From Coder to Game Designer? 42
"I am a coder by trade, so I would like to try and get a job as a game designer. What kind of experience (besides other game company experience) grabs attention of gaming companies? Project Management experience? Software Architecture experience? Create a design document (high and low level) for a game?
Most people say 'You need a demo or create a game for gaming companies to consider you', but the time it takes to make something like that isn't available to all; yes, I understand that most gaming companies require long shifts, which I am fully capable of doing, but that isn't the same as having the extra time to design and code a game. Is there anything besides a lot of luck that will help get a job in the industry as a designer? As a side question: Do designers make enough to support a family well, or is the pay pretty low?"
Re:"coder" (Score:2, Funny)
Open Source Games first (Score:1)
Without having to have many-many spare hours you can do something demonstratable and perhaps discover if game-coding really is for you after all.
Sam
Well, here's a thought (Score:4, Insightful)
You don't have time to design and create a full-blown massively multiplayer game, fine, I understand, I barely have free time. Have you at least taken the time to build your gaming related coding skills?
How familiar are you with the various 3D interfaces, have you built small demo apps to teach yourself anything? How is your knowledge of physics and calculus, been there done that, have a textbook on the shelf or in a box somewhere? Or have you been touching up the old math skills lately?
See where I'm heading, by taking an active interest, learning the basics, understanding what's involved, you are making yourself more attractive as a prospect. If I was looking for folks, your experience would weigh in well, but how much am I going to have to teach you from scratch. Compared to someone who at least has done some short demos, or has built their own games, you're looking like a lot of extra work.
You mention design as well. Have you ever sat down and roughed out a complete plan for a game? Planned out the artwork, the psuedo-ai, the plot, the music.
Here's my 0.02USD. Build a game from scratch (I know what you said, hear me out). It doesn't have to be Quake IV, build a toddler game. Something that talks and puts up pretty pictures when a kid hits a letter on the keyboard.Pretty basic sounding, but it's complex enough to give you some time with developing the app (make it cross platform to really impress) designing the app, test usability on peoples children, go all out.
You may find that you absolutely despise game development. I know I did. I think a lot of people have a pipe dream about how cool it would be doing game development, and the reality check is might harsh.
just repeating what I've heard (Score:2)
As I said in the subject, this is just what I've heard. If this is true, then a game company is going to be interested in one thing--"What can you do?", and they will want to see proof of that with the corresponding "What have you done?".
Therefore, I think your best bet is to gain some marketable experience. One person has already suggested working on an open source game. Sounds like as good an idea as any. But, although you may have to do whatever is sitting there to be done if you join an established product, I think you would fairly quickly need to move in the direction of doing something that you can easily demonstrate as something that _you_ did.
You say you are interested in design. Maybe you could put together a lightweight demo that shows that you understand gameplay/ai/whatever you are trying to get a job doing?
If I were doing this, I would try to get in touch with someone in the industry and ask them what you need to be able to do, technically, to be able to get the job you want. Then do it.
Like another poster said, you might find out that you really don't like the work. That is valuable information, too.
Hope this helps. (Score:1, Informative)
Getting A Job In The Game Development Industry [ravensoft.com]
How To Get A Job In The Gaming Biz [cliffyb.com]
So You Want to be a Game Designer? [cgonline.com]
You Can Get There From Here [cgonline.com]
(At least two of these articles have sections pertaining to programmers.)
A common thread throughout the articles seems to be that you should know someone who already works in the gaming biz.
If you have been succesful in finding a job, read this:
You've Been Given a Job Offer! (Let's Try to Avoid Getting Screwed) [cliffyb.com]
plus a quote:
design your own game and sell it to a game maker? (Score:3, Interesting)
If it's the design that you are trying to emphasize, try doing it in a RAD environment, like REALbasic (I know, it has the word "basic" in it, but it's really quite good. At least the Mac version is.)
(Wow, I'm really asking for it--praise for a Basic and non-disparaging comment about a Mac in the same breath.)
Re:design your own game and sell it to a game make (Score:2)
Knowledge gets you in the door. (Score:1)
But anyway... you want to design games? What's that got to do with coding? If you want to work for a gaming company, you need to know one of the following:
When you are an expert at at least 2 of them, you can start thinking about designing a computer game.
Look for a small company (Score:2, Interesting)
I work for a company doing mobile games, and while I can't say we have the niftiest of games in the world, we're doing well.
The cool part about smaller companies is that we have a collective pool of people working on game designs. Basically, anybody can submit a cool idea, and we have a group that consists of graphics artists, coders, and product managers like myself who work out game concepts. We don't have any real restrictions as to who can attend those meetings.
If you have Java skills and feel comfortable with J2ME, I'd definitely look at the mobile gaming side, as people are looking for coders and there is no hard-set design style for that area yet, as there is in, say, the console market.
Check the industry mags (Score:2)
I guess another source of good information is the Gamasutra [gamasutra.com] website.
I have friends who have gone on to work for games companies and they are encouraged to tell the company about other good people... So just knowing someone who can certify your qualifications is one of the best ways to go.
programmer - games - designer (Score:1)
these days, a coder/designer is extremely rare. you will find them at small independent shareware type devs, but not at larger developers.
a designer HAS to understand not only the basics of gameplay, but also design documents, write the game manual, level design, and tie in art/technology to make something fun. it does help (wrt being adept at using a level designer), but is not a main issue. designers are more often from other more creative industries, like writers. so in a way, your technical background could hurt your chances.
payscale wise, you won't be able to make the transition to a single game designers wage with a family. to get positioned into a game designer, MAYBE you can squeeze in as a level designer implementing written specifications. but that will mean drastic changes in lifestyle.
programmers who are in the game industry and making decent pay (almost never necessarily on par with the tech average) usually start off being paid beans in QA/play testing and then work their way up.
for a better sense of pay, check out Game Developer Salary Survey [gamasutra.com]. mind that the majority of developers are in CA, with higher cost of living, so don't think "WOW, programmers average $65k a year"
Do you really want to make games? (Score:3, Insightful)
If you can't find the time to make at least a simple game, you are never going to be able to deal with working for a game company (I know I couldn't, which is why I left), many of which will require you to pull 14-16 hour days during crunch mode, which often lasts several months, and happens several times a year (e3 demos, releasing a game, producing demos to get project funding, etc).
Having said that, I know at least one programmer who came on right out of college and worked his way into a design position pretty fast. All he did was work hard, and contribute a lot to the game design process while he was working as a programmer. It quickly became obvious he was good at design, so he was put in a design role. Getting into a game company as a programmer would be a good start, and if you really are talented as a designer (just wanting to design games doesn't mean you *can* design fun games) and express your desire to management, you probably will get there pretty fast.
Personally, I'd rather code, and work an 8 hour day.
Know someone (Score:1)
Say what? (Score:1)
If by "coders" you mean programmers, I don't know where you would get that idea. Maybe amongst your peers. While writing games does indeed require great skills in a lot of areas, many programmers tend to aspire to slightly more lofty goals for their creations than to merely capture the attention of distracted teenagers for brief periods of time.
Re:Say what? (Score:2)
>> As most coders, I'd eventually like to crack into the gaming industry.
> If by "coders" you mean programmers, I don't know where you would get that idea. Maybe amongst your peers. While writing games does indeed require great skills in a lot of areas, many programmers tend to aspire to slightly more lofty goals for their creations than to merely capture the attention of distracted teenagers for brief periods of time.
What an inane comment! I must say that I, like the original poster, want to code games. I know that pretty much every other programmer I know also wants this.
Games are, I'd say, propably one of the most important things you can do with a computer. It's quite simple really - what is life, if not for having fun? If you can come up with new things with which to entertain people, you have done a lot!
"merely capture the attention of distracted teenagers" is just the start. Fully entertaining a large group of people, ranging from very young to very old (I know at least one 56 year old computer game player, which indeed does not count as very old but you get the idea) is definately a worthwhile cause. Do you also scoff at litterature, movies, theatre, painting, sculptures and everything else that is only there to provide entertainment?
Re:Say what? (Score:2)
> that is only there to provide entertainment?
Less so than you, apparently. The number of errors in your post alone indicates a very high level of scoffing. You also seem to mistake the need and desire of an artist for self-expression for a need to entertain. Bach and Van Gogh might disagree with you on that one. Then again, the day you cut off your ear and shoot yourself in the side in order to better entertain your audience, I'll graciously defer to you.
Re:Say what? (Score:1)
Many of us are young males who were introduced to computing via games. At university, anyone who was really into programming was writing a little game... I think it's pretty natural.
.
Re:Say what? (Score:1)
I wrote my first stupid little game in my CS class in HS. It was a Tron variant (light cycles, remember?) where you tried to make the other person crash into a wall. Lotsa fun, and someone suggested adding network support which got me thinking about that.
I'll go out on a limb and say that most people want to entertain, either themselves or others. People often want to go into acting or art because of the entertainment value. It's no surprise, then, that computer people would want to design computer entertainment, which is what games are.
--trb
You answered your own question! (Score:2)
FIND the time. Got a laptop? Take the train in the morning. Hack code. Sunday mornings get up at 6am, 3 hours before the wife, and go sit in the park and code. Stay up 2 hours after her. Code code code. Sitting in a boring meeting? Sketch. Need to use the men's room? Take a copy of Game Developer's Magazine.
Get it? No magic bullets here (maybe there'll be some in your game, though) or in any industry switch that needs such specific experience.
And for the love of god don't try to jumpstart it by reading any books with "Extreme", "Black Art", or "21 Days" in the title. They take away from your coding time.
I'm bored. Here's some obvious general advice. (Score:2)
So you want to be a:
This assumes you have the requisite intelligence and aptitude for the position. It's possible you don't, and that always sucks. Generally speaking, any position requires a background. I know one guy who graduated the year before me in EE went to work for Electronic Arts (Hi Jess, if you're reading this). A background in physics and calculus was a definate asset. If you don't have this background, you'll have to get it. Start reading.
Nobody will listen to you right off though, even if you have a degree. So save up some money to live off of, move back home, live in a slum, and sacrifice six months or a year of your life becoming a master game programmer. Write code to demonstrate physical principles. Make some AI demos. Write some catchy action games (no, some stupid thing won't cut it anymore). Get on the mailing lists. Compete in competitions. Get networking, the kind without cables. No, this isn't easy. Yes, you have to live poor. Yes, it will be worth it. In short, go learn, and make time to get the skills you need.
This is all extremely obvious, but if you aren't willing to put the time into it, it's unlikely you'll be able to handle the pressures of game development in the real world, because it's not all roses. Of course, doing that if you have other obligations like a wife or kids is damn near impossible, but that's a job hazard, since 14+ hour days with unpaid overtime are the norm due to horrible management and design practices in the software world. That's another rant, though.
Have fun :).
Make a MUD (Score:3, Interesting)
To start the process, we're designing a MUD based on Operation Overkill (BBS door game from days long gone). I know, no graphics, but even if I went into game programming as a career I would want to stay away from the graphics part of it and concentrate on the algorithms, math and gameplay. MUDs aren't terribly complex, so we're designing the MUDlib from scratch (read: every line of code is ours). My hope is to be able to gain a better understanding of game design, mostly the AI and shared world time between entities. I figure, what's a game like Diablo except a MUD that has a really snazzy frontend?
My hope (and I could be completely wrong, someone please tell me) is that if I can intelligently speak about AI, sketch out sample data objects that would be used, give a flow diagram for a game and even write some quick code, and point to an operational (if not tremendously popular) game that I've designed, I should be able to get my foot in the door. After this initial MUD release, we were planning on incorporating one of our other friends who is currently a frontend designer for 989 (did they get bought out?), who does Playstation 1/2 games. Taking some of the backend, revamping it and throwing a graphical interface on it will come with his help.
Honestly, one of the best ideas I had to learn game development was to take an existing game and try to design/redesign it yourself. Empire (anyone remember it?) was a great game that you could easily redo, including graphics. Pick an old RPG (Ultima?) and redo it with adjusted plots or AI. Something to get you learning to think like a game designer, instead of a data mover.
--trb
Re:Make a MUD (Score:1)
It was the first game that I really got "addicted to." (even before civ 1) As such, I know a buddy of mine who actually started a revamp of the game a couple years ago, he got the engine built I think and then the project died. I'll see if he has the source for his stuff posted anywhere online and post here if I find it.
How to become a top notch game designer (Score:3, Interesting)
With the traditional retail business model, a game makes a lot of money if it sells a lot of copies. Holding production costs down helps, but nothing boosts the bottom line like a bestseller. So as a game designer your next question needs to be, "How can I make a game that sells well?"
Glad you asked. First of all, you need to do some market research. What type of games are people buying? What are the trends in electronic entertainment? Is there a genre that is hot? Are some genres pretty much dead, like side scrolling platform games? You'll need to get a feel for the market as a whole. Fortunately, you usually have some help.
In fact, a lot of times this step will happen before you ever get involved. When the executive producers (the guys with the money) tell you about your next project, they might phrase it something like this: "Our next game MUST be an isomorphic 3D massively multiplayer real time fantasy roleplaying driving game in an immersive universe with both a movie AND a soft drink tie in." When you hear that, you know they've been banging the chick in marketing. Refuse to listen at your own peril.
Where are we? Oh, still trying to make our game sell. Did you catch the movie tie in above? That helps. So does making a sequel to a smash hit. Sports games do well too, but the genre gets pretty crowded. Familiar characters, like Mario or Sonic, also work well. When people are standing in the rack of games at the local CompUSA, they are looking for something familiar. It is all about branding.
With branding you have two options: license one or roll your own. Lets say that you are making a board game based on arranging rows and columns of letters to make words. Will your game sell better under the Scrabble brand name, or as 'Genericabble, the word game made by that guy who used to be a coder'. Scrabble will crush your sorry ass. Rolling your own isn't really an option in certain niches.
Here is another example: You have the choice between two basketball games. One is officially licensed by the NBA. You have Shaq and Kobe playing on the Lakers. The other isn't licensed at all, but it has Shack and K. Brian playing on the Lackers. Which one do you percieve to be higher quality? Which one would you be proud to play with your friends? Which one would you buy? Chances are that you'd only buy PoserNBA 2002 if it cost MUCH LESS than RealNBA 2002.
On the other hand, if you have a new spin on a market proven idea, you can try establishing it as its own brand. Good luck. It will take more work and more money (advertising, bought game reviews, free demos) than you realize. Try to score with the girl in marketing. It will make the long nights that you spend on that side of the building worthwhile.
We're in eight paragraphs deep, and we still haven't covered the number one reason most people want to be game designers:
"I've got this great idea for a video game and I think it will be a lot of fun!"
Take a number and have a seat on the bench over there. Yes, next to the homless guy. Yes, his number is 22 lower than yours. Yes, he's got seven more years of programming experience. Yes, he also has a Phd in physics. No, he's not here for the game designer job. He wants an entry level position in QA/testing.
So how do you get to skip the corporate ladder and go straight in as a game designer? Make a game to get your foot in the door. I know you don't have the time. I know you have a family. Big dreams require some sacrifice.
First create a demo.
Your demo needs to demonstrate the following:
* You understand the market.
* You can work with a team of underpaid people and a deadline, and still deliver a product.
* You can take a concept and mangle it to make it sell better.
* You can actually deliver a product. Not just the code, but the branding, the box, the website, the manual, advertisements, everything.
* You can do all of the above and still make a fun game.
Why did I wait until way the hell down here to mention making a fun game? Because it is the most imporant part (unless you already have Star Wars, Duke Nukem, or Harry Potter lined up). Your game needs to be fun for it to sell well. The challenge is that you must do it within the context of ALL of that marketing BS above.
Designing a game is much more than just coding. I emphasized some of the marketing skills that you need to prove a point. To be truly successful in an interdiciplinary field like game design you need to be well rounded. Knowing how to manage and motivate people helps a lot. You need to be a project manager, able to control the creation of software. Finally, you need to know how to build something fun. That is the most elusive part of all. I believe it is a true talent, and if you have it, then you only need to broaden your skillset beyond just coding. Prove that you can make fun, and prove that you can manage a project designed for the mass market, and you will be well on your way.
(Don't) start out doing support and tools (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm sure you can poke around and find out where I'm coming from, but where you're lucky enough to have actual support for the technologies you use in your games, the companies doing the support have this giant, perpetually unfulfilled need for capable, interested coders doing documentation and tools.
I say perpetually unfulfilled because most people who come into these positions aspire to be game programmers, and eventually game designers, and so they come in to learn the ropes, punch out a few really high-quality, in-depth docs to get themselves noticed, and then get poached by game companies to do in-house tech. And sure, they contribute back to the support team for a little while, but after they feel they've repaid their debt, they're gone. They start out doing in-house tools and cleanup/robustness stuff, and maybe they contribute a neat gameplay feature or effect here and there, and by the time the next project comes around, they're doing much more programming because they end up knowing the tech better than anyone else. It's not far from lead programmer to lead designer in some circles.
But as other people have posted, game programming is probably not where you want to be. Gaming is the Hollywood of this industry, which means a few people are rich and famous, and (in most places) everyone else gets paid 1/4 to 1/3 of the normal salary everywhere else, and is fully expected to work 16 and 18 hour days until crunch time, when you should start sleeping at the office. You're perpetually indebted to your publisher, you have nothing but unrealistic deadlines and overwhelming pressure to perform, and someone coming from a cushy IT jockey job would probably realize they don't have to put up with that kind of shit.
And they don't.
If you want to get into the game industry because you want your work to be fun, because you're winding down your wage slave responsibilities, but don't want to stop working, because you want to do cool shit again, get into support and tools.
It's the best of both worlds. Every game company using the tech you're supporting will see your work, read your documentation like the Bible, and ask you questions as if you were their priest. Every new tool and feature you make gets praised to the heavens. You get to write sample code -- mini game demos -- to show off new features and functionality, providing you with 100% of the fun with 0% of the pressure or workload. There's always something new to work on, and you never have to dote on the old stuff (except to keep it updated with new versions of the technology).
A lot of you might be saying that you still have to write documentation, and documentation sucks. Well, I agree. That's the drawback, but that's also what you're getting paid for. You get to screw around with expensive technology, work on video games all day, and all you have to do is write down how you did it when you're done. That's it. Small price in my book.
So if that sounds interesting to you, ask around, see what companies support their tech, and see what kind of turnover they have. If you've got a solid C/C++ background, have done Visual Studio or CodeWarrior plugins, scripted Max or Maya, worked with COM or debugged drivers under Linux, and you have absolutely no aspirations to be the next Warren Spector or Shigeru Miyamoto, but just want to do fun code and cool shit without the pressure of actually publishing a game, try support and tools.
Game industry titles (Score:3, Informative)
Most teams I've seen are composed of:
A. Programmers - Write code for the game.
1. Systems guys - Write engine code; generally code that's not game-specific.
2. Content guys - Write game code, which is usually game-specific.
B. Artists - Make art for the game.
1. Modelers - Make models.
2. Texture artists - Make textures for models and the world.
3. Animators - Animate characters.
4. Environment artists* - Make game levels.
C. Designers - Design game play.
1. Game designers - Design global game play systems.
2. Scripters - Implement game design through high-level coding.
3. Level designers* - Make game levels.
D. Management - Uh... management.
1. Producer
2. Director
So... there are really two ways into a "game design" job -- move up through level design (more art skills) or through scripting (more programming skills). If you're interested in pursuing the latter, grab a single-player Unreal-based game (like Deus Ex), learn UnrealScript, and put together some "mods" that will serve as a portfolio of your work.
As for programmer/designer, in my experience, it's not a good idea for the lead programmer to also be the lead designer. You really want a balance of power between the art lead, design lead, and programming lead. Otherwise, it's easy for an entire discipline (and game element) to get neglected.
* On some projects, level designers are responsible for making game levels; on others, environment artists do this. It's really the same job, although artist positions usually pay more.)
open everquest (Score:1)
Start with the open Quake engine, hook in a little TCP interface to download "scenery" during startup, and code up a server engine to keep track of the objects.
Oh, wait. There's no money here. Pop up ads during battle unless you pay.
To hell with 3D (Score:2)
IMHO, all the effort that goes into making a mad 3D multiplayer game is worth it to almost nobody. Too many variables, too many things that can go wrong, too many things that can delay a release, too many things that can wreck the gaming experience and tarnish your brand, too many system requirements...
Obviously if you are starting out and you don't eat derivatives for breakfast, set your sites on a simple text-based or 2D game. Single player. Do one thing perfect instead of a million things wrong. How easily we geeks neglect a vast world of gaming that isn't 3D, and how simpler and better our chances would be if we tabled quantum physics until our fourth or fifth game release. ;)
Middleware & Mods (Score:1)
Regarding 'middleware' - Vito makes some good points, it can be a lot of fun! You get to work on interesting game tech without pressure from publishers, stupid time pressure etc. It's also quite a good way into the industry!
The downside is, you are unlikely to see something you did directly on the screens on EB! Sure, you'll know that your code is running under the hood, but the lack of real input into the process, and having to always solve other people's problems rather than your own, made me want to get a little closer to the process.