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Small Footprint PCs? 62

Posted by Cliff from the the-smaller-the-better dept.
Gameface asks: "I am looking for the smallest system I can find, in quantity, for my company. We need thousands of these systems, and I'd like to ask the Slashdot community what they'd recommend. Looking for the tiniest footprint for: Case, Motherboard, CPU, RAM, HDD, Serial Port, (2) 10/100 ports. No video required, no sound, all access will be via console (serial port). No OS, just a bare piece of hardware that I can load the OS onto the HDD. I'd really like to find something with SIMMS so we can upgrade the RAM if we need to. And of course, price is very much an issue. Thanks."
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Small Footprint PCs? More

Small Footprint PCs?

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  • For thousands I would say you needed to call rackable: http://www.rackable.com/

    Dave
    • Hi, I just decided to piggy-back this message as it went out of New Zealand because we only connect to the interweb when the flying birds aren't passing through cook strait.

      Anyway, my point is that this is the perfect thing for a thin-client (running citris mainframe juice) with a server-room tucked away to your left.

      Cook me some eggs, WasterDave, cook me some fucking eggs.

  • Small, Fast, Cheap.

    Pick any two.

  • Net4501 seems to fit the bill (Score:4, Interesting)

    by earthy ( 11491 ) on Wednesday July 03, 2002 @04:47AM (#3812945)
    If you are not too concerned about processorperformance, you might want to look at Soekris Technologies' Net4501 or Net4521. It is not very expandable, but seems to fulfill your requirements nicely. More information is at Soekris' website [soekris.com]. Other options would be the PC104 series of modules... but you'd have to find your own enclosures.

  • Really small (Score:3, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 03, 2002 @04:58AM (#3812968)
    Have a Cappuccino. [thinkgeek.com]

  • Small PCs are all very well and good... (Score:5, Funny)

    by ringbarer ( 545020 ) on Wednesday July 03, 2002 @05:00AM (#3812974) Homepage Journal
    ... but what measures will you be taking in order to stop employees (disgruntled or otherwise) from slipping any spare machines into their lunch boxes and carrying them out?

  • Blades (Score:3, Interesting)

    by quintessent ( 197518 ) <my usr name on toofgiB [tod] moc> on Wednesday July 03, 2002 @05:22AM (#3813022) Journal
    Do a search for "blade server."

    A blade is a computer on a board. You can put multiple blades in one case and have them share power supplies. I think Compaq sells them, among others.

    This is a way to get them very dense and lower in power consumption (which also lowers air conditioning bills), but as a previous poster pointed out, small footprints come at a price.
    • If the machines need to be located in different places, blades wouldn't be the answer. Maybe look into Single Board Computer (SBC). There are plenty of vendors for them via http://www.google.com/ .

  • what do you want to use them for? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by StandardDeviant ( 122674 ) on Wednesday July 03, 2002 @05:33AM (#3813046) Homepage Journal
    I think that will determine your search more than absolute size. Afterall, you could get a webserver the size of a matchbox [stanford.edu], but it'd be pretty lousy as a user workstation... If you want really dense servers, check into the "blade" fad. If you want really tiny user workstations, look into Shuttle [shuttleonline.com]'s line of small and quiet most-everything-is-integrated barebones PCs (they've got pci slots for that extra nic or whatever). And of course there are all kinds of tiny single board computers for industrial applications.
    • They'll be used for NAT, Firewall, Syslog, SNMP and IDS.
      I need a footprint smaller than 9x9x3...preferably about 6x4x2.
      • That is pretty tiny. You might check out the guys over at embsd.org [embsd.org], specifically this thing [embsd.org]. Out of the box you could do NAT and Firewall with it I'm sure... I'd imagine Syslog (with a disk of some sort) and SNMP too. Only question is whether or not the cpu has enough grunt for IDS... Also, and this is a more expensive solution, you might consider getting one of the Cappucino mini-PCs over at thinkgeek. They'll set you back 800-1100, but they're certain to have enough pwr for your needs and they've got about a 6x5x2 footprint. They've only got one built-in rj45 port, but they've got something like 2-4 USB ports so you could string several USB ethernet controllers off the back for more interfaces as needed... (yeah, I know, not ideal, but it's probably 90% of what you want. ideally they'd have a pci slot for a multiport server nic; if nothing else just put the usb nics on the slow interfaces (e.g. the wan links)) The Shuttle cases are within the 9x9 part of your spec but are probably a litte too tall...
        • I'd imagine Syslog (with a disk of some sort)

          Syslog is strongly discouraged on flash memory, possibly due to superstition, because of the number of writes and overwrites.

          The recommended way to log anything from an embedded computer like this is over the network. There's almost always something on misc@openbsd about a secure syslog set up.

          As I look at the electric bill during the summer, stuff like the Soekris kit (which pulls 10W, rather than the 200-400W of a PC) looks more and more like a good investment... with 2-5 computers being 'always on,' (right now it's 2, but it's heading towards 5), it's worth at least looking at cutting the power requirements of each.

  • SIMMs? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by buzzbomb ( 46085 ) on Wednesday July 03, 2002 @06:34AM (#3813141)
    I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a modern machine that uses SIMMs. And I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a 486 with 2 10/100 ethernet ports on-board as well.

    Do you have any idea what you are really looking for?

  • oQo (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Kraft ( 253059 ) on Wednesday July 03, 2002 @06:53AM (#3813178) Homepage
    Not _really_ what you want (it has video, and im not sure about upgradability), but fcuk this little ripper [oqo.com] looks nice! Most like it's going to be launched later this year.

    It was covered on /. some time ago.
  • http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/computing/59ef.shtm l [thinkgeek.com] and http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/computing/59ef-2.sh tml [thinkgeek.com]

    I've wanted one of these for a while. It's a fully functional PC that's not much larger than a CD (though a bit thicker, of course). There's also this one [thinkgeek.com] that adds firewire support and is based on the Intel 815 rather than the 810.

  • Small Form Factor (SFF) Forum (Score:3, Informative)

    by buffy_fan ( 193310 ) on Wednesday July 03, 2002 @08:17AM (#3813357)
    http://forums.viahardware.com/categories.cfm?catid =33

    These guys know quite a bit about SFF computing.
    Bit curious what you need them for though - people are suggesting Rack mounts, but you seem to need serial access - is rackmount appropriate, or will they be scattered?

    Have you considered the VIA EDEN/EPIA? If performance is not a major concern, but size/energy/heat/cost are, it might have what you want...
    http://www.via.com.tw/en/Products/eden.js p
    http://www.mini-itx.com/

  • Crystal computers (Score:3, Informative)

    by billmaly ( 212308 ) <bill.maly@nospAM.mcleodusa.net> on Wednesday July 03, 2002 @08:28AM (#3813387)
    Utilize a single board computer, lots of exp. w. remote access. I used to work there....used too. www.crystalpc.com

  • Based around the MiniITX spec [via.com.tw], these integrated-solution PCs have a very small form factor (approx. 20cm x 20cm motherboard), and can be squeezed into whatever case you can find (or make yourself).

    See here for more info [via.com.tw]
    And here for some fully assembled product reviews [viaarena.com]

    They're also really cheap, a guy at work here just bought one to use as a small Linux firewall for under £150 UKP (approx. $230 USD) all-in.

    Cheers,
    • I have one of these on the way for my car, but I thought I could add a couple more notes and links.

      There are two via versions, green box (w/o fan) and blue box (w/fan). I picked up the VIA EPIA Eden 5000 Mini-ITX Motherboard that comes with a fanless ~533mhz cpu, 2.8W power, 17x17cm footprint, lan, video, sound, svideo, usb, and serial ports for about $100 USD. The 666mhz fanless version should be out soon. Uses a standard ATX PS, but it does not have to be very big. Nice driver support for Linux and Windows. About $10USD for a 800mhz C3 that needs a small fan.

      Anyhow, project links at mini-itx.com [mini-itx.com], which has links to vendors, reviewers, case builders, etc.
  • Whatever systems you look at, keep an eye on maintenance costs and costs of down time. It looks like you're going to load your own custom OS -- Linux variant, *BSD, maybe something else. However, your time is valuable -- make sure that the the boxen that you buy support a rapid way of loading the OS. E.g., stick in a CD and everything happens automatically.

    Down the road, look at the expected costs if one of these puppies fails. Depending on your expected costs (e.g., one element of a computing farm fails just before a 30 hour computation finishes, making all of the others freeze and loose their results in turn), you may want to go for a more expensive commercial 1U or blade server that uses better quality components or has redundant components.

    Lastly, look to see how these can be mounted for easy access. At some point the whole mess of them will need to be upgraded or have their OS updated, and having them in easy access racks will be much less costly.

    I'm partial to Apple's XServe [apple.com], but then again I work for Apple ;-)

    Good luck and let us know what you choose in the end.

    --Paul
  • The original questioner is obviously unclear about what he wants (answer: rackmount servers, probably blades, which don't really have a footprint at all). But since the title of the topic is "Small Footprint PCs?", could we have some discussion of that?

    Assuming Apple doesn't release a cheap expandable desktop (aka the PowerMac LC) at MWNY this month, I'm leaning towards building a micro ATX Athlon/NForce box in the fall. I've been investigating on NewEgg, Googlegear, Anandtech, etc, and apparently mATX cases are significantly more expensive than ordinary ATX midtowers. Very disappointing.

    What would you recommend for a low-cost, decent-performance, hopefully-low-power/noise box that's under 1700 cubic inches?
    • The current best fast machine with lots of expandability and a not-outrageous price seems to the be the Shuttle SS40 [shuttleonline.com]. It's a pretty sexy and silent little box, with firewire to boot. pricewatch [pricewatch.com] suggests this barebones box will run you about $US 350. According to Storage Review [storagereview.com], the Seagate Cuda IV is the quietest drive on the market, but the Western Digital JB series are only a bit louder, and their 8mb buffer makes them hella fast. Throw in the fastest Duron or Athlon XP you can get your hands on and some CAS2 DDR, and off you go.

      Or you can just go to Smalldog [smalldog.com] and get the fastest Powerbook G4 you can afford, which serves as a pretty darn good desktop replacement, especially the new one with a 17" LCD attached via the DVI connector (-:.
      • Shuttle SS40. It's a pretty sexy and silent little box

        Yes, that looks like a very promising design. Hopefully they'll release an AGP version soon.

        get the fastest Powerbook G4 you can afford

        That would be "none at all". :-( My budget is absolutely under $1000, and I need fast 3D.
    • I've been investigating on NewEgg, Googlegear, Anandtech, etc, and apparently mATX cases are significantly more expensive than ordinary ATX midtowers. Very disappointing.

      Most of the NewEgg "microATX" boxes are unnecessarily expensive, yes. At the low end I can find at local white-box shops what are essentially truncated ATX midtowers for roughly $20 without a power supply and $35 with a cheapo power supply. These are roughly equivalent to the Enlight EN-7150AJ at Newegg but without the swingout tray.

      For an Athlon/NForce combo you probably don't want the super-cheapie power supply that comes with a MicroATX case; take a regular 300 or 350W supply and put it in.

  • To answer your question, the smallest PCs as a matter of volume, will probably laptops or Cappucino PCs [cappuccinopc.com]. You could fit 4-6 of them in the same volume of a standard desktop PC.

    But, it sounds like you are looking for a high density solution. Perhaps you plan to do some server clustering? For this, the solution is going to be a blade server or something like it. Cubix [cubix.com] is one of the best and oldest in this business.

  • Servers? (Score:2, Informative)

    by funkboy ( 71672 )
    Given the fact that you want no video, it seems you need servers on the cheap. If you're actually buying thousands (or really more than ten or so) of machines, I suggest you go with an integrator like XRam [xram.com] or Fnord [fnordsystems.com]. They'll build whatever you want for you, configure everything EXACTLY the same, test everything, install & do a basic config (i.e. network config and root password) for any OS you want, and install your machines on site. I'm sure the'll give you a nice quantity discount if you buy in the numbers you're talking about.

    Don't even THINK about deploying that quantity of machines without racking them in a proper datacenter type environment (cooling, ample redundant AC power feeds, generator, decent physical security, etc.); FORGET about normal PC cases on Ikea shelves in your basement/office. Whatever cash you would save doing it the ghetto way is absolutely not worth the headache of blowing breakers, having your ambient temp at 35-40C and grilling PC parts if your cheap-o electro-cool chiller dies or spills its bin of water all over the place, your local power company decides you're not important, etc.

    That being said, here are a few links for what I'd build if I had to do it myself on the cheap (try googlegear.com [googlegear.com] for good qty. 1 prices on this stuff:

    Elite K7S5AL mobo (integrated lan)
    1.2 GHz AMD Duron with a really good fan (i.e. Tai-Sol or similar overclocker freak fan)
    at least 512M of brand-name CAS2 ECC DDR SDRAM
    Western Digital JB series hard drive (WD800JB or WD1200JB)
    Netgear FA311 NIC

    The cheapest 2u rack case on the net seems to be the Electroseller IPC-2025 [electroseller.com] at $118 without power supply and fans. It takes nomal ATX size CDRom, floppy, power supply, fans, etc. pricewatch [pricewatch.com] is your friend (-:.

    This should net you a pretty sweet 2u rackable server for about $500. I envy not the man that has to assemble more than about 10 of these things by himself. Maybe those chainmail gloves that people that shuck clams for a living use would help.

    If you want to do something with the data on these machines, you'll probably want to stick a pair (yes, a pair) of big ethernet switches in front of them. I suggest Foundry [foundrynet.com] or Extreme [extremenetworks.com]. You can buy these "certified used" from BizInt [bizint.com].

    "Imagine a beow..." (-:
  • Sounds like a perfect place for Blade Servers.

    A blade server is a computer on a card, uses a low (well lower than cutting edge) power CPU (low voltage PIII 700, for example, or a Celeron 1GHz) and a single DIMM, has a 2.5" hard drive (or two) and plugs into a backplane like a hot swap hard drive. A rack mount backplace 2U high can hold 16 of these, some 3U backplanes hold +/- 20. You can fit 1,000 of these in three full sized racks. Using 1GHz chips, that would be roughly 1 TeraHertz of combined CPU with and 512G of RAM, with over a TeraByte (a million megs) of hard drive space.

    The blades cost +/- $1,000 apiece plus backplanes. Not as cheap as a Dell 4500S, but extremely tight packed.

    Chheck out http://www.tsti.com/tud2016.html for examples.

    Glonoinha

  • Its about the size of a novel. http://forums.viahardware.com [viahardware.com] Check out the small form factor forum. Most of these machines are so small and cool they need no cooling.

    Up to 800mhz too! You can buy them here [idot.com] The ITX motherboard format is the way to go. Shuttle has offerings in the area too.

  • I do not know what kind of performance you are looking for, but a SBC might work for you. They typically have high end 486's or low end 586's running on them. I have a 586 with LAN, 1 channel IDE, VGA and LCD controller, serial, parallel, and a single SIMM slot that fits in the size of a 3.5" hard drive. (Though it isn't as thick). Some offer DOC has an option so you can boot entirely out of flash memory. Here's some links

    www.advantech.com (where I bought mine)
    www.embeddedx86.com
    www.emacinc.com
    www.linuxdevices.com (they have a list of different SBCs)
    • Do you know where you can get approximate (single-quantity) prices along with product descriptions? Even something in a reasonably-large band ($250-400, 400-750, 750-1000, etc.) would be enough to rule out some SBCs for some applications.

      All of the sites I've found will give you everything you could possibly want except the price... despite the fact that price is the critical factor in many applications. E.g., if you want to experiment with an intelligent firewall, you'll need to focus on SBCs in the sub-400 range since you can get a COTS box for under $100.

      I know most sites want me to talk to their sales rep, but I think that's a waste of time for both of us when the anticipated volume can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Just tell me the price with a single-unit premium.
      • In that case www.advantech.com is really good. They have an online store for just that case. I found when I was looking for a SBC in situations where there were no prices online, a simple email worked. I would explain I'm looking at doing a school project (of course now I'd say personal project) and only require 1 unit. This allowed some grunt (or sales rep) to fire back a simple email. If the sales rep wanted to waste time on me, they now had the option to do so.

        The best case was when I was looking to purchase a touchscreen. Elo didn't really have an online order method, but I interacted with a sales rep via email. Then when it was time to make payment, she gave me a call.

  • SIMMs? (Score:2)

    by Tom7 ( 102298 )

    I don't think you want SIMMs. Those were popular in 1996, but these days everybody uses DIMMs or SODIMMs (laptops).

    By the way: Ask slashdot questions generally need more context, or else we're all just speculating! What are you going to do with these things? Can it be done by networking your terminals to one large machine in the back room?
  • Just get a p-series [ibm.com] and run a bunch of instances of Linux. Cheaper, more reliable, and you get a wicked fast machine.
  • I got one of these [asus.com] from Asus. It's pretty good, graphics performance isn't the best and it runs a little hot, but other than that cheap and fast.

  • Soekris, about the size of a piece of Toast (Score:4, Interesting)

    by jsimon12 ( 207119 ) on Wednesday July 03, 2002 @01:00PM (#3815250) Homepage
    http://www.soekris.com/ [soekris.com]

    These are great little PC's the boards are about the size of a piece of toast, with the case they are about the size of 2 pieces of toast, they only use 800 milliamps at 12 volt (if I remember right), have no moving parts, serial console and 3 network ports, and a CF slot for the disk. I have been using one with a IBM microdrive and OpenBSD as a border router for about a year now, and it works great.
  • Try Terraspring [terraspring.com]. It is more of a platform for datacenters but I think it could be used in this case. I assume you need that many machines for computing power, but if you can make each machine with higher usage, you will need fewer number of machines.
  • You don't sound very educated on this issue.

    It sounds as though you're trying to build a server cluster or farm of some sort. Why do you need tiny machines?

    24/7, high duty cycle machines need good cooling and power supplies. Better supplies and cooling than your average Shuttle SV24 or fresh-off-the-boat flexATX case is going to give you. Rackmount stuff is used for a reason. It's uniform, easily swapped, ruggedly built and easy to maintain.

    Do you really want to run around, swapping out SIMMS (or DIMMS, as I suspect you meant to type) and maintaining OS's on thousands of machines?

    I have a hard time thinking that a company that has a budget for computers of at least 1 million dollars (bare minimum 1k per machine x 1000) would hire a person that would need to post an Ask Slashdot to get recommendations for the systems.

    Methinks this is another "I'm bored. I like beowulf clusters. Let's see if i can start a geeky conversation about what a good theoretical tiny case would be for the dream cluster that i always think about in Chemistry" Ask Slashdot, not a legitimate request for consulting. If it is, I work for the low fee of $300 per hour, two hour minimum.

  • This is my favorite slimline PC. Supports P-III 1ghz+, costs under $300 barebones.

    Company site [msicomputer.com]
    A friendly ebay dealer [ebay.com]
    Config for Linux [woz.gs]

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