BSD Still Won't Run on IBM ThinkPads? 54
omega_cubed asks: "'You've successfully installed FreeBSD, now your computer is going to hang at boot up!' -- That was what I just recently suffered. I've been running Mandrake on my ThinkPad X20 for almost a year. But the lack of high speed internet connection over the summer prevented me from keeping up with the various patches/updates. Many services--sendmail, apache, etc.--were shutdown one by one because of security vulnerabilities. Recently I decided that instead of trying to catch all those patches I missed in the last few months, I might just as well do a clean install of FreeBSD. I've done what I think was all the preparations necessary: I backed-up all my files, checked all the hardwares for possible conflicts (on FreeBSD.org) and supports, downloaded the ISO image. And I decided the computer should be able to take it. Unfortunately, I didn't come across the old slashdot article reporting a possible conflict between IBM ThinkPad's BIOS and FreeBSD's filesystem. So last night, after much struggling, I installed FreeBSD. It finished, rebooted, and the computer now just hangs at bootup (here's a more detailed report on what happened). It doesn't even go into BIOS. Does anyone have experience dealing with this? Is there anyway I can update the BIOS? The diskettes provided IBM were not able to boot the computer, and I am at a loss here. Thanks."
Re:how about.... (Score:1)
Re:how about.... (Score:1)
BSD experience is much more useful for someone with commercial UNIX aspirations.
There is no single OS that rules, and learning that will be the best lesson you EVER learn.
"Total domination is bad. The Microsoft dominance already badly misled people about how to choose systems. Instead of 'what tool do I use for the job' it's 'well it was shipped with the box'. Linux is a tool, Windows is a tool and so are numerous other systems. It's really important people go back to looking for the right tool for the job. That will never always be Linux. No single tool can do everything well." Alan Cox
Re:how about.... (Score:2)
Nothing to do with the OS (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Nothing to do with the OS (Score:2, Informative)
That used to be the case, but many modern BIOSs now have more integration with the OS than previously.
In this example, the IBM Thinkpad BIOS is confusing the BSD disk partition with a special partition used for waking from hibernation.
Re:Nothing to do with the OS (Score:5, Informative)
Not being able to get into the BIOS or updating the BIOS has nothing to do with the OS installed.
---snip
Actually, in this case it does. The BIOS in many modern laptops (and in some desktops) has a built in suspend-to-disk routine. When being powered up, they check the harddrive for the image they saved last time they shutdown. The FreeBSD partition happens to look like a suspend image to the ThinkPad BIOS.
Re:Nothing to do with the OS (Score:3, Informative)
What you may be thinking of is the CMOS - which is in and of itself a separate piece of hardware.
No, not really... (Score:3, Informative)
The BIOS itself is still in ROM. If the BIOS was only on disk, you'd have a Catch-22; the BIOS would be needed to load itself from disk. (Well, I guess the system could have a second BIOS in ROM to load the first one from disk, but then, what would be the point of the BIOS on disk if there was already one in ROM?)
Anyway, while you can't "get into the BIOS [setup]" on those Compaqs without the hard drive connected, you can update the BIOS by booting from a flash-update disk. The BIOS setup program, although probably matched to the particular version of the BIOS on the ROM, doesn't need to be there just to flash the ROM.
Now, the problem with these particular IBM BIOSes is that, as soon as they're powered on, they see what they interpret to be a suspend-to-disk partition on the HD and try to load it to RAM and run it, without giving the user the opportunity to ignore the partition, or to run the bios setup program, etc. With the system in that state, not only can the user not boot off a floppy to repartition, but they can't even boot off a floppy to flash a new BIOS that doesn't try to resume like that onto the system.
Now, yes, you need a working BIOS if you want to boot off a floppy disk to flash-update your BIOS. And if for some reason the copy of the BIOS on the ROM won't work with disks anymore, the only solution is to yank the BIOS ROM chip off the motherboard and either fix it with a programmer and put it back on, or replace it with another chip.
But when you think about it, as the 2nd parent post suggests, if IBM releases a new BIOS for the malfunctioning systems that doesn't try to do the resuming, it's still possible to install it by unplugging the HD, booting off a flash-update floppy through the old BIOS (which will work fine as long as the hard drive with incompatible partitioning isn't attached) and doing the update, and then plugging in the hard drive again.
Any fairly new PC-land techies out there reading this still confused? I imagine that this particular hole exists in a lot of these peoples' backgrounds nowadays. So, it's time for:
Pre-boot PC Software Guts for Newbies
Terminology time.
(Assume I'm talking about x86 "IBM-compatible" PCs, unless I say otherwise.)
BIOS stands for Basic Input-Output System, which is a fancy name for a bunch of standardized routines that can be called to do things with the hardware (everything from hard drive access to keyboard input and more), and includes the Power-On Self Test (POST), the first thing that runs when you turn on your system (the thing that, if all the tests are passed, tries to load an operating system, and if not, brings you oh-so-useful error messages like the infamous "No keyboard attached. Press [F1] to continue.") Usually the BIOS routines have minimal functionality and sacrifice performance for compatibility. Also, these routines aren't really designed with modern operating system features (like memory management and multitasking) in mind. Because of this, once the POST passes control to the operating system, virtually all post-DOS ones only use the BIOS routines for as long as it takes to load more advanced drivers from the hard disk, and then they start using those drivers to run the hardware instead. The PC BIOS spec is very crufty; it contains a lot of routines that don't make any sense for even later DOS-era systems. (e.g. Bonus points for anyone who can explain how to get their post-2001 BIOS to display a "No ROM Basic, System Halted" message, and quadruple bonus points for someone who can produce a post-2001 BIOS that has a working ROM Basic of some sort hacked on. =) ). The BIOS is typically stored on a ROM (read-only memory) chip, although in recent times it's usually a flash-updateable ROM chip, so maybe the term "ROM" is a bit misleading.
CMOS stands for Complementary Metal-Oxide Semiconductor (if I remember correctly), which is a type of memory technology used in computers; but on PCs, CMOS has also misleadingly come to refer to a particular small hunk of battery-backed CMOS used to store some system settings. This kind of system data area is much more sensibly referred to as PRAM (Parameter RAM) on Macs and NVRAM (Non-Volatile RAM) on more proprietary unix workstations.
Re:No, not really... (Score:2)
Thankfully they've changed the way it works to an actual CMOS chip, with no apparent interaction with the HDD itself.
I've got an old(er) Presario in my workroom at home, and I'd be glad to ship it to you if you're willing to foot the S&H (a little strapped for spare cash right now). It's got no HDD or RAM, so it only weighs in at about 50lbs. ;)
Actually, it's a semi-conductor (chip) planted on the motherboard, which stores the system settings, date, and time. There are several ways to test this theory;All methods will, with varying degrees of success, clear the CMOS settings. Providing you don't bend any pins in the process, your computer should continue to function as normal after you've re-assembled and re-configured it.
For the record, NVRAM is a different technology altogether. NVRAM does not require power to sustain its settings ("Non-Volatile RAM") and is very expensive per MB. It resembles a stick of RAM, rather than a semiconductor chip. Cisco routers make use of NVRAM, and I've held it in my hands many times over (often while trying to justify through a school board that it would behoove them to spend the money to upgrade the lab routers so that the students could use the new IOS, which they had already paid for but could not use. For the record, one copy of the IOS cost more than the NVRAM would cost for all the lab's routers)
Re:No, not really... (Score:2)
I didn't think, however, that Compaq would make systems that would refuse to load the MBR bootloader from disk if there was no setup partition... That seems a just a little too crazy, even for them.
Re:No, not really... (Score:2)
Re:No, not really... (Score:2)
>The whole point of my post was that a) it is possible to require a hard drive to enter your system's setup, and b) that Compaq systems did not make any sense (except, I suppose, to a Compaq engineer).
Up there I was talking about the BIOS, not the BIOS setup. Of course, I mean no disrespect to your very splendid and worthwhile offtopic rant, if that's in fact what it is. =)
>Thankfully they've changed the way it works to an actual CMOS chip, with no apparent interaction with the HDD itself.
Uh... If there was ever no "CMOS" of any kind, there would be no pre-boot saved settings, and thus no need for a program to configure them at all (on the HD or otherwise). Not to mention that the system wouldn't be able to maintain the system block when powered down. Perhaps you mean that the setup program was moved to ROM?
>>CMOS stands for Complementary Metal-Oxide Semiconductor (if I remember correctly), which is a type of memory technology used in computers;
>Actually, it's a semi-conductor (chip) planted on the motherboard, which stores the system settings, date, and time.
Well, yes, as I said in the next sentence, that's what people often just call "the CMOS" in the PC world. But it could be unnecessarily confusing for some people if I don't explain the bad naming (since this strikes me as the kind of crowd that's bought its fair share of 40xx ICs, even if only at Radio Shack). Though to really nitpick, perhaps I should have said "digital logic technology".
Re:No, not really... (Score:2)
Erm... I meant to say:
Not to mention that the system wouldn't be able to maintain the system time when powered down.
Not enough coffee yet. Sorry. =)
Re:No, not really... (Score:2)
Non techies complain about acronym overload, sad to say I suffer the same fate. ;)
As to my rant, it wasn't (technically) off-topic, it was regarding the strange behaviours of large corporations when it comes to their system BIOSes. IBM has all sorts of weird ideas, and that's what makes FreeBSD on the ThinkPads such a treat to use.
The IBM desktops (PC300**, NetVista, etc.) use a BIOS that's essentially a glorified information source. If it doesn't find your HDD, CDROM, or other installed equipment - you're SOL (this straight from an IBM field tech, BTW). You can change the boot order and a couple of passwords, and of course the date/time, but as to the stuff that really counts, you have to trust in Big Blue.
I haven't totally followed the issue, but I understand that changing the partition identity to that of an OpenBSD partition will allow the present ThinkPad BIOS to boot to "OpenBSD" which is, in fact, FreeBSD. So as long as it's possible to fool the big boys, problem solved. {smile}
I had one person try to explain to me that you use the CMOS to save settings to the BIOS. No matter how much logic, reason, or explanation I gave him, he adamantly refused to budge on that point. See, he took a year of physics/science courses at a prestigious local institution before attending another college for a networking course. See, he has a home LAN in his house, so he's one of those exspurts.Worse still were the even more 'green' types standing in the room who, for some reason, trusted him more than they trusted me, so now they all believe that a "BIOS" is some magical piece of hardware where information is stored, and that a "CMOS" is a menu system where you set the date.
Of note is the fact that most of these people refer constantly to "NIC Cards"
Re:No, not really... (Score:2)
Acer Aspire 1300XC notebook, new.
"CMOS setup" is called SCU and has three(!)
options: date, time of day and boot order.
Oh yeah, during boot-up, hit escape to change
the boot order *sigh*, f12 to boot from network
or f2 to enter SCU.
Re:No, not really... (Score:2)
NVRAM isn't a technology, it's a descriptive name. On some workstations, the NVRAM uses EEPROMs, on some it's just battery-backed DRAM.
Google is your friend (Score:5, Informative)
You might want to remove the hard drive, and see what happens when you boot it without a hard drive in. Maybe this will give you some sort of clue on what is wrong with it.
If your absolutely have to, buy a 2.5" hard drive adapter for your desktop machine. You can then format the laptop hard drive from that.
2.5 adapters (Score:1)
Remove Hard Disk (Score:3, Informative)
If the floppies still don't work, you have more to worry about than the HD.....
If they do work, flash the BIOS, and be happy on your way...
good luck!
Re:Remove Hard Disk (Score:2, Insightful)
Which after thinking about it, doesn't sound like much nonsense, especially on the TP X series, which doesn't have a default floppy...
W
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werd smiler [=
Hm? (Score:3, Informative)
If I remember correctly, I think I blew away the restore partition before the installation, but I didn't screw around with the BIOS at all.
Am very curious as to what might be causing your problem.
Re:Hm? (Score:2)
Am very curious as to what might be causing your problem.
---snip
You probably did not use "dangerously dedicated" for your partitioning scheme; the guy who submitted the story probably did.
Call up a mid-level ibm manager (Score:1)
Quite simply that is not an acceptable state for a piece of hardware you paid a good chunk of cash to be in, without any hardware problems (eg it was that way when it left the factory), with no recorse offered. I would go so far as to say you could sue them the cost of a comparable laptop if worst came to worst.
Re:Call up a mid-level ibm manager (Score:2)
Thinkpads stick extended system information on a certain area of the hard disk. This guy either wiped it out, or installed another partitition that looks exactly like the system partition.
Back in the old days, IBM would tell you to go away if you complained about this problem. Hopefully they have become more enlightened.
Re:Call up a mid-level ibm manager (Score:1)
There is still the matter of wiping the disk - but he should be able to do that before the writing the bios info back to the disk...
Oh - and just ignore my sig for this post ;)
Duke
Re:Call up a mid-level ibm manager (Score:1)
I guess that their reply would be, sorry we don't support BSD. Go away.
Re:Call up a mid-level ibm manager (Score:1)
Re:Call up a mid-level ibm manager (Score:1)
Re:Call up a mid-level ibm manager (Score:2)
For the record, last time I checked a dozen ThinkPads remain in a pile with an uncertain future.
Dual booting Win2K and FreeBSD on a T21 (Score:3, Informative)
The only two things that I can't get to work under FreeBSD (starting from 4.5-RELEASE through 4.7-RC) is the Intel/Lucent Mini-PCI card (10/100 Eth + modem) and the integrated audio. I don't have any CardBus cards that I need to use with the laptop, so no worries for me there.
A couple of things to try is to update the firmware to the latest version, check to see if there are any hard drive firmware updates, and try to disable anything that you don't really need in the BIOS. Did that with mine and it works great. No if only I can chuck Win2K off of the hard drive permanently (I need to use the Shiva VPN client and other Windows-only tools for work... grr).
Sure it does... (Score:2)
I made a converter between laptop and standard desktop IDE cables, so that I could format the drive if it failed to boot properly -- but it did.
Install the most recent BIOS & controller upgrades and go to it.
Re:Sure it does... (Score:1)
Just a quick question, since you are the only one here I think that actually managed to get in running on the same model as my machine.
Can you tell me which version BIOS you are running currently? Since rumour has it some of the later BIOS upgrades in the T and X series in effect put the bug back in.
Thx. W
Re:Sure it does... (Score:2)
Bios version 2.21 with a date of 2001-10-19
No problems running FBSD on a thinkpad (Score:3, Informative)
Might want to check your APM settings in the BIOS. with how to suspsend your lappy.
TRY NETBSD! (Score:1)
Why? (Score:1)
I have a 56k modem and I get all my updates just fine.
Jesus, what the hell is up with this? (Score:1, Flamebait)
But the lack of high speed internet connection over the summer prevented me from keeping up with the various patches/updates. Many services--sendmail, apache, etc.--were shutdown one by one because of security vulnerabilities. Recently I decided that instead of trying to catch all those patches I missed in the last few months, I might just as well do a clean install of FreeBSD.
So, let me get this straight: You have a perfectly good operating system that you're pretty familiar with, but it has a few security holes that you didn't (at one time) have the bandwidth to fix them, even though a bunch of one-off fixes, when downloaded one by one over time, wouldn't really have taken much effort or time to keep up with at all.
So, instead of upgrading your Mandrake install, which worked perfectly fine, or patching your install to eliminate security holes now that you have bandwidth, you'd rather destroy all that customization and work you probably put into your installation to run an operating system that you quite clearly have not researched enough, which will probably also get deleted once you lose track of security updates for it.
My question is this: are you retarded?
- A.P.
Re:Jesus, what the hell is up with this? (Score:2)
Thanks everyone, and a few more details (Score:1)
There's still one question:
I searched google groups and couldn't find the answer, because I heard that newer versions of BIOS might not be better in this case: i.e. IBM might have reintroduced the BIOS bug. If anyone has an X20 working, can they tell me which version BIOS to get? (I can always try them all... {= ).
Regarding to some questions posted:
If you'd followed the links, you would have realized that my primary goal WAS to install Debian. And FreeBSD is just a sidetrack since I will need to flush my system anyway. There's some really bad RPM incongruencies on my computer when it was running mandrake, and many things won't run properly.
And then there's the question as to why would I need a high speed internet to update my computer. There's nothing preventing me from getting connected: except for an ISP. I don't plan to get service from an ISP and pay 30 dollars for the two months I will be at home to use dialup. My parents run American Online, there's no way I can tap into that resource. Furthermore, there's the problem with those Winmodems. In short, without a lan connection, I have no connection at all.
W
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werd smiler should've tried OpenBSD
Works ok on OLDER thinkpads (Score:1)
Yes its old, but it does the job so why buy a new one.
Now if i could just put in a larger HD with out the machine freaking out.