Is it Wrong to Accept an Employment Counter-Offer? 1048
An Anonymous Coward asks: "I was happily working away at a low-paying but otherwise good job I'd had for several months, after taking a huge pay cut when the dot.bomb bubble burst. Then a recruiter contacted me with a very nice potential position - I interviewed and received an offer with a 50% increase in pay, everything else nearly the same. When I received the offer and decided I was interested, I broke the news to my current employer - to my surprise they extended a counter-offer with a matching salary, thereby eliminating my only reason for considering the other job. However, I talked to some friends and checked the web for ideas and realized that there are a *lot* of ppl out there who believe you should never accept a counter-offer. They make some good points, and there are a lot of those pages - but on the web popularity breeds increased popularity, in a self-feeding cycle, so I'm wondering if the numbers are skewed unrealistically. Is it really that rare to do well by accepting a counter-offer? Do Slashdot readers have experience with counter-offers from present employers, positive or negative?"
Do what's best for you. (Score:2, Insightful)
Why not earlier (Score:5, Insightful)
you are your own man (Score:1, Insightful)
Look at it this way...you look out for yourself...if a company decided to lay you off..they will...if a company decides to pay you more...why not? If you really enjoy your current working environment and they are willing to pay you more...go for it...who knows what you will expect at the other place. In the end, like I said, you have to look out for yourself.
Limated Experance (Score:4, Insightful)
This probably wont happen to you, but you have to ask yourself why your last pay rise wasn't 50% if the you company is prepared to offer you this now.
Changes in perception (Score:2, Insightful)
With the way IT jobs are going... (Score:5, Insightful)
That's also a damn fine vote of confidence from your boss. I'd celebrate this weekend if I were you.
Re:Why not earlier (Score:4, Insightful)
Personal experience (Score:5, Insightful)
Because otherwise you will be the first on their list when they are looking to get rid on someone to cut costs. You are not only disloyal ( not that companies are ever loyal to you ) but you are probably making more than others doing the same work.
Trust me, it's a bad game to play unless you are willing to accept that your employer will always be wondering if you are going to jumo ship again.
I would have to say it depends... (Score:5, Insightful)
Never accepted one (Score:5, Insightful)
Never forget that these companies, will fire you even if you think the job is great and the people are great, they will fire you or.. rightsize you, if money is tight. They are in it for survival, and so are you.
I have to say this, but your loyalty should be to yourself and your family, not to anonymous shareholders or board of directors that never have lunch with you.
Take pride in your work, do it well, but do it for yourself, not the company.
Take it to your employer before resigning (Score:3, Insightful)
It is appropriate to point out to your employer
that you potentially could be making more
somewhere else, but you should do this before
you accept another offer, IMO.
If your employer says no way, then resign and
stick to it. If you accept a new offer, then
resign, and then change your mind due to a
counter-offer, you are breaking your word.
If the employer cares about you, kindly
pointing out that you can make significantly
more elsewhere is all it takes. If your
current employer waits until they get a true
resignation to do something about it, your
employer is the one with the problem.
silly (Score:5, Insightful)
hmm (Score:2, Insightful)
If there are going to be problems generated by the fact that you thought about leaving, then don't stay.
I know I could tell my boss "hey, this sucks, I want out." and he would understand, and we could talk about it, but I've had jobs that the fact that I even THOUGHT about leaving would cause problems.
The bigger the company, the easier it is to stay I think, too. Since there's generally more of a personal stake for managers, and people feel closer to the company.
That's my take on it. It's all about how it will affect your boss's relationship with you.
Respect.... (Score:5, Insightful)
And do you have enough of it towards your boss to give your boss the chance to retain you?
Seems only fair to give the person who hired you the chance to counter in good faith. By that I mean accept the counter and evaluate it honorably, don't give lip service about it. If it is a good offer be prepared to take it.
Take it! (Score:4, Insightful)
Depends on your situation (Score:4, Insightful)
You should have tried to get a raise first. That would have cleared a lot of things up. But that said, you didn't, so...
If you are an important asset to the company that can't be easily replaced, you like your job, and your company trusts you, you might be able to get away with staying. If not you should be very hesitant.
The problem is that you've already signalled to your company that you are thinking about leaving. If you're going to stay, you should assure them that money was the only problem, you made a mistake by not talking to them first, and you won't repeat that mistake in the future. Otherwise expect that they are going to start looking for your replacement immediately, and as soon as they find her that 50% increase will be meaningless.
Don't listen to anyone who tells you definitively one way or another what to do. Only you know your specific situation, and how trustworthy your boss is.
Get it in writing... (Score:4, Insightful)
My advice: this is a great time to visit a labor lawyer and write up a termination contract. Just put something down about your termination on a "non-performance" basis. This way, if they decide to fire you without documentation of poor performance, then you will have a termination clause (just ask for like 6 months of pay or something like that).
There would be no reason for your current employer not to sign the contract since they are supposedly matching the offer based on your performance. It guarantees them that you will perform as well in the future and it guarantees you that your job won't disappear without a hefty severance.
Don't get too hung up on principle (Score:5, Insightful)
In otherwords if you accepted the job for $40k and they know you are worth $100k, most companies aren't going to walk over and say "you know, you are underpaid, here's $60k a year more." No, they will say "great job, here's a $5k a year raise!
But when it comes down to you demanding more, or telling them you are leaving they will pay you what they need to in order to keep you.
Too many people look at employment as a personal relationship, but it is much better for everyone to remember that it is a bussiness relationship for both the employee and employer.
I Generally Would Not (Score:2, Insightful)
I've only once even *entertained* the idea of considering a counter-offer. And in that instance I did accept it. But the reason for the impending job move was *not* financial at all. The current job had not been offering me the kind of job-growth opportunities I wanted. Financially: it was about even-up. My current employer understood completely. Understood so well, in fact, that they decided that giving me that opportunity would aid their own business growth. So the next day (completely unexpectedly, btw) they made me a counter-offer I couldn't refuse.
If it had been purely a financial thing, I would've never considered it. In fact: since I went from hourly to salaried, I actually took a pay *cut*.
Re:Take the Counter (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why not earlier (Score:3, Insightful)
I've been in the position of asking for a raise for year and not getting it. Then when faced with the prospect of my leaving the company (and the company loosing productivity and having to train new staff) the company "somehow" managed to afford a 20% raise for me.
If your company thinks they can keep you without giving you a raise, they won't.
Re:Do Not Accept (Score:5, Insightful)
It's amazing how they felt that my expressing misgivings about my position in the company invoked a nice counter offer and a simultaneous feeling that I was "arrogant", a "loose cannon", and "unmanageable".
They really needed me to stay, and I was not even using that as leverage. I was simply stating some misgivings I had about how things were going, and they offered more money to keep me on. Then they fired me.
At two different companies, I was in charge of a team of programmers and pretty close to the offer decision process. At both of them, the feeling was that a counter offer was a temporary resort, and that cheaper labor was surely available.
I'll place my two cents on the "don't take it" bet.
Re:Why not earlier (Score:5, Insightful)
This is an excellent point. Furthermore, are they willing to give you back pay at the new rate, to make up for having underpaid you all that time?
There are several problems with taking such a counter-offer:
one - you can only do this once or twice before they stop giving you pay raises, and each iteration burns a bridge at a potentially new and exciting job, with new and better opportunities for you.
two - if the recruiter gets burned (she or he will lose their commision [likely 30% of your new salary if they're an independent headhunter] if you take the counter-offer) you lose an ally if and when you really do want to switch jobs (you can bet they'll put a black mark in your file, and it will affect the service you get next time around.
three - you'll still be in the same position you were before. No new opportunities, no new challenges, just more money (for now).
four - you're in the same position for which your employer knows they can get people to fill at your old rate. Your days at your new pay level are likely numbered, and your odds of further pay raises are tiny. Your odds of further pay raises at your new position after six months or a year, provided you are doing a good job, are much better.
five - your employer will, at some level, feel they've been strongarmed by you. This will adversely affect your long-term relationship with them regardless.
six - you should go to the recruiter, tell them about the counter offer, and see if they can't give you a little more. I wouldn't necessarilly get the two sides in a bidding war (that might well leave your new employer with a bad taste in their mouth), but if they can outdo the counter-offer by a little bit, it might go a long way toward making your decision easier.
IMHO if all things are equal, take the new job. The disadvantages I listed above are signficant, and there really would need to be a compelling reason to ignore them and take the counter offer, and having equal pay and the (quite possibly faux) comfort of not changing jobs isn't nearly enough IMHO.
Of course, this advice is worth every penny you paid for it.
Why you should accept a counter-offer (Score:5, Insightful)
day on, your loyalty will always be in question.
If you are valuable to the company, loyalty isn't an issue. If you
aren't, you should worry anyway.
When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is
loyal and who is not.
See above.
When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you.
See above.
Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow
to your personal pride; you were bought.
You're bought no matter where you go. You think that CEOs aren't
bought? They are, and they're a lot more successful at it than anyone
reading slashdot.
Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from? All companies
have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed. Is it your
next raise early?
Sounds good to me. And the company sees that as real money. They prefer to delay expenses when possible.
Your company will immediately start looking for a new person at a
cheaper price.
Again, only if you aren't all that valuable to start with.
The same circumstances that now cause you to consider a change will
repeat themselves in the future, even if you accept a counteroffer.
So in the meanwhile you've made more money. And maybe you get another
counteroffer the next time you get fed up.
Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of
voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is
extremely high.
Again, so what?
Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your
co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal
satisfaction of peer group acceptance.
I accepted a counter-offer. Not clear if my co-workers know, but my
relationship with them gas been fine. Again, if you are worth the
money, no one in his right mind will object to you getting it.
What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign
before they will give you what you are worth?
They're all like that. Get over it.
Counter offer (Score:2, Insightful)
I really think that whether or not you accept a counter offer depends on the nature of the company you work for. If you think that the belief system of the company is based around these ideas [jobsontheweb.com], then maybe it would be best not to stay. I have issues with almost all of these points. These points are based on a cut-throat enviroment based on suspision and distrust. I have found that this is generally *not* the case in an enviromnent where the company's success is dependant on creative and happy employees.
I don't know anyone who wants to work for boss pinhead. But If you don't have a corporate environment based on suspicion and distrust, then I don't see that accepting a counter offer under the following conditions would be all that bad:
1. Did you *ask* for a raise or promotion?
If not, then you don't know
2. are you generally happy where you are working?
3. are you advancing your career reasonably?
4. how do you get along with your co-workers? your bosses?
these are some simple metrics. The decision is of course based on a good deal of factors.
What about Counter-Counter offers? (Score:4, Insightful)
Ive accepted a counter offer before: My current employer at the time matched what a startup had offered me, and I accepted: no need to switch jobs or anything.
They asked me if I was unhappy, I said no, not really, it was just that I was surprised that I was offered so much money, and I would much rather stay where I was (especially with the 25% raise).
I say counter-offers are great.
When I broke the news, well they bumped the number up again another 30%, making it over a 50% raise since before all the haggling began. My current employer, being a govt contractor, couldn't go that high (the govt has limits on how much you can pay employees) so I took the counter-counter offer in the end.
It turns out the whole thing was very enlighting on how low the ceiling was for me at my old position, even though I liked the job/people/etc, you have to go where the money is.
Re:Why not earlier (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Why not earlier (Score:5, Insightful)
This is unfortunate, but true. Good corporations will adjust compensation proactively, because they've just lost some of your productivity to deal with this problem...
Recruitment agencies' zeroth reason ... (Score:5, Insightful)
0. We don't get commision if you stay in your old job!
Written by a headhunter.... (Score:3, Insightful)
As for that "10 reasons" link, it seems to have been written by a headhunter, to dissuade people being relocated to stay. In other words it is completely biased against counter offers cause it would cost the headhunter money if people accepted them.
Re:What about Counter-Counter offers? (Score:3, Insightful)
You have todo what makes you happy, shiny things does not improve your life.
The short answer is no. (Score:3, Insightful)
They are flattering when you get them, but step back and look at your situation critically. Consider things like these:
- Is an increase in your present company with no other changes in the environment going to make you happy?
- Maybe the place you're going to has better job security over your present job?
- Are there other factors that are making you look for another position other than money?
You also have to consider the fact that you have now telegraphed your "dislike" for your present company. Your present employer isn't going to be thrilled that you're leaving and you may find that it is difficult to work there going forward.
I won't deny that it's a tough decision, but the safe route IMHO is to say no and move on.
Why you should not accept the counter IN THIS CASE (Score:5, Insightful)
I started my own consulting business for that very reason. When people ask me to lower my rates, I politely say, sorry, but that's what I'm worth. If you think you can find others, you're more than welcome to. Some walk, some don't. Yet, today, I've got an international client base and billables over $350K per person. It's gotta be working some way. Mercedes-Benz don't drop their prices below a certain point. That's the price of quality.
OTOH, as a guy who started and sold a dot com, I can also tell you that you should have indicated some concerns BEFORE you began looking. That gives the employer a chance to re-evaluate. Sadly, in the States, you could get fired right there. Businesses here suck about loyalty.
On a side note: I always made it a rule to tell employees that they should ALWAYS come to me with issues. No one works for me forever, so if you're not happy, that's fine. Either we can make you happy, or _I_ can help you get the next job. Who knows where you'll be in 5 years? I might need your help then! It's always worked for me, and I showed the same respect to my employees and teams as well.
Rememnber, it's all about mutual respect.
Re: Why not earlier (Score:2, Insightful)
> Don't be so naive.
Face it: his boss just admitted that he or she has been paying him less than he's worth to the company. Is that the kind of culture where he should want to work?
Re:Asymmetry of perceptions (Score:4, Insightful)
Perception of value (Score:2, Insightful)
We assign value to our employees because we recognize that our business depends on having skilled, dependable, professional people.
We assign value to our employees because we have a certain task that needs to be done a certain way in a certain amount of time for a certain cost.
A perfect example of a firm that follows the latter school of thought would be the Professional Services arm of EMC. In my time there, I found that institutionally, they regarded their employees as distateful things that they had to have around. There was a high amount of demand on the employee to accomplish tasks in a certain fashion on a certain timetable. The employee's input on that timetable or execution process was not very highly sought after. Employees were laid off, while workload was increased in an effort to maximize profits. While maximizing profits is not a Bad Thing, attempting to do it in this fashion is not wise, long term. The result is that the majority of the folks employed there are looking to jump ship: Contractors were hired on at a third of their contracting weekly take -- their other choice was to simply have their contract cancelled (this, of course, at the same time that the job market was heading downward. In this environment, the employer has very little regard for the employee, and is a pretty awful place to work: If you try to leave you will be coerced either with money, or with an implied threat of your new employer (who happens to be an EMC customer) getting trouble if they hire you -- no matter if your contact with that client was through EMC or not, and no matter if there was any teaming agreement in place.
The other end of that spectrum is the company which has more long-term vision: They are also interested in maximizing profits, but they realize that their operations will run more smoothly if they reciprocate some of the loyalty that they expect from their employees. In this instance, the employer might make a demand of you (for example, sacrifice 18 hours of a weekend in a data centre), however, they will realize that this is a hardship and rather than just have you suck it up, give you something in return (a few days off, for example).
If the company has no loyalty to you, expect that every time you need something, you'll have to complain loudyly. If, however, they realize that a happy employee will be a very productive one, they will nearly always treat you fairly and rarely put you in a position where you need to make demands
Re:Take the Counter (Score:5, Insightful)
Most employers like that.
Bzzt! Wrong. I'm a manager and it is not so simple. Some corporations treat offer/counteroffers very maturely, others don't.
It also depends on the employee. If you are a trooper, you have proven with the offer that you were underpaid and I'll raise your salary and leave it at that.
If you are a whiner, all you have shown is that you are an underpaid whiner. Since I need you to complete the current project I'll make a counteroffer, but I'll start searching for your replacement right away.
Re:Personal experience (Score:3, Insightful)
This has nothing to do with loyalty. It's business. Any boss should understand that - business is an employer/employee relationship as well as it's a company/company relationship.
Any boss will respect you for asking what you're worth. If you don't - you're the naive nerd at the back of the room.
You're not hired because of your pretty eyes, loyalty and what not, you're hired because of your skills. If you deliver, you're certainly not the first to go when things get tough.
It's common tactics to hint your boss that a competing company is offering you a larger salary, just to make him come with a counter. For nothing else, then just to check out your own market value. If he doesn't counter, then you may very well sit in a spot where you'll be the first to go when things get tough. Loyalty goes a long way, sure, but the almighty buck goes even further. Nobody is ever going to say "Aw.. You disappoint me now" and really mean it, it's all about the money.
Company loyalty died with the HP merger (Score:2, Insightful)
No company expects loyalty when they aren't loyal. So don't refuse the counter offer on the grounds they will look for revenge. They won't. Nobody gives you a 50% raise then fires you. It just doesn't make economic sense. And co-workers won't hate you because you make more money, they would do the same in your position.
What it comes down to is where you would like working better. If you like your current job and the people you work with stay. If you think the new company looks like a better place to work then go there.
Re:Changes in perception (Score:2, Insightful)
I wouldn't take this into consideration at all. First, if he moves to a new job, the new employer may also always wonder if he were looking for a new job (depending on how quickly he accepted), so you have a very similar perception transferred from the old employer to the new employer. Second, the perception of "not being part of the team anymore" depends more on what you do with the job you have today and people's perception of your attitude with that. You can look for a new job and be committed 100% to the one you have. Then your coworkers would be less likely to notice or assume that you're looking. Of course you have to BE committed not LOOK like you're committed... most people can tell the difference.
Never say never (Score:4, Insightful)
There are all sorts of things to look at when deciding to accept/reject a counter offer. Most importantly, take advantage of the fact that you now have a choice.
One is: Just how good is your current employer? If they spuriously gave you a 30% pay cut on the premise of the dot-com bust, are they likely to do it again? Are they willing to give you a written promise that you will keep your new job/salary for a long period of time? How stable is the company if it had to give it's employees a 30-50% pay cut? If this is actually an issue, are they willing to offer you a golden parachute? More to the point: Just how much do you trust your current company (or -- for that matter -- the company that made the first offer).
You also have to consider peer-acceptence whether you stay or go. If this presages a general increase in wages, your peers may love you for what you are setting in motion.
You may want to talk to your peers. They may have info on your current company that influences your go/no-go decision. You may (or may not) want to get into the details of 50%, but you can probably let them know that you now have offers from another company and your boss, and you need to make a choice. If nothing else, they'll find out when you've left.. Why not do them the honor of letting them know now.
Also: consider that the "never accept a counter-offer" pages are possibly put up by head-hunters who only make money if they get your head. ... ... ...)
They don't actually care about your career. They only care about the money that they get for placing you (and then for placing your replacement -- and then replacing that replacement
Be honest and try to plan ahead (Score:3, Insightful)
My first time looking for a new job, a counteroffer was possible. My reasons for leaving were general dissatisfaction and lack of appreciation. I got an offer, came to my boss and laid all the cards on the table. He agreed to match the offer AND to address my other issues. The company improved and I got paid better. Next time around, my reasons for leaving were lost trust in a different manager and a belief that they were phasing out my department. This time, the counteroffer was again extended, but it was never an issue. I refused and am happily at the new job.
Ask for a raise first, THEN threaten to leave (Score:3, Insightful)
If you come straight out and say you think you deserve a little more, the company may not be as likely to respond favorably, but they also won't treat you like an employee that will be ready to bolt at the first sign of a marginally better prospect. Loyalty may be a lost thing to the big corporations, but it does make a difference to your immediate superiors, and generally they're the ones that have the say in whether you do get that raise or promotion.
But hell, if they turn you down, by all means shop around. Personally, I'm always on the look-out, but it's got to be significantly better than what I have before I'd entertain actually leaving.
Are you a person of your word? (Score:1, Insightful)
But, it's your call.
Re: Why not earlier (Score:4, Insightful)
Face it: his boss just admitted that he or she has been paying him less than he's worth to the company. Is that the kind of culture where he should want to work?
Would you prefer to work at a company who spewed money at anyone for no reason? If they paid 100% tips at restraunts; A company that insisted upon paying double rent, and buying office supplies they dont use?
Be serious: the company that pays you only the rate that they must to retain youre services is a company that plans to survive. (Assuming a free market). Thats a good company to be at.
Re:Asymmetry of perceptions (Score:5, Insightful)
I've worked with people who left a company only to return after a few weeks or even years for roughly the same pay and position; this could ONLY happen in an environment where the individuals involved trusted each other.
Counter offers are kludges, and should be avoided by everyone. I'm certain that somewhere down the road I will be expected to offer a disgruntled employee more money to stay; rest assured, through nods and winks and nervous tics that I will clearly imply that my heart and mind aren't into the deal. If there is something which was made a person unhappy with their current job, no amount of money can clear those up. Take the original offer, godspeed, and hey, while you're going, here's my resume.
I wouldn't... (Score:1, Insightful)
That said, my former company took great care of us financially. The hours sucked... but after 4 months, two of which were 60-80 hours on a big project (completed on time, under budget), I received a 10% raise (after getting 10% over my previous job just walking in the door). Six months later, they made me a "team leader" to the tune of another 17%. Unfortunately, they were also a ".Com" and started heading downhill fast.
My previous job to that... if you busted your ass all year you'd get 3.1% raise, if you did nothing all year you'd get 3.0% raise. Whoopee.. My current job, perhaps more "results" based, but to the tune of a maximum 3.5% raise. I've been here a little over a year, and have done some cursory "looking" - nothing serious yet, just watching the market.. but if the right thing comes along...
My opinion.. if you were *that* valuable to the company that they don't want to lose you, then why did they not reward you along the way? And if they are suddenly willing to give you 50% more, thats bascially the equivalent of saying "we really don't want to pay you what you are worth".
And, yes.. just wait, they'll find some other sucker who they can get to work your job for less than it is worth, hire him and fire you.
Me... if some other company is willing to pay me 50% more for my services.. then *obviously* they think that I will add that amount of *value* to their workforce. And, just as obviously, my current job was just out to get my talents as cheap as possible.
Re:Do Not Accept - Reasons from the other side... (Score:5, Insightful)
Why tell them about the new job? (Score:2, Insightful)
Go with the deal you made if possible (Score:2, Insightful)
Also, if you renege word does get around. I will stick with the deal I made on an interview, though I will tell the new company about changes in circumstances.
I once had an interview, liked the job, and we set a tentative price. When I got back to work my boss called me in -- he'd wrangled an early performance raise (3 months early & more than I had expected) plus an additional raise as a retention inducement. I was now making just $1 a year less than what I'd told the new place I'd work for.
At this point I was going to make the move anyway, I had made the deal and intended to stick to it, though I'd certainly tell them what had changed. The new folks called -- they'd verified my credentials, made the offer we agreed on. I told the personel worker bee what had happenned and as I was about to accept she slammed the phone down! I called her boss -- told him what happenned. He asked when I'd start -- I told him that his employee's behavior absolved my concience & I wouldn't want to work for them.
Nearly 10 years later I had a great phone interview with the same company, but in another state. At the end of the interview they all but offerred me the job. I never heard back. It took a couple of phone calls before anybody would talk to me -- I was told that they had a black-list. If you ever turned down an offer you were put on the black-list and nobody, in any division, was allowed to hire you. Employees who quit were also put on the list.
BTW: The company went down the tubes long ago.
Exercise for the student: Why did this company go out of business?
Re:Why not earlier (Score:2, Insightful)
I've managed IT staff for years (mostly hardware/network staff) so what follows is the same advice I always give out. If you have a problem with your current job, be it salary, hours, assignment, whatever, talk to your supervisor or manager and try to get the problem resolved. If the company is unable or unwilling to resolve the problem, you owe it to yourself to start looking elseware.
People hate changing jobs and interviewing is a pain in the ass. So once you start looking for a new job you are an ex-employee, it's just a matter of time before you leave. And the reason you should never except a counter offer is those same reasons that started you looking in the first place will return. In your case, senior management will look at that 50% pay increase and see it as a reason to reduce or eliminate future pay increases. They won't see it as giving you the salary you deserved in the first place. It's only a matter of time before you're underpaid and looking again.
So take the new job. Wish everyone well at the current place (don't burn any bridges) and enjoy your new life.
Re: Why not earlier (Score:3, Insightful)
> Would you prefer to work at a company who spewed money at anyone for no reason?
That's hardly what I suggested, as even the most casual reader must realize.
> Be serious: the company that pays you only the rate that they must to retain youre services is a company that plans to survive.
Which is why he should turn down the counteroffer: to send a message that "the rate they must pay me to retain my services" is "what I'm worth". They lowballed him (in more than one sense of the word), so let them suffer.
Re:Never accepted one (Score:5, Insightful)
I work at a small ISP. I'm in a high enough position here to know a bit about the finacial shape of the company. If a recruiter came along and asked me to leave for me to even consider would have to be a very very good offer, but supposing I did and my current boss offered to match I would take it in a heart beat.
At my company there are no shareholders and stock prices. Just an owner. Actually an owner who is very interested in what I do and respects my opinion on techincal issues that she doesn't understand. She is here everyday, dealing with customers and helping employees and just taking a value in everyone.
So in short I don't make as much money as some people in the industry but I don't have to worry about losing my job. And I really enjoy working here. I can't see my boss holding the want for a little more money against me, maybe I'm delusional but I think I have found a 'job nirvana'
I had both good and bad experience. (Score:3, Insightful)
So basically, if you are looking for stability, and want to risk it in a startup that offers good salary so you they can start up properly with the good people, it's a risk, and depending on how much you are willing to risk and where you live, there are tools that you can use to protect yourself.
The other thing when you stay at a company that makes a counter-offer, some CEOs are dumbasses, especially in startup. They will take the fact that you looked elsewhere personnally "what, you think I am not treating you well? you think blablablabla? how dare you!", and they will always have that little irrationnal something caught between how professionnal you are and their judgment, some (very few) bosses understand this and respond in a good way, but most are very idiotic about it. That's one thing I like about some bigger companies, if you did a good job and leave because you got better pay, they reajust, and offer you to come back if it doesn't succeed, that way you'll have gained extra experience and if you get back chances are you'll be a more stable ressource and etc etc and they will rely on you more.
One thing you can do to be sure when you get a counteroffer, it shows that he really wants to keep you and you can ask more, like a one year contract so that way if shit breaks loose, you'll still get 1 year of salary for sure and he won't be able to fire you under normal circumstances. One thing I often saw is the CEO acts like if nothing happened and it's normal life going, he hires somebody with a different function but can overlap yours and ends up kicking you out. This is very common and "buisness is buisness" they'll say.
I also had a good experience going into another company with a bit higher salary, but it was people I already knew for a long time and all, so I guess this wouldn't count
Re:Do Not Accept (Score:4, Insightful)
the last time, I said, forget it.. this is BS.
I also worked for Goldman sachs. A friend of mine quit, but they counter offered. The next round of layoffs, he was gone.
If they really cared, they wouldn't wait until you quit to counter offer..
Don't accept.
Golden Rule: When you are getting ready to quit, you should say "no" to any counter offers .
Re:With the way IT jobs are going... (Score:3, Insightful)
Counter-offers are made usually just because the employer needs the body and its cheaper to give an instant raise than it is to find a new body IMHO.
Re:What about Counter-Counter offers? (Score:3, Insightful)
Money may not buy you happiness, but it does allow you to pursue the things that DO make you happy.
Re:Foolish! (Score:3, Insightful)
How is that self-destructive? You think the company really cares? Yeah, they wanted to hire you but they have 10,000 other resumes to find another person just as qualified. It's business, if you choose to not do business with another party they have no right to know. Sometimes it helps, especially if you are going to do business with them in the future, but so what? It's a courteous, respected response.
You mean (-1, Disloyalty) (Score:4, Insightful)
-er thinks "We can't lose him right now."
-er: "We're prepared to match that salary if you stay with us."
-ee: "Okay then, I'll stay."
-er thinks "Whew! That bought us some time, but this guy is just after money, so no doubt he'll be squeezing us for more later. I'd better start looking for his replacement now."
Being willing to jump ship for a better offer is not an impressive show of loyalty. Remember that employers ideally want idiot-savants who are brilliant at their work, but neither know their value nor seek their own best interests. They don't want people who are primarily influenced by money, they want people who are easily influenced by "good management" (i.e. manipulation and security/benefit shell games).
Re:Do Not Accept (Score:5, Insightful)
If you take a counter-offer, you won't have to give up benefits at your current employer that you may have accrued over many years. 5 weeks vacation, becoming vested in a company retirement plan... These things take a a lot of time to work up to, and they're worth consideration.
"Unmanageable" label (Score:4, Insightful)
It's amazing how they felt that my expressing misgivings about my position in the company invoked a nice counter offer and a simultaneous feeling that I was "arrogant", a "loose cannon", and "unmanageable".
Those are the best qualities to have - it just means that Management has recognized you are doing something smart. They like to be the only ones doing the screwing, you screw 'em back and you're "unmanageable". You know what I say? Good! I'd rather be "unmanageable" than some clueless putz that gets it up the ass every day.
Re:Do what's best for you. (Score:2, Insightful)
All things being equal, that's a sensible suggestion. Unfortunately, the well-said comments of others about what happens after the counteroffer are nearly universal. If you really KNOW you will not have the near-leaving held against you, it might work to stay. You've got to ask your self, though - "Why wasn't I worth this much to them 6 minutes ago?". I know, they must try to hold down costs, and only an idiot pays more than he needs to. However, their judgement is suspect if you are paid enough below what they value you that you are willing to leave for the differential.
Once you realize that's going on, you know that there's more wrong. I rode Moore's law applied to salary starting at slave wages from fall 1995 until summer 2000. When I saw a the company wasn't sound, I started looking. Now, I'm paid a healthy percentage of the value I generate, on the average (some weeks, I'm not worth much, other weeks, I make up for it), and the only way to get me out of this job is to offer me a position as an astronaut.
I've never seen anybody last more than a couple months after accepting a retention counteroffer. I HAVE seen people carefully use counteroffers to get a better departure offer, but that can be a dangerous game. - - The way to get a counteroffer-like raise is to inexplicably come to work overdressed and take a full-length lunch, without explaining. If you would get a counteroffer on starting to leave, you're likely to get most of it by gentle suggestion. DO NOT go asking for a counteroffer to prevent your looking.
"chasing the money" means 10%, not 50% (Score:4, Insightful)
But when you're in the 50% range, *nobody* will challenge you for putting the money first. (Well, I've known a few asshole bosses who would try to guilt you, but nobody else would give them any credence.) That's too much of a jump to ignore.
Unfortunately, the same thing applies to counteroffers. If your boss offers you a 10% counteroffer, it's easy to justify as compensation for some thin raises during the past few years. If your boss offers you a 50% counteroffer, you'll soon be resentful because you'll realize how much you were underpaid before, your peers may become resentful, etc. It's a bad situation all around.
Re: Why not earlier (Score:4, Insightful)
But it still has validity. In order to make a profit the company gets someone to pay them more for a product or service than it costs to provide that product or service. Obviously if this can be done, then on average, the various expenses (labour, capiol, etc.) that are required to provide the product or service have a value to the company that is slightly greater than the price that the company must pay to receive them from whoever is providing them.
If one of those expenses increases in price (for example the workers get a raise) then either the company will have less profit or they will have to raise their prices to reflect their increased costs.
Thus in some cases, the profit can be though of as coming from "underpaying" for some of the necessary expenses.
Hunh? (Score:3, Insightful)
Of course you should be honest with both involved parties - tell the people who extended the offer to you why you didn't take it, for example. That is good business ethics. Feeling obligated when you aren't is just silly.
Something seems wrong (Score:2, Insightful)
don't encourage counter-offers (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Take the Counter -- NOTHING BUT BIAS (Score:2, Insightful)
bkr
Agreed... (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately, we don't live in the ideal world, there is no such thing a professionalism in modern business and people WILL take it personal. Because of that, you HAVE to treat the situation as a personal relationship and not a business relationship. Yes this is sad but, unfortunately, a fact of life. What you have done is equivalent to going to your significant other and stated, I've been seeing someone else and I would like to end our relationship. At that point, there is no turning back. Oh, the other will beg you to stay, say that things will change and ask you to try to work it out and be one of those rare couples that use this as a way to make your relationship stronger. However, while you think it's all behind you, there will be hidden resentment, hurt feelings, feelings of insecurity and sometime down the line YOUR the one who is left as they have gone out and started looking for YOUR replacement.
As I said, while this may be a very sad and a very cynical commentary, it's simply human nature and a fact of life. Take the new job and remind yourself of the reasons you left in the first place. I'm sure that if you looked deep enough you'd discover that money wasn't the ONLY reason you wanted to leave. Even if the new job doesn't work out, you'll be better off in the long run.
The 10 Reasons are not Well-Reasoned (Score:3, Insightful)
1. You have now made your employer aware that you are unhappy. From this day on, your loyalty will always be in question.
Possibly true. But in a company run by grown-ups, you're supposed to let management know that you're unhappy. You are not supposed to whine about it, but you can state, in a reasonable way, that you are dissatisfied. That's what you do when you ask for a raise. And only foolish, childish managers will be shocked (Shocked!) to learn that some employees don't love the company. Of course, not everybody's a grown up.
2. When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is loyal and who is not.
See above. And, they will also remember who was good enough to receive an offer of a fifty percent raise, and who was considered valuable enough to be retained with a similar raise.
3. When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you.
Perhaps. There are no guarantees in life.
4. Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow to your personal pride; you were bought.
This is ridiculous. We are bought with our salaries. It is how the system works, and it's a reasonable and honorable exchange: work for pay. If you do something unethical because you've been offered lots of money, that's different. Volunteering is great if you are independently wealthy. Most are not. I've allowed myself to be bought away from the life of leisure I prefer: The company told me that if I write programs they'll give me money.
5. Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from? All companies have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed. Is it your next raise early?
Could be. One of the wage and salary guidelines most companies follow is to get and retain the people they need for the least amount of money. That's why you negotiate salaries and push a bit.
6. Your company will immediately start looking for a new person at a cheaper price.
Doubtful. If I were going to do that I would probably just let the person take the new job and then start looking. If the position was so vital that I couldn't do that, I would consider making a counter-offer to retain somebody who already knew the company and the job.
7. The same circumstances that now cause you to consider a change will repeat themselves in the future, even if you accept a counteroffer.
True in some cases. But in the post we're discussing, the only difference between the jobs was money.
8. Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is extremely high.
As others have noted, I want to know the details on these statistics.
9. Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal satisfaction of peer group acceptance.
Word does not always get out. And I personally still respect one of our sysadmins who stayed with our company on the basis of a counter offer. He's been here for five years since then, and everything is fine. I'm not an idiot and neither are my co-workers. The guy is good, he has a family to feed and parents to take care of, another company offered him money, and our company offered more to keep him. They made a good move. Management and staff knew why he was going to leave, because they also use money to purchase goods and services for themselves and their families.
10. What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign before they will give you what you are worth?
A normal one. Not that the person who posted this couldn't have asked for more money sooner, obviously, but he didn't. It does not sound as though he was asking and asking and then finally, after many months of trying to get what he was worth, had to threaten to leave. He didn't know what he was worth to the company and only found out when he tried to leave.
Management may feel strong-armed in this situation, and they may resent him. Maybe it is better to leave. Also, variety and change are good. But that top ten list was weak.
Re:Why not earlier (Score:2, Insightful)
That's not entirely true. Companies pay what they think it will cost to keep you or someone equivalent to you. They aren't going to suddenly realize that someone like you costs much more just because you got another offer. At best they'll give you a raise to keep you while they examine their options. They'll keep you only if that review leads them to believe that you contribute enough value to the company to merit the new salary.
If you accept the counter offer, plan on being early to work religiously for the next few months, and plan on working late during that period frequently enough that your boss notices. Re-demonstrate your loyalty, in other words.
And one more thing: Don't plan on doing this twice at the same company.
Sometimes quitting gives your boss ammo to keep u (Score:2, Insightful)
I took one counteroffer and did not regret it. There was another counteroffer (evil HR scenario) that I did not take and I did not regret it. You weigh the risks and make the best business decision for you.
Either way you take risks (old company lays you off for 'lack of loyalty', new company lays you off for 'lack of seniority', and so on). Make it a business decision and take the best return on your (time) investment while minimizing risks.
But is that sad? (Score:5, Insightful)
How many corporations do layoffs in the interests of boosting stock value? That is the ultimate in tossing away personal relationships in the interest of the business. Surely sometimes a business has to cut staff to save the business but there are countless times where a profitable company cuts employees in the interests of increasing shareholder value.
It just seems to me that this immense detachment from personal relationships in business might really be doing us a lot of harm in the long run.
Re:Like a counteroffer for a G/F? (Score:2, Insightful)
Don't know what it is? I hope I never work for you!
Re:Reminiscent of the good old days (Score:3, Insightful)
When the relationship between manager and employee is good (manager is supportive, employee is ambitious, manager stands up for and respresents those he manages), raises rarely need to be requested. A good manager will already be pushing the higher-ups to give you a raise. If your manager-employee relationship is good, but no mention of a raise or fighting for one comes from your boss, then they probably feel you are not doing above-average work in your position.
If the relationship is not good (neutral or negative, doesn't matter) with your manager, you'll have to fight for a raise every single time. If you're comfortable with this environment, then stick with it... But if you would prefer working with more enthusiastic and supportive management that brings you the raise before you can ask for it (provided you deserve it!), then take the new job and see how you do with their management. Considering your existing malcontent, it's difficult for your situation to get worse.
My situation was similar recently. I had worked for a small tech company for nearly two years, in which time I had 0 vacation days, 0 raise, and did the job of 4 people. This was known, acknowledged, and they promised me both a raise and employees to work under me. After a year of them not fulfilling their promises (justified by constant changes in management - i went between 5 managers in under 2 years!), I moved jobs. The new position was slightly more money, but it offered me a predictable position with an established and very positive-focused management team. The enjoyment of working on this team is what makes it worthwhile... I actually take home less money due to benefits and all that... and no matter what my prior employer offered, there was no way I would have accepted a counter-offer- not because I don't like counter-offers, but because what I wanted was something they weren't capable of offering.
It's good to understand what it is you are really looking for when changing jobs...
WOW not a single manager in the responses (Score:1, Insightful)
A whiner is someone who always finds something to complain about in every assignment, allocation, announcement, etc.
I've never been a real titled manager but I knew the difference immediately. You also have climbers, people who want to make things better and bring lots of suggestions, I'm one of those. The problem is trying to be helpful and constructive with out coming across as a whiner. Considering TV/movies tend to promote whining or atleast always have a whiner in the plot its a constantly observed behavior even away from work. I've found that if your not careful its easy to pick it up as a common and expected behavior, it starts to seem the normal way to bring up a problem. Rarely do they show people calmly, carefully and thoughtfully bring up an issue with solutions.
The really hard part is when you've discovered a problem, carefully explained it and possible solutions, and they tell you there is no problem.
Keeping a calm, careful, and thoughtful outlook after that encounter is difficult. Especially if its a problem that affects you directly day after day.
10 questionable reasons... (Score:5, Insightful)
* You have now made your employer aware that you are unhappy. From this day on, your loyalty will always be in question.
Loyalty??? How 1950's... It depends on the company culture. If they bothered with the counter-offer, either it isn't too big a problem, or else they really, really need you to stick around while they hunt for a replacement. Better understand your own company well enough to tell the difference.
I am assuming here that you repeatedly told your boss the salary was inadequate _before_ you started looking outside. If your outside jobhunting was a complete surprise, whether because you never asked for a raise or because the boss is an idiot whose forgotten all the times you showed him salary surveys, etc., then you'd better get out, because you have pissed off a powerful idiot...
* When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is loyal and who is not.
You expected a promotion on top of that big pay raise?
* When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you.
Or maybe if they needed you bad enough to make the counteroffer, you'll be the last one they lay off. But usually in a real crunch the question is not you, it's whether the work you are doing is still vital considering the product lines they are dumping.
* Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow to your personal pride; you were bought.
If there's any chance your boss is as childish as this, by all means get out. If you are as childish as this, I hope it wasn't my company that made that offer...
* Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from? All companies have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed. Is it your next raise early?
Whether you can expect continuing raises beyond the counteroffer is a question you must ask. However, in most companies wage and salary guidelines matter only as long as employees believe they are a reasonable excuse for not keeping salaries competitive. They'll tell you they can't give you a raise because of the guidelines, but it's just an excuse. If they really can't break the guidelines to hire and keep the people they really need, you should have been looking for a new job a long time ago, because this company is doomed to death by bureacracy.
* Your company will immediately start looking for a new person at a cheaper price.
Maybe. If you work on a project by project basis, they might be just stringing you along to the end of the current project, but otherwise, if they thought they could replace you they'd have said goodbye already.
* The same circumstances that now cause you to consider a change will repeat themselves in the future, even if you accept a counteroffer.
If you were looking for other work because of working conditions, don't even think about counteroffers. (Unless it's to promote you to CEO so you _can_ fix the problems.) But if it was just about pay raises, just make sure the counteroffer is big enough that you won't need another raise before the next merger/split/reorganization/corporate bankruptcy makes it irrelevant anyway.
* Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is extremely high.
Source? I can make up statistics too.
* Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal satisfaction of peer group acceptance.
Refer back to what I said about loyalty. Your office isnt like a Little League team, I hope
* What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign before they will give you what you are worth?
A typical one. That's partly because so many companies don't know what their employees are worth until they have to think about replacing them, but also it's in the fundamental nature of commercial negotiations. You are selling yourself. In any negotiated sale, a person who lets it be seen that he isn't willing to walk away is going to get screwed.
To go back to "loyalty": in this context, it's a trick to put you in the ready-to-be-screwed frame of mind.
A person is a business (Score:2, Insightful)
1) As a commodity, a service that the business owns and can milk for any and all skills that the person has at whatever rate they feel like paying. In this case, pay is based on "get the most you can for the cheapest price." These are generally the bargain-basement companies that have nasty reputations in the industry, high turnover rates, etc. They often let people go without a counteroffer, knowing that they can replace this person with a newbie for $15,000 less per year. This type of company does not focus on training and rarely technology, and often thinks of its shareholders and profit margins first, prone to layoffs and a low stock price, no matter what "changes" are made to "better" the company.
2) As a business, another organization with skills and brains to help take the company to a new level. The company is hiring this organization (you) in order to increase productivity, efficiency, profit, growth, etc. The company respects the employee as a valuable part of a team, and the employee could certainly be called a "business partner." These companies usually give large raises and bonuses based on performance, leave doors open and inform staff of newly developing opportunities for partner growth. Their benefits are usually better because they are quite aware of how each employee is an integral member of the team that makes the company tick properly.
Those are the basic two kinds of employers. When being counter-offered, companies often can only go so high due to budgeting and pay scales. In the case of pay-scale limits, it is always appropriate for you, as an employee, to work with the employer to create a "new" position or title in order to be paid what the market (or your skills) say you are worth.
Often times, this is called a "variance request."
Today, I am actually meeting with my SVP (in 2 hours) to propose a variance request for my position. Not only am I underpaid per the market or in general, but I have taken on more duties that are not associated with my original job description. In this case, if the SVP does not want to or cannot provide me with ample compensation, I will propose a change of title/position. Many people feel that coworkers will be offended, e.g., but in reality, there is nothing wrong with keeping the new title and/or position a private matter, just as long as it is approved and on the company's books.
I view my employer as the type #1 above. Today, we will find out how much they are willing to transition to a type #2 company.
The SVP has been bantering about employee retention, so I'm going to test his true feelings on the matter.
Remember, though, sometimes when you go job shopping and then go in to tell your boss, they are counter-offering you because they had no idea that you were leaving, or they might have made a mistake in overlooking a superstar employee. A counter-offer is their last chance to keep someone that could truly be an asset to the company.
My $0.02, to be tested at 4pm CST today.
-RH
Re:GE (Score:3, Insightful)
That's certainly true at a large company the first time you do this. But there are a few dangers to the devil-take-the-hindmost approach.
The first is a pretty obvious one: scoring actual peformance is really hard, so most places base this stuff on the appearance of performance or on opinions of your performance, often from people who aren't particularly qualified to judge (e.g., MBAs judging technical peformance). So the people you end up keeping may be the most politically skilled or the most effective bullshitters. Increasing their number may be even worse than the deadweight you had before.
A more subtle one is that if you apply this rule over and over, you will be getting rid of higher and higher quality people. (Simulate it with some random numbers to see what I mean.) That can be very wasteful, especially given the high hidden costs of turnover.
The one that worries me most, though, is that you substantially reduce incentives for internal cooperation. If I know that a third of my team is going to be fired, I have a strong disincentive to help my coworkers shine. For example, the top debugger on a team may never look good on traditional code production metrics, but he may be able to spend an hour to save his coworkers days of hunting. For those following team-oriented approaches to development (including the agile processes like XP), this will destroy the source of most of the potential productivity gains.
Re:Do what's best for you. (Score:2, Insightful)
- The company will not forget that you have put them in this position.
- Individuals may forgive, but the company has a long memory.
- Although you get the money now, future raises may be in jeopardy or you could hit a salary band cap.
- Co-workers and bosses may be jealous or suspicious of you. Resentment will be there
- They will always think you are looking for a new job.
- Opportunities and choice assignments may be given to a 'more loyal' employee.
- If any job/ salary cuts come, you'll be first.
I've been on both ends of this decision and it is always better to leave. You can always go back, so don't burn bridges.
I have rehired IT people that have left in similar situations. I don't regret letting them go or rehiring them later.
Re:Do Not Accept (Score:2, Insightful)
Really? Why would you post with an Apple email address and not one associated with your headhunting work? This is slashdot... supposedly a community of geeks and "IT" types.
One thing is certainly true, which a relatively small number of +5 comments have touched upon: Hiring people is difficult and risky. It is were easy, there wouldn't be much need for headhunters at their significant fees, would there?
Risk is a key factor involved in counter offers. Hiring a new person is a big risk. More likely than not, an employee who gets a counter offer is considered valuable and experienced, even if they originally appeared to be inexperienced when initially hired (thus offered an "entry level" salary). They're worth more now, partly due to experience and their good relationships with others in the office, partly due to the cost and risk of replacing them. Risk aside, consider the fee to be paid for a headhunter (or time spent interviewing many canidates). It's not cheap!
The smartest tactic to solicit a counter offer is to establish that salaries in general are higher than you're currently being paid. Published salary surveys work the best, but a few well substantiated "by brother makes XXX at his job and my wife's friend also makes XXX". Coupled together with "company XYZ offered me XXX", your employer will be faced with the reality they they'll probably end up paying about that much to a new hire, without your experience, and with the risk that they might not work out for a variety of reasons. Of course, this assumes that you do make a valuable contribution to your employer's business, that you do fit well into the office culture, and that your salary really is somewhat low relative to a number of opportunities in your area.
Headhunters do have their place... they save a lot of time in the hiring process and good ones are often better at interviewing and selecting the "best fit" than a lot of middle managers (who frequently are over-tasked or constantly putting out fires and don't have time to effectively screen and interview canidates).
But a headhunter Thomas J. Dougherty & Associates... the folks who posted that 10-reasons list [jobsontheweb.com] post a generic list like that for no reason other spreading a little Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt in staying with one current employer (and thus jeprodising their placement fee).
Take The Other Job: You Just Burned Yourself. (Score:2, Insightful)
That having been said, all the advise you will hear amounts to shit until it is filtered through your situation. I checked the link, and I can argue with each one of those points. So here's the deal: If you made it clear to your employer that the only reason you considered leaving was the money issue, then they will *NOT* question your loyalty. However, it will always reflect on you. You will be expected to justify the pay raise with more productivity, and after you decline the other job offer your leverage is gone. Also, you may face some conflict from your fellow employees who are going to be jealous knowing you got a pay raise "just because you threatened to leave".
In all, you may as well accept the other job. In the future, never use the threat (even if you did'nt use it as a threat, it is still a threat) of leaving in order to justify a pay raise. You should instead approach your bosses and make a justification. Your output, combined with your loyalty, and your holistic participation in the companies welfare as demonstrated by your paycut alone should be enough to justify your pay increase. If they say no dice, then you accept the other job offer, give your employer two weeks notice, and move on.
The job marketplace should be as proactive as the economy, but we tend to get ourselves into the "wage slave mentality" that employers are only too happy to exploit. Instead of begging for handouts, employees should recognize the fair market value of their skills, and capitalize upon them whenever possible. In the past 20 years, corporations have abandoned the idea of loyalty, and no longer respect a person for being a "company man". Loyalty is a two way street, and if you can expect to get laid off because management fucked up and doesn't want to take a paycut, then management is going to have to accept a fluid and unreliable talent pool. That's a fair market.
Re:Do Not Accept (Score:2, Insightful)
First of all, headhunters only exist because A) companies love to steal workers from other companies in much the same way as some people find the girlfriends of other men more appealing than "available" women: basically, an innate sleaziness which drives them to slither through the mud instead of walking on their hind legs like the rest of us. B) American corporate business will worm its way into every aspect of society it possibly can, so because it was perceived that there was a market for job-hunting assistance, headhunters sprung up like conjured demons to capture that market and make it infinitely more difficult to find a job the old, less unsavory way. There's an obvious parallel between the headhunters in New York and the real estate agents that focus on apartment finding, in that the real estate agents basically locate and sit on every available apartment, not allowing anyone to rent until they pay the agent's bribe first. The only difference is, headhunters sit on resumes.
Having said all that, let me continue.
The problem with the worldview is this. Let's say you have a job, and you're satisfied with it. Then a headhunter finds you a new job and cold-calls you to offer it. Suddenly you're thinking about the new job, whereas before you might have been satisfied. So, you say you're going to quit and they make a counter-offer. You want to know whether you should accept. The real question in your mind SHOULD be, "what the hell am I doing listening to this headhunter? Where I should be concerning myself with maintaining a stable, safe existence with a steady salary, this person wants me to job hop all over the place and never know what's going to happen next." But, ok, maybe your question is about accepting, since you've already taken the bait.
Well, the answer is no. First of all, you liked the job before, right? So you shouldn't have taken the headhunter's call in the first place. And, you definitely shouldn't have mentioned it to your boss if you had. Then, when you decided to take the offer, you shouldn't have even considered the possibility of a counter-offer. Either you're coming and going, you can't be both -- trying to waffle makes you into a whore, and you're not a whore, are you? Of course not.
But, wait. Let's say you really hate your job. Well, then, you'd be accepting the new offer and the counter offer would be a non-issue, right? So I'm assuming that the job was fine until Mr. Headhunter stuck his nose in it.
Now, it's true that companies don't deserve loyalty. Companies don't really deserve much of anything. If you have any loyalty at all it should be directed at a boss you trust, someone who is willing to watch your back from time to time. If you have such a boss, as I do (luckily), I'd advise you to keep him. And, your loyalty to him should inspire you to blow headhunters off.
On the other hand, let's say your boss sucks. Then you probably hate your job and again, the counteroffer isn't much of an issue.
I guess the real point here is, instead of always sniffing around for a better job, maybe you should just try to find one GOOD job that you can depend on, and try to keep it as long as possible. If you find the right kind of job, you won't have to deal with headhunters any more, and you'll avoid the greasy feeling they leave you with. You know, there ARE jobs you can keep until you retire. They DO exist. You just have to show a little honor so that they know they can take you seriously.
Hint: Most of them are NOT in "corporate America".
Re:With the way IT jobs are going... (Score:1, Insightful)
I happen to work in an environment where overall the people are good people and easy to get on with. The pay is not fantastic, but i'm doing very well for myself.
The MOST important questions are
a) Do you actually like the place you work? Really? I know this sounds obvious, but it often isn't
b) Why did you even ask about the counter offer when you were spoken to by the head-hunter? Was it just to see "what other companys are willing to pay" - because if money is the only objective, then definately stay where you are if your answer to (a) is YES
c) If the company pays lowly in general, then they will continue to do so. If money is a big concern, then this problem will crop up again in a few years.
At the end of the day, any employer that's willing to increase my pay by 50% has a problem. I used to work for a company with great people but extremely agressive (sell your mother style) management. When I left that place, I took a 50% pay increase - and swore if I ever saw a company like that again, I'd never work for them again. Strangely enough, they're a very popular company!!
By the way, the top 10 reasons for not accepting a counter offer are complete RUBBISH. Here are some counter arguments that you may want to think about.
#1
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>You have now made your employer aware that you are unhappy. From this day on, your loyalty will always be in question.
Assuming your boss is like Montgomery Burns, this is possible. In the real world - if you can't talk to your boss and talk about "ambitions" then get another boss. I've never worked for a company where I couldn't talk to the boss about "MY wants", including my next position, money, etc. If there's no negotiation, there's nothing.
#2
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>When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is loyal and who is not.
This is partially true. If you steal from the company or badmouth the boss publicly - the answer is YES. You will be looked over. However, any successful boss will say "this person has potential" or "this person is not capable". If you are capable and haven't caused trouble, then this point is another untruth.
#3
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>When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you.
When times are tough, your employer will have the strategy that fits the time (across the board paycuts -or- no hiring of new staff -or- elimination of staff). Will they get rid of the most expensive employees (ie. the board of directors?) - NO. This point holds no water again.
#4
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>Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow to your personal pride; you were bought.
Why is accepting a counteroffer an insult to your intelligence? Contrary, it's a compliment that they REALLY want you. Yes, maybe they overlooked you in terms of money - but did you say anything to them previously, let alone indicate it?
#5
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>Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from? All companies have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed. Is it your next raise early?
Wage and salary guidelines that must be followed? Who are you kidding? Yes, there is accountability - but an employee's salary is a SMALL part of MOST MEDIUM-LARGE SIZED TECHNOLOGY RELATED BUSINESSES!!! If someone goes outside the normal wage bounds -and they are good enough- then this is perfectly ok. Yes, they most probably won't see a huge increase in the next few years.
I won't bother responding to the rest of the points, they're all mostly CRAP - unless you are an incompetent employee. In fact, these points sound like something from a recruiting company... "You must change jobs so we can get commission"
Hope this helps
AC
Your worried about skewed "feedback cycles"... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Why not earlier (Score:2, Insightful)
Businesses stay in business by making money.
You sound like a democrat.