Non-Invasive Networking - HomePNA vs. HomePlug? 84
zonker asks: "I live in a relatively new, moderately sized home that doesn't have conduit in the walls, nor does it have extra wires for networking. I am investigating getting a broadband connection, but first I have to decide how I will connect the network for the 6 computers in the house. As per the owners, I am not allowed to drill holes in the walls, and as per my girlfriend, I am not allowed to run Cat5 through the halls, so I am looking at my alternatives: wireless, HomePNA, and HomePlug. I'm afraid the house is a little too big for wireless without getting expensive, so it looks like either phonewire, or electric-wire. I've done some initial googling for people's opinions of these products and my quick findings where that magazine and website reviews seem to be favorable of some of them, while personal accounts seem to vary wildly. What solutions have worked for you? Are these things ready for primetime? Or should I suck it up and buy a few WAP's to extend the radius of a wireless network?"
Wireless not an option? (Score:3, Funny)
Regards, Guspaz.
Re:Wireless not an option? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Wireless not an option? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Wireless not an option? (Score:4, Insightful)
I was initially concerned about the range of wireless in my two-story house, thought I would have a lot of problems due to all the portable phones, baby monitors, big metal appliances, etc.
I put the access point in my daughter's bedroom on the second floor, end result I can use my wireless card from the basement to the second floor, and a significant distance in the front and back yard.
I'd suggest buying a wireless card and access point from one of those electronics superstores that charge ten to fifteen points more, but have "no-hassle return policies". If the shit doesn't work in your house just take it back.
Re:Wireless not an option? (Score:2, Insightful)
Don't! The effect of microwaves on the human brain is not well known/researched/documented, so I *wouldn't* do experiments with my own daughter (the more so if she were less than 10 years old).
Cancer, unfortunately, is a disease that you can't link with a cause in most cases. However, it is known that "x" increases the chances of cancer. The question (unanswered yet) is whether microwaves from that domain are a cancer factor or not.
The Raven
Re:Wireless not an option? (Score:1)
cbsnews [cbsnews.com]
BTW, 60% of the radiations emitted by a cellphone are absorbed by the brain. Moreover, children are at much higher risk than adults, as their brain is not fully developped. Earlier analog models (which have higher emissions than the current ones, though) have been shown to interfere with the brain.
The Raven
Re:Wireless not an option? (Score:1)
Re:Wireless not an option? (Score:2, Interesting)
Regards, Guspaz.
Re:Wireless not an option? (Score:1)
Note - 802.11b has conflict problems with the new 2.4GHz phones whereas 802.11a does not
Re:Wireless not an option? (Score:1)
Re:Wireless not an option? (Score:1)
There may be reasons that cell phones don't work inside (like it was all ready a dicey connection outside and wrapping a tissue wrapped around the antenna breaks the connection outside). I would go get a 802.11b (not a, range is way lower, and walls really mater) from somewhere that will accept a return, put it in where you want it, then run around your house with a laptop and see what the signal strength is.
Where I used to work was a large office building and some people installed some "ad-hoc" wireless points in a very busy office environment (elevators running, cubicles, conference rooms etc.) and a single access point worked for almost a whole floor, many times the footprint of my house. In fact where I am now, I get my corprate WAP, plus one downstairs...
Re:Wireless not an option? (Score:2)
Ever hear of walls? (Score:1)
No wires? (Score:5, Funny)
Dump her and buy yourself a spool. You'll end up better off in the end.
In situations like this, the best solution is the bitchy-girlfriend-less network, rather than the wireless network.
Re:No wires? (Score:3, Offtopic)
I can't believe how many times I'm replying in this thread! :) Have you considered cable raceways like these [panduitncg.com] , they will run along the baseboards and might pass the girlfriend's aesthetics requirements :)
A few buddies and I used something similar in a poorly-equipped college apartment to run telephone and CATV wires.
Re:No wires? (Score:2)
Re:No wires? (Score:4, Funny)
Or even this fabulous rumored substance called "paint".
Re:No wires? (Score:1)
I'm guessing you don't have a date this weekend.
Not to be a moron, but... (Score:4, Insightful)
Plan the infrastructure so you can put a few WAP's in places that would improve the overall experience, and deal with contingencies. You don't have to put in all the WAP's now... maybe one in the living room, one in the bedroom.
If it is a place you are going to stay for a few years, you will outgrow what any of the 1Mb links will offer. Save yourself the hassle and do it right the first time!
Re:The way I see it.. (Score:1)
What're they gonna do, anyway? Knock a twenty off your deposit?
Re:The way I see it.. (Score:1)
Re:The way I see it.. (Score:2)
Re:Not to be a moron, but... (Score:2)
2) Get Kicked Out
3) $$$!
802.11b (Score:3, Informative)
The Hell you say! (Score:1)
"The Linksys Instant PowerLine? EtherFast®10/100 Bridge offers a complete Internet connection solution for your home powerline network. The PowerLine Bridge makes sharing your broadband access easier than ever. Build a strong and simple-to-use home network by taking advantage of the most pervasive home networking medium - powerlines.
The PowerLine Bridge is ideal for users who already have a router. It can be plugged into an Ethernet port on a router to equip a network with powerline capabilities and take advantage of the router's features. The PowerLine Bridge can also plug directly into a cable or DSL modem to allow Internet access and data transfer rates up to 14Mbps over home powerlines."
Go Wireless (Score:3, Informative)
If you're worried about bandwidth, get an access point/router with two antennas. That will allow more devices to connect with greater bandwidth.
There's nothing better than getting 11Mbps with zero wire hassle.
HomePNA (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:HomePNA (Score:2, Interesting)
Wire the place (Score:2)
Re:Wire the place (Score:1)
Of course it depends on what you are doing, but using a 11 Mbit connection to access the internet at 1.5Mbit is no problem at all...
Of course if you are busy trying to copy a 1GByte Divx over the wireless link then you will want a wired connection. Of course what I do is use the wireless for convienient connectivity to the internet (corprate VPN, surfing, games etc.) then if I have to do some large internal transfers, I can walk to my computer room, plug a wire in and have a full 100Mbit connection...
YWLMV (Your Workload May Vary)
I have been nothing but absolutely pleased with my 802.11 network for 2 years now.
Phone line network... (Score:2)
I would recommend going wireless, buy some coax, and some pringles, and then have small relay station in the corner of the hallway. No holes needed. You'll just have to have the coax go in between the door and the door post. You won't sacrifice too much speed either. If you use a Y-jack, you should have a problem having relays to pass the signal.
HomePNA has problems (Score:3, Insightful)
HPNA 2.0 Rules (Score:1)
Re:HPNA 2.0 Rules (Score:1)
I don't know what you people are talking about who think HPNA sucks. You must be idiots or something (I'm done insulting now).
Seriously though, Our house is too big to do wireless... why? Wireless kinda sucks. In a large house with 3 levels and a lot of spread out...ness, you have to go with a hard line for stability.
For about $250 we set up our entire house for a high-speed network. And you can't beat that with anything unless you have Cat5 running through your walls already.
Thank you creators of HPNA 2.0 (1.0 and 1.1 sucked) for making my life so much easier!
I'd go with HomePNA (Score:2)
We use HPNA 2.0 (Score:1)
Two possible gotchas: It seems like HPNA gear is becoming harder to find, so I don't know how much longer it will be supported; I also don't know if there is Linux support for the chipset.
I'd stay away from that wireless (Score:2, Insightful)
First off, 802.11b uses the 2.4 GHz band, the same as the newer wireless phones and MICROWAVE OVENS. (as well as incedental radiation from some flourescent lights). 2.4 GHz is also the approximate resonating frequency of water molecules (hence its utilization in microwave ovens)so high humidity, waterpipes, and PEOPLE between the antennas tend to f0x0r up the reception.
I dropped WAAY too much money on a Linksys setup, and I hated it. Even with the newest drivers and hardware flash updates it was almost impossible to get the damn thing to transmit through more than one exterior wall or 2 interior walls. And even when I could make it work I got slower transfer rates than RFC1149 [ietf.org].
Two tech calls to Linksys (at 45 min apice)later I finally broke down and dropped cat5. (I also learned that Linksys considers 802.11b to be a "Line of Sight" protocol.)
I faced similar restrictions in hole-drilling, but generally, with a little work (and a little sense) one can overcome such restrictions. Check your phone and cable drops. These do not have to be stapled in to meet code, so you can tag a picec of cat5 on and just pull it through into either your attic or crawlspace and BAM! You could even spring for those cool Leviton integrated faceplates and jack phone and data out on the same plate. Same goes for cable.
Or, as a last resort, talk to your landlord, tell him you'll pay to add value to his property. They like that.
If you absolutley MUST go wireless, though, hit wirelessanarchy.com [wirelessanarchy.com]. The pringles can antenna works pretty well sometimes. But Linksys uses proprietary antenna connectors-- gender inverted TNC and SMA connectors. Theyre a bitch to get a hold of.
Try out HomePNA (Score:1)
But you won't know how well it works for you until you try it.
Well, (Score:2, Insightful)
rundown of the options as i see it... (Score:3, Informative)
alternately, if your house is carpeted, it is very easy to put cable under carpet, and is unnoticable if put in the right spots (i.e. following the edges of walls). just dont place the cable straight across rooms, otherwise you can feel the cable when you walk on it.
if the carpet is not an option, you might want to check out the raceways someone suggested. personally, i dont think these look all that good, and they would be too expensive for me, but its an option.
also, check into painting your cables, and running them along non-noticable places. if you match the color right, you can eaisly place cable along the little thing of wood that sticks out that seperates the room from the trim below the ceiling. that is, if you have that to begin with; some people do, some dont. if you run cables along walls, though, make sure to match colors just right, attach them tightly, follow corners and unnoticable places, and make sure there is no slack. otherwise, it looks kinda shoddy.
i wouldnt suggest using the data-over-power or data-over-phone routes, personally. ive heard only mixed reviews about these. try them if youd like, though.
your last option is wireless, which is nice in the fact that you can take it with you when you move. too slow of data rates for me, but its damned convinent. a hassle to set it up, watching out for interference and everything, though.
the option id favor the most would be convincing the father in law to let you run cables through the walls. use dual faceplates, make them look nice, and cover all the costs yourself. i dont see how this would decrease the value of the home, and might even raise is slightly. if i think of anything else, though, ill post it.
as to all the "this topic is boring and i dont want to help out" people, why do you even take the time to post and bitch about it? just dont read the discussion. i dont bitch that some TV station is playing a boring show, i just change the channel. same concept.
Got forced-air heat? (Score:3, Interesting)
Pry an opening in a duct in the furnace room, route the cables out of it to your hub, cover the hole temporarily with a strip of duct tape. When you move out, just yank the cables out of the duct and cover the hole with another piece of duct tape. The owner will never know.
Re:Got forced-air heat? (Score:1)
Legal stuff aside, that does work fine, though.
Re:Got forced-air heat? (Score:2, Informative)
802.11b will work (Score:1)
For some reason I don't like the idea of HPNA, or using my electrical outlets to do networking. The best bet would be CAT 5 or WiFi.
I have the above configuration working at several businesses and at my home, feel free to go to the website and find my E-Mail and I can answer some of your questions on setting something like this up.
802.11a (Score:2)
The cost of the APs is already very reasonable and definately worth going with over 802.11b.
Conductive Paint Networking (Score:3, Interesting)
Has anyone tried running Ethernet over conductive traces painted on a wall? I know it wouldn't be optimal, as the capacitance due to the twisted pairs would be difficult to match. But for a few dozen feet, perhaps it would work. I imagine the paint would be more resistive than copper wire, and of course more susceptible to interference (unshielded, unless six layers of conductive and regular paint seems like a good idea).
A person could do this in two ways. One requires a lot of conductive pens and a steady hand. The other requires a can of conductive paint and a high-density foam roller with four ridges. After the wires are carefully run along the wall or ceiling, a touchup roller with matched interior paint would conceal the traces. Connections could be made with a copper tab that you can solder a wire to, would be superglued to the wall and the conductive paint brushed on and around it to make the trace connection.
This "solution" repulses me since it goes against every instinct of proper design and following the Ethernet cabling standard. But...hey, if you can't generate enough trust with your soon-to-be relatives to let you run REAL wires, then you have to deal. Honestly, if running WIRES (a valuable improvement, come on!) was such a problem with either my girlfriend or landlord, I'd seriously start to wonder what other problems might be present in both relationships.
Re:Conductive Paint Networking (Score:1)
How about coax? (Score:2)
Since its not a star topology, you don't have to run cables to one return point, just between nodes.
If you really want faster than 10mbps, you can run it at 16 mbps w/ token ring
You might already have coax running ghetto style for cable tv, whats one more?
hmm... (Score:3, Funny)
2. You want to network a house that you don't own? What a waste of money. Why don't you buy a house? Believe me the amount of money you pay in rent is about the same as owning plus that money you pay is equity you have later in life.
3. As already mentioned go wireless. No wires, no holes and it keeps the girlfriend happy. A little more money but it will get the internet to the 6 computers in your
Why not buy? (Score:2, Insightful)
You have to prove tothe bank you are a good risk, regardless of what is 'cheaper' or 'makes more sence'.
And renting is NOT a waste of money.. you have to live somewhere. It may not be an investment, but its not a waste.
*disclamer, i do own.. and have cat5 on the floor, shorterm beacuse attics are hard to crawl around in... to the displeasure of the wife --
Re:Why not buy? (Score:1)
Re:hmm... (Score:1)
Believe me the amount of money you pay in rent is about the same as owning plus that money you pay is equity you have later in life.
Maybe if you have good credit and plan on living there for a really long time. Otherwise you're going to get killed with points and PMI.
Also, very little of "that money you pay" is equity. The vast majority of it is interest payments. Rent you pay to the bank for borrowing money.
A little more money but it will get the internet to the 6 computers in your ... err ... your landlords house.
Nah, either way it's probably the bank's home. Welcome to capitalism.
Re:hmm... (Score:2)
I'd rather take a home that I pay the bank any day over living in a restrictive apartment/house where I couldn't do anything to improve my surroundings.
Re:hmm... (Score:2)
You need good credit to get an apartment too.
No you don't. I know lots of people with horrible credit that have apartments.
I'd rather take a home that I pay the bank any day over living in a restrictive apartment/house where I couldn't do anything to improve my surroundings.
What about a non-restrictive apartment/house where you can do lots of things to improve your surroundings?
I'm not trying to say renting is always the better solution. In fact, for most middle and upper income level people, it rarely is. But for lower income people who don't get very much if any tax benefits, it is commonly cheaper to rent.
Re:hmm... (Score:2)
to your second point, What is the point to rent and improve on someone elses property. It makes the value of their house go up at your expense.
Re:hmm... (Score:2)
I am sure bad credit people can get places...you got to live somewhere. But what kind of place is it? What "pets" come with the place?
I'm really not sure what your point is here. If you have bad credit, you're almost surely better off renting. Let your landlord get the low interest rate and pass (most of) the savings on to you. Landlords tend to be much more forgiving about credit problem than banks are.
What is the point to rent and improve on someone elses property. It makes the value of their house go up at your expense.
Many landlords will reinburse their renters for improvements they make. This has the added bonus that the landlord gets a tax break, while if you owned the property there would be no tax break at all. Now if you're making improvements that aren't going to increase the value of the property, you're not going to get the landlord to pay for it, but your house value wouldn't go up if you owned it anyway.
It also depends on how long you plan on staying in one spot, and how much money you're willing to risk on that one investment. If you're planning on staying for a long time you can usually get a much better deal on a rental property, though.
Look at it this way. If you're in the 15% tax bracket and you know someone in the 28% bracket, you have bad credit and you know someone who has good credit, doesn't it make sense to let that other person own the place, get the better financing, get the greater tax deductions, and then rent it to you?
Re:hmm... (Score:1)
One major problem with HPNA 2.0 (Score:2)
Re:broadcom linux driver (Score:1)
Ethernet over phone lines (Score:1)
Re:Ethernet over phone lines (Score:1)
well, you might need one or two wireless jacks, for a modem or something. but still.
Outside runs? (Score:2)
Run the cable through windows, let it hang loose and drape it over the roof - maybe put it inside some PVC pipe to protect it a bit on the roof from the elements - leave a "droop" at the point where it comes in the window so that rain will drop off and not into the house.
I would advise against trying to run the cable via the electrical conduit and getting new plates as others have suggested. While this sounds like a good idea, running 120VAC next to Cat5 would almost have to introduce noise into the line. Furthermore, if the lines are in flexible conduit, there likely won't be enough room for both - the little room there is would make moving the Cat5 a bear, perhaps even dangerous. If it isn't in conduit, navigating the holes in the firebreak crossbeams in the wall will be a nightmare, to say the least.
Keep these problems in mind when you buy a house, though - because it WILL influence your decision on what to buy. The house I bought earlier this year was perfect for wiring anything. It was built in the early 1970's with block construction. The interior walls are drywall set off from the brick by vertical 1x2 furring strips - there isn't any insulation between the strips and the wall, and no horizontal furring strips - so running cable is as simple as getting into the attic, drilling a hole in the baseplate 2x4 at the top of the brick, and dropping the cable down the hole!
All that and no damn HOA!!!
Cold air returns (Score:1)
No hot air travels in these ducts but you can run cable through them without major difficulty.
Everybody win's: You get your broadband, owners don't get holes, girlfriend don't have to look at cat5 all the time
What about security? (Score:1)
Question for all the people talking about wireless:
are there any *cheap* implementations of per-user-per-session key generation setups, or are you thinking of changing WEP keys every time you figure the total amount of traffic you've broadcast has reached a usable amount for airsnort to crack? (you've got to be kidding, right?)
I know Cisco has LEAP, I don't think their setup will be cheap (correct me if I'm wrong?).
Doe Lucent/WaveLAN/Agere/Orinoco have an equivalent per-user-per-session setup?
Anyways, I think if you've got a house that wireless can't cover with a single base station, then you really shouldn't worry about the trifling cost of a couple of access points (or, for that matter, some expensive Cisco LEAP setup
(I'm taking it it's not some kind of out-on-the-bayou ranch, since HomePNA and whatnot wouldn't work there either).
It takes quite a few walls to block off 802.11, and unless your house is nuclear-strike-resistant, you really shouldn't have transmission problems. Why don't you borrow a base station from a friend to test?
Re:What about security? (Score:1)