Is it Wrong to Accept an Employment Counter-Offer? 1048
An Anonymous Coward asks: "I was happily working away at a low-paying but otherwise good job I'd had for several months, after taking a huge pay cut when the dot.bomb bubble burst. Then a recruiter contacted me with a very nice potential position - I interviewed and received an offer with a 50% increase in pay, everything else nearly the same. When I received the offer and decided I was interested, I broke the news to my current employer - to my surprise they extended a counter-offer with a matching salary, thereby eliminating my only reason for considering the other job. However, I talked to some friends and checked the web for ideas and realized that there are a *lot* of ppl out there who believe you should never accept a counter-offer. They make some good points, and there are a lot of those pages - but on the web popularity breeds increased popularity, in a self-feeding cycle, so I'm wondering if the numbers are skewed unrealistically. Is it really that rare to do well by accepting a counter-offer? Do Slashdot readers have experience with counter-offers from present employers, positive or negative?"
Do Not Accept (Score:2, Informative)
Questionable... (Score:4, Informative)
counter offers (Score:2, Informative)
1) being considered a greedy troublemaker
2) why you weren't being properly compensated already.
Since salaries and duties seem to match, you have the luxury of considering other factors, like the impact on your commute, if any.
Good luck,
B2
Reminiscent of the good old days (Score:5, Informative)
If you feel the company really wants you to stay and isn't simply keeping you around to finish the current project, then I'd say stay.
The points on that page are very good, but it all really boils down to your relationship with your employer. If you feel like part of the team and you feel comfortable with the people you work with, stay. If you think this is just a ploy to give you your raise early and give you nothing when evaluations come around, then leave.
I have accepted a counteroffer before (Score:5, Informative)
A few days later, I was offered, not quite 50% more money, but close enough to make me happy. I accepted, and have not noticed any of the problems listed in the link. My raises have not been affected, coming just as often and just as large. My relationship with my peers has not been affected, and since I'm still working at the same place, I obviously haven't been canned or decided to leave anyways yet.
Not quite the same situation, I know, but close.
Honesty worked for me (Score:5, Informative)
Counteroffers, bad! (Score:2, Informative)
There is another good article about counteroffers here [prosearch.com]. You may also wish to read this article [prosearch.com] about how to resign from a job.
Good luck!
Re:Why not earlier (Score:5, Informative)
I doubt there were any dirty motives behind the company not raising pay by leaps and bounds.
It's in a company's best interest to pay workers as little as they can get away with. If said worker happens to be one of those quiet non-complaining sorts, it's easy to get lost in the paperwork and never see a raise.
That does not by implication indicate they don't value the employee, nor are unwilling to pay more for the same employee. They're just being practical, and assuming that if no one is complaining then everyone is happy and there's no reason to rock the boat.
Trying to keep the employee with a counter-offer is surely better than them shrugging it off and making sure the door doesn't hit him in the ass on the way out.
Some reasons why taking a counter-offer is bad. (Score:2, Informative)
- Your boss has to re-think any long-term plans that include your participation because a new offer with more money can come along at any time. The tough, interesting jobs are more likely to go to employees whom your boss can count on to stick around for a while.
- You've been given a lot more money up front, but it's going to be tempting for them to get some of it back in the form of fewer raises, bonuses, etc.
- If this increase puts you at market average wage, that means your current boss was comfortable paying you only 50% of what you were worth. Do you really want to work for your current employer?
Definitely do not accept, I did this and was laid (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Take the Counter -- NOTHING BUT BIAS (Score:5, Informative)
I accepted a counter offer... (Score:3, Informative)
My point is this. If you want to increase your salary well beyond the (typical) annual 4%, you usually have to go out and find a new job. However, if you _really_ enjoy where you work, it's definitely worth the risk of asking for them to match. What do you have to lose?
BIG problem with that plan... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Take the Counter (Score:2, Informative)
Many employers are discovering that additional paid time off has lots of hidden benefits.
1) A rested worker is more productive and does better quality work.
2) Employees remember the "generosity" and tend to be happier - more productive.
3) It may be cheaper to offer additional time off than it to increase payroll (within certain limits).
Re:Do Not Accept (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Take the Counter (Score:1, Informative)
Then if a counteroffer comes, you can weigh the proposal against your list of reasons and see if taking the offer makes sense. Adding more salary won't make you happy if the reason you're quitting is because your boss is an idiot.
There are some excellent articles online at www.ee.com written under the heading "Ask the Headhunter".
Re:Do Not Accept (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Do Not Accept (Score:5, Informative)
First, you have to look out FOR YOURSELF.
The company HAS NO LOYALTY. They have NO FEELINGS. They are NOT concerned for your well being.
Second, If you do not show growth in your career, in terms of skill and salary you will simply stop advancing. Opportunities will pass you by.
I know this sucks. I know how it feels to jump ship. I did to start headhunting. Now I make more money. I am constantly leearning (Mostly from talking to you guys!)
Best of luck out there.
tdutton@mac.com
IT Headhunter
Re:Why not earlier (Score:1, Informative)
Recruiters are pimps. They could give a damn about how you treat them, usually, and will just go for the commission. Do you *really* think they'll give a shit how they're treated when they're getting a 20-30k paycheck for a few hours work?
I worked as a recruiter, I know what the deal is. I couldn't have cared less if prospects were rude, fuckups, whatever, as long as I got paid. And I did.
Re:Never accepted one (Score:2, Informative)
Stability of Companies (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Take the Counter -- NOTHING BUT BIAS (Score:3, Informative)
There is serious debate going on about the approriateness of milk as calcium source. There are three major questions, the first is that milk doesn't have the same balance of minerals as our bodies need, and therefore someone using milk to ensure that they have enough calcium in their diet may end up being deficent in other minerals, it's much better to eat a well balanced diet which gives all the minerals from a variety of sources. The second question is how available is the calcium in milk anyway. With the majority of adults being lactose intollerant, many people find it difficult or impossible to drink enough milk to make a significant difference to their diet. The third is of course the high percentage of fat, sodium and potassium, all of which tend to be already in our diets at too high a level.
Re:Do Not Accept (Score:2, Informative)
Very carefully posting AC. This statement cannot be overstated enough. You must keep clawing your way up and ahead constantly. After a while, stuff just comes to you instead of you going after it.
I never graduated college, but still clawed my way through the industry by saying "I can do it" to virtually everyone who asked a skill of me. Of course, I was careful to always answer that way to skill requests that were just slightly above my real skill level. It has paid off. My real path started in '94, when I started on phone support for $18k. In '95, I moved to deskside support for $34k. In '96, I went to L2 help desk for $50k. In '97, I moved an OS/2 LAN to NT for $55k, with a prenegotiated raise to $60k and then $66k. In 2000, I demanded $80k to stay with the company, and 2 weeks later went on an interview with my new base salary. I rejected the salary matching "please don't leave" offer from the customer (not my employer).
Got the job doing enterprise consulting, and have since earned raises to $90k and now $111k (with 14 wks off a year). $18k to $111k in 8 years right through the dot bomb, just by job hopping. Out of the blue, someone in the company voted me to the top 1% performers club just for building about 50 NT servers by hand, and the customer whom I left calls me every couple of months to see if I'm available.
AFAICT, rejecting the counteroffer makes them respect your toughness, and makes them want you even more.. like the one that got away.
Is it wrong? Worked for me .. (Score:3, Informative)
One, less than a year out of college I got an unsolicited offer from within 50 miles of home. Considering I was now 1500 miles from home, and considering they were offering a 20% raise, I considered it a nobrainer. But my current employer offered me a promotion and 30% raise for me to stay. In the end, I figured longevity at my first job would look better on my resume, and with some apprehension, stayed with my then-current employer. Right decision. 2 more promotions and five years later, I left on my own terms because I didn't like the new projects being handed to the group, and my not liking that wasn't going to change anything.
Then several years ago, I vented at my boss after being asked to give up an already-planned weekend vacation that considering the sacrifices being asked of me and considering the positions and salaries of those around me, I was underpaid. It was not an ultimatum, just a firm statement of opinion. I concluded (in person) that "while this isn't enough for me to go distribute my resume, on the day that I do do that, if you ask me when I first became disenchanted with my job, I will probably say today."
And they apologized, agreed, and offered me a small raise (about 3%) with the promise that this was above and beyond my salary review (due in a couple of months.) And they were good to their word.
There are three things that make me want to work somewhere: 1) The people I work with, 2) The things I am doing, and 3) What I get paid. On any given day, these can be in different order of importance. Whenever I feel any two of them are out of whack, I start looking for a new job. If only one is out of whack, I talk to my manager about it to see if something can be improved. So far, in almost all cases, it could. In those cases when it couldn't, I found a new job and entertained no counter offers, because the counters, I felt, didn't address ALL of my concerns.
Loyalty now is to people, not companies. If I respect my manager I'll try to work with him or her. If I respect my co-workers, I may actually stay because of them. But loyalty to a company is an (unfortunately) outdated concept, because companies are no longer loyal to employees.
And hey, guess what -- I'm not afraid of my managers reading this because I've already had this conversation with them.
What are you worth, really? (Score:2, Informative)
Reality: Because sometimes you're not
Sometimes when you get an offer from another company trying to hire you, they offer you X% more than you are getting (or X% more than current market value). Wow - these people must know that you're worth much more right?
Wrong - Don't let your ego make your career decisions.
You'll enter that new company, and when the time comes for salary reviews you'll be red circled. Your raises will be miniscule until you're in the right salary band/range again. You're only gaining a little in the short term, which doesn't mean much when you consider all the costs and inconveniences that may come with moving to your new job. (This could also happen if you force your company into paying you more than you are really worth because they need you for a specific project and have no choice - then you also have hard feelings to deal with).
Of course, your new employer could just be throwing money around. There was a company in our area that did this to lure employees from other area companies by trumping their old salaries (which were very fair). This kind of hiring is unsustainable (and possibly indicative of their business practices). They've now laid off more than half their staff.
If I can give you any advice at all, it is to TALK to your employer about where you are unhappy (money, job, boss, etc) BEFORE you get another offer and put them on the defensive with "or else" negotiations. You're much more likely to get things resolved in a realistic and amicable manner. We've done this many times, as occasionally we do make mistakes and overlook someone when they should have gotten a raise (or need a change in job, or have a poorly performing boss, etc).
If your employer really is being unfair, find a new job that offers you what you want with a fair salary (and don't look back).
If your offer sounds too good to be true, it most likely is.
(On the flip side, we've made initial offers to potential new employees who've gotten counter offers from their current employer, and then expect us to counter the counter offer. Not going to happen. As a rule, we have a policy to be honest and fair about our initial job offer. We offer the best we've got up front, and if that isn't good enough, too bad. We want people to choose to work here for reasons beyond an over inflated salary.)
I've done it twice...however... (Score:2, Informative)
As an employer... (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Asymmetry of perceptions (Score:5, Informative)
About two years ago, I interviewed for another job, got an offer, and told my current employer that I was leaving. I actually didn't really want a counter-offer.
But they made one anyway. And I ended up taking it. And it was probably the smartest decision I ever made.
The catch is, money wasn't really an issue. There were other things I was unhappy about at work. I wasn't planning on leaving because of money - in fact, the new job was a moderate pay-*cut*, with very small chances of actually paying off financially in the long run.
But I'm just not a money-obsessed person. I'm payed very well, and to me, once you reach the point where you can afford a car and a house and a reasonable amount of entertainment, more money just doesn't matter.
So the counter-offer didn't really involve any money. The only financial component was that the new job offer came the week before we were supposed to be told about our regular raises, and mine was impressive. But the only reason that mattered was because of what it told me about what my management thought of my work, which hadn't been communicated very clearly before that.
So the counter offer was an offer to change some of the things about my job that I was unhappy about. And I ended up taking them up on it.
I couldn't be happier with my job now. And my management seems very happy with me, as well. It's been over two years, so I'm pretty sure that it wasn't just a ruse to keep me long enough to let them fire me.
So... The moral of the story: if you're leaving a job that you're happy with, and that you're getting payed fairly for, counter-offers are probably a bad deal -- for exactly the reasons detailed in the parent post.
On the other hand, if you're unhappy with your job, sometimes the outside offer will get people to take your unhappiness seriously. Sometimes
it's the squeaky wheel that gets the grease.
But finally: never use a job offer as leverage if you don't really intend to take it. I gave notice at my current job, and I was 100 percent serious about leaving. If you make the threat to leave, and you're not serious, you're probably going to wind up unemployed.
-Mark
Re:Do Not Accept - Reasons from the other side... (Score:1, Informative)
A few programmers tried the same approach and ended up out on their asses. The attitude of the company changed drastically.
At the time, the job I was doing, I was extremely underpaid by at least 10K, and that was the minimum. Actually all the admins approached the manager about our concerns. To please re-evaluate our jobs, and job titles. The companies practice was to come up with obscure job titles so they wouldn't have meet any of the market's at the time. (PC Tech, or PC/LAN Admin). After correcting our titles to match the market, Network Systems Admin, they still came across with no pay raise. Even the NT Admins, which is the title they wanted, were told there was NO SUCH TITLE as an NT Admin on any of the HR searches. My response was, uh.. try Monster.com to see the 1000's of NT Admin jobs available.
I was always seen as a threat, because I had a much broader knowledge of computers and networks than my manager (but he knew all the buzzwords and used them CONSTANTLY!). I was admining the NT systems, Unix (Linux/Solaris) systems, and installing a new Cisco switch, converting the network to Gigabit - all this and I was told I refused to WORK with NT, and stated all kinds of lies about my job, all which was denounced by supervisor. So I saved my job for 1 year. Solution - my supervisor was REPOSITIONED to phone support, I was then placed under my Manager. I was then left out of all decision making, and was so-called promoted to Network Admin to upgrade the entire network - then I was fired.
I learned my lesson, to never work for a Manufacturing company again. You are always seen as a liability, never as an asset.
I'm now happily employed by a service company with higher pay, 3 weeks vacation plus COMP TIME! Something that was always promised at the other company but never applied. It different to hear praise instead of scorn. Salary at a manufacturing comapany is an excuse for them to load you down for FREE Overtime - something I was told, we reward on merit! I used to average 450-500 hours of overtime a year, but I was always told - the Network just Runs itself!
Business vs. Personal (Score:3, Informative)
Most workers in the U.S. spend more time tending their business relationships than they do their personal relationships with their friends, their spouses, their children. Not content to simply perform the job for which their time has been leased, they will attempt to mold their (allegedly) off-work hours to suit their employers' whims: go to employer's 'events', favor hanging about with the people with whom they've already spent most of the day working whether or not those people would be the sort they'd normally care to associate, even old friendships gradually will wither and die if a competitor is involved. The worker will even try to mold his psyche to something more to the employer's liking by litening to motivational tapes and buying ghost-written biographies of heads of companies who either managed to inherit wealth or be in the right place to lead a parade they didn't necessarily start.
American business demands much more than just time-and-quality-work for money-and-benefits. Loyalty to the company is sometimes demanded to the point of near-worship. You bet it's personal. At least until the equation reverses and the employee expects a consideration that's not covered, pro or con, in the Policy manual. Then you will hear that "the age of the paternalistic American company is over", "only the interests of the shareholders can be considered", and a lot of other things that translate to: don't make it personal. And yet we get puzzled when some postal worker starts spraying away with a gun or a fast-food worker decides to cut open something other than a carton of fries after the morning Corporate Hymn.
Before the libertarians start piling on about how anti-American this screed sounds, it isn't. What I mean to point out is a wretched, hypocritical duality that is driving at least some people bonkers in the U.S.: you can't give someone only what you like of the old-style Japanese culture with its worker loyalty without the other part, which was "we hardly fire anybody and we'll take care of you". Business can't just take what it wants from Column A and ignore Column B and expect to maintain a sane workforce. There's a balance that's being ignored. Each individual business needs to decide how personal things are allowed to be, and it needs to be that personal both ways, and not just with expectations flowing in one direction.
I've had greatly rewarding business relationships of both kinds: ones with clearly defined, rigid limits and parameters for major multinationals and ones with more closely held local companies where the employess could go out and carouse with the owners. I've either been smart or lucky because I've negotiated certain hard limits and exclusions on my time in advance; my skill set is sufficiently in demand that I can do that. Some companies were frankly aghast that I held them to those pre-negotiated limits even though they'd advertised themselves as having had "family values" (isn't it funny how so many that yell "family" the loudest are those who will take you away from it the most?) I countered that perhaps I should start looking elsewhere if they were unhappy with what I'd negotiated; nobody's ever taken me up on that.
As far as accepting counter-offers goes: I agree with those who have said that the only loyalty in business is that flowing from employee to employer. Regarding the other direction, with few exceptions:
Trust is just a name on a bank.