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Hardware

A Universal Power Bus? 90

Posted by Cliff from the an-idea-whose-time-may-have-come dept.
mjpalm21 asks: "A friend of mine recently sent me this story on a new universal power technology that charges devices through your desk. This is a cool idea, but it seems complex. I have long wondered why there isn't a universal power bus (UPB) along the lines of universal serial bus (USB). UPB would work like this: You would buy a n port UPB hub for your desk, and then all of your electronic devices (cell phone, PDA, computer speakers, modem, phone, hubs etc.) would plug into the hub via a standard UPB cable. I would think that the device manufacturers would be all over this as it would reduce their product cost (no need to bundle a power brick), reduce their packaging cost (smaller box), increase customer satisfaction (I know I would be happier), and give them another device to sell (the UPB hub and all those cables)! Why hasn't this happened yet and what would prevent it from happening?"
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A Universal Power Bus? More

A Universal Power Bus?

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  • Already invented (Score:5, Funny)

    by nocent ( 71113 ) on Thursday October 10, 2002 @10:27PM (#4429330)
    They have already invented such a device. Take a look here [radioshack.com]

    You can connect your devices using these [radioshack.com] universal cables.

  • Cause if your computer, your monitor, your speakers, your network hub, your PocketPC/Palm, your laptop, your cell, your mp3/MD/CD player, etc. all draw power from the same source (your UDP "hub"), there's a good possibility that you're going to blow a fuse or throw a circuit breaker. Your house wires are only rated at 25/30 amps...
    • Hmmmm.... lets see here.

      115V * 30A = 3450W

      Monitor
      150W=High 17inch usage
      Computer
      1100W=enermax 460W power supply
      Speakers
      100W=decent sized computer speakers
      network hub
      10W
      pocket pc
      35W=HP Jornada
      cell
      35W
      laptop
      200W

      for a grand total of:
      1645W
      even with a 25% error it still is 2056W. Thats a lot of extra room for mor things on one outlet
      • Three comments:

        1. total = 1630 W, not 1645 W

        2. How does your 460 W power supply translate into 1100 W? If it's a 460 W power supply, it uses 460 W. Where does the 1100 come from?

        3. Here in Canada, most houses/apartments use a 115/120 V circuit with 15 Amps circuit breakers on receptacles. 25 and 30 A circuits are used for large appliances & electric heaters.

        Dave
        • 1. agreed

          2. agreed (not sure what the original author was thinking)

          3. I'm lucky enough to have a dedicated 30 amp circuit with a quad outlet in my computer room just because I'm a nut and don't want my stuff shutting off due to silly things like too much load. ;)
          • I'm lucky enough to have a dedicated 30 amp circuit with a quad outlet in my computer room just because I'm a nut and don't want my stuff shutting off due to silly things like too much load. ;)

            Ugh.
            My house was built in 1909, and has every outlet and light in the house (except for the recently (like in the last 50 years) added stuff) on 2 15 amp fuses run through ungrounded(!) knob-and-tube wiring.

            Gotta do something about that. Damn those yokels for not anticipating the power needs of the house's owner 100 years down the line!
        • 1. Alright, so I can't do math, what your point?

          2. The 460W is the output wattage. I was basing my numbers off of enermax's [enermax.com.tw] site for the EG465P-VE(G)(W) FMA, for peak amperage: 9.5A at 115V: 115*9.5=1093~=1100

          3. To be honest, I had no idea what the average house had for current ratings, i was just basing 30A off of the parent post's numbers.
    • quick look under the desk..
      powerboards adding up to 8 sockets...
      one extention cord
      one plug...

  • Voltage (Score:4, Insightful)

    by vincent99 ( 146865 ) on Thursday October 10, 2002 @10:29PM (#4429336)
    Different devices require different voltages.. if the device is going to have a power brick built-in to it to convert from "UPB" voltage to what they need, then your UPB is what's known as a "power strip".
    • Does anyone ever read the article before commenting on it?

      Most of the commenting people here so far fail to understand what's being proposed. Here's a quote from the article:

      Multiple devices with different power requirements can recharge all at once on a single pad (the size can vary): When equipment is placed on the pad (at any angle), it communicates its power requirements through its exposed contacts, and then the pad's hardware sends the right voltage to the right contact points. When a device moves, the pad reconfigures itself instantly.

      Dave
      • Does anyone ever read the body of the question? The linked article was just there to show what the author feels is a complex solution to the problem. If you would have read it carefully, you would have realised that his whole point was based upon a different methodolgy entirely.
        • No I think the question was the same, except using cables instead of a pad. Plug this cable into the brick, device communicates its power requirements and it gets sent the correct voltage through the universal power cable. Sounds simple to me! :)
    • I would think that dc-dc step-down or conversion could be done in a much smaller space than ac-dc conversion. And the power could be filtered already before the conversion had to take place. Don't most laptops take battery voltage and convert it to several different voltages internally? I mean, the cpu runs at less than 2 volts, the memory might run at a different voltage, the hard disk might be 12/5 volts and the screen might be something different altogether.

      I think wall-warts are large because they convert a high-power ac source to dc.

      • It's not possible to easily transform DC (increase or decrease voltage). You either need an electric motor and an AC generator, or you need to do weird stuff with approximated sine curves.

        AC step-up or step-down is so easy because of the principle of electromagnetic induction.

        • It's not possible to easily transform DC (increase or decrease voltage).

          Do you know what this [fairchildsemi.com] is?. Of course, lowering DC voltage is more practical than raising it (though recent semiconductor advances are changing this).

  • It'll not happen soon (Score:5, Interesting)

    by rtaylor ( 70602 ) on Thursday October 10, 2002 @10:35PM (#4429363) Homepage
    Remember back to the 80s and how clunky things seemed to be? Most of that was due to the battery. Everyone used the same batteries to help bring down costs, but then the final design was around the battery.

    Since formed batteries have dropped in price significantly, they can make nice sleek designs and work the battery in rather than the other way around.

    Whats this have to do with your question? If everyone could use the same power source, it would mean all devices would be required to support N Volts at N Amps (or set internal resistance accordingly). This means the addition of a step up or down DC-DC transformer to all devices, and taking a step backwards on battery design as you must accommodate the lowest common demoninator again.

    However, not all is lost. There is a slim possibility you could add a layer of communications with the block and request a specific voltage from it, thus placing the logistics into the power block.

    Figure out how to do that in a small package, and it may simply become the AC outlet. Quite clunky to accomodate at the moment, so specific individual bricks rather than an über brick is far cheaper, smaller, and much less prone to failure.

    For now, just be glad the brick isn't an integrated part of the device.
    • I realize the article says the universal charger is under development. The big problem is failure. When it mis-communicates, you don't drop a packet and retry. Odds are you're device will fry as the power supply may set itself to too much or too little a voltage level causing circuits to fail.

      But, I'd like them to proove me wrong.
      • There are plenty of ways to insure commication was correct before transmittal of power happends. Of course yes, the power brick would have to never send the wrong kind of power. I've personally had a few motherboards fry because the power supply box failed.

  • The quick response is clearly that you already are supplied with 110VAC, and thus a power strip is your best bet. But that's not what you want, mostly because that's too bulky. Understandible.


    The bigger issue is that all these devices have different power requirements. Some want 9VDC, others 12VDC or 5VDC, or even 6VDC. Some want 500mA, others want only 100mA. And all the connectors are different. But you want standards. To do this, you would be required to build a box that could supply any voltage. And at any current. This means the device when connected would have to send a signal back to the power station that says what voltage it's expecting and how much current it wants to draw. Then, the power gets turned up. And if everything goes well there isn't any surges when extra devices are plugged in.


    Actually, this question comes up on /. quite often--it's almost routine. The answer is almost always the same, too--just too complicated and ends up being too expensive for the circuitry. People typically like simple devices, with easy to change parts. Wallworts do that. Basic 110 AC is just fine. No need to reinvent the wheel until people are really crying for it.


    • Hmmm. I've always inderstood that you could plug a device that wanted, say 100mA into a 500mA brick - it simply 'sipped' from the firehose. The 500mA just ment that the brick could provide 500mA, but it diden't mean that 500mA were forcably shoved down the wire....

      Have I been just lucky all these years?

      • You're correct. 500ma means that the power supply can deliver 500 mili-amps, depending on the load. current = voltage/resistance, so if you vary the voltage (assuming the resistance stays mostly the same as it's a property of the device), your current draw will increase/decrease. You're quite safe plugging a device that requires 100 ma into a 500ma power supply, as long as the voltage matches. Try it the other way around and you'll smoke your power supply, though.

        • Re:Besides the obvious (Score:3, Informative)

          by n9hmg ( 548792 )
          Technically, he's correct. Unfortunately, since device manufacturers also specify all characteristics of the power supply, some are planned around very specific voltage/current profiles, in other words, actually planning on a certain voltage drop at a certain current draw. This is most common with rechargers, wherein at the start of the charge cycle, the device relies on the power supply sagging under the load to prevent charging the battery too fast. Give it a more robust supply, and you overheat the battery.
          This, however, is only an excuse, and applies to only very simple and inexpensive devices, and not even many of them, any more. The real reason is forced incompatibility. Batteries and power supplies commonly have elaborately-keyed connectors, both physically and electrically. Even though the device reqires only some minimum current capability within some voltage range, in some cases the connector actually has to provide power and ground on some undocumented combination of the pins, and has to turn on and off some pins based on power sense in others, provided by the device. This is just to prevent aftermarket replacements. Did anyone ever try to buy a replacement dongle for an ethernet or modem PC card? It's commonly barely cheaper than to purchase a complete replacement for the device. open up one of those automotive power adapters for a cell phone, and see what it is. I've never seen one yet that did any voltage or current modification. THe phone just lives with whatever voltage it gets, as long as it's not too little to run on, or too much to handle. The cost is in the needlessly-complicated and fragile connector. Power to portable consumer devices is still largely closed-source.
  • The're really cool - You can plug all of your devices into them and they just work - no configuration, no fuss and aparently it's compatable with allmost 90% of the electronic devices on the market:

    Check it out: here [radioshack.com]

  • read the damn question before you post. He wants a STANDARD cord with a standard end.

    And I will get modded to hell... but bite me and have a nice day :)
    • Let's face it, I can use a two or three pronged power cord and power nearly every device made by simply plugging it into the wall, in almost any coutry in the world.

      Sure there are some countries that use a different system, in which case you need an adapter or equipment that was manufactured for use in that part of the world.

      But, in no country that I know of, will you have a problem if your device/power cord works in one location. You will never encounter a problem going to the next building and not being able to use the same cord!

      Universal powersupply is already WELL established.
    • Douglas Adams had it right when he decided that all DC inputs (on all types of kit ) should have a standard connector and run on 12v - after all it's available in all cars.

  • Different needs (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Deanasc ( 201050 ) on Thursday October 10, 2002 @10:49PM (#4429418) Homepage Journal
    I don't think I have two objects in my house that take exactly the same voltage. It would be wasteful if something used more electricity then it needs just to fit some universal adapter.
    • I don't think I have two objects in my house that take exactly the same voltage.

      Assuming you live in the USA, all of the objects in your house-- with the exception of your dryer-- take the same voltage: 120 VAC.

      Did you maybe mean amperage? It's true that every device draws a slightly different amount of current; mechanical devices can even draw different amounts of current at different times, depending on (for example) whether the fan is running at high speed or low speed.

      I think what the "ask slashdot" and the linked article are really talking about is devices that draw DC current. The electricity coming to your house is AC, and some devices-- like my little 8-port Ethernet hub, for instance-- have very simple power circuits in them that are only equipped to handle DC current. So an external box is required to convert from AC to DC.

      I certainly wouldn't complain if there were a universal standard for delivering DC current, so all those power bricks could disappear. The telco industry has already solved this problem by deploying 48 VDC in their equipment frames. Equipment that goes in telco racks takes 48 VDC directly, through a standard plug. Consumer gear doesn't work like that, though.

      I say we skip it and just figure out how to deliver DC via microwaves... only without all the cancer and whatnot.
      • No actually they don't take the same voltage. Whether the transformer is a black box on the plug or hidden inside the case they take the house current and step it down to what the individual device needs.

        In any event, the little black boxes are all different. If I tried to shoehorn my cell phone into the box for my Palm Pilot I'd fry both devices. If there's a universal standard power brick then that power is wasted for devices that really don't need that much juice. The devices would still have to step down the power or else other devices would be underpowered.

        • Well, we're approaching the limits of my practical understanding of electricity, but it seems to me that machines don't consume volts at all. Machines consume joules, and when they consume joules over time, we talk about machines consuming watts.

          Now, joules are delivered to a machine when electric current flows into that machine. The rate of joule consumption (which is measured in watts) varies with the amount of current drawn (which is measured in amps).

          If I have a device that draws 6 amps, and I connect it to a circuit that can provide 15 amps, does that mean I'm wasting 9 amps? No, it doesn't. It's not like my box is drawing all 15 amps and discarding all but 6 of them somehow. So no power is being wasted there. I'm using all that I draw.

          So I guess what I'm saying is that I don't really understand your comment, "If there's a universal standard power brick then that power is wasted for devices that really don't need that much juice."

          Am I missing something?
          • Volts is difference in electrical charge (lowered by a few orders of magnitude) from the positive power connector to negative power connector. So volts is basically how hard the electricity is being push/pulled through.
  • 'nuff said.

  • Reasons NOT to do it (Score:4, Informative)

    by ka9dgx ( 72702 ) on Thursday October 10, 2002 @11:05PM (#4429493) Homepage Journal
    For discussion, lets just assume that everyone agreed that 5 Volts, +/- 10% was good enough, and made it a standard, in the same manor as 110-125 VAC/60 Hz, and 220-240 VAC/50 Hz is for most of the world. It would then be feasable, with low cost, to do this.

    However, things still get murky, even in a 5V standard world. You run into issues

    • Over current protection of the source
    • Transient protection both ways
    • Accidental polarity inversion
    • Ground loops
    • Noise
    • Devices supplying power inapropriately
    The easy (cheap) way around this is to specify a standard charger that is specifically NOT interconnectable to anything else, thus resulting in the plethora of incompatible devices that frustrate you.

    My choices for a standard

    • 5 Volts, TTL standard power with a new connector
    • 13.8 Volt lighter plug, perhaps a mini version
    • Standard plug/polarity/voltage sizes for barrel connectors.
    • A new 5 volt, 3 phase 10Khz standard power connector
    3 Phase power is cool, too bad it doesn't make it into more homes.

    --Mike--

    • These [powerwerx.com] are becoming the standard 12V (13.8V) connector in the amateur radio emergency services. Several companies make power strips [powerwerx.com] that use them. It doesn't help with the multi-voltage end of things... Unless everyone just standardizes on 12V, with regulators/converters in the device to drop it to what it wants...

  • Replying to all the sarcasm about power strips: (Score:5, Insightful)

    by uradu ( 10768 ) on Thursday October 10, 2002 @11:22PM (#4429570)
    What he's asking for is a very sensible idea. Airlines have already picked up on the notion that providing a low voltage power source for laptops would be quite handy by removing the need for the power brick, and have helpfully come up with multiple standards <g>. If you think that the idea of a standard low-voltage power source in the modern household--and especially around the computer--is so wayward, just look at the growing number of USB peripherals that are learning to make do with 500mA at 5V in order to live entirely off the USB bus.

    In fact I think USB will turn out to be the motivator of a revolution in standardized low power busses, because manufacturers will get used very quickly to the ubiquitous availability of a power source for their TLL logic and stepper motors without having to worry about power supplies. This has never really been the case in the past, serial and parallel devices (almost) always requiring separate power sources.

    The standard could be a lot simpler than what some are suggesting. A system could consist of an under-the-table brick that plugs into a wall outlet and contains a switching power supply, with a low-voltage power strip going up to the desktop. The connectors could be simple USB-plug-like affairs with pins for ground plus 12V and 5V, satisfying the vast majority of consumer electronics devices. The standard would specify what the maximum current draw could be at each voltage level, and device manufacturers would simply design their devices towards this standard. Almost everything around your computer except for the CRT and laser printer can run off 12V and a few amps.

    Face it, the 110V power system was designed for exactly the same reasons, to provide convenient and standardized power to the devices in your household. Except that that was at a time when your average consumer electronics used tubes, ran its signals at dangerously high voltages, and also doubled as space heaters. In this growingly low-power world, 110V AC just isn't all that convenient anymore. So don't be surprised if the homes of the future will indeed sprout new wall sockets.
    • how about firewire? it supports higher voltage/amperage/whatever, and a similar plug design.
    • I don't think so.

      Almost no laptops run off of 12V. DC/DC converter (power brick) still needed.

      The only reason they supply low-voltage DC rather than AC is because it happens to be
      a) Safer
      b) More readily available on an airplane. (I think quite a bit of the plane is 48V, but it's easier to step it down to 12 with a switching supply than to make a good AC inverter to give even a modified sine 120VAC, let alone a proper 120VAC sine.)

      12V is chosen simply because it means that with a mere physical adapter automotive power supplies for laptops can do dual duty. (And with a physical adapter available at Rat Shack you can power anything powered by the cig lighter plug from airplane power)
      • > I don't think so.

        Which part?! If you're talking about the low voltage airplane connections, you might be right, I threw that in without knowing much about its actual implementation. Still, a DC-DC inverter requires less hardware and bulk than your average transformer and could easily be built into the plug itself.
        • I was indeed referring to airline power.

          Good DC/DC inverters are a *little* smaller than an AC/DC switching power supply, but not much smaller. Switching power supplies usually don't have a transformer, or if they do, have a much smaller transformer since transformers are more efficient at higher frequencies. So switching power supplies are pretty small too. See the 90W Dell power bricks for Inspiron 8200 laptops. The DC/DC version of said PS isn't much smaller, since DC/DC converters need a decent-sized inductor themselves.
        • Although I have very little experience in electronics, what would be the purpose to of a DC/DC inverter? Wouldn't it just make a +12DC into -12DC? Or did you mean converter?
          • > what would be the purpose to of a DC/DC inverter?

            To convert an unstable source of DC into a stable one. If you look at your average 12V car power system, the actual voltage on the line can fluctuate incredibly and can include all sorts of spikes and noise and drop-outs, especially at start-up. Your average digital electronics would be fried within minutes, or would constantly reboot at best.

  • You think companies would actually buy into this? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by rayd75 ( 258138 ) on Thursday October 10, 2002 @11:50PM (#4429675)
    I suppose Dell who designed my notebook's power supply with a bastardized triangular connector would sign on to this, huh? And Motorola, the company with cell phones that utilize flat connectors compatible with nothing else... and batteries that are engineered to be incompatible between models despite being the same voltage and shape and employing the same connectors and locking mechanisms? (Think StarTac vs. Nextel i1000)
    I think the point here is that companies seem to like being the only source for these items. Someone decided a long time ago that being the only source for accessories increases profits and no one has thought about it since.

  • Smart Power Supply (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Gerry Gleason ( 609985 ) <gerry@geraldgl[ ]on.com ['eas' in gap]> on Thursday October 10, 2002 @11:55PM (#4429690)
    The system described in the article sure sounds cool, but they don't provide enough details to tell you how it would perform technically. A picture or graphic would have been nice too. It also seems like a design concept by someone who doesn't really understand practical problems. This is furniture, not a practical well engineered system. If you've got a few grand to dump into a desk, but then you can't take it anywhere. What do you do at home, or on the road?

    There are a host of real problems with current power adapters and such. First, wall warts are really pretty bad power supplies. Most are very simple and very inefficient, so even if you had to get intermediate voltages by regulating down DC to DC in some cases, it wouldn't be much worse. They are hot even when nothing is plugged in, that can't be efficient.

    My idea is that you could have a well designed switching supply that could take in a range of AC or DC voltages (say 12-270), and put out what you need. The smart portion could be a pretty standard chip that could be used in a wide variety of supply capacities and voltage sets. I'm thinking about alternative power situations too, peddle power, solar cells, fuel cells, wall power around the world.

    You just plug it into whatever you got and it senses it and configures itself to whatever is there. Integrating a storage device might be nice too, and the controller would properly take care of battery maintanance as well so you get the longest possible battery life for the technology. It might be complex to design, but it wouldn't need a very powerful processor so the controller chip could be cheap once it is designed.

  • Here is why you haven't seen this. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by crapulent ( 598941 ) on Friday October 11, 2002 @12:02AM (#4429713)
    First of all, the manufacturer would not save any money in this scenario. People have come to expect to be able to purchase a device, and for the most part, receive everything they need for it to function. A manufacturer that left out the traditional "power brick" would be asking for customer dissatisfaction when people realize that they also need an additional accessory to power it. It's not worth it to exclude the cheap wall-wart, which probably adds $5 or less to the bottom line. This also means that the people who are interested in this idea get to pay twice: once for the built in conventional design and again for the sophisticated (and hardly inexpensive) power hub.

    "Well, that may be, but wait until it's ubiquitous, then they can stop including the conventional power supply."

    This is true to some degree, but there are plenty of situations where it would be inconvenient to require a power hub. Sometimes you only have one DC-powered device in an outlet or a given area. In fact, I would say the majoriry of the time this is the case. Certainly, most people could think of a situation where they have more than two wall-warts, but outside of the computer room these cases become more rare. And your whole argument is based on ubiquity, that everything would use this universal standard. I don't think that's necessarily practical. You may be tempted to imagine a range of power hubs, so that you can choose a "lite" version for just these situations. I submit that the wall-wart is exactly this, and that trying to sell as a seperate device that which has always been included (at a higher price, no doubt) is just asking for customer dissatisfaction.

    "But surely, as the ueber-nerd that I am, it would eliminate a big mess?"

    It would help, no doubt. But really, does it buy you that much? Every device still has a power cord. Yes, you would not have to deal with a number of smaller "power bricks", but you still have to deal with one rather large power brick. Don't expect this device to be small and slim like your network hubs. Instead envision something along the lines of a computer power supply. So you save some weight, and some volume, but in the end all that you're really getting is not worrying about how to make all those wall-warts fit onto power strips. And again, the people to whom this will be most useful (those with a number of devices) will likely already have a large number of power strips, since they're power users anyway. For the more modest installation of one or two devices it's nearly as bulky and doesn't gain you much.

    There's also the issue of whether such a device is even practical to build. It would obviously have to support a number of output voltages, which complicates things a great deal. On top of that, since this is a general device, you cannot make assumptions about the relative output strengths required. On a computer power supply, you optimize the design for the 3.3V and 5V outputs since those provide a great deal more current than -12V and -5V supplies, which are mere trickles in comparison. For your "power hub" you can really make no such assumption -- remember that the point is to be able to run anything and everything from this device. And that's the real kicker, it will have to be rather beefy, since it runs everything. Things like modems may not draw much, but things like speakers certainly can. Yes, you could make these things in a range of varying output levels. But again, if you're going to have a "lightweight" version for only a couple of devices, you're better off from a marketing and price standpoint to just continue using wall-warts. So much for ubiquity...

    Let's not even get started on the issues of who makes the standards, since after all, every consumer electronics manufacturer has to agree on a standard (and then follow through on it) to make this useful.

    So, to summarize:

    Nontrivial engineering to provide arbitrary outputs

    Only really benefits a minority of "power users" (ugh! bad pun) yet requires universal acceptance

    Implies industry-wide cooperation and adherance to a standard (yeah right)

    Does not lower product cost (in fact it increases total cost significantly for those who adopt it)

    In the best case, reduces clutter marginally

    I'm sorry, it's a nice idea but I don't think it's realistic.

    • You're making this way to complicated. Very few devices need negative voltage sources (mostly RS-232 which is being phased out by USB). I'd say you could go a long, long way on 3.3 5 and 12. Voltages below 3.3 are better for welding than distributing power (I squared R). I've seen solid state converters which kick out respectable current at several voltage taps about the size of a standard network hub. I don't see cost savings as the primary motivation. Products could continue to sell the cheap vampires. But they could also be made compatible with a UPB plug. Vampires cost the world billions in wasted power since they give off heat even with no current draw. The solid state converters are more expensive, but also vastly more efficient. The main engineering problem I foresee is putting safety limits on aggregate current consumption. That probably adds more cost to the system than you would think. I think it's entirely a bootstrap problem. This is the kind of thing where government can step in for a few years and change the landscape. The oil industry would have never eliminated leaded gas on their own accord (not until they were sued blind). There must be a few billion walwarts in America alone. The environmental aspect of that leaves a lot to be desired.
      • First of all, I think you'd need few more options than "3.3, 5, and 12V"... say, for example 9V. But ignoring that, I fail to see the point of this if it's not universal. What good is it if it only powers the most common devices? The poster mentioned speakers, and those generally require either a split rail (-12, 0, 12) or something higher than 12V, such as 24V. So right there, that's one thing for which you need an extra (and quite large) power lump.

        My overall point was that if this is not universally standard, it's just another brick, and doesn't really solve anything. Giving it limited functionality will not help its adoption at all.

        And re: wasted energy in power bricks (the small magnetization current in the iron cores of transformers.) Sorry, that will always be a problem until you can make switching power supplies cheaper. It's starting to happen, especially in cell phone rechargers, but don't expect any fast changes. The vast majority of people who buy consumer electronics don't know nor give a flip about what kind of power supply it has. They just want whatever's cheapest.

  • Ok, I haven't really heard of this but for example make a product:
    Offer a semi-large plug that offers a variety of DC voltages (your big 110/120/220/240/ect AC things still get the wall or power strip), say 3.5,5,6,9,12,15, and you just get a plug that would plug into that and convert into what ever your (likely) portable devices needs as a plug for its power.

    You would still have a power supply of somesort powering it, but if nothing is using a certain voltage then you could maybe disable that voltage on the PS so it wouldn't waste power generating a voltage that isn't used (or maybe have it look and see if there is something wanting that voltage so it enables the voltage, so if nothing is plugged in, the power use would be minimal).

    Just an idea that isn't just a powerstip (well in a way it is, just that it is for low-voltage devices)
  • so they can gouge you for replacement adapters for laptops?

    those things cost around $125 across the board!
  • well two actully UPB2 and UPB3

    the connector shape is open to the manufature, the UPB2 spec is that the power connector have 1 positive and 1 ground, there is a later revision UPB2.1 that has a third lead ground, this was added for safety, if your manufature used the UPB2.1 standard it can support legacy UPB2 outlets with Vise-Grip TM conversion tool.

    UPB3 spec is that there is a + - and common sometimes called by it's brand name "3 phase" (this was a name came up by WestingHouse and Tesla)
  • I would buy it... I wonder if they could connect other stuff (like ethernet) this way... No, not wireless.

    Here's a link [mobilewise.com]
    and A technology overview [mobilewise.com]
    and Another link [pocketpcmag.com]...
  • I'm really suprised no one mentioned these yet. They're the funny connectors you plug into your internal hard drives. They provide 5V and 12V DC. This should be more than sufficient for the overwhelming majority of trinkets people need power for on their desk.

    All that's needed is a sheath around the four wires, and some cute molding between this sheath and the Molex connector.

    Why in the world has no one thought of this before?

    If molex connectors aren't your thing, then do something with the mini connectors you use in your floppy drive (although if you're sufficiently clueless it is possible to plug these in reverse polarity.).

    • Have you ever tried unplugging a hard drive? Not exactly easy to do, is it?

      Molex connectors require far too much force to be any good for "outside the box" connections, and would wear out too quickly for regular use anyway.

  • USB is as close as you're going to get. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by hamjudo ( 64140 ) on Friday October 11, 2002 @12:54AM (#4429919) Homepage Journal
    USB provides 2.5 watts. There are some things out there that recharge their batteries through the USB connector already, and it is a much requested feature for the rest. There are a few things out there that use the USB for power, and don't even bother with the data pins.

    The parts for a USB interface (with data) are probably still more expensive than a wall-wart type power supply. I think the cheapest wall-warts are around US$1. USB interfaces are 2 or 3 times as much.

    If the USB connector is just used for power, then it's the cost of the connector, which is well under $1.

    USB prices will continue to drop, so no other low power bus is likely to be cheaper for the next few years.

    If USB becomes more popular, it will probably develope a higher wattage version (or it may have already).

  • They make too much from the cables... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Wee ( 17189 ) on Friday October 11, 2002 @12:56AM (#4429926)
    When I was at Qualcomm, I did some work for the guys writing the PC-to-phone connectivity software. A lot of effort went into the software. They bundled it with a data cable (or a data/power combo cable) and sold it for like 60 bucks (or something outrageous). They also let people download the software for free. See, they made a killing selling the cable. That's where the money was.

    They change the connectors/pinouts on every rev of a phone for a reason, BTW. There's no way they would have gone in for a plan to adopt a standard connector. They may have done something like make a cable that has the UPB end and the proprietary phone end, however. But I doubt it.

    -B

    • Maybe it was different before, but since Kyocera inherited Qualcomm's handset division, *every* post-Kyocera phone uses the same data connector. I'm quite happily using my 2035a's data cable with my 6035 Smartphone.

      There are only about 2-3 different power supply connectors, all variants of your standard barrel connectors (There's also power available on the data connector). The 2035a and almost all phones of its era have the same power supply, and then the 3035 and 6035 have a different power supply (common to the two of them).

      But since the cables are Kyocera proprietary, they can still gouge you on the cables, while saving on manufacturing and design costs. :)
      • I was oversimplifying, sure. The connector for the Q-phone and the Thinphone, for example, maybe could have been the same, but probably got changed for technical reasons as well. I never did much work with QCP, so I'm only going on talk heard in the halls and around the tables at bldg V cafeteria...

        -B

  • USB has 4 wires, correct? Ok, so you have a "hub" with USB leads, on two of the wires you run +/- 5V @ 100ma, and the other two @ 5V @ 500 ma

    fire wire cables will run it's native voltage on the first pair of wires, 12v @ xxx ma on a second pair of wires, and 12 v@ xxx ma on the third pair.

    everyone else will have to get step down/up adaptors that either combine 2 cables or degrades it down to 7.5v or somthing.

  • My experiences (Score:3, Insightful)

    by BlueLightning ( 442320 ) on Friday October 11, 2002 @02:38AM (#4430203) Homepage Journal
    I tried something like this, and it failed dismally. Ground loops and interference made the device useless. I eventually gave up and went back to plug packs (or "wall warts" if you prefer).
  • i think the main point of such a thing would be that, when a device got plugged into it, it would send the exact voltage and amps the device needed so the device has no need for some clunky AC adapter... it could decently lower the price of a few of your electronics, but not so much that you might save money versus the price of the UPB... anyways, this would probably never catch on because the average computer user is already confused enough when setting up a new computer (how someone can need extra help setting up wires that are coler coded, and for the most part only fit in one spot, is beyond me)... that same user will get pissed when you tell them that they need a seperate device to supply the electricity to their electronics, and complain that they cant just plug them into a standard power strip...
  • I'm not too knowledgeable with the different RJ connectors but how about something that has like 8 wires though it one being positive and the others being known values of Volts, Watts, Amps negitive. (I always had problems with these terms in physics.)

    So you'd have one singular connector and the device you'd plug into could choose which value it wanted depending on what contact was used.

    There's probably *so* many problems with this. :)

  • Power over IP (Score:2, Insightful)

    by rsatter ( 265340 )
    Forget those wallwarts and powerhubs lets just use Power over Ethernet [powerdsine.com].
  • Induction is a method for powering RFID chips, those things they put into dogs, and track packages with. I wonder how many watts you can generate with a reasonable RF induction field. Then, the device placed in the "field" could recharge itself, no wires. Kewl... Any brains out there on induction? Paul

  • Every device has different standards on what voltage it wants, what connector it uses, how many amps it needs, etc... Power adaptors for various devices can be:

    AC or DC, 1-48 V, 50ma - 5A, any of a slew of connectors and polarities.

    The intelligent thing to do would be to pick a relatively common denominator, and make all equipment standardize to it (they're all capable of using voltage regulators, many devices in fact already accept a wider range of voltages than advertised).

    The ideal would probably be something like 24 VDC on a medium sized cylindrical connector with negative on the outside, positive in the center. You'd buy a universal power source with several of these dongles hanging off that supplies say 2A max to each connector.

    A lot fo the above is arbitrary, but the point is that these things have been obvious for a long time, but device manufacturers just don't care, and there's not real standard out there for them to conform to.

    On a related note - I've long wanted to see DC power in houses. Of course the utility should still deliver AC the way it always has - but I'd like to see a stepdown to 48VDC near the breaker panel, and have that 48VDC wired to DC outlets all over the house where many of the AC outlets are. Motorized devices (washer/dryer/fridge/ac) and traditional incandescent lights will still need the AC, but MANY of the other devices you plug into the wall all step down to a low DC voltage inside the unit. Your PC, clocks, kitchen appliances, chargers/power adaptors for all those electronic gadgets, etc.

    If you had 48VDC on the wall for these things, you'd be far more efficient with a central stepdown in your garage, you'd be safer, and the devices themselves could be smaller and lighter since they just need a small voltage regulator circuit instead of a transformer/rectifier/etc.
    • If you had -48VDC all over the place, you would be in a telco. The DC power plants in COs are impressive, but old-school. Just a thought.
  • The Power Bank [semsons.com]
    Usually ships in 2-3 business days.

    PDA-B001-PA
    Regular price: $69.99 Sale price: $44.99

    karma whoring thanks to a friend, haha.

    hmm, don't buy 'em all, I wanna look closer at that puppy and maybe get myself one.

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