS are you using?"
    "Linux 8.1"
    [sigh] "Which Linux distribution is that?"
    "Huh? It's Linux. I just bought it at a yardsale."
    [assumes Redhat] "Okay, are you using KDE or Gnome?"
    "I just done told ya I'm using Linux!"
    "Yes sir, I know that."
    "You guys said you support Linux, so support it!"
    "What's on your screen right now?"
    "It says 'please insert CD number two to continue installation."
    ...

    But there is a solution. For some strange reason ISPs are marketing two services packaged as one product. Connectivity and support. I don't see why they can't split up the package if necessary. Let's say the price of the normal service is $50. For a Windows user that includes connectivity and support of Explorer, Netscape and Outlook. But if you're using Linux, BSD, BeOS, etc., they can't effectively support you. So you don't pay for support. Your price just dropped to $40. I can live with that.

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