Diamonds - Are They Really Worth the Cost? 2388
hardDiamond asks: "I'm going to get engaged. I know my 4 C's. I know I'm going to get screwed by the jeweller, but that's okay: after all, a diamond engagement ring is a time-honoured tradition... NOT. Having checked out the goods, looked for the flaws, I found the biggest one of all. Diamond engagement rings are the creation of a well orchestrated advertising campaign for most of the last century - according to this article.
Would you buy one for the love of your life? I know my girlfriend would love a diamond, but ethically I have my doubts. Diseased-miners, child slave labour, cartel inflated prices... and as if that wasn't enough, diamonds have no resale value. Naddah. Zilch. They'll sell you the shit, but damn it, they're not taking it back at any price. So what have my fellow slashdotters done with regards to engagement rings? What's a good substitute for diamonds? My girlfriend understands my thoughts regarding diamonds, but deep down, I'm sure she would like a diamond. Even a small one." I've never even thought about questioning such a time honored tradition, but now I'm curious. Have any of you looked at the issues surrounding diamonds and found them wanting? What alternatives have you found and were they acceptable?
After researching this a bit, one of the key facts to surface is that 2-4.5% of diamond sales will go to finance terrorism or forms of violence. Such diamonds, for want of a better term, have been named "conflict diamonds". For those of you interested in following up on this subject, here are a few more links:
For those of you who have a subscription to Science News, the cover story, this month, deals with this issue as well.Fatal Transactions
Conflict Diamonds: Sanctions and War
The Campaign to Eliminate Conflict Diamonds
The Kimberly Process, which will attempt to track diamonds to their origin. This is to begin in November.
Opals (Score:4, Informative)
Canadian diamonds (Score:5, Informative)
They're called Polar Bear Diamonds.
Saphires (Score:2, Informative)
If you look around, there are many women who wear the saphires. Many women like my wife's ring. It is more unique and I didn't feel like I got screwed for the very reasons you describe in your post.
Show on Nova last week! (Score:5, Informative)
currently Gemesis [gemesis.com] is America's primary manufacturer. They are building a $25m factory for making better/ different colored diamonds. Currently they can make yellow ones, though the show showed clear, and fanciful colored ones (in testing it seems).
They are "real" diamonds, pretty much seeded carbon crystal. Any gemologist can likely tell you they are real diamond, albeit manufactured. AFAIK the cost is a little higher, if not compriable for now.
Re:Hmmm... (Score:1, Informative)
Progress in synthetics (Score:5, Informative)
A good account of the state of the art two years ago can be found in the transcript of a NOVA show on diamond synthesis: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2703diamo nd.html [pbs.org]
Practical rules for the purchase (Score:1, Informative)
If you don't have cash to burn -
1. Flaws are great if they can be covered by the prongs.
2. Crappy color looks better in a gold setting.
3. Choose size AND high flouresants (sp) over everything except naked eye flaws.
At the end of the day these things are friggin' worthless bits of highly compressed coal. So its the reactions of your wife's shallow and empty friends where you get your real money's worth... nothing pisses then off, and makes you look better than size and sparkle. Everything else is bullshit unless you've got cash to burn. In that case here's different advice.... Go for quality over size. If the word, economy or whatever goes to pot a quality stone will get you safe passage.
Re:Opals (Score:2, Informative)
www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/diamonds.shtml describes progress in making gem-quality diamond (yes, it's diamond, crystallized carbon in the right structure).
There's always rubies. Giving jewelry of some kind is a tradition that pre-dates DeBeers's marketing campaign.
One answer, eh? Ethical Canadian Diamonds (Score:4, Informative)
to quote: Canadian diamonds treasured by the worlds diamond experts. Sought after for their incredible beauty and brilliance. Mined in accordance to the highest ethical standards.
I believe everything I read on the Internet, of course, but hey, worth a look - especially if you want to REALLY surprise her with the kneeling and the asking and the whatnot.
Try Emeralds (Score:4, Informative)
Emeralds are actually more rare than diamonds, and so are worth more.
Not just advertising... (Score:5, Informative)
Premarital sex was not invented in the 1960s, and has in fact been around ever since just before the first marriage. Of course, back in the good old days, a good girl would never have sex before wedlock. However, some were willing to bend the rules once they were engaged. So, men quickly discovered that you could ask a woman to marry you, have sex with her, and then break off the engagement.
Up until 1935, this was considered an actionable tort in 47 of the 48 states. A woman who was deceived in this way could sue for the value of her lost virginity and subsequent difficulty in acquiring a husband. State legislatures passed laws against these suits in the 1930s and 1940s.
So, after this ability was removed, women needed a new way to ensure that a man proposing marriage really meant it. It became social custom that a man asking for marriage would post a performance bond equivalent to about twice his monthly salary. This bond would be forfeitable upon his breaking off of the engagement, but returnable if she broke off the engagement. This 'bond' was implemented as a diamond ring, because it was an easy way to, er, 'crystalize' two months of his salary in an easy-to-handle package.
In essence, the engagement ring is a private reimplementation of a canceled government policy.
Estate Jewelry (Score:2, Informative)
Bottom line, pre-owned jewelry is the easiest way to afford something you can't get at a mall store, and you won't get fleeced. :)
Re:Canadian diamonds (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.siriusdiamonds.com/ [siriusdiamonds.com]
Diamond shopping tips... (Score:2, Informative)
That new computer that set you back $2000 is going to be a boat anchor in a couple of years. How long do you expect your relationship to last? What are you willing to spend on it? (Because those "wife" and "motherhood" upgrades are going to make that ring look like chump change.)
Buying diamonds: Local mall shops are good for getting a feel for what the 4-C's mean. But for god's sake, don't buy from them. First of all, what they have is crap. Second, it's extremely overpriced crap. (Well above the "list" price.)
In most major cities there are some major diamond vendors. In Pittsburgh, they're downtown in the Clark building. They are worth checking out. These guys will sell diamonds at the "list" price.
Now check out BOMI [bomicorp.com]. Call them -- Their website is best used for the phone numbers. Bomi sells for under the "list" price. Their merchandise is top notch. And they do mail-order. (Sprite, if you are reading this, this is why your stone was 50% larger and a grade better in quality than you thought I could afford.)
Oh, and in case you've overlooked the obvious: Get it insured! Talk to the folks who are selling your homeowners insurance, renters insurance, or at worse, car insurance, and see about adding to your policy.
There are other countries... (Score:5, Informative)
Where?
Canada.
What? Canada?
There are only Igloos and Eskimos (Inuit) up there, right?
Not so, there are also Polar Bears.
http://www.siriusdiamonds.com/home.htm
If you're Canadian, buy Canadian.
If you're American, buy North American.
Just a suggestion.
Re:Terrorism vs. Cars (Score:1, Informative)
I don't like it much anymore, but I drive a gas powered car. I used to drive without much thought whether I had to go there or consilidating trips. Then, I grew up, learned a bit more, and decided, for economic, political, and environmental reasons, I shouldn't drive so much. So I walk, bike ride. Plan trips when possible to shorten mileage.
I own a smaller car now too. When I can afford it, I'll go for a hybrid. And after the hybrid, I'll look forward to H2 powered cars maybe.
Not everyone is up to the task though, and I mean that in a nonjudgmental way. That's part of the dilemna in the
Diamond Substitute (Score:2, Informative)
Liz
US oil consumed is mostly NOT from mid east (Score:3, Informative)
out of those countries we get oil from i do not know how many may be considered shady today. the enemy seems to change every few years. whatever your political views are, the only real constant pal the United States seems to have over there is Isreal and they are lacking the oil reserves that would keep the USA stocked happy. it seems like everyone else manages to upset us one time or another (or they were also too friendly with the USSR and therefore no longer our friend) argh.
ride a bike, it solves more problems than you would ever know.
The Atlantic article is really interesting (Score:5, Informative)
Moissanite: A politically correct alternative (Score:2, Informative)
Barry
[bad link URL ] Re:Moissanite: (Score:1, Informative)
did not work when I tried it.
Re:alternatives? (Score:2, Informative)
The rest of the post does generally hold however. All you really are doing is moving the problem elsewhere. Though you really have to be wholistic about this, you can't say I want to have good clean gems, but buy any sweatshop stuff, it just doesn't jibe.
Re:Cutting off ring... (Score:1, Informative)
My wife had a custom-designed stainless steel ring with azure, lapis and turquoise. (Very eye-catching and not that expensive.) When it got caught in some equipment at work it took her finger off. BAM! Just that quick.
Not the whole finger, just all the skin and muscle down to the bone. The paramedics said if it had been gold or platinum, the ring would have broke and she'd have kept most if not all of her finger.
The ring? It survived mostly intact, dammit.
She doesn't wear any rings now. Neither do I.
Re:US oil consumed is mostly NOT from mid east (Score:1, Informative)
Why don't you check the CIA factbook for the amount of oil that is imported from the region? You would see that a large majority of it comes from Arab nations. The other significant sources of crude are Venezuela, Western Africa (Offshore drilling), the North Sea and Russia.
As for diamonds, Angola, Botswana, South Africa and Russia are the biggest exporters.
Please get your facts straight before posting utter rubbish.
Material Science Ignorance (Score:4, Informative)
Dude, I don't want to make you sound stupid or anything, but the lack of information about materials out there is astonishing. It really bothers me. I feel obligated to straighten out your misconseptions. After all we don't want the misinformation you spread to spread too far.
So let me start with the hardness issue:
The hardest materials known to material science today are ceramics, and your right, diamond is at the very top of the list. Now anyone whos taken a material science course at college should know that hardness is closly related to tensile strength. Now here are the tensile strength values for both diamond and top of the line titanium alloys (note these are approximations):
Strength(diamond) ~ 8000-10,000 MPA
Strength(titanium) ~ 1000 MPA.
As you can see, diamond is ten time stronger than titanium and therefore ~ ten times harder.
Its 3 times stronger than steel and half the weight.
Really? I don't think so buddy, good steel is actually stronger than titanium. These are the figures for the hardest possible steel and hardest possible titanium alloy (approximate):
Strength(titanium) ~ 1000 MPA
Strength(steel) ~ 1900 MPA
You are almost correct about the weight:
Density(titantium) ~ 5 MG/m^3
Density(steel) ~ 7.5 MG/m^3
If you want to be anal about it, the weight titantion is 3/4 the weight of steel and not 1/2
Anyway, it's alright... not everyone's a mechanical engineer out there.
"Ah yes, another problem that can be solved by bending"
Re:There are other countries... (Score:2, Informative)
Also in north america we can get opals and saphires of rather good quality. In maryland, there is a company that makes synthetic rubies of the highest grade.
ONEPOINT
Re: but we ARE different from our parents. (Score:3, Informative)
What worked well for them may very probably NOT work well for us:
you're ignoring a major factor here: the pill.
I believe the pill is the major reason for the sexual revolutions and backlashes of the second half of last century. Seperating procreation from sex was a major destabilizer for monogamy (that, and the the women joining the work-force, thus giving them options they didn't have before).
My point is: the human race is still in the after-effects of the seperation of sex from procreation, and in this respect, we ARE different from our parents.
Our descendants may go even further down this road: even today you see lesbian couples using genetic material from sperm-banks, what will the notion of marriage mean, in genetic
I guess they'll live in ingteresting times
Re:There are other countries... (Score:3, Informative)
All of the Canadian Diamond mines have been bought by DeBeers so that the price of diamonds does not go soft. This is because the Canadian diamond mines hold a HUGE respository of diamonds. One of the largest.
Me personally I refuse to buy a diamond because it is absolutely artificial. Ok there is tradition and the likes, but even there are limits on that topic. Do something original.... Get her some native jewelry or approved coral or other truly rare item.
Re:One word: liquidity (Score:2, Informative)
Not true. Entire businesses like this one [bullock.com] make their living buying used diamonds. (Disclaimer: This is a commercial site. I know the owner. I have no financial stake in the business, except that I designed their web site.)
Bullock also has a short guide [bullock.com] explaining why diamonds have low resale value.
Re:alternatives? (Score:2, Informative)
How to get cheap diamonds (Score:1, Informative)
Claddagh rings instead! (Score:2, Informative)
I pointed out that an engagement ring on a man was unusual, but would be neat. Then she reminded me that traditional Claddagh rings serve for both engagement and wedding rings.
The traditional claddagh design has a heart, held by two hands, with a crown on top of the heart. I think this is also called the "Royal Claddagh". There is also a "Finnian Claddagh" that lacks the crown, for obvious reasons.
Claddagh rings date from 17th century Ireland. Worn on the right hand, heart facing out, the ring indicates that the wearer is available (I offer my heart to you). Worn on right hand with the heart facing inwards indicates that you are engaged. The Claddagh as a wedding ring is worn on the left hand with the heart facing inwards.
Both my lady and I have some Irish blood, and we like quaint old customs. [This was well before the renewed interest in things Celtic.]
The most common, and probably most traditional claddagh rings are all metal. We chose to have rings custom-made with gems in them.
My wife's ring is white gold; the heart is a ruby as red as blood. My ring is yellow gold, with an emerald as green as the forest.
Diamonds? Pah! Everybody has those.
Re:One word: liquidity (Score:3, Informative)
The diamond market crash is old news. It's done. The fact is, even given the strong output of mining, there is still a lot of labor involved in producing diamond jewelry. It's estimated that you have to move 250 tons of diamond-bearing earth to retrieve 1 carat of polished, gem-quality rock. Then the stone has to be polished, cut, polished, examined, appraised, stored, marketed, shipped, stored again, appraised again, marketed again and sold at retail. That results in quite a bit of markup, but there is a wide enough demand for diamond jewelry to fuel this business and allow these companies to make a profit, and while it's quite a tidy sum, it's nothing like the rediculous markups they used to achieve.
Furthermore, contrary to your initial argument, the resale value does drop significantly when you walk out of the store with it. It always has. You've never been able to recapture the retail value of diamond jewelry by reselling it. Most jewelery retailers won't even talk to you about buying back used diamonds, leaving you to choose between exchanges which will offer slightly less than wholesale to you, pawn shops which won't even offer that, or newer secondary markets, like ebay, where you can probably capture something slightly higher than wholesale for it.