Alternative-Fuel Vehicle Recommendations? 1080
Ellen Spertus asks: "My husband and I lease a pure electric GM EV-1, which we love, and need to replace our second car, a conventional Honda Accord, which recently died. We'd get a second EV-1, but GM has stopped making them. I haven't been able to find any available all-eletric car with the range (>=50 miles roundtrip) and speed (>=65 mph) that I need. Does the Slashdot community have any experience, wisdom, or advice on choosing an alternative fuel car?"
"I'm currently considering:
- Toyota Prius, a hybrid sedan
- Honda Insight, a hybrid two-seater
- Honda Civic GX, a compressed natural gas (CNG) powered sedan
Big fan of CNG (Score:2, Informative)
Have you considered?... (Score:5, Informative)
Direct links to car info (Score:4, Informative)
Honda Insight = uncomfortable (Score:1, Informative)
YMMV and all that, this was all IMO, etc. Good luck with your car buy.
My experiences with the Prius (Score:5, Informative)
I was considering the Insight, but it's only two seats, and two doors as you mentioned, so I decided to go with the Prius, as it's basically the same size as any other compact sedan.
I was looking into pure electric and gas cars, but decided not to at this time, because sometimes I like to take long-distance trips (eg, between the Bay Area, and LA, or to Nevada/Las Vegas) and there are no electric or gas refueling stations for long stretches outside urban areas, making long-distance road trips impossible with these vehicles' current range.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toyota-prius/ It might be useful for you as well, although it's geared more towards current owners.
As for the car itself, It's proven to be 100% reliable thus far in the 14 months that I've had it, and I've been averaging 50 MPG or so. It definitely is worth it, at least for me, since I commute about 45 miles a day round trip.
If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask me. If you want an independent assessment, john1701a.com [john1701a.com] has a lot of info on it from a owner. The group groups.yahoo.com/group/toyota-prius/ [yahoo.com] has a lot to offer as well with many helpful people.
Finally, since this is
How does a Honda die? (Score:3, Informative)
At any rate the Civic HX is a gas only and gets about 80-85% of the mileage of the Civic electric hybrid. The insight is more of a concept car - only two seats no back at all no storage really. The Prius is an Echo with a different powerplant to give you a sense of the bigger size.
Toyota is supposed to be delivering a hybrid next year if I remember correctly. Probably based on a Corolla floorpan.
other ideas (Score:4, Informative)
-The current hybrid vehicles, IMO, offer a false ecomony due to their higher sticker price and uncertain disposal/replacement cost for the batteries +/- 8 years down the road.
-Looking at the Honda lineup it would make more sense economically to purchase the Civic HX Coupe or any other of the other non-hybrid Civics (or 4 cylinder Accords for that matter).
-Take a look at Intellichoice.com and fueleconomy.gov and do some calculations to determine the real, long term cost of a number of other vehicles (Ford Focus, Honda, Toyota, Saturn, etc)and see how it stacks up to the hybrids.
-The one caveat is that you need to know what happens what it is time to replace the batteries on a hybrid car.
-Lastly, check local rebates for buying a hybrid vehicle in your area, that might make up the initial cost difference in buying a hybrid vehicle.
Good luck!
Car pool access (Score:3, Informative)
At last check, this benefit was not available to hybrid electric vehicles. Especially in a large metro area like San Francisco or Los Angeles this perk alone can pay for itself.
The California Air Resources board [ca.gov] provides a list of vehicles eligible for the carpool lane perk - choose carefully because not all alternative fuel vehicles are eligible!
A good resource to learn more is NGV.ORG [216.239.51.100] (I've linked to google's cache... this is a small box, please don't hammer our server.) which provides a list of cofunding opportunities available for natural gas vehicle owners, including tax breaks and rebates from the state of California.
Good luck in your search!
How about Corbin Motors? (Score:3, Informative)
Corbin [corbinmotors.com] sells an electric-only model, the Sparrow; they were in the Jet Li movie, "The One", in the final scene about "the cleanest city in America":
Sparrow's Specifications
* Onboard battery charger
* Three-wheeled vehicle registers, insures and parks as a motorcycle
* 1350 lbs. curb weight, 72-inch wheel base, 57 inches vehicle height
* 70 mph top speed, 20-40 mile range
* $14,900 retail price
The Sparrow II has a 30-60 mile range and a $16,900 retail price. Corbin also advertises a gas-powered car, the Merlin, with "a 300 to 400 mile range on a tank of gas and a projected 70 to 90 miles per gallon", but it won't be out until the fall of 2003.
Also popular in New Zealand (Score:3, Informative)
Once you have a car converted in this fashion (cost used to be about NZ$1500, I think, so roughly US$850), you can drive it using either fuel source. CNG can be a bit harder to start in cold weather, and cars with CNG tanks didn't get the same range on a full tank of CNG as on a full tank of petrol. (This will obviously depend on the size of the tank -- the nature of the conversion I've described places some limitations on the size of the tank you can use.) The recommendation for such vehicles is to try to run one tank of petrol for every three or four tanks of CNG, mainly so the tubing for the petrol doesn't clog up resulting in your being unable to run on petrol if you have an emergency (like running out of CNG).
Petrol stations will often have a CNG tank beside the petrol pumps (much like a lot of service stations in the US have diesel pumps). Significantly fewer have LPG tanks, due to its lack of popularity. Filling a CNG tank is pretty simple -- you unscrew a cap on a valve, put on the CNG hose (rather like using a bicycle pump), and then let it go. I think from memory it automatically cuts off when the tank is full.
I'm too lazy to look up any information on how clean CNG really is, but it certainly smells better than petrol fumes! I also don't know what the distribution of natural gas fields are like on a global scale -- anyone else have such details? Would a nice side consequence of greater use of CNG be to decrease dependence on oil fields which are mostly located in politically unstable areas of the world?
Have Prius ... love it. (Score:5, Informative)
I've put about 11,000 miles on my Prius in the first year of ownership. About half of them are highway miles on roadtrips; about 10% of them are short (1-2 mile) hops in town. Its lifetime fuel economy is about 48MPG. Range is about 500-600 miles. On the highway it consistently gets over 45 MPG (and I'm not gentle on the throttle -- 70-80 MPH on the level, and I floor it when I'm crossing the Rockies -- I live in Colorado). In town it gets 35-38 for the first mile or two, until the engine is warm -- then more like 48-52.
The Prius has no transmission at all -- just a second differential that shunts power between two electric motors/generators and the engine. (How it works [insightcentral.net]). It's all drive-by-wire: the gas pedal is just a rheostat connected to the drive computer.
The engine has a lot of cool stuff to it: an off-center crankshaft, variable compression ratio, and (ISTR) noncircular pistons. Because of the differential it runs at more or less whatever speed the computer wants, regardless of how fast you're going.
For me (in Colorado) a pure EV was right out because of the low energy density of batteries -- it's hard to climb mountains in a pure EV. The Prius battery is used for load leveling on the engine (gas engines run best when the load is conditioned). Climbing over about 2000 feet vertical at freeway speeds drains the battery, but the computer handles it gracefully and the car just slows down to about 55 mph (on a standard 7% freeway grade). Conversely, coming down more than about 1000 feet of altitude will fill the battery to the top from regen braking, and again the computer does the Right Thing, using the engine as a conventional compression brake rather than blowing up the battery pack.
So even though the Prius isn't designed for mountain climbing it works acceptably under even strenuous climbing conditions. The interior is roomy and holds five people with no trouble. The trunk is adequate. The ride is quiet, and the gas mileage sure doesn't stink. Cornering is very good: tight turn radius and surprising traction given the high-mileage tires. Clearance is adequate but low: it's 4 inches under load, though the bottom 2 inches is just a flexible plastic air dam -- so you can get over 5" high obstacles without killing the car.
The Insight gets better gas mileage, looks cooler, and has better acceleration when you actually want it (though I imagine Prius ROM mods will come out one day that boost the acceleration -- the computer really does use conservative settings), but it's also really tiny -- the Insight is more of a "geek sports car". Toyota went out of their way to make the Prius look-and-feel like a basic (if plush) family car, and they succeeded.
Re:Ethanol (Score:2, Informative)
Re:BIODIESEL (Score:2, Informative)
There are ~30,000 McDonalds in the entire world, ~12,000 Burger Kings. There are a hell of a lot more cars than that.
If I were in your shoes.... (Score:5, Informative)
First a disclaimer: I'm unemployed right now (please check out my resume [trumpetpower.com] and hire me!) and driving a '68 VW camper. I can't afford a new car, but that hasn't stopped me from looking.
The Honda Insight is a fascinating car. It's as if Honda took every neat new technology they've been working on and crammed it in. Unfortunately, it's small--just a two-seater--and expensive--in the low $20Ks.
For that much money or less, you can get a Volkswagen with the TDI engine. The two-door VW TDIs (the Bug and the Golf) get better mileage than any other car sold in America except for the Insight. You can drive non-stop from Salt Lake City to Los Angeles on one tank of fuel, and that's a trip I personally would take at elast two days to drive. They're also among the least-polluting cars available, though there are cleaner ones out there. The Bug has (one of?) the highest safety ratings you'll find.
The catch? They're both turbocharged diesel engines. Wait! Don't run away! A diesel engine doesn't have to be the awful, smelly, polluting nightmare you're all thinking of. When properly engineered, as is the TDI, it's superior to gasoline:
But the real thing to do with one of these cars is run it off of biodiesel instead of petroleum-based diesel. Biodiesel is a high-cetane (the diesel version of octane) fuel made from vegetable oil. It's non-toxic; you could drizzle it over your salad...though it'd likely taste awful. The maufacturing process is very similar to the soap-making process; if you've ever made soap in your kitchen, you can make biodiesel in your kitchen. Biodiesel and petroleum-based diesel can be blended in any ratio desired simply by pouring them together.
The real advantage to biodiesel, however, is that every pound of carbon put into the atmosphere via the tailpipe had been previously removed from the atmosphere by the plant. No increased CO2! (Petroleum-based diesel pumps carbon from the ground and puts it into the air.) And, because the plant pulls more carbon out of the air for itself (instead of just its seeds), each pound of biodiesel results in a net decrease of atmospheric CO2.
In essence, biodiesel is the solar storage mechanism everybody keeps looking for. Run all those trains, trucks, and power plants from solar power (by way of corn and soy) and reduce dependence on oil all at the same time! All the infrastructure is already in place....
So, buy a car with a TDI engine, and you get incredible mileage and have the option of using either fuel you can find anywhere or a very environmentally-friendly fuel.
Now, if only somebody would give me a job, I'd go out and buy one....
b&
fryer oil (Score:2, Informative)
It gets turned into conveyor lubricant for wet conveyors (soda bottlers, breweries, etc) and tire mounting lubricant. I'm sure there are a thousand other things it gets turned into as well.
Oh, and it smells fucking awful.
look at what Arizona did, then run ... run fast (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Jetta TDI has better mileage (Score:3, Informative)
Way more expensive, and there are no production models as of yet...I.E.: No pudding to find the proof in.
erm, both cars are in production. in fact i could have bought a '99.5 Jetta TDI a while back but it just didn't have enough balls.. but it's still a sweet car.
and I read a review in the local paper that compared the two cars, and they found that they got better mileage in the Jetta.. so anypoop.
A happy Prius owner (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Ethanol (Score:3, Informative)
More Diesel (Score:2, Informative)
Insight:
max torque, 89 lb-ft @ 2000 rpm w/ CVT
max HP, 73 @ 5700 rpm
Prius:
max torque, 82 lb-ft @ 4200 rpm
max HP, 98 w/ engine and motor
Golf TDI
max torque, 155 lb-ft @ 1900 rpm
max HP, 90 @ 3750 rpm
Re:BIODIESEL (Score:3, Informative)
Diesel vehicles will work with biodiesel "out of the box". In fact, biodiesel is the original fuel that diesel engines were designed to use, oil-based fuels came after the engine and refining techniques were used to make it simulate the naturally occuring oils.
Also, biodiesel is less harsh than oil-based diesel, helping the car last longer.
As to the smell- while biodiesel does have an odor, so does petrol.
- Serge Wroclawski
Volkswagen Diesel (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Ethanol (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Ethanol (Score:5, Informative)
It is not at all clear that ethanol saves any oil at all.
In a good year (with high corn yields) most studies show that ethanol production is slightly energy positive. That is, the energy content of a gallon of ethanol exceeds by approximately 15% the energy that goes into producing it. In a bad year, when yeilds are lower, it can easily require more than 80,000 BTU to produce a gallon of ethanol. (See, for example, this study [mcgill.ca].) On average it's probably about a wash. It would be interesting to see what the reaction would be to requiring ethanol producers to use ethanol instead of fossil fuel for all steps in production.
It is also questionable whether ethanol reduces CO2 emissions. From that standpoint, it would probably be better to grow trees or hemp, which would recycle more CO2 than any reduction due to burning CO2 rather than fossil fuels.
Re:Biodiesel and California air (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Ethanol is no solution, it's part of the proble (Score:2, Informative)
Ethanol can be made from feed grain waste (when grains are raised for vitamins/minerals and the starch is discarded), and there's a net gain of ~16000 btu according to DOAg..
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,46045
Still, E85 can't be used in most auto engines: it's too corrosive. Cars that can use E85 typically state it in the owner's manual or somewhere...
Re:BIODIESEL (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Ethanol (Score:5, Informative)
washingtonpost.com
Ethanol's Ambitions
Tuesday, April 16, 2002; Page A18
THE ETHANOL lobby is normally content to fleece taxpayers in two ways.
First, it promotes public payments to those who grow the corn from which
ethanol is made: Right now the House and Senate are cooking up a terrible
farm bill that would lock in 10 more years of subsidies. Second, the lobby
has used the tax system to penalize gasoline that is not one-tenth made up
of ethanol: Motorists who fill their cars with ethanol-free gas pay around 5
cents extra per gallon. Some might reckon two federal favors enough, but the
ethanol folks think bigger than that. A provision recently inserted into the
Senate energy bill by Sen. Tom Daschle, the majority leader, and Sen. Jeff
Bingaman, the energy committee chairman, would mandate a big jump in ethanol
use and give ethanol producers protection against environmental liability.
This outrage is disguised in reasonable garb: It is part of an effort to
promote renewable sources of energy. But ethanol, though made from corn, can
only loosely be thought of as renewable, since making it consumes nearly as
much non-renewable oil as the ethanol replaces. Moreover, ethanol's
environmental benefits are debated: Including it in gasoline reduces carbon
monoxide emissions but can increase smog. In any case, a sane policy on
renewables should give promising alternative energy sources a government
boost, but it shouldn't pour billions in taxpayers' cash into products that
will never be remotely viable. Remember, ethanol already gets government
help: Since 1996, crop subsidies alone have been worth nearly $30 billion to
the industry. Increasing this help would be going too far, even if ethanol's
environmental merits were more certain.
Both ethanol's drawbacks are reflected in the Senate's legislation. The bill
creates a "safe harbor," protecting industry from suits arising out of
defective additives in gasoline -- hardly a sign of confidence in ethanol's
environmental merits. It also mandates increased ethanol consumption --
again, hardly a sign that ethanol expects to gain market share on its own --
requiring that gasoline refiners step up their use of ethanol from the
current level of around 1.7 billion gallons a year to 5 billion gallons by
2012. This mandated tripling of consumption might cause shortages and
therefore price spikes, especially since the ethanol market is dominated by
three producers, which could find ways to orchestrate scarcity and pocket
windfall profits. The biggest producer is Archer Daniels Midland, which in
1996 pleaded guilty to a charge of price-fixing and was fined $100 million.
The four Democratic senators from California and New York are calling this
ethanol provision what it is: a scheme to funnel money to agribusiness and
corn states at the expense of the rest of the country. One amendment to
limit the ethanol mandate was rebuffed last Thursday, but there may be
another chance today. The Senate should back the effort to remove the
ethanol provision from the energy bill, and Sen. Daschle should not resist,
despite his farm-state loyalties. Democrats have been trying to score points
against the Bush administration by demonstrating the link between corporate
lobbyists and the White House energy policy. If the Senate's Democratic
leaders now use the energy bill to funnel money to Archer Daniels Midland
and its ilk, they'll look like hypocrites.
So many cars (Score:5, Informative)
Pure Electric:
2002 The Nissan Altra EV (pilot?) [nissandriven.com]
2002 Ford Thi!nk City [thinkmobility.com]
2002 Toyota Rav4-EV [toyota.com]
2002 Lido Motors Lido [lidomotors.com]
2002 Ford Ranger EV (fleet only?) [ford.com]
2002 Nissan HyperMini (pilot only?) [nissandriven.com]
Selectria Force (out of production?) [solectria.com]
Hybrids:
2003 Honda Civic Hybrid [hondacars.com]
2002 Honda Insight [honda2000.com]
2002 Toyota Prius [toyota.com]
Web Sites of Interest:
EV World [evworld.com]
US DoE Alternative Fuel Car Buying Guide (many listed) [doe.gov]
US DoE Alternative Fuel Vehicle Listing (many listed) [nrel.gov]
California ZEV Buyers Guide [ca.gov]
My Audi runs on Biodiesel (Score:2, Informative)
Advantages of using Biodiesel:
[biodiesel.de]
http://www.biodiesel.de/vortragen.htm
http://www.biodiesel.de/kraften.htm [biodiesel.de]
And yes, I'm very happy using Biodiesel in my car and can recommend it to everybody else.
Re:Ethanol (Score:3, Informative)
Well hemp would be less effective than corn, because ethanol is made from the fermentation of sugars, so the more sugars in the plant - the more ethanol yielded. Yes, one can make alcohols from grains, but the yield is less. Fruits yield more alcholos per volume than grains - corn yields more than hemp. Something ideal might be sugar cane.
Parade (Score:3, Informative)
Specs include:
Range : 60miles(EV60)/150miles(EV150)
Acceleration : 8 seconds for 0-60 km/h
Top Speed : 110km/h
Made in Korea.
Biodiesel (Score:2, Informative)
The major benefit of biodiesel is that you don't need any major change in hardware. All diesel powered vehicles can use Biodiesel with no modifications. [biodiesel.org]
I am a student at the University of Washington, and we recycle the used grease from restaurants by the university to fuel many of the campus vehicles.
Re:Some Quick Math (Score:1, Informative)
Annual US fuel usage of 400 million gallons, with a US population of about 290 million, implies each citizen uses less than 1.4 gallons of fuel each year. Sounds like your numbers are way off, sir!
Re:Just get a VW TDI (Golf, Jetta or Beetle) (Score:3, Informative)
I got stuck driving a Toyota Prius for a couple of days while my car was in the shop. No acceleration, almost dangerously top-heavy with a short & narrow wheelbase & width, the car was absolutely no fun to drive. The high-efficiency diesels are the most practical way to go.
YMMV.
Re:Some Quick Math (Score:1, Informative)
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petroleum/info_g
Quickie google search.
Note they are measuring in thousands of gallons.
Perhaps he used a resource like this, and didn't notice that fact.
Re:Ethanol is no solution, it's part of the proble (Score:4, Informative)
My $02 on Prius and Honda Civic Hybrid (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Just get a VW TDI (Golf, Jetta or Beetle) (Score:2, Informative)
I'm not all that excited about biodiesel because of the methanol needed to produce it. But I'm interested in a system that burns straight vegetable oil [greasel.com].
Re:Just get a VW TDI (Golf, Jetta or Beetle) (Score:3, Informative)
The diesel engine in a train does one thing: it turns an alternator to produce electricity. This electricity is then used to run the electric motors to turn the wheels.
The hybrid cars usually still have the engine hooked up to the wheels using a driveshaft, and the electric motor just supplements the engine (or vise-versa).
MCC Smart Car (Score:2, Informative)
Re:If I were in your shoes....(diesel, pollution) (Score:2, Informative)
Yep
Will they work with US diesel, which is higher in sulfur than what Europeans buy?
Nope
How do direct-injection diesels get the relatively low-soot performance that they do?
IIRC it is via very high (over 10kPSI) injection pressure, which atomizes the fuel more finely than prechambered diesels, leading to more combustion efficiency (fuel efficiency and reduced particulates)..
Check this google cache link (I can't get to tdiclub):
Fuel FAQ [216.239.51.100]
Re:Problem for USA... No automatic diesels (Score:2, Informative)
All of VW's TDI-able models in North America (Golf & Jetta) come with an optional, but very responsive automatic transmission. Surprisingly VW has gotten the transmissions to the point were there is very little power/efficiency loss over the manual.
VW Jetta [vw.com]
Re:Problem for USA... No automatic diesels (Score:2, Informative)
My dad had a 1984 Oldsmobile Ciera that had a diesel V6. It got great mileage, had an automatic transmission, and lasted for over 250K miles. Oldsmobile offered a few other diesel models too, such as the Cutlass.
P R O P A N E (Score:2, Informative)
Here's the company that did the conversion [samotorsports.com]
If you're really that concious about the fuel you use, you might as well just build/modify your own vehicle.
And I'm sorry, but the Chevorlet EV-1 may be a zero emissions car, but damn it is ugly.
Re:Ethanol (Score:2, Informative)