What Software Do Cable Installers Place on Your PC? 973
{e}N0S asks: "The cable guy came over to install a cable modem at my Dad's house. As I watched him do his stuff I noticed he was installing something called Broadjump Client Foundation. I know you don't need software for a cable modem to work so I asked if it was necessary. He said he had to do his list of things, and we had to sign that he did his list of things, otherwise he couldn't leave it with us to use. Since I can always remove the software, I agreed, but I noticed while he was flipping through the install, he was clicking 'agree' on every EULA that came up. Doing a search on Google for 'Broadjump Client Foundation' comes up with some pretty scary stuff as far as what it does, like: 'Builds a database of subscriber demographics and buying behaviors to help evolve and refine marketing efforts.' Now, how does this affect us? Neither myself or anyone in my family agreed to the software; the cable guy did. And is there anyway to get cable companies to stop doing this as I can imagine since the cable company is a monopoly in this town, that the percentage of people who still have this software on their computers is pretty high."
he installed (Score:5, Interesting)
he did nothing. i wouldnt let him. i just signed as if he did, to keep him outta shit.
Nothing (Score:5, Interesting)
"but that's what my instructions say to do."
"are you bonded?"
"Whats that?"
"It means are you insured in case I have to sue you personally for screwing something up"
"oh.... Here's the info."
Besides, I connect through a router. What possible good would THEIR software do me?
interesting (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:he installed (Score:4, Interesting)
I NEVER let anyone install any software on my company computers or my home computers that deal with broadband. Next thing you know you'll have spy wear and you can't remove it.
investigate your cable connection (Score:5, Interesting)
1.Connect PC, cable modem and a second PC (everyone has one :) ) to a simple hub ($20).
2.Run a network capture tool (tcpdump, snoop, ethereal, etc.) on the 2nd PC.
3.Boot your broadband PC.
4.Look at the traffic.
You should be able to recognize the DHCP negotiations and see whether anything unusual is going on. Odds are, all it needs to do is negotiate for an address, everything else is probably frill.
The next step is to install a 2nd NIC in the 2nd PC, load linux, connect the cable modem to that and the other NIC to your little LAN and use IP tables to set up a firewall and NAT.
Just like with drugs... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Have a honeypot (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Small Claims Court? (Score:4, Interesting)
More significantly, isn't him clicking through the end user agreements a forgery of your agreement?
On a practical level, I agree with someone above: have a sacrificial machine. I built a machine from my parts boxes for them to mess up. After all, all they want is a windows control panel to poke at, that it is on a P100 with almost no disk space and a slightly dodgy power supply doesn't matter.
What scares me just a little bit... (Score:5, Interesting)
This says to me that either there are very few links to the company's homepage, or there is no company homepage.
Heh. Conspiracy therories entered here. 10 cents.
Practical Solution. (Score:2, Interesting)
This makes perfect sense to me, as there are great differences between my house and my computer. Fine, he can run a cable line through my wall; I don't necessarily feel like doing that part myself. But, nobody touches my computers.
Of course, the easiest way around this is just to be running some variant of Unix at the time. I think I scared (or baffled?) the poor man with my NeXTcube. He backed off and let me do the rest of the installation myself.
Disturbing... (Score:1, Interesting)
But the question is: Since the cable guy agreed to the EULA, is he the "End User" or is it the owner of the machine?
My dad installed some dialup software from an ISP, but he had to remove it as it kept dialling all the time without him knowing of it, untill he suddenly saw the dialup-icon in the systray. Damn those ISP's
da kekePower
Re:Inquiring minds must know... (Score:5, Interesting)
Dunno what this guy used, but certainly ATTBI/MediaOne/whatever does this.
Broadjump is the biggest piece of shit software I've ever seen. It reboots your computer whenever possible (god forbid they should check to see if you're running on 2K/XP which doesn't need to be rebooted to renew DHCP). You also need that program to register your MAC address with them. I could have made a fuss, but it wasn't worth it. I installed, registered, and de-installed. No more problems.
They certainly don't require that you leave it installed, except for Tech Support. Which so far has been easy, because if it's a problem with the line, you simply call and report that cable TV is out. Then they don't ask you to reboot your computer 500 times.
Been there (Score:2, Interesting)
Chances are, if you ask your cable guy not to install it, he'll be more than happy not to, because he can get you to sign, and move onto the next house ASAP.
Cablevision -- no problemo (Score:5, Interesting)
When the Speakeasy guy came out 2+ years ago, I had done all the "inside wiring" myself (this was back in the dedicated-line days
When the Optimum Online guy came out here (I needed someone to come out since I don't subscribe to cable
First thing he did was go outside, climb the pole and turn the line on. when he did that, the cable bridge (IT'S NOT A MODEM DAMNIT!) "went green" and that was that.
All he asked was to see me pull up a web page. That was good enough.
Seriously, don't give the guy the old chip-on-the-shoulder attitude. Don't sound like a clueless yutz, either. Just explain to the guy that listen, it's my machine and I'll install all the software on it, thanks. It's already configured for the network -- I read the directions (on the web, in the box, etc.)
The installers are usually _very_ cool about that stuff. In fact, the cable guy saw my Sun Microsystems jacket and started asking me some questions... we had a good long talk about IP networks and stuff, since he was looking to go to some Cisco courses and get outta the cable install business
Best of luck with the installs! Remember, don't give them an attitude, just convince them that your machine is all ready to go. Remember, if they get out of there in 5 minutes instead of 2 hours, it means they get to take a long lunch
--NBVB
Shady Installers (Score:1, Interesting)
I believe that the reasoning behind the cable company saying "es, a tech has to install your modem. No, you cannot install it yourself." is the fact that they want to install THEIR software on there.
Originally I had DSL through my Telco. The guy came in, installed Netscape and a Novell Client, neither of which I had previously. And the guy never even asked. When I confronted him on it, he actually looked scared when I started growling at him for installing software on my PC that he never asked, nor I requested. He made up some excuse that I was going to need Netscape in order to browse the web because no other browser worked on their system. I just rolled my eyes and told the guy to hook the modem up and get out, I would do the setup myself. Poof! He was gone. LOL
The exact opposite (Score:5, Interesting)
In the UK when a guy from BT cam around to install my DSL he did the exact opposite. They're specifically not allowed to touch my PC as they're not insured for any damage. So the engineer has a laptop, he plugs in the modem and proves the line works. Then I sign him off, he gives me the modem and a driver disc and it's up to me.
Of course this was 2 years ago, these days the engineer doesn't even come over...
Re:Nothing. (Score:4, Interesting)
I think these guys get commission on the number of installations they do in a day, so they are glad to get out the door as soon as they can.
Charter did this during the switch over (Score:4, Interesting)
They also said they did not turn on the software, but after portscanning all of Charter's IP space that Arin said was allocated to them over 13,000 computers had this port listening out of over 25,000+ (4.5 Class C's) were actively listening for connections and would accept a connection if you telnetted to the port. Whereas scanning a non charter IP subnet there were less than 20 that accepted this (I don't have my numbers with me ATM).
The wonderful fellows at Securepipe.com [securepipe.com] Looked into this and brought it up with the local "watch dog" columnist for one of the local papers who wrote an article about this. Charter was not happy. The guys at Securepipe also brought this up with the local cable commission. Who were semi interested in this issue. About a week later port filtering was in place, including port 641 (what the software runs on).
They said the use was for the ability to remotely help users. Yes this is a nice function to have, but what if this fell into the wrong hands? The Broadjump software is based off of an older version of VNC that has some weak authentication issues. And also dealing with Charter and @home techs I wouldn't trust these people with my computer anyway. I don't trust my mother with my computer.
This was back in Novemeber/December who knows what they could do now.
wi2600.org [wi2600.org] You can read the threads here, many to list and you can see the research that we did to get into this. I do not know if an electronic copy of the mentioned newspaper article exists but if it does, I will try and get it posted.
Re:Did you agree? Yeah, kinda. (Score:5, Interesting)
a different experience ... (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Have a honeypot (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Have a honeypot (Score:4, Interesting)
I was running win2k before they supported it, to appease the installers i ran win98 system in a fullscreen VMware. You should have seen the look on their faces when the win2k desktop popped up for a second while the virtual machine rebooted.
they installed all kinds of stuff, the IE on that image never worked the same again.
All I had to do was take note of the IP and PC Name, (they were using some funky DHCP via NetBios carp) shut down the vm and cram the IP and Name into the 2k install. bam! instant access.
Re:They tried. (Score:3, Interesting)
I've never even had to do that (MediaCom). When it was installed and when I've had problems with the service, they've told me they don't support Linux. I've just told that's fine and to tell me what they want done instead of how to accomplish it. They've been pretty good about that. I get instructions like "go to this URL to register your computer's MAC address with us" instead of "click on 'Start' in the lower left hand corner, ...".
Cable Installer (Score:2, Interesting)
Cable Software (Score:3, Interesting)
So this is the where I get to brag about my WISP (Score:2, Interesting)
Okay, before you flame me being lucky by owning a home in the right place, a decent ISP was one of the criteria I had in buying our new house...
ATTBI en Mass (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Cablevision -- no problemo (Score:4, Interesting)
Yeah, same here.
I had Internet America [airmail.net] install my DSL service. They have a self-install option, with micro-filters and all, but it was not available to me because I was so far from the C.O. (15.6 kft) that I needed a dedicated pair to get any decent bandwidth (I chose the 768kb/s down, 384 kb/s up option) -- They said I could probably get that, via ADSL if I opted to go with a dedicated pair, and, if it didn't work, all charges would be refunded. Rather cool, actually.
Of course, the dedicated pair costs me some US$15 a month from the telco for a total of $81.18 a month, but the service has been great: static IP, no caps, I can run "small" servers and so on. And, while it's no doubt a bridged connection, I do see good download speeds. So I'm happy. None of this "ping is a hacker's tool, the use of which violates the AUP" crap.
Anyway, I receive a Broadxtent bridge in the mail, and a note to schedule an appointment. I mount the bridge in my headend, check the demarc, and lo and behold!, I have two brand new pairs already pulled for the DSL service. So, I schedule the install for the next day. Meanwhile, I figure, "Heck, all I have to do is hook up that pair, cross-connect it to the bridge connection on the right 110 block, and configure my router, and I should be all set." Sure enuf, that's all it took.
So, I call Internet America first thing the next day, and tell them to not bother sending the installer, it's alive, kicking, and showing decent up/down speeds. "But sir, we want to make sure it's installed correctly to avoid a service call." O.K., I can understand this. "Anyway, you paid the $150 installation fee (the telco pair drop portion was unavoidable anyway) -- might as well have the tech stop by." Well, O.K. then.
Tech shows up, looks at my computer, working fine, with an RJ45 cable snaking off (I hadn't finished the drop to that room yet, so I just snaked a cable back to the headend), and asks, "Where's our modem?" "The headend," I reply, "I hadn't installed the drop to this room yet. Follow the ethernet cable."
So, he does, and sure enough, I hear a "Damn! I wouldn'tve done as good a job!" He smiled, we talked shop for about 10 minutes, and that was it.
To their credit, Internet America left my computer alone, gave me a static IP with no fuss, and have provided decent service since. The Broadxtent bridge locks up every few months, but a power-cycle fixes that.
RR installed a virus on my co-workers PC! (Score:3, Interesting)
My experience with RR has been great on the other hand. I never let them touch a thing. And they are fine with that. They just want to get out of the house and on to the next call.
Yet another reason to use Linux. (Score:3, Interesting)
I gave him a couple of RedHat CDs and sent him on his way.
Re:Nothing (Score:2, Interesting)
Their techs appreciate techs (Score:3, Interesting)
He was prepared to do a normal windows installation when I showed him my router and firewall setup. We plugged in a couple cables and bang, it was running. He was very happy to not have to deal with all the extra crap. "Wow, that's Linux? Cool.", he said. Probably his easiest call ever, total 15 minutes 10 of them me showning him how feature-rich Linux is.
Bundeled DSL software (a la Verizon) (Score:3, Interesting)
Typically, the implementation used by the DSL provider (my experience was with Verizon), is not nearly as good as other versions available.
If you're a tweaker, bandwith whore or just generally care about your connection's performance I recommend heading over to DSL Reports.com [dslreports.com] and grabbing a copy of RASPPPoE and Dr. TCP. Packet size and receiving window settings can make a world of difference.
What's scary is this article (Score:4, Interesting)
Ummmm...."clicking through the Eulas" is the only way to install the software. If he wants "cable companies to stop doing this" he could have cancelled the install and thrown the "cable guy" out. And, yes, as he observed the cable guy "clicking through the Eulas" and did not throw him out he *did* agree to them. However, this is a moot point because the software is easily uninstallable and is not required for the cable modem to function properly.
Cable companies are frequently "monopolies" in towns because of the expense of laying new cable and maintaining it. You can't have 10 cable companies all laying 10 strands of cable on each telephone poll. Besides that, it isn't economical for a company to provide service in an area in which it cannot have a guaranteed customer base (not a guaranteed number of paying customers--that is entirely different), because of the expense involved in setting up the cabling to begin with. Towns frequently entertain "bids" by competing cable companies as to which company will provide the area with the best prices, service and choice prior to awarding the "contract" to a particular cable company. It's not a monopoly--it's a practicality.
Frankly, I grow a bit weary hearing people complain about non-issues like this. Usually, these complaints are based on a wide degree of ignorance and fear, just like this one. It would be a different matter if you couldn't uninstall the software and still use the modem. But you can, and that fact alone makes this much ado about nothing.
Re:That's great for Slashdot geeks... (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't think that you understand what capitalism actually is. Since you recommend the person to take a cource in "social ethics and justice", I will also recommend that the person realize that well over 85% of teachers are die hard liberals and some consider themselves socialist. So please understand that before taking a course. But if we are recommending ways to learn on capitalism, then I would get
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/newt/ta
Sorry for not doing html tags! Just cut and paste.
Now to get this thing back on topic...
What the Cable company is doing is wrong. They will probably get sued over this. The person didn't agree to any EULA, AND probably more importantly the user didn't get the option to counter the contract. Specifically they didn't get an option to do a fair negotiation with the company. This cable company is foolish to do this and it will come back to haunt them. Not a very smart thing, but then they are a monopoly in that area... kinda like socialism...
No software needed? (Score:2, Interesting)
I work for a Dutch cable provider that *does* need software installed, as they use PPPoE for subscriber access. Windows XP is a godsend, in that regard, since it has PPPoE built-in, but all other versions of Windows require PPPoE software to be installed.
Also supplied on the CD are a mac version of the software, and also the source package of Roaring Penguin's PPPoE client for linux, although for linux I'd recommend just downloading the latest version. And, of course, there are no spyware things on the CD, though it does rather sneakily lock the MSIE Homepage setting in Windows XP's registry.
You don't get full installation unless you pay extra for it. If you don't, you just get the modem, a generic signal amplifier for TV signal, and a length of UTP cable. If you do, you get a network card too, and an incompetent lout to install it all for you.
And company that doesn't offer it in this manner should be avoided, if possible.
Re:Nothing (Score:2, Interesting)
I was originally going to get DSL, but I am (was, I'm told its improved) too far from the CO to get ADSL. At the time they offered me SDSL through a contractor, but the contractor wanted to charge business rates, and claimed to be able to "check" for routers. I told them to get stuffed, since cable was available.
Now the contractor (can't remember who they were, but they were a major DSL player) is out of business, and Sprint keeps calling asking me to sign up for their "improved" service.
If RR doesn't do something about the customer at 65.35.62.22 thats spewing port scans and probing for Netbus, et al, I'll have to take a look at Sprint. The scanner is no real threat, but since I've notified security several times and the same address is scanning more and more frequently, I'm losing what little confidence I had in them... Service has been rock solid though.
Standard Op Procedure for Cable Modem installs (Score:2, Interesting)
BUT there is very little standardization among installers. The quality is EXTREMELY low. I worked for a company that specialized in Cable Modem installations for broadband providers, and still the majority of the contractors were just Cable TV techs. I started out as a Tech, having not worked for about a year. Of course, I was promoted to Regional Training Supervisor within a few weeks. I wrote a Standard Operating Procedure Manual for doing Cable Modem installs that was used by 150 or so techs in Atlanta. After that company was bankrupted (by the owner stealing money, equipment, and blatant discrimination against white people and women (Thanks again, James Clavon!)), I saw that my manual was being taken by the techs to other companies, and those other companies promptly made it their official document.
Anyway, when I wrote it, I had to take into account the demands of the ISP's that contracted us to do the installs, but I took advantage of every loophole that I could to have the install done the way that I would want it done on MY machine.
Specifically, there was software provided by the ISP which was SUPPOSED to make all of the modifications to the system required, but it crapped out a lot of the time. At the time (about two years ago) the software did JUST make the TCP/IP changes, add an email account (to Outlook Express), change the home page, and send a machine description (hardware stats) to the ISP. I encouraged techs to avoid using this software and do the entire process manually.
Yada yada, more random info:
As a supervisor, I had to tell techs to bail on the install if the machine didn't fit the ISP's minimum reqs (like supported OS), but if I was doing an install, or was nearby when a tech radioed me with a problem, I would get the install done for anyone who wanted the service. I could judge the customers pretty well, in that if they were self-sufficient computer users, I would just give them the TCP/IP connection, because that's all they needed. If they needed tech support in the future, they'd have to deal with either putting up a temporary supported OS, removing their firewall (unsupported), or (my preferred method) just lying to tech support, giving the answers that will lead them down their trouble shooting checklist towards getting the damned connection fixed.
Anyway.... I don't know about thew state of affairs today. Now I'm more on the CMTS end in that field. I wouldn't be suprised if the software had spyware components. When I was getting out of that area, they were introducing a "ToolKit" application which WAS somewhat useful in that it would check the status of connections to email, news, & DNS servers, etc. They wanted it to run in the systray and I think it did report back some traffic and usage info to the ISP. But when I had a connection problem, it was easy to start that app and confirm they were having email issues. Now, they probably have much more Orwellian things in the works....
jmlyle
Recent (Few days ago) AT&T install (Score:1, Interesting)
The next day, the tech came to her home, drilled the holes, unboxed the Surfboard cable modem and that was that. The tech left the install disk and said that you would have to install the software themselves (I presume that was because my neice was not there at the time, school!).
My neice called me, I went over, looked at the CD and said, we don't need that. I tried to get an IP but it would not work, released and renewed but no joy.
My neice's mother came in and said that the tech said that you WOULD HAVE TO install the CD to get the connection to work.
So I said, what the heck, I can always de-install the crap, so I popped in the CD and went through the install, it asked for details like a subscriber number, registration code, name and address confirmation, then it proceeded to reset the cable modem, and when that was done, installed the broadjump crap, and asked to reboot, which I did.
After that, the IP was given and I proceeded to de-install the broadjump crap. That was that.
It appears from this very recent experience that you have to run the install CD. I wonder if you don't have a windows PC, are you sh!t outta luck!
One curious point... when I had the laptop hooked at my home network, the MAC address was DIFFERENT to the mac address that it now has, just strange.
One last thing, for the past few weeks, I've been getting a DHCP lease of 1 Hour, yes you read right... I called AT&T and they said that this was "normal", wanted to know if this was happening to any other New England/Boston area AT&T customers.
Re:he installed (Score:5, Interesting)
It means they made 17$ for 5-10 minutes of their time.
Kintanon
Boss's Reaction to Lilo (Score:3, Interesting)
It was kinda nice, being 17 and having my own parking space, office, nametag with picture, etc... and computer that they gave me...
Now they were pretty strict about paperwork and licensing, being gov't and all, and at first my boss thought I wouldn't even need a computer of my own in the office at first, but then I needed to check my Groupware email so much, so I got a little crappy Pentium 3/300mhz that I found in the 'Old Computers, Destroy these, don't give them away' room.
Anyway, I installed Windows 2000 (or 98) or it first, but I left 10Gb as an extra partition.
I got bored one day and thought, well I am working in Unix stuff in the server room all the time, and this thing doesn't even have SSH built in, so let's install linux. I thought to consult my Boss, but then decieded not to bug him. I had the license, it was free! He said not to bring any software from home, because of pirating/licensing issues, but thought this would be fine.
I loaded Linux, and it worked like a dream on the machine (this was before Redhat was BloatHat by default). So of course I use Lilo to switch between Windows for email (groupware...), and Linux. I was also testing out VMWare to try to get the Groupware going in Linux.
Anyway, a few weeks later (being a lowly intern) I have to share my desk and computer with someone who is just starting, which was fine with me. It was a two person office anyway, and she was just using my computer until she got her own.
One day, apparently she rebooted Windows for something, and I forgot to ever mention linux for more than a second. Lilo comes up, and she sits and thinks, so it goes to Linux. Then when it prompts her for a username/password, she goes to the Bossman
Bossman says to me in his office later, "I need to talk to you, did you load Linux on your computer?". To make a long story long, I didn't get fired or anything but I did have to explain my way out of it (GNU, etc...)
The next day he gave me a machine to work on in Linux and test VMWare on. It was a Dual Processor Box, with 1gb memory, and 4 harddrives all in Hardware raid!!! I had to load Oracle and VMWare on it... Oh, what a job !
Linux! (Score:1, Interesting)
He pretty much ticked the box that said 'other' and connected the modem and left.
knock, knock...."Cable Guy" (Score:0, Interesting)
Re:Qwest doesn't get along with anyone except... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Self Install Kits (Score:3, Interesting)
My kids, my wife, and my mother do not have admin access on thier win2k machines (they each have thier own). If something breaks I have to fix it. Thats part of the deal for maintaining thier machines.... I aint got no time for no windoz viri, or spyware.
Re:he installed (Score:2, Interesting)
On my DSL service.... (Score:1, Interesting)
Nevertheless, before customer service will escalate it to the guy who tries to detect my modem from the CO end of things, I have to tell them what OS I'm running, pretend that I'm checking things in the control panel, prentend that I'm rebooting it, etc.
If I had enoug free time, I'd video the red light blinking, and take the modem manual to court with me--to sue them for wasting my time. I'd probably lose, but (maybe) some exec at the company would change the customer service script to skip all that bullshit if the RED LINE ERROR LIGHT is blinking!
Re:That poor joe (Score:3, Interesting)
Not even close to a comparable situation. The cable installer is coming at our behest to provide us a service that we paid for. The telemarker is interrupting our lives to try and sell us a product that we asked for no information on after most likely receiving our contact information by the sale of our personal information without our conscent.
I'm sorry, but get another job. If you know you are going to be inconveniencing people, you have to expect people to be rude right back to you.
Re:he installed (Score:2, Interesting)
Spyware (Score:3, Interesting)
That said, I hate telemarketers and do hold people responsible for the jobs that they hold. Are the Phillip Morris scientists not responsible for their lack of integrity just because "their boss told them so?" Arguements of "I was following orders" don't fly too well.
I would have to be on the verge of death from starvation to work as a telemarketer. If then.
Re:Small Claims Court? (Score:2, Interesting)
But, if I hire out my friend to do the work at $100/hour then I can?
Seems weird, since if I'm a pro, and I end up doing "professional" work because someone messing something up....
I mean, if someone smashes into my house, and I'm a contractor and I fix it, I couldn't take them to small claims for the work I did?
Ciao!
Couldn't say. (Score:2, Interesting)
At least they allow the support yourself option, unlike the early days I heard about from other people I knew, where they had to plug in a Windows box just for the install, otherwise the installer will say "no, we can't do that!" The spyware they could've gotten away with (and probably did) then... geez, it's pretty sad.
Alternative approach (Score:4, Interesting)
This approach may get you permanently relegated to the slow lane of the Internet, if that (hint: what do you think your AOL or Earthlink connection does, especially upstream? Do you think they ignore all that nifty consumer buyer profile data they see pass through web proxies and such?)
As a Cox.net consumer and manager of a regional broadband service provider (not cox - we service flyover country:-) ), I'd suggest a better alternative:
- supply a stock Wintel PC next to your cable modem/DSL/wireless DSL termination. Win2K or WinXP are probably necessary.
- use the stock machine for the installer to load his garbage on
- use the machine for customer support calls
- let it crunch keys or run some other distributive application
- replace it in the link for normal operation using your router/internet sharing device of choice (e.g. RouterOS [mikrotik.com], Linux dual-nic, Linksys firewall router, etc)
Just make sure you get the details down of how your service provider authenticates you and let you on his network - PPPoE, DHCP, MAC-based authentication, etc. and make sure your router solution is configured to do the same.
Yea, I hate spyware and won't use it on my network either...
*scoove*
Re:he installed (Score:2, Interesting)
They installed nothing but they still suck... (Score:3, Interesting)
I have Road Runner and as soon as I can get DSL I am getting it. First off, I never cal tech support until I try everything I know. Then when I do call and first level says first delete your network connections and recreate them I say I already did that and if he says do it again I say let me talk to your manager. Now it seems they know me and they just send me to second level on the spot. Then whenever I detect a problem on their end (DHCP server not responding, random connection problems, thier cable modem "updates" not working(from the modems web page)), I have to practically jump up and down on one hand upside down to get their attention. One time I had a guy come and check my levels and he saw I had a splitter in the line between TV's and the cable modem. He insisted that you should not split a cable modem dedicated jack and I told him YOU GUYS DID IT! (it's true they did). I would love to rewire it myself with a DC6 and a dual jack with one for the TV's and one for the cable modem, but I can't find a DC6. Anyone know where I could find one? I would love to do it and see if he was right. My most favorite one though is when I broke down and called them to run a cable from my basement to where the cable modem is and they drilled a hole in my FLOOR! I ASKED and PAID for a WALL JACK. Funny thing is when they came to re-do it, they only had to drill the hole about 5 inches over from where they did drill it and it only took about a minute to fish the cable up thru the wall (internal wall, no insulation). They guy was in so much of a hurry, he could not do it right! All I say is fine. If you can't do it right, then you wil come back and do it right again. There's never time to do it right the first time but there's always time to do it after it was screwed up the first time.
My Cable Install Experience (Score:4, Interesting)
The guy came over, hooked up the cable modem, and watched as I ran about 50 feet of cable from it, around the back of the apartment, and through the window of the office (the only cable jack was on the opposite side of the house to the computers). When I finished he asked which computer had to be set up. "That one" I said, pointing to a small box hidden under the desk. It is a p133 that has run my website on 48 megs of ram for the last 5 years. "But not really that one," I finished.
See I have a nifty little firewall from netmaster [netmaster.com] (was merilus) which is a full computer on a pci card that uses the host computer only for power via the PCI bus. When I explained this to him he just kinda nodded.
"Don't worry," I told him, "I'll take care of it all." "All I need from you is the end of a cat5 cable." He went back to the cable modem and did the initialization or whatever he needed to do, and I overheard him say to head office something about "no, this guys going to set it all up."
I had already set up the card for DHCP, so it was a matter of replacing the DSL modem cat5 cable and putting in the new one from the cable modem. I borrowed a pen from the slightly stunned installer and reset the system, waited the 40 or 50 seconds for the system to come back up, and then pinged out from my linux workstation.
I mentioned that I worked for the last few years with a networking company and he said "well, you know a lot more than me then." No shit was the un-stated response. He left after having touched nothing more than the cabel modem.
Moral of the story: If you don't want them to touch anything (and any moderately competant geek shouldn't), don't let them! All that needs to be done on a cable modem install is to plug in the external cable into your firewall (you DO have a firewall right?) and for you to either reboot it or renew the DHCP lease. You can set up all the @HOME proxy info if you want, but it's not needed.
Re:Charter did this during the switch over (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:he installed (Score:2, Interesting)
Cable providers forced software. (Score:3, Interesting)
TimeWarner/RoadRunner in Tampa Florida has software, but they're usually too lazy to install it, which is a good thing. They used to have the required authentication software, but that's a different animal.
TimeWarner/AOLCable in the Tampa area is actually RoadRunner. You can switch providers, save $5/month, and use the AOL auth software. Unfortunately it's an obnoxious set of popups and banners that drives me absolutely nuts. From what I understand that's all they do.
Charter Communications in the Los Angeles area *DOES* have a spyware package, which sounds like what you have.. My girlfriend was putting in the order for my cablemodem, and they asked her "What OS are you using." The phone was handed off to men, and I told them Linux. They aren't allowed to even install with a Linux machine.. I had used on e on their network 2 weeks prior, so I knew it wasn't a technical problem. I finally gave in, and told them Win98, and brought a workstation back to the house for them to see when they installed..
The Charter installer went to put the CD in to start installing software, and I told him "NO!" Then I asked what it was.
Funny thing, I guess I made it clear enough that I only want a connection. They never even gave me my Email account info. Not like it matters, I never checked my TimeWarner/RoadRunner Email in the years that I had it.
Their spyware wouldn't have done much good. They would have put it on a freshly installed 98 box, which would have gotten formatted later. I took that machine down, and put up my Linux firewall, and reassembled my home network (3 machines, for 3 people. Imagine that. hehe)
It is obnoxious that they feel it's ok to push their software on you, but it's just as obnoxious as buying a new laptop with their choice of OS and software packages, that you're good enough to pay for. Did I really want WinXP Home and MSOffice 6000? Nope. But I don't have a choice.
Charter Cable Contract guys were pretty cool... (Score:2, Interesting)
They told me I could run any service I wanted on my box (upstream is throttled to 128k anyway), as long as I wasn't competing with Charter and running an ISP out of my basement!
My buddy, who lives 20 miles away, on the other hand has to suffer with AT&T. They installed 50 MB of who-knows-what on his system, and made him sign an agreement that basically said he's not allowed to run anything "cool" on his system: he can browse, ftp, and e-mail, and that's about it!
Earthlink, who handles support for my Charter account, even has some limited Linux support, though I've yet to find them terribly helpful, or even very necessary.
Other people I know who have ISPs that do portscans looking for services merely block the portscanner with their firewall, and they run what they want.
dochood
Re:That's great for Slashdot geeks... (Score:3, Interesting)
HOWEVER.
If we accept EULAs at face value, that clicking through a license agreement during an install process legally binds you to the terms of that license, then there's a big problem with the installer clicking through them for you (especially if you're not given the opportunity to read the license terms).
Are you legally bound to the EULA terms if someone else agrees to them on your behalf? It's an interesting question.
Re:PPPoE is a wasteful protocol (Score:4, Interesting)
Actually, It's about more than that. PPPoE adds support for things like authentication which makes it easier to support multiple ISPs on one physical network. That's the reason PPPoE was deployed in Ontario, Canada. The phone company was forced by the govt to resell its ADSL service to competitors at a bulk rate, to allow competition. This meant that there was now multiple providers on the same network, and the ADSL network behaves a lot like ethernet. Thus, to allow things like metering and authentication and lots of other things that ISPs might care about, a new protocol had to be deployed over the existing one. Hence, PPPoE.
Yes, PPPoE is a pain in it's "dial-up" like nature. Yes, it does have some overhead over ethernet. However, it does allow for competition. Which is a good thing. As for the inability to keep an IP address, well, nothing says that you'll always get the same IP address using DHCP.
Also, I bet that in certain areas of the world the Cable companies will also start using PPPoE once the regulators start making them resell bandwidth too. I hate the thought, since I also like DHCP better, but it's the way of the world: Physical networks are prohibitively expensive. So to enable competition, you have to share them.
Re:Missing the point? (Score:3, Interesting)
By loading this software, I ensure that my configuration will probably stay on top of all the nonsense you put in there, and I can actually have a clue what is going on when you manage to screw it up still.
The alternative is $500/month broadband (minimum...), or zero support
Umm, how does installing commonly-used software 'dick up IP settings'? Other than proxy settings, what are you protecting? Using software to insure that your settings stay on top is counter-competitive, as when/if the customer decides to switch to another provider, they may have a tough time of it. Think AOL, and how it keeps email and favorites separate from the system, so that when a user switches they have to figure out how to get their favorites that they made during AOL use to transfer across since those only show up if they've loaded the AOL software first. There's also a local phone company here that has a software disk which I loathe. Their software (which constantly resets "Always dial") will not uninstall unless the disk can be found and put in the drive, so it is not always possible to remove it since the disk has long since been lost. You can get around it if you know what to do, but that's the annoying part, you have to know what to do, and not simply do what should be obvious.
I install cable internet in people's homes, and there are only certain bits of software that we might install depending on the situation: If their IE is only version 4, I upgrade them to 5.5 SP2 (I don't believe they benefit from having 6), and throw on the latest cumulative patch behind it. I am to ensure that they have a workable version of Realplayer and Quicktime. I say 'ugh' to Realplayer but it's not my fault that so many misguided web operators choose to put their content in that format. When I install RP I make sure to disable their stupid tray icon. If I notice that gohip, CommonName, Netsetter, or other beasties are present, I remove them, and explain to the customer why this is happening. I do some other extras that are not required of me, like checking out their system for scary open ports (like 27374, etc), showing them windowsupdate.com, helping them install Zone Alarm if they are concerned about having a firewall, etc..
If I was required to install spyware/you're-staying-with-us-no-matter-whatware
Re:Just do the Common Sense thing... (Score:2, Interesting)
You can easily write an installer that will leave files behind. The best places are usually places like winnt/system32. After all that's were all the upgraded system dll's are placed, and since there's so many files there people don't seem to look that hard. Personally I'd be looking through other things most notably though would be windows nt services to see if they plugged in anything spicy there.
Just remember just because you "uninstall" something doesn't mean it still isn't there.
Re:Missing the point? (Score:3, Interesting)
We had a special contract with dell that gave us the phone number that would take us directly to the top level of support. Basically we would call and say "I have a gx110 with a bad motherboard." then we give the tech the numbers off the back of the machine. Usually within 24 hrs (or as few as 16), i had a new part.
I think it would be neat if the local offices for these broadband companies would do a 1 minute interview with the caller the first time they accessed tech support. If the caller matches certain criteria, and can prove himself to not be an idiot. Then he should be granted the ability to get past the front line techs.
Not that this would ever happen, and its all full of possible problems, but a guy can dream right?
my installation (Score:2, Interesting)
Then they were just going to drill a hole in the wall and pull the cable through. No. Wall plate. So they go out and get a wall plate from the truck. (they have this stuff, they just don't want to USE it!) So he makes a hole in the plate and is preceeding to pull the coax THROUGH the plate. No. "Have you EVER done this before? Get a feed-through connector!" I could see in his eyes, "crap... that's TWO more connections I'm going to have to crimp..." And so we finally have a good hardware installation, and they cut me a nice 5ft length of coax to jump between the wall and the modem. The guy has a nic card in his hand and starts trying to find the computer. Heh, laptop, fewl. He gets out his magic CD and I simply say "No." He realized long before this that I wasn't worth fighting with and just had me initial that I had refused their software install.
I can't claim total victory though. They assured me the modem would take a few hours to sync up, and that they couldn't stay to make sure it was working, so I let them leave. Half an hour later I got impatient and called the service number, and they assured me they were required to stay until the sync light was on. Owell. A few minutes into the call the sync came on and all was well anyway.
Since then I have talked with numerous people that have allowed the techs to install the software, and it's really annoying. I don't know what all covert things it is capable of, but it has the obvious effect of messing with your browser by changing the animation icon to an animation of the company's logo, and of course changes your home page.
Compuserve had the same problem (Score:1, Interesting)
I took great relish in pointing out to joe public on their high horse that THEY had agreed to the contract with the "I Agree" button.
Until one day I did my "you clicked on.." speil to get in response "no i did not, the guy in the shop installed it all for me".
hmmmmm, time to leave the country,
Idiots at the Gate (Score:2, Interesting)
Guy comes over, wants to install NIC (but I insisted that I do it myself), and then he turns on the computer waiting for the Plug and Play dialog on Windows. I told him there was no Plug and Play on Windows NT (and if you argue otherwise, yes there /is/, but you've never enabled it and found WHY it isn't enabled by default!). The installer had NO idea about ANYTHING with WinNT.
Needless to say, he left without installing any software (thankfully, since I never installed Internet Explorer on that machine), but he had no idea of the network settings because he assumed DHCP would do all of it (another thing in NT that didn't quite work right in the early days of NT 4.0).
My advice: if you know half your ass about computers, you probably know more about what you're doing than most of the people that install DSL or cable modems for residential consumers. Yes, there ARE smart people out there, but they're usually reserved for the customers that didn't get successful installations the first time around.