System Administrators - College or Career? 1092
Chicks_Hate_Me asks: "I'm a Senior in High School right now and I'm graduating soon (hopefully!) and I was wondering what the hell I should do? My teachers are all telling me I should go to college, but they don't know much about computers so they automatically assume that I wan't to be a programmer or an engineer. I want to be neither, in fact, I want to become a System Administrator. Is college really the best option? Or should I concentrate on getting certification, experience, and taking a few junior college classes on the side? I've already gotten a few job consultancy offers in the area. What has the experience been for any of you out in the tech industry? For you that went to college, did it truly help? And for you that didn't go to college, has it been harder for you to find a job? Also, if you believe that I should go to college, what should I major in? But if you think I shouldn't, what certifications would hold valuable in the future, and what kind of job positions should I take now?" The never ending question. College is a valuable experience for most, but it's also expensive and time consuming. Might that time be better spent in the job market now rather than later (current conditions notwithstanding)?
Learn your trade (Score:5, Insightful)
Go to college (Score:5, Insightful)
A good plan (Score:2, Insightful)
* Work and play for a year while you get instate.
* Enjoy college. Those are good years and you'll work the rest of your natural born life (save the low-probability cash-out option; see "unemployed", "options", "mortgage")
* College degrees are often important. Not always, and it doesn't always matter what they are. Sysadmining in college is a pretty good gig.
College degree opens alot of doors (Score:2, Insightful)
College... (Score:1, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Definately go to college (Score:5, Insightful)
Its only four years, go ahead and get it. It will give you a foot in the door most anywhere. And while you're at college work for their IT Services, you'll come out with both a degree and 4 years of experience.
I'm biased, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Since it looks like you aren't planning on going to a university this fall, it wouldn't hurt to get a certification or two in the upcoming year. But definitely go to university. To go immediately into the work world out of high school seems like a complete waste of youth to me. There are many more entertaining ways to waste those precious years between 18 and 24 than slaving long hours as a sysadmin.
Been there done that. (Score:5, Insightful)
I am a System Administrator ... (Score:2, Insightful)
My parents also always push to get a degree
Anyway, congrats on wanting to be an SA, its a good career choice I think, as you get exposed to a lot, and it can lead to other things, programming, DBA, network guy etc etc
Over all though, college looks like its a lot of fun, if a lot of work. If your parents will pay for it, I say go for it! Maybe you'll get to go to a few good parties
Choose no life. Choose System Administration.
College, for three reasons. (Score:5, Insightful)
Firstly, whether it's fair or not, a lot of places simply won't look at your resume for any technical position unless you have a post-secondary degree of some kind. If you have many years of experience (3 minimum), you may be able to get by on past work alone, but even then you'll be less favoured for raises and promotions because of the impression that you're less "skilled".
Secondly, going through the computer stream, the business stream, or both, in college, will give you extra perspective on where the demands of management and the coders are coming from, and how to balance their requests. You'll be able to do a better job (not all of the job is technical).
Thirdly, it gives you flexibility and mobility in your job. You're qualified for being more than just a sysadmin, so you can take other positions if there are no sysadmin jobs available or if your interests change over time. Choice is usually a good idea.
In summary, I think that college would be very valuable for you at your current career stage.
College is always the better choice (Score:2, Insightful)
Go and get your computer science degree. Plus you will never forget those four or five years. You'll make new friends.
Finally, if you can prolong your arrival into the real world, by all means do it!
Degrees (Score:5, Insightful)
In the whole dot-bomb craze, a lot of people dropped out of high school and college, and went to work for obscene amounts of money. Now, many companies have realized that it take more than a working knowledge of whatever field is popular - it doesn't matter if you're the world's greatest genius in a particular field if you can't do the *other* parts of the job, like interacting with customers, making clear notes about what you've done for the runbook, and generally communicating with your co-workers.
I got my degree on the ten-year plan. It's not in a computer-related field, but having it means that more doors are open to me.
At that point.... (Score:2, Insightful)
How many problems do you have that require little to no thought at all? How many problems have you run into that require no imagination to overcome?
I would imagine very few.
The day that we have a program called System Administrator, (That actually performs all of those tasks...) is the day that the human race will begin its true downfall. Until then we have our minds, imagination and ingenuity to accomplish anything we put ourselves to.
Oh, no you don't. (Score:5, Insightful)
You think you want to be a sysadmin. That's because you're young and stupid. (Sorry, dude, but every high school senior is young and stupid.) You don't yet know how demoralizing it is to work as a sysadmin. The pay gets a lot less attractive as soon as you have a family. You get very little respect, very little appreciation, in order to do a good job as a sysadmin you have to give solemn orders to people above you in the org chart of your work place, which makes you a prime target at every round of layoffs. The hardware and software both such and drive you to exasperation.
The hours suck rocks through a garden hose. Trust me on this, there is nothing more demoralizing than rushing to work to fix an outage at 3 AM because your ISPs clients are getting mad at having to wait for their pron. The hours suck more when you're on call and you realize your wife is better looking and your kids far cuter than any of your cow orkers or clients, and that your wage rate cannot justify a single additional hour away from them.
So, forget about sysadminning, at least for now. Go to college. Shop around for areas of inquiry that might interest you, or might not interest you yet. Join the army. I'm not kidding. The army beats sysadminning hands down. Or try jobs that involve your hands or the open air. But for mercy's sake, don't sysadmin just yet.
Definitely go to college (Score:3, Insightful)
Good luck!
College will be what you make it (Score:2, Insightful)
Or you could spend it trying to live a beer commercial fantasy and wonder why you wasted 4 years and tens of thousands of dollars. Your choice.
Re:Go to college (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Go to college (Score:3, Insightful)
I thought I wanted to be an Electronic Engineer until I took some programming classes. Being introduced to *nix was the final nail in the coffin of that career track.
Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy playing with hardware, but it just doesn't get me as excited as software does. I could definately see myself working with embedded systems, though...
Re:Go to college (Score:3, Insightful)
college will give you much more than job skills. it will teach you some about computers, but you'll also learn a lot about yourself. it is worth the price. five years out i'm still paying loans, but i am very glad to have had the experiences that came with those loans.
Go To College (Score:2, Insightful)
Let me start by saying that I had an overwhelmingly positive college experience. I knew I was a computer geek before I went, and I figured I'd major in CS and become a programmer.
I went to a small liberal arts college [williams.edu] with a great CS program [williams.edu]. But also important was the fact that there was a student-run web group [williams.edu] that had just gotten off the ground (this was 1996, mind you). It was a student club -- none of us were paid for the work that we did, but we maintained several Linux machines for students to serve web pages from (at this time, the college did not provide web space for students, and most students could not set up their own web servers.
I learned a heck of a lot from that club, both from trying things out on my own, but also from being around other people who knew more/different things than I did. I have since applied that knowledge in sysadmin and programming jobs.
All this would seem to indicate that you don't really need classes to get good at being a sysadmin. However, I found classes helpful (and relevant). You'll need to be a good programmer to be a good sysadmin (at least on Unix, anyway -- can't speak to Windows since I don't use it). More importantly, many employers want to see a college degree. It's not 1999 anymore, and you can't just wander into a startup and demand a job because you know a little bash scripting
College is practically a prerequisite for most high-paying jobs now, and even when the economy wasn't soft college was considered important by many employers (at least, all the ones I interviewed with).
So, my feeling is that college is both important to employers, and also a great opportunity to grow and learn from other people like yourself. Yes, it costs money (sometimes a lot of money), but the experience is well worth it. Plus, if you can find a more sysadmin-related group at your school (as I did), the experience can be much more valuable than any certification course you can take. Even if there's no ad-hoc group, you could always look for employment in the college itself (running a public lab, for instance), which both looks good on the resume and gives you valuable experience.
Re:Learn your trade (Score:3, Insightful)
If you're concerned about "getting your foot in the door" more than you are about pay, and if your expertise is limited, try an internship. This will get you in the door and you'll be in a position to push for a full-time position without having demeaned yourself in the process. Undercutters are viewed as sharks in any industry, and are generally treated as such. Interns who later become employees are generally remembered for having learned fast, become an expert, and pursued a position with passion. Internships are also a great form of "free learning".
-Sara
Learn how to Learn Your Trade in College (Score:5, Insightful)
College also has several other added benefits over typical 'job experience'. College not only teaches you job skills, it teaches you to be resourceful in finding answers you don't automatically know. Programming courses in college have proven invaluable to me as a system admin even though I don't do much programming. Understanding how programming languages work and the data structures involved are not a typical job requirement but end up helping you alot in the long run. One of the best classes I ever took was "Basic Compiler Design" which has absolutely no relevance to any job I ever held, however, it did teach me a commanding knowledge of C++ and advanced data structures. If anything, college teaches you how to research problems and solve them. The college I went to make a specific point in the compsci department of not teaching specific software packages/solutions. Their goal was to teach the student how to learn those specific skills on their own when needed. In hindsight I must say that at the time it made little sense, but now I realize it makes all the sense in the world as those skills come into play almost daily.
And unless you are already married or an introverted supernerd, why in hell would you pass up FOUR YEARS of endless dating/mating possibilities? GO TO COLLEGE JUST FOR THE GIRLS, YOU WILL NEVER HAVE A MORE VARIED POTENTIAL DATING POOL IN YOUR LIFE (unless yer Hugh Hefner).
Go to college, you fool! (Score:3, Insightful)
college sounds better. (Score:2, Insightful)
But what if you change your mind along the way?
I know that a lot of people say that it never happens that much, maybe it doesn't. But it still happens, and if you haven't got a college education, you're aimed in only one direction. One of the nice parts about college is that you get to try a lot of things and get a more well-rounded education.
Perhaps you could just opt for some kind of part-time job instead. If you're really loving the job more than college, you can switch over.
Do both.... (Score:3, Insightful)
On the plus side,
work often pays for tuition
you have a lot of experience when the time comes to move into that "real" job.
might even find that real job while going to school (woot!)
Downside?
It will take an extra 2-3 years to get your degree
you may become cold and jaded as the real world exposes you to the way things work in business rather than class.
Expand your mind (Score:3, Insightful)
I wasn't ready for college, and got sent full-boat. It took 7 semesters to finish flunking out, and after 3 years factory work, another year to get the credits and GPA to graduate. It wasn't until after I got married and joined my wife at her college (younger woman) that I decided I liked working with pooters (God bless Linux Torvalds). Dropped Education classes, picked up a couple programming classes, got a job as a programmer, parleyed that to sysadmin, and never looked back.
You do need some programming to be a truly successful sysadmin, and a good liberal arts education opens lots of other approaches.
The degree is pretty much required to move beyond a certain point, but it doesn't much matter what it's in.
The voice of experience.... (Score:5, Insightful)
A few years ago I dropped out of college after my second year and started working as a full-time sysadmin. During that time I have had multiple jobs, moving from working in the financial industry, to a dotcom (Which crashed and burned.) to government contracting. Each job change has resulted in a huge raise, and my salary (With no degrees or certifications.) has risen to over $65,000 USD with incredible benefits, not bad for a 23 year old college drop out with no degrees or certifications. I have my own car, my own apartment, little debt, and life is generally pretty good. But...
Not a day goes by that I don't regret not staying in school. Having a degree opens doors I never dreamed of, and people who do go through school come out knowing things that you will probably never learn on the job. Every time I turn around I think about all the useful skills I could have picked up by staying in school, especially when it comes to serious programming and computer internals. On top of that, there are always plenty of people who will not take me seriously until I get myself through night school an earn the degree.
I can understand why you might not want to go to college to be a sysadmin; most computer programs don't teach what it takes to do a sysadmin's job. But as a sysadmin who passed on college, you will find yourself trapped in far more limits than the limited choices you may have when it comes to learning to manage a network at school.
So stay in school. Just get yourself through a four-year computer science degree, and spend your time worrying about programming, network and computer internals, and other such stuff. Build good relationships with like minded folks at school and online, because helpful friends, especially on EFNet or mailing lists, will save your ass at work more than any vendor support or book. Plan ahead to find yourself good summer internships at tech related companies, even if you have to just volunteer. Try to get a government internship with a Top Secret clearance and you will be guaranteed a great job as soon as you get out of school.
When it comes to school, it sucks, but it will be worth it. Trust me.
think long-term (Score:2, Insightful)
- You won't want to be a sysadmin forever, so go to college and explore the possibilities. Once you're in a career, it's really difficult to change tracks. You may find later on that you are bored with being a sysadmin, and you want to try out something else. But most jobs don't grant you the luxury of switching gears.
- Having a "theoretical" background from a college education is beneficial even for a sysadmin. It gives you a framework for acquiring knowledge and understanding. Just knowing how to run a Solaris box or make an ethernet cable isn't enough. You need the higher-level knowledge to put it all in perspective (to think outside the box, as another poster put it).
- Certifications are worthless in my book. They get dated rather quickly, so you have to keep getting re-certified every year, and it winds-up being a rat-race. Besides, it's been my experience that if a guy has a certification, it's no indication of what he really knows or what he can really do. It's only an indication of how well he can regurgitate something on a standardized test. Kind of like a handful of the guys I've interviewed recently.
- College is fun.
Re:Learn your trade (Score:5, Insightful)
The short answer is do both.
Go to a college/university that has a good computing infrastructure - lots of different departments with different needs, etc, etc.
Earn a degree while working on the computing staff - and I don't mean be a baby sitter at the on-campus PC labs. Approach any of the sysadmin groups and offer your services as a Junior Admin.
By the time you graduate, you will have several years of true experience and the piece of paper to get you in the door.
Best of luck.
Re:Learn how to Learn Your Trade in College (Score:3, Insightful)
Furthermore, depending on the college it can actually hurt your chances. Certain schools (I'm not going to name names) have a reputation of shuffling people out half-educated.
College is not a guarantee of anything. Experience and expertise is.
-Sara
Re:Go to college (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Learn your trade (Score:2, Insightful)
Be willing to accept the low-end of the industry standard for the job that you want to do, but don't drop the price so much that people start to ask "What is going on here?"
-Sara
Re:System Administrator (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't rush to college (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:College is bullshit and here's why (Score:2, Insightful)
...and always be working for someone else. Not to mention two years later your college friends will end up being your boss.
You can get those certs while in school you know.
College gets you friends, contacts, laid, and is a blast. You learn things other than how to set up a routing table. I learned to speak German there. Do I need this - no - but I am glad I learned it!
So what if you are behind the curve for 2 or three years - after that you race far ahead!
Re:Go to college (Score:5, Insightful)
For one thing, what I learned in the higher educational systems was probably not directly marketable skills, but rather a method of thinking and working. An amount of logic and patience. And I got to know a lot of cool guys who today are scattered over the world working with interresting stuff (Hey, colleage is a good way to start networking).
Also, at the more decent colleages, they will teach you the primes of networking and the wheres and whys of the protocols - rather than the hows of specific vendor solutions. Same goes for programming. Even as a non-programmer, the basic ideas of programming comes handy, and even though you may learn some weird academic languages, the principles will also apply in bash and perl.
The final thing is, that while a colleage education more or less always will remain valid, a vendor certificate becomes obsolete: the market shifts from one vendor to another, new products emerge and others disappear etc. So while vendor certifications may buy you big money now, they may not be there for the long term.
I've seen a sufficient number of people starting in sysadm positions from nothing but high-school and industrial experience - and a few vendor certificates. I've also seen the same persons spend unreasonably long time puzzled over things (mainly networking-wise, I admit), which were outside of what their certification course had taught them.
Today, I'd be reluctant to hire someone whos only credentials are experience and vendor certificates. Of course, there are naturals for whom colleage may not do too much. I've yet to come across any, though. And, if nothing else, a colleage diploma tells me that the person is at least persistant enough to start something, and finish it. That alone is to appreciate.
Also, a colleage diploma is more of a wildcard. Right now, you may think that system administration is all you want to do. However in 10 years, you may see the world differently. I think that a colleage diploma would make it easier for you to eventually transit into a different type of position. I think that, if nothing else, this argument should carry some weight. I, for one, hadn't envisioned that I would end where I am 10 years ago. Actually, I'd probably have sworn I'd never end where I am...:)
So go to colleage and get a diploma. Meanwhile, if you have time, or afterwards while in your first job, supplement with a couple of certificates. That would make you a good candidate to hire...
College is about more than learning computers (Score:1, Insightful)
College AND Certification (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I'm biased, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
If you're a sys-admin for your college, then yes, its worth it. But if your taking a CS degree, unless they are teaching you perl, sendmail/postfix, bind, apache/php etc, your going to have to learn these skills to acquire the job. If you are in college, Get an apprenticeship FAST.
Colleges didn't offer the skill I needed when I first started an ISP, I had to build Unix boxes, mail servers, configure routers and learn how to do it myself. Reading books, living on Usenet, and drinking coffee till 5am to fix problems before customers got up in the morning.
Lets not even talk about all the 3rd party hardware that you will have to learn, Cisco, Nortel, Eriksson, lucent, nokia, etc.. This stuff is upgraded so fast, features you learned on 2.0 will not exist in 3.0.
Its hard to be a master of everything, knowledge about Unix and protocols will help learning any new software application. There are tech schools that will help with this, and might be a better bang for the buck than college. College was about relationships, a lifestyle, your father went to the same college, etc.. Today, Education is a commodity, your paying for your future, get your moneys worth. Treat your life like a business, and plan, and purchase correctly.
BTW, most CEOs/CFOs/etc have Masters or Doctorates. There is part time college like Phoenix university that might help.
-
I owe my success to having listened respectfully to the very best advice, and then going away and doing the exact opposite. - G. K. Chesterton (1874 - 1936)
He should go to college because (Score:5, Insightful)
If he actually thinks hes going to make a career thats going to last more than 10 years as a system admin, hes going to be wrong, VERY wrong.
Eventually servers will maintain themselves, lets not forget the system admin market is not in demand and hes not going to get paid a decent wage for much longer.
What he should do is go to college, get a Good 4 year degree, maybe work as a system admin via intership, Then when he graduates from college he can continue on as a Sys Admin.
He needs to get his degree so he can adapt to the times, when the time comes, Hes going to have to get a new job, wheres he going to go 11 years from now? or 20? Does he really want to go to college at age 30? By then he'll be far behind.
Look, you have to build your nest egg as soon as possible, that is
A. If you want to retire ever.
B. If you want to have kids.
C. If you want a house, car, or anything.
He needs a degree to have a stable career, he can get a job with just a diploma, they'll hire him as a sys admin, it will be his job, but when they dont need him anymore, hes gone, jobless.
Re:Learn how to Learn Your Trade in College (Score:5, Insightful)
On the flip side you've also got the geeks from Harvard or MIT who think that the world should bow to them because of their degree.
Arrogance is on both sides, not just the side of the self-taught. Skills are on both sides, not just on the side of the college educated.
-Sara
Whatever you do - GO TO COLLEGE! (Score:2, Insightful)
With a college degreee you have a MUCH better chance getting a job "outside" your field of specialty.
For Example: When I left High School, I thought I wanted to be a chemist, so I went to college and got a BS in Chemistry. I got a cool job as an inorganic chemist right out of college making so-so money. It turned out that STUDYING chemistry was a LOT more fun than doing it every day, so while I was working in the lab, I taught myself VB. I liked VB so much more than chemistry that I quit my job (5 years ago) , and now make 75K a year +benefits as a VB programmer. Had I not gone to college, no employer would have hired me as a programmer. If I had gone to a "vo-tek" school for chemistry, my only option would be to stick to chemistry, and I would be stuck doing a job that I hated.
Re:Go to school (Score:3, Insightful)
I've had a number of different jobs in the tech arena now, from systems administration to Web development to writing and editing, as well as doing other things on a freelance basis, like consulting and even illustration. And no, I didn't go to school -- which isn't to say that anybody else shouldn't go.
Whether you go or not, though, my advice is to diversify your skillset as much as possible. And if you want to concentrate on some "top" skills that will get you farthest ahead, then forget about sysadmin and forget about programming. Bone up on your communication skills. Take English classes, take public speaking, take debate. Learn to communicate effectively. On top of that, read the newspaper, listen to NPR, and learn how the world works outside the server room. It'll all help keep you afloat a lot more than knowing Unix ever will, cuz 19-year old Unix gurus are a dime a dozen.
Re:Learn how to Learn Your Trade in College (Score:3, Insightful)
#1 Skills aren't important, and never were. Especially skills beyond "minimally competent".
#2 Managers don't like people that like to learn, they like people with ambition. Ambition (in the form of education) is somehow more worthwhile than knowing your stuff, and corporate america will always strive to foster ambition.
#3 Interpersonal skills is management jargon for "I'll do you a favor now, in the hopes that you'll be able to perform one for me later". People who like to learn, or do exceptional work never seem to find time for this.
#4 The worst of all bad attitudes is thinking that skill or talent are worth anything to those that will hire you. The only thing you can expect from those with this attitude, is that they'll show you up, or expose you for the talentless ladder-climber that you are.
#5 Technical skills are easy to fake with committees and poorly written technical procedure manuals. Sure, this only gets you the bare minimum, but in a society that celebrates mediocrity, why buy more than you need?
PS Please do not mod the parent as Troll, I actually believe he is honest.
Catch 22! (Score:2, Insightful)
You cant "learn" a talent though.
Your talent may be your technical skills and not your people skills.
What you have to do, is focus just enough on the people skills to get hired and in the door, then use your technical skills to stay in once you get in.
Working as a team, thats something you can learn playing online RPGs and sports.
Charisma, Humor, and things like that, it cant be learned, either you are goodat it or you arent.
So the goal is to level it out, put on a good act, make yourself seem like you are good with people, wear a nice suit and tie to your interviews, be polite, and when you get the job, continue to be polite, dress nice, and respect everyone.
Do not argue with anyone whos been there longer than you (its a death wish) and just put in effort to get along with them all on a business level.
Its no diffrent than school, you cant avoid people, you can learn to tolerate them and deal with them in a professional manner so that people dont have a problem with you and use your superior techical skills to make them respect you and want to have you around.
Thats what I basically did, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt, depending on which corporation you work for, as some corporations almost demand you go to social events, others are very laid back and just want you to do your work and get along with everyone.
Do as I say, not as I do... (Score:4, Insightful)
That said, I think a college education can be invaluable, if you're into it. If you're not, don't go and waste your parents' or your own money. If you go to college, go because you want the education, and I'm not just talking about an education in computers. If that's all you really want, then just get your certifications and go into the workforce.
College isn't much of a preparation for a particular job, so much as a general education, which I think everyone needs. One of my favorite quotes from Mark Twain is, "Never let your schooling interefere with your education." My personal translation that I live by, is "Don't limit your education to your schooling." Education is a lifelong process that shouldn't end until you die.
I was always a horrible student in English, but I discovered in the "real" world, being literate, in speaking and in writing is very important. While it may be wrong, many people, myself included, judge a person's intelligence, to a large degree, by their literacy. If people write poorly, I tend to think less of their intelligence. Is that fair? Maybe not, but you'll find it's quite common.
Education in other subjects is just as important, for a variety of reasons, but in general, to be an interesting and interested member of the human race. There's a lot more to life than your job, and an education, formal or otherwise, adds a lot of dimensions to your life.
But that's just my degree-less opinion.
Re:Definately go to college (Score:5, Insightful)
- Try electrical or computer engineering. If you can't handle the workload:
- Try computer science or a softwarey-engineering style degree. If you can't handle the workload:
- Consider a Math or Physics B.Sc. If you can't handle the math, the usual reason for #1 or #2 not working out, then:
- Try a history degree, or anything besides a BA english. Music, maybe. It's fun, there's chicks, and you get a piece of paper. Rely on work experience (you will have loads of extra time in arts) to balance out the lack of direct experience. BUT - when you graduate, do a Masters degree in something artsy, bonus points for it being computer related. It'll give you a story to tell in interviews.
- All the while, you should be running your own home network, comprised of as many different machines and obsolete networking equipment as possible. Take pictures with you to your interviews and talk about your experiences. That will garner you more points with me (combined with a degree, of course) than all the certs in the world.
TRY college if you can at all swing it. You will be a different person in 10 years, trust me. You don't want to regret anything, and regretting going to college will make regretting not asking that hot redhead in your morning class will look like missing a morning latte'.
Things to think about... (Score:2, Insightful)
Maybe a couple of years of average wages - assuming you attend a 2 year tech school (few will pay the big bucks to a kid with a high school degree, regardless of knowledge or experience). Plus, the cost of school itself.
2.) Benefits of a degree
- You have something to put in the "Education" are of your resume other than a high school degree. It may sound trival & stupid...but it's true.
- The chance to work with top of the line technology (depending on the school) and to be around others who are equally interested in your field (this is where you learn the most)
- You increase your market value
I think the basic question that you have to ask yourself is: "Do I want to be an SA for the rest of my career?".
I was in the same boat coming out of high school (graduated in 1996). I had way more experence in the "computing area" than many adults I knew. In fact in 93-94, I was the only one in my high school with internet access (1200 baud
I'm graduating next week with a Masters Degree in e-Business, and I really feel that I made the right choice. Don't trap yourself into a career by passing up a college degree, even a 2 year school would be sufficient. It will only enhance your marketability when applying for jobs.
Re:My experience.. (Score:3, Insightful)
1. Why do you think that I would not go on to get a degree later on? Or that I've even started?
2. Why does one need to advance? Perhaps I like being a sysadmin, perhaps I don't want to do anything else, perhaps $65k/year is more then enough for me and my family?
I never understood this, I know people that do shit work, digging holes, and they're the happiest people in the world, they can more then care for their needs and the needs of their families, yet people like you look down on them. Perhaps it's because you've spent all this time, energy, and money so you can get all this extra income, only to find out that you're not happy, and that your life, while filled with all the latest gee-whiz stuff, sucks..
Don't Go to College for a Trade (Score:3, Insightful)
I'll start off by admitting that I am infact a college grad. However, I'm not working in my field, physics. I've been a professional programmer ever since I graduated. Here's the rub: I have zero formal education in the field. I built my skills up on the side during college and started getting progressively more responsible jobs afterwards. My physics education has been useful indirectly(analytical skills, math knowledge etc), but has only rarely been directly applied. Do I regret wasting four years on an education that hasn't helped me professionally? Heck no! I loved physics. I'm just not really good enough to make it as a scientist. I went for it and didn't make the cut. No regrets whatsoever for trying. Just a few for not making it.
So what does this mean for your plans? College is not a trade school, and frankly, thats what much of the computer field amounts to, a trade or vocation. I'd say you're better off getting some certs and some junior college creds if you want to be a sys admin. Meanwhile if you go to college, study something you love for its own sake. Looking at what college costs now as opposed to when I went, I'd really have to ask myself whether the skills I would acquire would be worth it. However, the cautionary note here is that a lot employers in the IT field want a bachelors. Some state "or equivalent experience", but most want that BA or BS.
Re:Learn how to Learn Your Trade in College (Score:5, Insightful)
#1 Technical skills, in the form of specific experience in a particular OS or certification are irrelevant. We have IT staff who were interns, clerks or in one case a driver who injured his leg. In most cases they became good mid-level Unix or NT admins in about 12-18 months. 5/6 of them are taking classes paid for by our organization.
#2 I don't know about other people, but I like people who take their work & education seriously. Programmers who come from a CS or EE background are far better than those who missed out on formal education about 50-75% of the time. They tend to stick around longer too.
#3 We work in teams here. If our best programmer was hit by a bus, we wouldn't lose too much as far as coding or system availability went. (It would be a terrible thing, of course)If some exceptional geek who won't talk to anyone leaves or suffers from some tragedy, there is a much bigger loss.
#4 Skill and talent are important. Soft skills are important too.
#5 Manuals are easy to fake. Success isn't.
Re:The voice of experience.... (Score:2, Insightful)
I do.
In fact, I'm starting down the path to mine on the 28th of this month. I have a wife, kids, and a full time job, and I'm still going after it, hard as it will be. What should that tell you? That after several years in the industry (about six), I've learned that a degree is a valuable enough thing to make me go through this to get mine.
You see, there are things other than SysAdminning that I want to do. Particularly, I have found I really enjoy developing software. But it's far more difficult to pursue that sort of career without a degree. And even though I'm gainfully employed now (I'm one of the lucky ones), what happens if I get laid off tomorrow? I don't like to think about that. I have kids to feed.
You have to ask yourself, are you sure being an SA is really what you want to do for the rest of your life? Wait, I take that back. Don't bother asking yourself that, because I can guarantee you you don't know the answer right now. I wish I were back in your shoes knowing what I know now. You've heard this from many people here today...just go get your degree. Trust those of us who have been in your place and blew it.
And, I'm sure there will be lots of posts from people saying "I don't have a degree, and I'm a successful SA/Developer/Engineer/whatever...". Yeah, it's true, it can be done. I've done it. But even I, who has had success without one, is now about to go down a very tough road of acquiring one. Trust me when I tell you there are damn good reasons for that. Learn from my (our) mistakes so you don't end up doing it the hard way, too.
And good luck to you. =)
What complete rubbish (Score:5, Insightful)
No computer lab worth its name would accede to such demands. In fact, such demands should convince them entirely that you're more interested in flashy-looking paperwork than actual learning, and hence are not a good candidate.
Accepting often-meaningless industry certs does not demonstrate that a department is interested in real-world skills, it demonstrates that the department is desperate for cash and trying to gain corporate sponsorship. Real skills taught by real colleges last far longer than any industry cert. Do you really think a month of studying Swing or MFC is worth as much as a month learning what data structures are all about?
That's why my degree will last for life, but the MCPs who took Visual C++ 6 several years ago are now "uncertified" again, in spite of the fact that the tool hasn't actually changed a bit since then and is still in mainstream use. The vast majority of industry certifications are money-spinning, code-monkey-developing cash cows, and nothing more. (Incidentally, having recently been in the job market myself, this seems to be how they are perceived by employers looking to fill good positions. Compare and contrast with proper degrees, please.)
And speaking of starting salaries, if you think some pro cert is going to get you a higher salary than a degree at the start of your career, you're gravely mistaken. Many places will file you in the circular cabinet without a second thought if you aren't degree-qualified, however many TLAs, ETLAs and so on you write on your resume. I don't think it's going to be hard to beat a starting salary of $5/hour at McD's.
For whom? Not any employers, programmers or sysadmins I know, at any level of experience, that's for sure.
College is NOT needed, but do it, or do military. (Score:3, Insightful)
College is not needed for most computer/IT/internet careers ... at least not to be able to do them. I've seen too many "idiots with degrees" to ever believe that college makes much of a difference. And this applies whether the career is programming or system administration or network administration.
What college will do for you is:
I may be hiring by the end of the year in a business I'm still trying to get launched. I can tell you this. I'd much rather hire someone coming out of the military than someone coming out of college. Good people can learn new technology. Bad people are stuck in what they managed to learn some of. Learning takes discipline, and you get far more of that in the military than in college. Not everyone coming out would be worth hiring, but even fewer coming out of college will be ... and fewer still coming out of high school. I'll be looking more for solidity in understanding basic logic and strategy, then in understanding any particular system. I'd rather hire a smart person with an MCSE (which is otherwise worthless) than a dumb person with an RHCE for doing Linux administration.
No question. (Score:2, Insightful)
1) College is the most fun four years of your life. Five if you stretch it. :) If you miss them you will regret it for the rest of your life. You won't have anywhere near the same experience if you go back when you're 30; you'll just be studying (which is what it sounds like you think all of college is. Wrong!)
2) Maybe 10% of what I learned in college related to my major (CS) (and unlike many people, I majored in what I eventually ended up working in.) Maybe 30% total was related to classes I took. That doesn't mean the other 70% wasn't useful to learn; in fact I think it was that other 70% that most made the time worthwhile. Some of it might relate to hobbies you take up and get a lot of fun from. Some of it will be interpersonal relationships (read that how you like. :) Sex, but more than that too. Friends who will last you your whole life. Teachers who will open your eyes to new things, academic and otherwise. More.) Some of it will just be fun and cool stuff you'll never forget.
3) Maybe 10% of what I knew about my major when I graduated, I learned in classes. The rest of the stuff I got because I had four years to essentially play with whatever interested me, with the college's blessing and equipment and assistance (except for the one time when I almost got expelled. :) )
But at the same time don't discount that classroom 10%. Many of the things I learned from classes were things I would not ever have learned on my own, for lack of time or interest or simply not having a reason to go there. Chip architecture and why some types of operations work better than others. Compiler design. Assembly language. Real fundamentals that make the bits and pieces you learn elsewhere fit into a cohesive framework and become workable knowledge. In addition to giving you a better understanding of things you know now, you'll have a more solid base for learning things in the future.
4) Maybe you will find that you like something even better than being a sysadmin. Don't scoff, it happens all the time. Acting. Teaching. Digging up fossils. Blowing up the chem lab. Whatever. Maybe even programming. :) You won't ever be exposed to most of these things if you go straight into the workforce.
5) If you really feel the need to work, you can work while you're in college. Best of all possible worlds. Not only are you getting the experience, you're having the fun, and if you run into a problem at work you have a ton of resources at hand you can use to learn about the problem and how it should be fixed. You can get a job with a company and make (a little) money or you can work at a job in the college and get broader experience. Or both, if you're a masochist.
6) Did I mention that college was fun?
People here who are saying "You don't need college; look at me, I didn't," don't know what they are missing. Sure they have a job. Whoopee. If a job is all you want out of life, fine. But IMNSHO college is an opportunity for a lot more than a better job.
Don't screw yourself. Go to college.
Almost in the same boat about 25 years ago... (Score:1, Insightful)
So... there I was, 19 years old, working full salary for a national retail company, with the responsibilty of ensuring that their mainframe systems ran. The support department had about 12 people in it, divided into 4 groups -- across operating system and product lines, and I was one of the lead programmers.
Today, I'm still doing systems support. I've switched jobs twice. First time was because of a chance to move to a part of the country that I had always wanted to live in. I was hired as a senior level software developer (I had picked up quite abit of programming skills). However, after 5 years, the company did a major downsizing and the entire department that I was in was let go. I was able to pick up a new job fairly quickly doing system support work again (which I really prefer).
However... now that I have said all of that...
I never did get to college for a degree. Most of the people that I currently work with do have a degree (or two). The only problem that I've had in terms of work was getting my foot in the door. My resume is quite impressive (large varity of skills, lots of leadership stuff, etc.). When I was layed off I had quite abit of trouble landing interviews. I had one company call me saying that I had all the skills they needed, but they had a company policy to only hire people with degrees. The job that I have now, was because I had some contacts inside that knew my work and knew what I could do.
So for me at least, the lack of degree hasn't been much of a hinderance in terms of the skills I need to *DO* the job, however I suspect that if I need to hit the streets again, there might be some problems getting my foot in the door at some places without a slip of paper that says I spent 4 years getting that slip of paper. Yes... I've kept up to date with current trends (Linux, OSS, web programming, Java, Perl, etc.).
So where is all of this leading to....
Well... here is my suggestion...
Quick answer... go to college.
Longer answer...
If you are truely a self learner -- and I mean outside of your central interests -- how is your knowlege of early European history and how some of that relates to what is happening today in the middle east? Have you read a novel that was published before 1900? Do you understand what exactly the Greeks contributed to the world in terms of science and mathematics, and how it is different from China?
If so then skip college -- as long as you can continue self learning in areas outside of work then you will be fine. Build up a good resume of skills, get to know and work *WITH* people at work, then you shouldn't have a problem.
If however you have only focused on being a sys admin and never really expanded your focus of interest to other areas, go get a degree. Go to a liberal arts college and take a variety of classes in areas outside of computers. The goal is to become a person with a rounded out view.
It's not so much the specific technical skills that are being looked for. It is: can you complete a major task on your own? Can you communicate with others? And are you an interesting person to be around for 8 hours a day?
Who will win in the long run? (Score:3, Insightful)
Why? Because these geeks will eventually have the experience, the degree, and the status.
IF you dont have a degree, Have fun competiting with the third world programmers and technicians in China, India, Pakistan, etc.
IF you didnt read the last slashdot article, Americans are being fired so these cheaper equally qualified workers from outside the country can take their job.
I recieved posts from people who said "Well to compete you have to provide better value"
The only way to provide better value is to have a better education. People in Pakistan may have more experience, more talent, and more skill but you still have to survive! You wont always be the smartest and best, you have to survive anyway, and when you compete with people who may be BETTER than you, you have to work HARDER than them to win, meaning getting your degree.
Lets see what slashdot thinks.
Quote from rmjiv rmjiv's profile [slashdot.org]
How about providing a better value? There will always be costs associated with manufacturing products at distance from use. This is as true of software as it is of cars. For cars, the extra costs is in the delivery. For software, it's in the communication of requirements (and the changing of requirements, etc.). If value = (quality / cost) then you don't necessarily need a lower cost to provide equal or greater value. I suggest reading Yourden's Rise and Resurrection of the American Programmer. It's an interesting read, and might even cheer you up.
BTW, if you can't provide a better value, why do you believe you deserve a job as a programmer?
She came sliding down the alleyway like butter dripping off of a hot biscuit."
Quote from Whitehawke WhiteHawke's Profile [slashdot.org]
Actually, I'm not worried about this for a lot of reasons:
1) As a skilled and reasonably experienced (7 years) developer, I'm better than most (though certainly not all) of the developers from the Third World.
2) I can actually interview on-site. Making a face-to-face impression is a HUGE advantage.
3) Companies don't even like to let people telecommute if they have a choice; they like to have people in-house, under their eye.
--Dave Storrs
These are some of the opinions of people at Slashdot, it seems they all see my point. Get a degree, or be replaced by Muhammed from Pakistan, or Wong Fei Lee from China.
You dont have a choice. Its survival of the most educated not the most talented.
Take your time ... (Score:2, Insightful)
I started college with a dual-major in physics and German. After a year I changed from physics to math. Soon after I wanted to change from math to CS, but wanted to graduate within 4 years so I just got a CS minor (stuck with the German though, it was easy). I programmed for a year, quit because I really didn't like it. Now I'm doing helpdesk work, and hate it.
Only about half the people I work with have college degrees, and most of them (myself included) had no idea what they wanted to do while in college. It has taken a few years of "real world" experience to figure it out, and some serious thinking. After taking some classes at the community college and spending several months thinking about what I like, I am preparing to start law school this fall. I am happy with my decision. However, I would have chosen classes differently and focused on different areas if I had been planning for a career in law rather than in {german,math,physics,programming}.
Bottom line is, college is important, but know what you want to do first. Even if you think you know now, take a few years to work (you have job offers!) before you make a commitment in college. Figure out your own path, get certifications as needed, and go to college when you think it is time, not when people tell you to do it.
Another less thought about option. (Score:1, Insightful)
You can always join the armed forces. There you would get on the job training and tuition assistance which pays 100% of your tuition less books. You get to work with military network control centers and a variety of others tasks that most system admins do. You get a full time paycheck, annual vacation, and the ability to see the world.
The military also teaches followership and eventually leadership traits. Forms the foundations for team building as well. While this is not for everyone, it is an option that could be persued.
In my experience most employers would look at a prior military candidate in a higher regard than most others.
My apologies if this came off as a recruiting pitch, it was not meant to be that at all.
Continue with education (Score:1, Insightful)
I took the path you are considering... work versus continued education... I've done well in Silicon Valley without a degree. I spent 8 years at HP and 7 years at Sun... But...
If I had to do it all over again... I defnitely would have continued with education first, career second... Here is why...
Ultimately I found that as my skills matured, I needed to rely on other skills that I had not developed on my own, but would have had to in school. If I had taken advantage of a good college education in Computer Science with a minor in Speech and Communications, I'd have a solid base of fundamentals, instead of a base that is like swiss cheese... Don't get me wrong, I've done well for myself... but I missed an opportunity to round myself out early on.
Besides developing a strong technical background, ultimately the need to communicate very well, both written and verbally is really key to achieving goals, coupled with the ability to be effective in grey areas of the technical profession.
I've had the opportunity to work with a few people that while going to college also worked supporting the campus computing environments. Also worked with people that have done internships at HP and Sun... This may be something that would work for you.
Another thing to consider... is that while you are early in your career path, getting school out of the way early, leaves room to later have a family... without having to go to school too...
In terms of cost of education... The Jr. Colleges in California are very inexpensive, and colleges like Santa Cruz have great extension classes.
Best of luck!
Kramer
www.qbal.com
College still important (Score:1, Insightful)
College is more than a trade school (Score:2, Insightful)
I teach a LAN Administration class at my high school (Bishop Union High, in Bishop, California), and every year I have the brightest, most motivated, and technically proficient kids in the school in my class.
The question often comes up about whether they should begin working and earning money right away, or whether to go off to college.
My advice? I see it this way. Kids have the entire rest of their lives to work. It would be foolish to jump into the work force without experiencing the joy of higher learning, if you have the opportunity. A college education is MORE than learning a trade. It is exposure to new ideas you may not have been exposed to otherwise. It is mingling with peers in a purely academic setting - an opportunity you will find quite rare as an adult in the workforce. Take the time to get the degree, and you'll find you not only have more foot-in-the-door clout, but you just may actually learn something OTHER than your passion (in this case, technology). Life is so much more than you can realize at 18.
So don't waste the opportunity for a few bucks now. You can *always* earn money - there is always a market for talented, enthusiastic people. It'll be there when you're done with college. Hell, it'll be there long after you're dead and gone.
Carpe diem.
Joe Griego
Dir., I.T.
BUHS