Developing a 21st Century Public Transportation System? 39
Terje Mathisen asks: "Oslo has a pretty good public transportation system, consisting of local trains, subway, metro, trams, buses and ferries (to get across the fjord, and to some of the small islands). Now they want to put screens on all the central stops (about 300), showing the exact time until the next bus/tram will arrive. This will requires GPS units on the buses and trams, radio communication back to the central, some form of comms link back to each stop, and daylight readable screens. On all the remaining stops, they want to use SMS messages, so that you can use your cell phone to query the system. Do you know about similar setups anywhere else? How well do they work? How expensive was it to develop, and what costs were associated with the deployment and maintaintenance?"
krefeld and cologne, frg (Score:1)
Wai! (Score:1)
similiar systems... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:similiar systems... (Score:2)
Let me guess, never been to Britain?
Sydney has it, kinda (Score:3, Informative)
What they do here is have little metal detectors about once a kilometer on the track, and at all station stops. they're all wired with cabling that goes along the rails into signal boxes that presumably have some telco connection to the nearest station, which each have connections to their adjacent ones.
What this does is signal to a control room somewhere where each track is. the control dude[ette] knows where all trains in his/her area are at any time. ALL public transportation systems should already have the ability to know exactly where each of their trains are at any time, to avoid collision.
Sydney stations (mostly) have electronic notice boards, displaying the time to the next train, what its stops are, and how many cars are on the train (so you can move to the appropriate place on the platform, shorter trains don't go to both ends of the platform, of course). I think the times here are put in manually by the drones, because they are way, way off once in a while, and other times have TOTALLY incorrect information. In this case they usually come on the PA system in their characteristically overly loud mumbly Australian voice saying things to the effect of "see the TV up there? bugger it! Next train goes to wwhsdkdjsidaoj asdoijasd a stopping at wlaldj alskfhw, shodija, oiweha, oasjas, then all stations to lkasd."
I wouldn't worry too hard about seeking a wireless solution, when the train people already own (or at least control) all the land that the rails rest on. Using a wired solution here is probably more reliable considering the weather up there. (isn't it rainy & cold all the time? i dunno.)
Toronto & Boston (Score:2)
Boston is promising displays with each vehicle's location and estimated time until arrival on it's new "Silver Line" Bus Rapid Transit route. According to the FAQ [allaboutsilverline.com] on the special Silver Line website [allaboutsilverline.com]:
While the line opened up a few weeks ago I don't know if the message boards and kiosks are up and running yet.A great source of information and discussion on urban transit is the newsgroup misc.transport.urban-transit [misc.trans...an-transit] (also readable through Google [google.com].) There you'll find a collection of very knowledgable (and sometimes not so) folks sharing and debating information on systems & proposals around the world.
DC (Score:3, Interesting)
Why not use similar track sensing technology? I am sure some of it is already in place, and it would work for all track-based transportation. GPS would work for the busses, but as we know from the yro section, they can now triangulate a person's location with cell towers. why not use Europe's more advanced cell network to accomplish this? The boats are a more difficult thing though, GPS would have to be used, as LORAN isn't quite accurate enough
Not sure I would want that ... (Score:2)
Why wouldn't I want it?
Well, assuming an imperfect world where some people have enemies
No, I'm not paranoid that some secret agent is going to helicopter in
Seattle has something similar (Score:2, Interesting)
I use the MyBus.org page for the intersection right next to where I work ( FAIRVIEW AV N & DENNY WY [mybus.org]) practically every day. It's really nice because I clearly see when the next bus will arrive (and if it's going to be late) and I know to leave my cube about 5 minutes before it shows up. No more standing around in the Seattle rain waiting for the bus!
Nextbus (Score:2)
www.nextbus.com [nextbus.com]
Re:Nextbus, which has had this for years (Score:2)
The system doesn't care about schedules; it learns real behavior from the data it receives.
This was a low-budget operation; one person developed most of the system.
Re:Nextbus (Score:1, Flamebait)
Utah TRAX (Score:2)
This sort of setup seems to be standard on most systems. It looks like Olso goes just a little farther by incorporating data from all modes of public transport into one system. Seems like the next step for most transit systems IMO.
Montreal's Solution(s) (Score:2)
(1) 'Telbus'. With your cell, call the number listed on your bus stop and get information on the next couple of busses.
(2) 'Tous Azimuts'. (http://www.stm.info). Calculate the shortest route between two points, using metro (subway), light-rail and bus.
(3) Online timetables, etc. Not that interesting, but useful nevertheless.
(3) Boards in the metro stations that indicate when the next metro is coming. This is AFAIK currently a pilot project.
(4) Fat racist fifty-somethings that yell horrible things in incomprehensibly thick accents over the metro's PA system whenever some bubble-headed Hilfiger-clad teen causes a ruckus by, eg, holding the door open for thirty seconds so his ugly girlfriend won't break her ankles by running in this season's shoes. Very effective technology.
Ottawa Solutions (Score:1)
Essentially, get a car or take a cab.
Boston Silver Line (Score:1)
ObLink: www.allaboutsilverline.com
Allen
London (Score:1)
London + Others (Score:2, Informative)
- London UK: At every tubs stop and about half the bus stops there's a sign saying when the next bus/train will get there. I'm not sure how the bus one works (maybe just pulling it off a schedule, as it's never very accurate) but the train one is generally bang-on
- Montpellier FRA: Brand-spanking new LRT with fancy displays at each stop giving exact times
- Kyoto JPA: At every bus stop is an odd sign with the name of your stop and the three preceding stops. When the bus reaches any of the three stop sbefore yours, that light goes out. Maybe radion transmitters at each stop?
Re:London + Others (Score:2)
I believe that the buses carry transponders that are read at points along the route. I agree that it's never accutate. I pass a bus stop on Piccadilly on my way into work which has one of the displays, and I make it a little game to compare which buses it says are coming against the ones that actually pass. The display has *never* been right in the two years I've been passing it.
but the train one is generally bang-on
Only if the rest of the world used the special 100-second minutes that London Transport seems to use! And on the Victoria line it's never reliable to use the platform indicators as a guide to where the trains are terminating. I always check the front of the train and, northbound especially, it often doesn't match the indicator.
Portland, Oregon's solutions (Score:2, Informative)
Several years ago, TriMet [trimet.org] (the main public transit service in Portland) installed GPS/radio units on every bus in the system. Originally, these units only gave information to drivers and those transit system managing folk, enabling them to know the exact location of each bus. The units are mounted next to the farebox facing the driver, and display the current time (I always set my watch from that), how early or late the bus is, and if the bus is on route. The boxes beep and alert the driver if the bus runs more than 1 minute early or 5 minutes late, or if it deviates from route. In the last year or two, they have begun to install 4-line LED displays at major bus transfer points, which indicates the time until the next few busses. A typical display might read something like "15 to Gateway TC due; 6 to Gertz Rd 6 mins; 15 to Gateway TC 8 mins; 15 to Gateway TC 4:50" (The display goes to "due" when the bus is within a block or two of the stop; any bus due to arrive more than 15 minutes from the current time has the scheduled arrival time rather than countdown displayed). This information is also available on the web for all bus lines at all stops at a page on the TriMet site [tri-met.org]. I'm not aware of telephone access to this information, though schedules are available from an automated phone system.
On the TriMet MAX light rail, the information is obtained from loops buried under the tracks. Time until next train arrival (Similar display to what was depicted above, with Red Line or Blue line and one of a few destination endpoints in place) is displayed at a few major stops. This is unfortunately not as accurate as the GPS system, and can be sometimes several minutes off. I heard one story where a bridge malfunction trapped all the Red Line trains on the wrong side of the river, yet the displays would count down to the arrival until "Red Line to Airport: Due" would come and pass and no Red Line train would come. This is obvious a serious breakdown in the system in a number of ways, and really shows that a public address system (something our city's transit lacks) is necessary. No matter how good the system, it will fail eventually. (For another example of that, read this amusing story [everything2.com] about a conspiracy of a bus door, a mailbox, and safety mechanisms getting a bus stuck at one stop for several minutes.)
Finally, on the Portland Streetcar [portlandstreetcar.org], a tram line overseen by the City of Portland rather than the regional TriMet organization, each streetcar has a NextBus unit onboard, which works by means of GPS. Perhaps the most comprehensive example of this sort of information available in Portland, every single streetcar stop (with the exception of perhaps two or three system which have no practical access to power and/or telecom) has a two-line LED. The display rotates between displaying: the current time, the NextBus URL, "Portland Streetcar: No Smoking on Platform", and the time until the next two streetcar arrivals (e.g. "Streetcar due in 3min & 18min"). This information is also available on the NextBus website for every stop in the system, and I believe this information is also available via WAP.
Re:Portland, Oregon's solutions (Score:1)
Taxes in Norway (Score:1)
"How expensive was it to develop, and what costs were associated with the deployment and maintaintenance?"
Income tax in Norway ranges up to 55% [odin.dep.no]
Or the clever Soviet-era cheap alternative... (Score:2)
If a sophisticated tracking system (whether via GPS or via transponders at waypoints) is put into place for other reasons anyway, of course go ahead and mine the data for a sophisticated time-announcement service instead.
By the way, I've never seen a CRT or LCD-panel system in a public transportation system that was in very good condition for long. Even if vandalism isn't a concern, general wear from air pollution, bad weather, cleaning fluids, CRT burn-in, LCD failures, etc. could make the displays expensive to maintain. Will the displays also be used for advertising or important public information that can't be conveyed on printed signboards? If not, I'd look into the cost of a simple electromechanical or digital alphanumeric display showing the times. It's less glamorous and versatile, but might be much cheaper, especially over time.
Re:Or the clever Soviet-era cheap alternative... (Score:1)
Gothenburg (Score:1)
Helsinki Trams (Score:2, Informative)
NY has something similar (Score:1)
Re:NY has something similar (Score:2)
Actually, it's when you feel the breeze.
-russ
Copenhagen, Denmark (Score:1)
some of the the major bus lines have a gps system that relays information to some bus stops.
The bus company [ht.dk] recently finished testing two systems... unfortunately I can't remember the winning system, but SkyBus lost.
The lines with most passengers and busses use the GPS system to keep an even distance between them at peek hours... this avoids the busses from clotting together and reduces the average waiting time for each passenger (works beautifully!)
There isn't an SMS system (although I know for certain that it's been discussed, I don't know where that project is currently).