Alternative-Fuel Vehicle Recommendations? 1080
Ellen Spertus asks: "My husband and I lease a pure electric GM EV-1, which we love, and need to replace our second car, a conventional Honda Accord, which recently died. We'd get a second EV-1, but GM has stopped making them. I haven't been able to find any available all-eletric car with the range (>=50 miles roundtrip) and speed (>=65 mph) that I need. Does the Slashdot community have any experience, wisdom, or advice on choosing an alternative fuel car?"
"I'm currently considering:
- Toyota Prius, a hybrid sedan
- Honda Insight, a hybrid two-seater
- Honda Civic GX, a compressed natural gas (CNG) powered sedan
retro electric car (Score:2, Interesting)
Convert a car (Score:2, Interesting)
Just note that you'll probably lose a lot of trunk space unless you want to risk running out of Natural Gas between trips.
how about an electric porsche convertible? (Score:4, Interesting)
http://www.renewables.com/ElectricSpyder.htm
Prius (Score:4, Interesting)
The only problem she had with the car so far was running over accident debris that slashed a rear tire. Other than that, its supposed to have an incredible warranty. Something like 10 years. Toyota knows this is an experimental car, so they want to know what kinds of problems we have. None so far.
a couplet of ideas (Score:5, Interesting)
First, the Corbin Sparrow [corbinmotors.com] really seems to taking hold in places like Los Angeles and to a lessor degree Atlanta.
However, the lowest emissions vehicle around is a bicycle [ceejbot.com]. I mean this in all seriousness. The Bay area has a uniquely nice bicycling climate, and since you already have one car, you don't have to give up the occasional hauling-of-big-stuff cars are good at. And don't underestimate the health benefits of such daily exercise. I love it since you don't have to take extra time out of your day just to go to the gym.
In the Bay Area, there's even a service to shuttle bicycles over the Bay bridge for $1 [transitinfo.org].
Re:BIODIESEL (Score:3, Interesting)
To learn a little bit more about Biodiesel [biodiesel.org] try HempCar.org [hempcar.org], the hemp car (as the title may suggest) is a car developed to run on hemp as a Biodiesel [biodiesel.org]. They are currently driving it across Canada. Sure, not a commercial solution and probably not legal in the US. but it gives you an example of one Biodiesel [biodiesel.org] solution.
Biodiesel (Score:5, Interesting)
Hybrids really don't count IMHO as 'alternative fuel' vehicles, since they use two fuels that are exceedingly ordinary: gasoline and electricity. They should qualify for partial EV credit, and they're great for reducing fuel consumption, but without E85 they just aren't 'alternative fuel'.
I would recommend a late-model Volkswagen diesel and biodiesel as a true 'alternative fuel' vehicle. Diesels are more efficient, create less CO2 and other greenhouse gases, and last FOREVER. I just recently purchased a Mercedes diesel with 362000 miles on it, and I expect to get at least another 130000 miles on it with proper care and feeding. My car can't take 100% biodiesel without some fuel-line upgrades (bio eats rubber away since it's more oxygenated than petro) but any diesel since 1994 can take 100%. Another option, particularly in colder climes or with older cars, is B20, which is 20%bio/80%petro. Biodiesel doesn't contain sulfur, and is naturally oxygenated enough to prevent smelly particulate exhaust. In fact, tailpipe exhaust smells like french fries
Couple interesting Wired links on biodiesel:
here [wired.com] and
here [wired.com]
Even non-biodiesel is a better global environmental choice than gasoline/petrol since it's less intensive to refine. Diesel creates more NOx, large-particulate exhaust and sulfur (which lead to smog and acid rain), but the balance of impact is in its favor overall due to the efficiency of diesel engines. Also, if we could press for low-sulfur diesel, NOx could be handled with catalytic converters.
Oh, did I mention that biodiesel can be made from any biological substance that contains triglycerides? Hempseed, soybean, even used cooking fats can be 'cracked' into biodiesel, leaving glycerin. What to do with the glycerin though, that's the main Q...
Re:BIODIESEL (Score:2, Interesting)
We make BioDiesel, and if you become a member of the Boiled Frog Trading Co-operative you can use our equipment to make your own too!
I own a VW Golf along with my brother and a friend. We run it off BioDiesel, works great!
BioDiesel is "carbon netrual" in the sense that the carbon the we're emmitting in our exhaust was sequestered from vegetables; so the carbon cycle is closed -- we're not adding carbon to the atmosphere. Fossil based diesel does, it digs up carbon from the earth.
Honda Civic Hybrid is great! (Score:4, Interesting)
I test drove this model a few weeks back, and it was an absolute pleasure.
The best part? Pulling up to a red light, and sitting there in complete silence, without wasting any gas. Ahh...
home made diesel (Score:3, Interesting)
my chouce would be the hybrid electric civic or the vw tdi based cars [vw.com], friends of mine say they are wonderful.
Air cooled Porsches (Score:2, Interesting)
That is the same thing we say about the older Porsche 911 cars. The air cooled heads can heat up to 400+ degrees (you don't want to much more than that) and burn the fuel very cleanly. They also get about 22 - 25 on the highway, and in the high teens in town. Bear in mind that we Porsche drivers are not the most light footed people in the world. Those mpg figures are comming from a car with carbs or Mechanical Fuel Injection (MFI). The air flow metered CIS injected cars did even better.
I know of many Porsches that have had the Catalitic Converter removed, and they still pass the emmissions (some are in CA) with better numbers that almost all watercooled engines (includeing 4bangers).
It's a great little car (Score:3, Interesting)
It had plenty of amenities too (CD player, AC, power locks and windows), rode quietly, was comfortable enough for a long trip, and didn't feel like it would blow away in a strong breeze. If I hadn't already purchased a new car 2 years ago, I would seriously consider one of these.
Of course, my opinion doesn't substitute for research, but on an aesthetic level I was happy as a passenger, and on a techie level I was all tingly at the thought of the reciprocating brake system recharging the batteries as we glided (glode?) to a halt.
GMFTatsujin
Alternative options (Score:4, Interesting)
Also, we drive an all-electric vehicle which though outside of the poster's requirements, may warrant consideration for anyone doing short-haul driving in sub-35 mph zones: the line of vehicles from GEM [gemcar.com]
We have been driving one for about 3 months now and use it for commuting to our offices and to downtown Portland. Neither commute requires us to exceed 25mph.
It has more pick-up than you might think. In the rain, the vehicle does a pretty good job of keeping water off you (my model doesn't have doors). There are doors available, similar to what you would see on a Jeep CJ, as an aftermarket accessory. It is an ideal neighborhood car.
Here are answers to some of the common questions we get, often in traffic.
Q. What the hell is that?
A. A GEM electric car, manufactured by Global Electric Motors [gemcar.com], a division of DaimlerChrysler Corporation. The specific model I have is the GEM E825 Utility Vehicle (Short Box).
Q. Is it street legal?
It is on streets with a speed limit of 35mph or below.
Q. How fast does it go?
A. 25 mph.
Q. How far can you drive it?
It varies based on the terrain you are driving it on and the ambient temperatures, but I have driven it over 15 miles on a charge. The stated range is 35 miles.
Q. How do you charge it?
It charges on household current.
Q. Stats?
A. From the GEM website [gemcar.com]
Curb Weight: 1160 lb. with batteries
GVW: 1850 lb. (Gross Vehicle Weight)
Width: 55 inches
Wheelbase: 71.1 inches
Length: 116 inches
Height: 69.5 inches
Turning Radius: 13 feet 7 inches
Q. Is it fun?
A. You betcha.
Get a RAV4 EV! (Score:3, Interesting)
On a semi-related note, in response to all those Slashdot readers who keep spouting the same crap everytime an electric car comes into discussion- yes electrics are cleaner even if you do have fuels like coal as the source (which is not a significant part of the power mix in CA) because it is much easier to clean fuel at one place than in every vehicle, and if you want to calculate environmental effects of the production of fuel, don't forget all the effects of making gas . Additionally, if you have the option of selecting your power source like we did (we chose Commonwealth Energy) you can in fact get your power from clean sources.
Several options for you (Score:3, Interesting)
Toyota RA4 EV [toyota.com] - yes it's an SUV but the NiMH batteries are supposed to last 100,000 miles, maintenance free; and it gets 126 miles to the charge; and it has all the creature comforts. I think it's kindof ironic all this high-tech stuff is being put in an SUV. Just think how much better the range would be if they'd put the same powertrain in a sports car with good drag coefficient and low frontal area. But, as far as I can tell this is the best new EV that you can actually buy right now. Only in California, unfortunately. I presume for charging it uses the GM paddle system like your EV1 but haven't confirmed that.
You could just get a used one on ebay; I was very tempted to bid on this [ebay.com] but decided to wait on an electric for now. Here's an electric S10 pickup [ebay.com]. I test drove one of these once; it's a lot like an EV1, same technology in a pickup. Supposedly you can buy these in California too, but I'm not sure whether new or used. Otherwise they tend to show up as surplus from electric-company fleet programs now and then.
How has your service from GM been? I was tempted to buy one of these S10s but I figured GM has been acting like they want to forget that they ever had electric cars, so what are the chances of getting good service 5 or 10 years from now? And these things are too complicated to fix yourself, probably. Whatcha gonna do if the inverter fails? AC drives are not common in conversion EVs, and tend to be rather pricey.
Finally, if you're not on the EV mailing list [madkatz.com], you should be. You will get a ton of good advice there; most of the subscribers are hard-core electric vehicle hobbyists who build their own conversions at home.
And congratulations on having a brain and being willing to put up with all the stupid naysayers out there, or the ones who keep repeating the same tired old objections about powerplants using fossil fuels (nevermind that they do it so much more efficiently than even the best IC engine) or "why don't you connect a generator to the wheels and make your own electricity." I'm always surprised how otherwise seemingly-smart people will laugh at you when you mention something about electric vehicles. Every new technology has to have its pioneers. And in the long term the earth isn't giving us much choice about switching away from fossil fuels anyway. This is why I do not advocate hybrid vehicles. You can conserve gas with those, but I think in any conceivable future there will always be some alternative way to generate electricity, so maybe electric cars are here to stay in one form or another.
And motorcycles? (Score:3, Interesting)
My Suzuki motorcyle would get over 50MPG on the highway (as long as I kept it under 85mph). Even the Honda Goldwings with the 1.6L engines were rated at 50MPG on the highway. Many mopeds and scooters get even higher mileage, some in the 100MPG range. Of these, some don't qualify to be ridden on an interstate, but most are vehicles that require plates and license to operate.
eCycle [ecycle.com] (oops, is that a deep link?) is working on a hybrid motorcycle that gets 180MPG (using diesel by the way). Pretty cool machine, I'd love to try one out, but with a top speed of 80, it would barely keep up with traffic on NY/NJ highways...
Re:Biodiesel and California air (Score:3, Interesting)
Modern Diesel cars do have catalytic converters, and other emission controls which enable them to have better emissions than gasoline fueled cars. If fueled with biodiesel, they have even better emissions.
Some Quick Math (Score:2, Interesting)
Total arable land in the US: 464 million acres
Max theoretical fuel output: 46.4 billion gallons
Annual gas usage in the US: 400 million gallons
Now, depending on the fuel economy inherent to bio-diesel as opposed to unleaded, this would imply that with less than 1% of the arable land in the US dedicated to making bio-diesel, there would be a surplus of fuel available.
So, I don't think this is a problem unless my numbers about rapeseed to biodiesel conversion are incorrect.
Just get a VW TDI (Golf, Jetta or Beetle) (Score:5, Interesting)
They do offer a 150hp TDI engine in europe which still gets really good gas mileage, but won't run on current US grade diesel (which is real poor). There is even a TDI GTI! VW/Audi sells six different diesels in Europe (1.2l, 1.9l - 90hp, 1.9l - 110hp, 1.9l -115hp, 2.5l - 150hp, V8 3.3l - 225hp[available soon]) compared to only the 1.9l - 90hp available in North America. When mentioning these horse power figures though, we must also think where this power is available. On the 1.9l 90hp it peak torque is available at just 1900RPMs with 155 ft/lbs torque up to the V8 3.3l which generates 355 ft/lbs torque between 1800 and 3000RPMs. I guess we can only dream of these really high output models.
Diesel is good, unfortuneatly it got a bad name in the US due to the amount of black smoke earlier cars and big trucks would put out (about 2% of US cars are diesel compared to over 25% in Europe. A properly tuned diesel shouldnt spew black smole and has gobs of torque which is great for driving around town(you won't win a drag race).
VW is really the only auto manufacturer who still offers diesel cars, and their prices start around 15k. Plus you get a car which is much nicer than a civic both on the in and outside.
I expect more manufacturer's to bring diesels over to the US once the fuel standards increase.
On a side note, is there any technical problem which has stop diesel electric hybrids in cars (they have diesel electric trains). Seems to me you would get a more fuel efficent car than a gas electric.
Re:fryer oil (Score:4, Interesting)
Apparently, since many of the restaurants they got their fat from had to pay to have their fry grease removed, they were more than happy to give it away for free. The article sez they drove clear across the U.S.
Re:Ethanol (Score:3, Interesting)
"3) It (Ethanol)'s kind of fuel-intensive to make. Planting, harvesting, fertilizing, insecticiding, AND DISTILLING all take machines that use fuel. If you get 20 gallons per acre (totally made-up) and you use 20 gallons per acre (again, totally made up) to make it, how "fuel efficient" is it?"
Any it does not cost money to survey, drill, extract, store, transport, store again, refine, store again, transport again, store again, and then dispense petroleum distallates (crude -> gasoline)? Just because half of that labor is done at far lower cost than farm workers (who have a strong lobby with bought politicians) by workers of oil companies who have their own competing political pawns?
Once again, elements of truth and elements of rhetoric in both arguments. Yes, ethanol burns cleaner and is renewable. Yes, it currently costs more to produce... for a number of reasons. But in either case, it costs money to make money, right? It takes energy to produce portable energy as well. The true technological advantages and disadvantages of ethanol may never be known, thanks to this political in-fighting.
Sidebar: what about the organized labor lobby for highway workers who pour asphalt every four years on every major road in the US? They have successfully negotiated a decades-long congressional moratorium on deployment on an asphalt replacement made out of the chopped up bits of discarded tires; millions of which fill up plots across America. The cost is half as much, and has twice the durability. So there would be less asphalt produced, and half the labor needed. WE CAN'T HAVE THAT, CAN WE??? Jimmy Smith won't be able to lean on his shovel for fiften minutes out of every hour then go back to grinding up the old road surface for $23 an hour (and pay his union dues) if we take away half of his work!!
Fascinating, how we let the lawyers, politicans, and corporatists rule us; and all the opposition that is out there are corrupt organizations masquerading as consumerists, special-interest groups, and employee-rights advocates, who are mainly just socialists who get a capitalist-sized paycheck. And we just sit around taking it, saying we'll vote for the other guy.
Hint: There is no other guy.
Re:a couplet of ideas: My cycling experience (Score:3, Interesting)
I've been doing the cycling thing ever since college. My experience is that a ten mile commute is very doable. The best part is that you wind up in killer shape from that. Ideally you'd live on the temperat west coast or the southwest. I dunno too much about the weather patterns of the Southeast, but I'll assume there's a couple of months out of the year where it's too hot to ride. When I lived on the west coast, my bike journeys were almost always in excess of eight miles due to various circumstances. Eight miles is pretty pleasant and fun unless you have to ride through mountains. Fifteen miles is doable, but not if you're on a tight time table and certainly not every day. Living out in the midwest the main problem I have is weight gain during the the two to three months where it's just too cold an snowy to ride. I find that if I'm dressed right, I can ride somewhat comfortably down to 15 degres F. After that I say F*** it. Getting back in spring takes a month before I'm totally with it. The other positive thing about cycling is that public transpotation is increasingly accomadating bikes. In Ann Arbor where I live the buses now have racks. In Philly where I'm going to be living, the trains let you bring bikes aboard during non-peak hours. This really extends your range. The other cool thing that I see happening in urban areas is that cities and conservation groups are making bike trails along rivers and other green ways. Depending on how they're laid out both can really cut down your time even if they don't cut down your mileage. No stoplights and no traffic after all. One not so postive development is that moutnain bike manufacturers are no longer putting brazings on frames for racks sturdy enough to mount panniers. The big thing right now is disc brakes whose fittings supplant those for racks. I replaced my panniers when they wore out with Dana Design Bomb Pack because it's a big day backpack that does not push your head downwards when you sit on the bike wearing a helmet. 'Course I'm still riding the same old bike, but I dream of getting a new one.
Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Jetta TDI has better mileage (Score:1, Interesting)
"Employing state-of-the-art mechanical and electrical design technology, eCycle is developing a 180mpg motorcycle. The motorcycle features a 219cc direct injected diesel engine and a 8kW electric motor drive. The weight of the motorcycle is 230lbs, with a top speed of 80mph and acceleration of 0-60 mph in 6 seconds. The target retail price is $5,000."
Last I read you can order one now, for slightly more, before their main production starts this year.
Re:Ethanol good, considered propane? (Score:1, Interesting)
Another possiblity would be a propane conversion. In B.C. canada, where I live and work at a gas station, I see a ton of larger trucks and v-8 cars running propane for a couple of reasons:
1) it burns very clean because it is a much simpler molecule than gas,
2) it is a LOT cheaper 44.9 cents/L as opposed to 75.9 cents/l for regular gas
3) it has a Much higher relative octane rating, about 95-98 compared to 91 or 94 for premium/ super-premium. This allows for much higher compression inside the motor, yielding more horsepower through-out the rev range
4) and lastly, no matter how big or old the motor, you will get basically waved through any emmissions test, even on a big Piggly 454 or 460.
The one drawback ; however, is that you lose 10-30% efficiency. It still turns out to be cheaper to run that gas: 50% percent cheaper minus max 30% loss in efficiency is a 20% gain.
Just my 2 cents on the matter.
Re:BIODIESEL (Score:2, Interesting)
Electric Sports Car and Conversion Options (Score:2, Interesting)
Another way to go is to find an electric car conversion shop or individual. Purchase a cheap ICE [mindbent.org] vehicle, spend another $6-$10K converting [austinev.org] it and you have a vehicle that will last as long as the body holds up that looks [austinev.org] like everyone elses car, but needs far less maintenence and no gasoline.
Or you could just do the whole thing yourself [evparts.com]. If done right your range will be between 40 and 60 miles per charge.
Remember Optima [optimabatteries.com] Yellow Top deep cycle batteries are your friends.