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Written Tests for Interviews? 74

University Tech asks: "I am a technician at a small private university in the process of hiring a new technician. Everything here is done by committee. One of the committee members was very offended that we were giving the interviewees a written test after we had finished the oral part of the interview. How many of you have had written tests as part of a job interview? I think I have had one at every tech job interview I have ever had (six interviews) and even two hands on tests. Most of my co-workers and friends have as well. Is this perhaps a regional thing or is this normal for us techies?"
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Written Tests for Interviews?

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  • by ZeroLogic ( 11697 ) on Friday November 15, 2002 @02:13AM (#4675229)
    What do you mean by techie? As a software developer I've never had a written test or hands on test, but I have had plenty of strong technical interview questions given orally where I'm expected to write code on a whiteboard, or notepad to prove I know what I'm talking about.

    That said, I imagine a PC technician would probably have a hands on test to make sure they can demonstrate what they claim they can do.

    If you feel you need a written exam to prove a candidates abilities then go for it. But if you think you can recognize talent without it then why not just skip the test and the stress/frustration that comes with it?
    • Why does it matter what we think on this issue? The company has a right to try to determine if the person they are considering is the right person for the job. Anyone that takes offense should just go home. The world is competetive get over it.
  • What I do (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Here at work we run about 40-50 NT and Linux boxes, and are growing all the time. To fill the growing demand for techies, we put him/her on a free box and give sort of a hands on test.

    It generally works pretty well in assessing competence levels, but a lot of applicants have noted problems getting acclimated to our configurations. Written tests can't tell what a person can do in the computer chair.

  • It's not regional (Score:3, Interesting)

    by prostoalex ( 308614 ) on Friday November 15, 2002 @02:37AM (#4675314) Homepage Journal
    I don't think it's regional, at least I don't think Eastern [ewu.edu] has it.

    Having a written test seems like a good idea, though, since:

    you can show the written test to someone else who is involved in decision making, but did not attend interview,

    you lower the chance of an applicant claiming later that they weren't hired because of some prejudice,

    it gives people understanding that they are tested not on how they dress, but what they know.

  • Not uncommon! (Score:2, Insightful)

    by damu ( 575189 )
    I was given a written exam when I took my job, it was not so much about my computer knowledge, that was an oral and hands on exam. However the written part was about time management, how would I react to different situations, what would I do if 3 different people came to me asking me to do something, etc, etc.
    Giving a written exam is completely understandable, and it helps to find out how their writing skills are, something that is extremely important in IT and seems to be such a lacking skill.

    dam(U)
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 15, 2002 @02:46AM (#4675346)
    1) What is your Slashdot karma (please be aware that Human Resources department according to Proposition I-55544 is now legally required to verify your Slashdot karma before employing you at this organization. Any incorrect information will result in immediate dismissal).
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    _ What's Slashdot? What's karma?

    2) Have you ever been marked as (-1: Troll)?
    _ Never, all my postings are Informative, Insightful, Funny or all combined.
    _ I have had occasionally bashed Microsoft and received such moderation in no more than 2 or 3 postings for my entire Slashdot career.
    _ No, all my posts are marked as (-1: Flamebait) or just plain -1
    _ I am the Beowulf cluster poster
    _ I am the guy with goatse.cx links

    3) Have you ever participated in Slashdot polls?
    _ Always, answering honestly and leaving witty remarks regardless of the topic.
    _ Just clicked on random option and read what other people said.
    _ Just chose the CowboyNeal option all the time.
    _ Slashdot has polls????

  • by TheWanderingHermit ( 513872 ) on Friday November 15, 2002 @02:48AM (#4675351)
    I used to teach. When I was looking for my first public school contract, I applied to close to 20 school systems. EVERY one required a written essay on the application -- some typed, some handwritten. Later, when I worked in a residential treatment program, they had me sit in a room with my future supervisor and write a few paragraphs on a given topic.

    As a teacher, I found that there are MANY people, children and adults who may have good verbal skills, but are completely incapable of using the written word.

    Now that I'm running my own business, I would not conceive of hiring ANYONE (except a sanitation engineer) without a written test. They can be offended or not, it's their choice. If they find it demeaning, or offensive that my company requires a written test, they don't have to work for me.

    I realize it is the University people, not applicants, who are shocked, but it is necessary to know how someone can express him/herself in writing. I'm sure any college/university administrators are in their own world, where their peers all have a Master's, or Ph.D., so their writing skills have been proven in a thesis. You may want to point out to them that you are not hiring someone in the circles they run in, but someone who will need good writing skills. Without testing an applicant, how will you know if this person can write well?

    Another note: at the grad and post grad level, you are in an instutition that deals with a completely different type of education than someone who has had to teach people (from kids to adults) to read and write. I can tell you, from experience, there are MANY people out there who can express themsleves very well verbally, but can't write a coherent paragraph for any reason.

    On the far side of this question, my firm is rather unusual, and I will be requiring many creative and technical people, all working together in a strongly interactive and interdependent atmosphere. I've even talked with my laywer about requiring job applicants to go through a ropes course (or other group building exercise) with other applicants as part of the application process. We figure it would be one of the few ways to see if a person REALLY believes in teamwork, or just claims to. It seems (and perhaps is) extreme, but I've worked with too many people that claim to be one thing (and may even believe what they say), but are really something different. We want to see what a person is like when they have to work with a group of other people to sovle a problem and cope with stress.
    • by gallen1234 ( 565989 ) <gallen@@@whitecraneeducation...com> on Friday November 15, 2002 @08:33AM (#4676091)
      I've even talked with my laywer about requiring job applicants to go through a ropes course (or other group building exercise) with other applicants as part of the application process. We figure it would be one of the few ways to see if a person REALLY believes in teamwork, or just claims to. It seems (and perhaps is) extreme,

      It is extreme. Your company would have to be pretty special for me to be willing to go to that much trouble. Remember, since I already have a job I have to take time off every time I go to meet with you. For two interviews that adds up to two half-days depending on how flexible your interview times are. Add a full day for this ropes course and my current employer is going to start to get suspicious. Not to mention those are vacation days that I'd rather spend with my other team (i.e. my family).

      • You have a very good point. Let's just say that with the type of work we do, those that want to work for us really want to work for us. For example, it's like the time I was invited in to pitch story ideas to a producer for Star Trek: TNG. I knew I was damned lucky to get invited in, and I knew that living in Richmond and working with people in LA would require a HUGE sacrifice on my part. It was such a great potential opportunity, I would have quit my current teaching position just to write one script for them (I have to admit, with what I expected to make on one script with the initial fee and residuals over the next year and a half, I would earn more than I would have teaching for that same time).

        While I don't run anything like Trek, due to the type of work we do, if someone wants to work for us, they really want to work with us.

        I don't want people working 12 hour days and forsaking their families, but I do want people tht view this firm and what we do as extraordinary.

        Oh, and if the ropes course is local (and it is), then it can be done in a 3 hours, including transport -- we don't need to do all the activities.
    • As a teacher, I found that there are MANY people, children and adults who may have good verbal skills, but are completely incapable of using the written word.
      Agreed - my own boss is reasonably coherent when speaking, but his writing is complete garbage. (I swear he just picks a random word for the subject of his email.) However, I think there's some confusion here between "a written test" and "a test of writing". At one of my old employers, I was on a committee that created a "technical screening questionnaire" - a multiple-choice test. I think it's a decent idea, although I wouldn't place too much weight in it, but it doesn't tell you anything about how they write. Part of the problem is that any fool can grade a multiple-choice test - "did he check the correct box?" - but judging writing is a lot harder.
  • committees (Score:5, Funny)

    by droyad ( 412569 ) on Friday November 15, 2002 @02:51AM (#4675363)
    Perhaps you should form a sub-committee to investigate if that act is offensive. And then another sub-committee to liase with the offended person and to properly record their feelings. Then form a sub-sub-committee to assess the performance of both sub-committees.

    Perhaps at that stage everyone will have forgotton why any of the committees was formed in the first place and it the whole thing will blow over.

    • I think you better slow down there - I'm creating a committee to appoint a task force to create an action item to look into the dealings of previous mentioned sub-committee and sub-sub-committee, starting with the requisite fact-finding missions in Geneva and Oahu.
  • Offended? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Uma Thurman ( 623807 )
    Why was the committee member offended? Because a written test might actually help you find a person who is competent?

    I can't imagine why someone who you describe as a "committee member" would be offended at excellence. Committees are a primary component of a beaurocracy, and everyone knows that beaurocracies strive towards excellence.

    OK, I'm being silly, but seriously: ONE committe member was offended. There's always ONE of those types around to cause a fuss. Maybe there's some other reason for this. Is there some kind of threat to this person's job or something? Is this person afraid of looking stupid because either they didn't come up with the idea themselves, or they are worried that a "rogue" department might start doing things without their permission? Are you dealing with a control freak?

    Colleges big and small are full of politics. Half the time when someone gets their panties in a bunch it has nothing at all to do with getting work done and everything to do with sucking up to a higher level beaurocrat.

    Remember the movie "Disclosure?" Work the problem. Perhaps there is some way to find out what the hiring guidelines actually are. Committees run by guidelines. Organizations that have a bunch of committees often have large rulebooks. See if the rulebooks specifically disallow what you are doing. If not, a proper recitation of the rulebook at a committee meeting might shut the critic up.
    • er... ....no.

      I am a beaurocrat, and we are NOT striving towards excellence. Maybe perfection, but the point is that we are striving for something out of reach. If we find any way to reach it, we need a new goal.

      --
      Defeat Efficency Now!
      CheeseCow
    • Re:Offended? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Why was the committee member offended? Because a written test might actually help you find a person who is competent?
      I'll go out on a limb here and posit a guess as to why the committee member was offended: he or she doesn't write well. Could it possibly be that simple? I certainly wouldn't be surprised.

      From my own observations, most people in this country can speak well enough to get a point across, but have difficulty writing a coherent paragraph. Ask the average man on the street a question, or ask him his opinion on a particular issue, and he'll give you a verbal response that's easy to understand. Ask him to give you a written answer instead, and I'd be willing to bet that the response would be so full of grammatical or spelling errors that it would border on incomprehensible. I'm not trying to insult anyone here, I'm just speaking from what I've seen.

      There seems to be a trend in America where the focus - at least during formative education - is placed on oral communication as opposed to writing skills. Ask any recent high school graduate how many of his or her teachers took "class participation," a.k.a. answering questions orally, into consideration when computing the students' grades. You'll find that 75% is a lowball figure; nearly every teacher at the high school level (and many at the college level) place a significant amount of grading weight on verbal class participation. You'll also find that those students who don't speak out at all during class are given lower grades, on average, than those who do.

      Ask the same students how many of them took a history class, a science class, a math class, or essentially any class other than English where essays were part of the curriculum. Of those who respond affirmitavely, ask whether or not the teachers in those classes took off points for incorrect spelling, grammar, coherence, or structure. You're going to wind up with a number so low that it's embarassing.

      Hell, take a look at the average Slashdot post. How many posts have you read where the poster has confused "there" for "their," "its" for "it's," or "of" for "have?" How many times have you seen someone write "taken for granite" instead of "taken for granted?" How many times have you seen someone write the phrase "a whole nother issue" instead of, say, "an entirely different issue?" Now you're getting numbers so high that it's embarassing. If you aren't recognizing these blunders, either you aren't paying attention or you aren't reading much.

      These trends carry into the workplace. I've received professional memos from executives which contained most of the above spelling and grammatical errors, sometimes all in one memo. Far too many people are becoming so dependent upon spelling and grammar checkers which purport to turn shitty writing into gold (cough MS WORD cough) that they never take the time to proofread their documents, much less edit them afterwards. Just click the "Auto-Correct" button and everything will be fine...

      Getting back to the point, guess what? People who can't write well are intimidated by those who do, just as people who aren't athletic are typically intimidated by those who are. If my department were hiring a programmer and required the hiree to complete a physical obstacle course every week, I'd likely be afraid that the new employee would do better on that test than I could do. And that would make me fear embarassment by a junior employee. Damn right I'd object.

      The moral of the story: we need to emphasize writing just as much as, if not more than, we emphasize speaking. The former is the most common method of communication used in the professional arena, and the quality of writing in the workplace is slipping rapidly.
      • This raises the issue of judging the written test. I would have allowed "a whole nother issue" as a reasonable albeit informal extension of normal english, (ditto the neologism 'hiree').
      • A written technical test is not necessarily
        a test to measure your writing skills. What
        writing skills do you need to write a short
        answer like "rm -rf /" or "MAC address"?
    • Re:Offended? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Carpathius ( 215767 )
      I've only been given one written test, and test wasn't about my technical ability, and it was done on the east coast.

      Now-a-days I think I'd come close to being offended if a company insisted upon a written test of my technical ability. I've been in technical interviews, and those are fine -- they confirm what I claim on paper. But I'm not a job hopper, I think that my steady employment coupled with my personal software development business should prove that I'm capable of working within a team and working independantly. The real question for the business is whether my technical abilities fit the need the business has and whether the cost of hiring me fits the budget they have for the position.

      I guess the bottom line is that I have over twenty years in software development and systems administration in varied enviroments. I don't feel the need to do more than prove I can do a great job in the position. And that probably doesn't, for me, include a written test.

      It works for me -- when I was laid off two years ago when the company essentially failed, I had a job five days later. When I took a new job three months later because of poor working conditions, my former manager was essentially willing to pay me anything to get me back -- neither the I nor the company was as willing. But in each case my salary went up quite a bit.

      I guess what it boils down to is that while a written test might be okay in more entry level positions, I don't think it's appropriate for upper level positions. If it's a technical job, do a technical interview. Check references and former employers if you're unsure about the person's writing ability or his or her ability to work within a team. But for upper level posistions I do think written tests are inappropriate.

      Sean.
  • I have (Score:2, Funny)

    by cs668 ( 89484 )
    been given a written test at every interview I have ever had.

    I have also given a written test at every interview I have ever tormented someone with. I really think that the interview process should be evil for the interviewee. It is as much about seeing how they will cope with stress as it is about assessing their tech skills.
  • Note that in the U.S. (not Canada, where I live), administering a test during an interview is illegal. This is because, if memory serves, some people perform badly in test situations and you are therefore discriminating against them.

    That said, I've had a test given me at all worthwhile jobs I've ever applied at.
    • I'm not a laywer, but luckily, some lawyers write web pages.

      According to "Pre-Employment Testing of Applicants [nolo.com]", written tests can be dangerous because "A multiple choice aptitude test may discriminate against minority applicants or female applicants because it really reflects test-taking ability rather than actual job skills."

      Now there's the old thorny issue: If you give a test of type A and group P has a high tendancy to do badly on a test of type A, are you discriminating against group P?

      • "A multiple choice aptitude test may discriminate against minority applicants or female applicants because it really reflects test-taking ability rather than actual job skills."

        That's very strange - surely it's also "discriminatory" to say that women and minorities aren't as good at test taking as white men? And isn't it strange that they could potentially be worse at test-taking, but not worse at job-doing? A well designed test will be statistically well correlated with job ability. If it's not, then we might as well not bother licensing surgeons!
        • As a white male whose excellent test-taking abilities which have saved my grade in a few classes in which I did little else, I may be biased in making a response. Just the same.

          That's very strange - surely it's also "discriminatory" to say that women and minorities aren't as good at test taking as white men?

          I can't comment upon the basis of the statement since I was merely quoting the linked article, but my guess would be that studies have been done which show females and minorities tend to do worse on written tests. A quick google brings up this article [uh.edu] which sites just such statistics for the SAT of 1995. And then there's this article on women and minorities in science [f2s.com] with relevant data from 1999.

          I've seen otherwise very competent people, both male and female, crumble in tests here at college. Heck, I've watched my sisters and mother have the same problems. Generally, the factor seems to be a matter of believing in one's own ability. People who know what they're doing overlook simple details because they're nervous or are worried that they don't understand a problem when they actually do (Why would they give me this piece of data if I didn't need it?). Myself, I was exposed to tests frequently when young which helped me learn the habit of confidence.

          Now, I can't comment on any tendancy of females or minorities to be more timid than males or whites respectively. Statistical studies could quite possibly do that.

          And isn't it strange that they could potentially be worse at test-taking, but not worse at job-doing? A well designed test will be statistically well correlated with job ability. If it's not, then we might as well not bother licensing surgeons!

          But the thing is that two things are being tested: the ability to know the correct answer and the ability to recall and relay that answer clearly while udne pressure. It is that second matter which some might find causes a statistical discrepancy which could amount to discrimination. Like I said, though, IANAL. I'm not even an engineer, yet.

          • Like I said, though, IANAL. I'm not even an engineer, yet.
            Why not even an enigneer? Why regard engineers as less than lawyers? Except on a solely fiscal level would you rather be someone who creates or someone who adds cost?

            NB this is an oversimplification as there is a need for lawyers and they are not purely overhead - I am arguing FOR engineers, not against lawyers.

            I'm reminded of a story of Isambard Kingdom Brunel (an uber-engineer if ever there was one) travelling on a coach which lost a wheel. Being practical he supervised/fixed the broken wheel and got back into the coach to resume the journey - none of the other passengers would then speak to him as he had demonstrated practical ability and must therefore have been of a lower class.

            • Isambard Kingdom Brunel (an uber-engineer if ever there was one)

              Agreed, the first.

              AIH the BBC is conducting a documentary series culminating in a poll to find the Greatest Briton [bbc.co.uk]. Isambard Kingdom Brunel currently winning with a small lead over Diana. (Don't ask me why, I don't understand what makes her Great either). So few extra geek votes would not go amiss, we may even get another true great into second place, such as Darwin or Newton.
              • At least there aren't any sportsmen in the top ten - but why on earth Diana and Lennon are in there is beyond me.

                Another favourite engineer was George Stephenson - he couldn't afford a bowler hat for a job interview so he turned a wooden one on a lathe....

            • Woah, are we getting offtopic. Ah well, late enough for this article not to be seen by moderators.

              Why not even an enigneer? Why regard engineers as less than lawyers? Except on a solely fiscal level would you rather be someone who creates or someone who adds cost?

              Not denigrating engineers. Just a matter of time. For an engineer, it's a four year degree, EIT, PE and you're an engineer. For a lawyer, it's a four year degree, LSAT, three more years of law school, and then the bar exam. There are enough people who train to be engineers and then become lawyers. Hence the 'not even an engineer'.

      • "Pre-Employment Testing of Applicants [nolo.com]", written tests can be dangerous because "A multiple choice aptitude test may discriminate against minority applicants or female applicants because it really reflects test-taking ability rather than actual job skills."

        This is a spoof right ?

        The point of a selction process *is* to discriminate based on fair objective criteria (test) rather than a unfair subjective criteria (interview).
        • Pre-Employment Testing of Applicants [nolo.com]", written tests can be dangerous because "A multiple choice aptitude test may discriminate against minority applicants or female applicants because it really reflects test-taking ability rather than actual job skills."
          This is a spoof right ? The point of a selction process *is* to discriminate based on fair objective criteria (test) rather than a unfair subjective criteria (interview).
          You would think so, but no. The Supreme Court first recognized a "disparate impact" theory of discrimination back in 1971 with Griggs v. Duke Power [findlaw.com] and said that an employer can only use a test that minorities pass at a lower rate if it is a "business necessity".

          Later, in Wards Cove Packing Co. v. Antonio (1989) [findlaw.com], the Supreme Court reversed itself, saying that "business necessity" was a huge burden to prove.

          Then, with the Civil Rights act of 1991, Congress reinstated [cornell.edu] the business necessity requirement, but courts have been a little uneven on how to apply the law.

          Search on "disparate impact" if you want to see more.

    • That's completely false. There are certain laws pertaining to psych, medical or drug testing (permitted with restrictions), but not about simply measuring your skills.
  • by jki ( 624756 ) on Friday November 15, 2002 @03:21AM (#4675448) Homepage
    In fact, if you are hiring a developer for example and the candidate does not have anything conrete which he has done to show to you. If the candidate is asked to program for example 3 simple (and quick) programs related to his/her future work - then both the future employy and employer have much better basis to form their opinion on. Based on my experience, people on LIKE to do these real-life tests, because it makes sense. Why would you want to start a job that you will be uncapable of doing?
  • by gnovos ( 447128 ) <gnovos@ c h i p p e d . net> on Friday November 15, 2002 @03:28AM (#4675463) Homepage Journal
    I don't mean that the CONCEPT sucks, I mean the implementation usually does. Asking somone to answer trick CS questions ("Ha! Got you Mr. Expert C programmer! You completely overlooked the colon that should be a simi-colon of line 513 on the test! You are such an imposter, get out of this office!") and don't show any real skill at all. Sure the guy who aces the "test" may be a good monkey who can perform the exact same task you average IDE will do cheaper and faster, but that doesn't mean he knows how to properly walk a tree or build an object hierarchy.

    If you are going to have a test, ask questions that test a person's ability to think, not a person's ability to remember esoteric factiods about a particular language. Ask open-ended questions with many possible naswers and see how he deal with them... THEN you may actually get an engineer worth the money you are paying for him.
    • This is intellectually dishonest. So you
      pick a stupid way to do a test, and
      are showing that this is no way to do it.
      But you can do the same thing with any other
      method of evaluation. How about an interview:
      "Ha! Mr. Hot-shot Programmer, I see you
      said 'Linux', not 'GNU/Linux'! You don't
      know what you're talking about, get out
      of my office.'
  • Should we administer a written test?

    I think it all depends on what skills a person needs to succeed at the position. If the position requires writing skills, it is a very good idea to ask the candidate to write something. If the position requires no writing skills then asking the candidate to write something is a waste of time (unless you are indirectly measuring some other skill). If there are skills for the position that are best measured by a written exam, then do it. Otherwise, don't.

    I interviewed 4 people in the last week for development and debugging positions. The skills for the positions can be adequately measured through verbal questions and verbal or written (on notepad or whiteboard) answers. So there was no written test. I can't answer the question for any other postion, though.

    So the answer is: I don't, but you might. It doesn't sound at all strange to me. Just do what is best for your situation. And check with your legal department to make sure you are following proper procedure to avoid getting yourself sued.
  • I find the concept of written tests completely acceptable as:
    • By checking baseline competency you are able to weed out the crap
    • It's cost effective
    • It's objective
    • Personal biases matter less

    Makes sense, doesn't it ?

  • by JessLeah ( 625838 ) on Friday November 15, 2002 @05:09AM (#4675684)
    I'm a Unix SA/Webmaster/Web programmer living in the NYC area. In my interviews, yes-- I have had plenty of written tests. Seems more employers use the infernal things than not, sometimes.

    Personally, I feel they are ridiculous. Inevitably, you end up getting asked things like:

    In SunOS 2.x, what was the command used to check how much belly lint has migrated into your power supply?

    What is wrong with this piece of code? (inevitably written in your least favorite language)

    In Perl, what is the function that returns the Hebrew date given the Latvian date?

    I'm exaggerating a little-- but only a little.

    The basis of most of these tests is simple-- rote memorization, and forcing the hapless test-taker to perform tasks with paper and pencil where they would ordinarily have 5 ORA books, a half dozen colleagues on AIM/ICQ/Yahoo! Messenger/MS Messenger to chat with, and Google.

    Needless to say, this is not only unfair, but comically (tragically!) unrealistic.

    Unfortunately, the only meaningful test of a programmer is the one thing they cannot do in an interview setting-- have the candidate perform a real, everyday assignment, with full access to everything they would usually have access to, without the artificial and performance-damaging stress of the test environment (remember, many of us get conditioned to stress out when in a testing environment. Remember all those horrid nail-biting Calc/Physics/Chem exams from High School and College?). But since that can't be done...

    Personally, when I give interviews, my technique is to grill users on their general coding/SA philosophy, and their TRUE background-- that is, not only things they've done for corporations, but things they've done for non-profits, things they've done at home, things they've done while sitting on the john in Penn Station... It doesn't matter where you coded something to me. But unfortunately I seem to be alone with that opinion, and most employers only want to hear about things that you did in a commercial, for-profit environment.

    A sad fact of the market nowadays is that a large proportion of job applicants are grossly underqualified. Most of my job, as I've explained to coworkers, is weeding out, for instance, Unix SA job applicants who've never adminned a Unix box ("But I have a certificate from Sun!")... programmer interns whose greatest programming achievement thus far is "I opened a Visual BASIC program's source code, and changed its background color"... and the like. (Both of these are actual examples pulled from my interviewing experiences. Scary.)

    I personally feel the job of interviewing is easy, if you're a serious hacker yourself. Hackers can always recognize other hackers. Even though many of us lack much ability to 'sense' people (remember how many geeks are autistic, e.g. with Asperger's Syndrome or whatnot), a geek can almost always sense another geek, if they are AT ALL paying attention.

    Of course, in some cases, The Boss specifically does not WANT a geek. If you are lucky, this sentiment will fizzle out before the end of the interviewing process, leaving you to select a geek for the job. But once, I recall my boss telling me she wants a "regular, ordinary" (suit-wearing) person to help SA our Unix boxes. The result was a disaster. We interviewed a number of of really well-presented, suit-clad, well-educated, polite young (and older) men-- absolutely none of whom proved qualified to even TOUCH a live Web site, let alone one of our size.

    After sitting in on an interview, my boss admitted that I was right-- that looking good in a suit and having a few certificates from Sun does not a Unix SA make.

    Anyhow, just my 2c... YMMV. Sorry for rambling.

  • I have applied for several jobs in the Netherlands and Spain, and I was never asked to do a written test. Even if some of these jobs involved a lot of written communication to our customers, they did not test me on this.
  • For my early positions I did have the written tests. More excruciating are the "out of the box" tests given by potential co-workers who are trying to trip you up and make you look stupid. :)

    But as I've moved up, it's been more about what I have done and what I want to do.

    Look,tech jobs, esp. entry level and near-entry level are basically grunt jobs using the brain the way a ditch-digger uses his back. You're hired for how much dirt you can dish in a day. As you grow and mature, you'll be hired for other reasons. Sucks when you start out, but once you've made it, it makes sense. . .kinda.

  • ... at my first job interview, I was asked in advance to prepare a short (15 minute) presentation on a technical (computer-related) subject of my choice.

    Although this seemed hard when I first looked at it, I had had teaching in preparing a presentation as part of my CS course. In the end, I just picked a subject I knew fairly well (interprocess communication - I'd only done it a few months before), read over my old notes, prepared the outline of my presentation, and went for it. (I had about a week to prepare)

    It must have worked, because they MADE a job for me :) [I didn't get the job I was going for, but they gave me a short-term contract to see how I panned out. Unfortunately, I became a victim of corporate shrinkage ten months later - LIFO :( ]

    I am eternally grateful to them though, because they are a very big name in the computer business, and even having had only a lowly position there increased my marketability enormously.

    Back to the topic, though... I don't see anything wrong with testing a person's competence. However, as someone pointed out previously, you're not in a real-life situation where you can't get hold of Google, &c. But... a true craftsman doesn't rely on others; you should be able to solve a basic problem on your own. I think it is unfair to insert incredibly difficuly and obscure questions into such a test unless you have access to the documentation. Not all computer people have immense memory skills, which is what you are testing in such a situation.

    If I composed such a test, I would "weight" the questions so that the incredibly-difficult questions (which you would be hard-pressed to answer without a manual) had a LOWER weighting that the ordinary questions when answered incorrectly, but a HIGHER weighting when asked correctly. Say you have 40 questions, and a wrong answer on a normal question loses you two points, but a wrong answer on a difficult question is a loss of 1 point. Start with a baseline score of 80. With 10 difficult questions in there, this gives you a minimum score of 10 (all wrong) and a maximum score of 150 (all correct).

    The idea being that, you are not penalised for failing to answer so heavily, but you are rewarded if you put the effort into the difficult questions and get them correct. Explain the scoring to the applicant in advance, and you also get an idea of how they prioritise problems (do they go for the hard, high-scoring questions first, or do they complete the easy questions, then move on to the difficult ones if time permits?). Of course, you could have questions which score higher than 2 as well, depending on the complexity of the answer...

    • Oops, silly me. Err, I forgot to mention that I assumed you lost one for failing to answer a hard question, but gained two for answering it. Similarly, you lose two for failing to answer a simple question, but gain one for answering it correctly. Which means your max. score is actually 130 (80 +30*1 +10*2), not 150 as I said.

      Oh well, I was never very good at math(s) :).

  • and even two hands on tests
    Hmmmmm. . . They didn't make you fix a machine did they? Could be a chance for a little free labor:

    Boss: So how many interviewees do we have coming in today?
    Committee: 8, sir.
    Boss: How many M$ machines are in the back?
    Committee: Uh, 8, sir.
    Boss: PERFECT!
  • by Anonymous Coward
    in the Linux Administration Handbook ISBN 0-13-008466-2
    pp851-852 talk about just such interview tests.

    they also refer to these online samples:
    http://www.admin.com/Pages/SkillTestOne. html
    http://www.admin.com/Pages/SkillTestTwo.html

    personally, i've not had written tests, only oral (as the Nun said to the Bishop ;-), but wouldn't find them offputting if i did.

    hth,
    olly.

  • by eMilkshake ( 131623 ) on Friday November 15, 2002 @09:04AM (#4676185) Homepage
    We eMailed our final candidates a series of questions during recent interviews. I'm not sure if this would be included as a test, though.

    Our rationale was that we would discuss experience during an interview, but too often during tech interviews, someone would be asked questions such as "What would you do if the system came up with error xxx?" That isn't representative of the work environment.

    So, we sent a series of questions, letting the person know they had a few days to work on it and that they should use whatever resources they could. That way, we could more directly test their ability to discover the answers to the problems they would face in the job.

    Surprisingly, we often would find out more about the person's personality than their technical skill. Some wouldn't reply. Others grumbled. Others sat down and really researched the questions, answering with their own experience. It seemed in some cases, people would put on a happy face when they put on a suit, but when doing "homework," you got to see their true work attitude. Overall, I thought it was an effective measure of how much they would work on a problem and what skills they had to research a problem.

  • Hi folks. I've been in a few situations whereby written tests and sets of technical questions have been directed my way. Most of the time I've rallied and been ok but I remember once that an agency had put me forward for a role to which I was really unsuited (I didn't know this until I got to interview) and I must have looked like a buffoon during that technical test. I don't personally believe that there's anything wrong with technical tests but there should be a degree of relevance to what is expected, and I think that open-ended technological chats are more productive and useful than the kind of 'certification style' recall the third parameter of the .DoAnObscureThing() method, etc. Remember that an interview is a two-way process - not only are they assessing your suitability for the job, you're also assessing their company's suitability for what you want to do and achieve. A company which relies heavily on the (flawed, IMHO) certification route (e.g. MCSD, for example) probably doesn't really understand development, though I can understand certification requirements from a business and marketing POV. IMHO the only true arbiter of suitability is retrospective - and so I think assessing people technically prior to the job starting acts solely as a filter of those people who don't perform well in technical tests - whether because they don't know jack or because they simply don't take well to that kind of test. I hope I'd fall into the latter! Cheers! JTC
  • You were probably referring to a technically oriented written test, but if the candidate has to develop any documentation or reports, or even if they will need to consult extensive written documentation, I insist on a written test that proves (or disproves) their writing ability. In the US at least, a high school or college diploma, even one from a decent school, is absolutely no proof that someone can read or write. I broke this rule recently because of the good quality letters and emails the candidate sent me during the interview process. It quickly became apparent he must have had someone else's help on those. It was excruciatingly embarassing whenever anything went out that I had not proofread and extensively altered. My impression after fifteen years of hiring technical people is that a significant minority (30-40%) should never have received a passing grade in English. In fact, my English-As-A-Second-Language employees usually are better than ones educated in US schools.
  • I work for a college as well, and recently hired a technician. We didn't require any sort of tests, but now I wish that we had. While my technician is wonderful working with computers, she can't write worth a darn. As some of the job requirements include making presentations and writing (draft) grant proposals, her failure to write professionally means that I need to redo everything she does before it goes out. With university politics the way they are, we can't get someone new, either. So if you can give them a test--of technical skills, writing skills, or otherwise--do it, otherwise you may have to live with the consequences.
  • I've had to take written tests for several job interviews. The first was a short-answer C++ test covering basic and advanced knowledge. I might have minded, but the interviewer did the right thing and said: "We have never turned anybody down solely on the basis of this test." So I was made more comfortable.

    Another time, I had to write an essay about something-or-other... but not so they could see how my mind works. It was to get a handwriting sample so their resident "handwriting analyst" could make inferences about my personality from the loops of my L's and dots on my I's. This was so stupid, and none of the interviewers believed in it, but the company president did so every interviewee had to do it. A major turnoff.

    In both these cases I received an offer and turned it down, but it was not due to the test.

  • I was part of the hiring process for developers at a previous employer. There was a written test given to every applicant. The test was so ridiculously easy that it didn't reveal anything significant about the applicant's knowledge . I wanted to write a new test, but upper management believed that I would make it so hard that nobody would pass it and opted to stick with the existing one. We ended up hiring someone to take some of my work overload who looked decent during the interview and passed the written test. She turned out to barely know anything about programming and I spent more time helping her and cleaning up her messes than I would have to do the work myself. A better written test would have found all her deficiencies and we wouldn't have hired her.
  • Putting together a test that really evaluates the skill(s) you intend it to is extremely difficult, especially in technical fields. Perhaps a university will have a better success rate that other institutions, but personal experiance makes me doubt it.

    I was a liberal arts major that dabbled in CS as and undergrad, and was dismayed by the experiences I had with tests there. Each time I took a test, I would immediately know I did poorly. Sure enough, grades would be posted and my score would be around 60%. Inevitably, though, this grade turned out to be a high A. The instructors were so bad at making tests based on what they taught that only a few students could get even half credit on the exams.

    As an aside, how could you write an exam for a Unix sysadmin? The right answer for nearly every question is some variaion of 'man xxxx' or 'man -k xxxx'. I suppose you could put in a section on reading man pages for comprehesion.
  • I've responded to this topic earlier, but after reading a number of responses, I think some people are missing the point of written test. When an applicant sits down to take a written test and looks at a question and says, "This is easy, I know this. Why are they wasting my time?" that applicant is probably not aware that the purpose of the test is NOT to test their knowledge. It may seem like a knowledge test, but it isn't. The true purpose of most written tests given in the hiring process is to see if the applicant can write. It is a tool for assessing a person's written expression skills. While some posters are keenly aware of this, it seems that a number of people have missed this.

    I know someone will mod this down to troll, since I'm saying something unflattering, but I think it's important to bear in mind why most employeers would give a written test when discussing them.
    • No mod points today, but I'd give you "interesting" rather than "troll".

      I can understand giving a candidate a short written test intended to demonstrate that they can put words together into sentences and organize a few paragraphs intelligently. It may not be possible for them to produce materials from previous jobs demonstrating that specific competence. If I were to receive such a test, however, I would expect the tester to explain what was being tested. My impression from other responders is that those who have been given such tests are not getting that explanation.

      My own thoughts on the written tests that are of the form "Identify all syntax errors in the following block of Perl code" is that the correct answer is "That's what compilers are for." The Army used to have a question on the written exams for Officers Candidate School that gave a detailed list of materials, topo maps of a stream, information about the abilities of a group of men, asked "How do you build a bridge across the stream?" and left considerable space for a detailed answer. The correct answer is "Sergeant, take this pile of stuff and these men and build a bridge across the stream. I'll be back in two hours."

  • One of the committee members was very offended that we were giving the interviewees a written test

    Offended in what way ? Did the test work against their choice / favoured candidate ? If so then the test worked to highlighted a weakness not discovered in the interview.

    ...written tests as part of a job interview? ...

    I've done both, conducted and undertaken written test as part of a selection process.

    In the case of contract staff particularly short term, I think everybody should be tested with a direct test of the skills required, you don't want to be paying a contractor to learn. The other factor to consider is that most contractors probably have more experience of being interviewed than you have of interviewing.

    IMHO, In the case of permanent staff you should be seeking ability not knowledge. If the candidate is a graduate in a relevant dicipline then a written test is rather point-less. They've already demonstrated an ability to learn advanced topics and pass an appropriate knowledge based test. It may not be your current technology but knowledge can be learnt, ability cannot. In this case the aim of the interview should be to determine the fit to 'soft' requirements. i.e. 'Does their face fit?' Myers-Briggs & Keirsey personality profiling can be a good (none discriminating tool) for this.

    So for example: If you need a Architect an 'ENTP'/Prober is a good option. If you need a QA tester, a sheduler would be much better choice than a Prober. A 'Shaper' could probably do both roles competently rather than well.

    In the case of unqualified experienced candidates you typically have no external reference point since the experience and job title of different companies/managers varies that widely. So you have no other choice but to insist on a test. Assuming like me your are seeking ability not knowledge; the test should be flexible enough that you are testing only the candidates claimed knowledge and not the knowledges you need. This is an easy trap to fall into.

    Always consider that studies have shown that confidence is poor indicator of ability, the 'unconscious incompetent' rule because they typically see fewer options, troubles and problems than the competent or able.

    The issue that needs to be constantly reconsidered is a written test primarily measures knowledge not ability.
  • was when I was being hired on as a cashier. Sat me down with a pen and solar calc to work on 3rd grade math. Perhaps that the head cashier was astounded that I didn't need the calculator should've sent off some warning signs...
  • When I was out looking for a job some of the applications I was required to fill out seemed like written tests. Even though I had a full resume with all of my information I had to keep a backup sheet on hand with dates, addresses, past bosses, phone numbers, etc of the last few years. Keep in mind that I already had an interview setup and they had my resume... it's not like I came through the front door and asked if they had any openings.

    Most likely they just wanted to check and see if I could write clearly and remember the rules to writing simple things like their, there and they're.
  • I've had a couple of written tests for jobs. And really I can see them as being useful depending upon the type of position, and the type of test. The two that come to mind were rather different. In neither of those cases did I actually get the job though. The first test was an aptitude test. Meaning general questions of a problem solving nature. Almost like an IQ test except with less requirement for prior knowledge and more ability to adapt and deduce by logic. The test was pretty easy, although I hadn't expected it and really with they had offered coffee while I was taking the thing. The second case was asking specific questions about MS Office. Questions such as the sequence of menu commands to access a specific feature. It was a little difficult since a) I don't use most of Office and b) I just use the tool, I don't memorize it. Obviously the first test was the better of the two. However, if the second case people were looking for mindless attention to detail and the ability to regurgitate on command theirs was the better test. It is difficult for a pen/paper test to show adaptability, tenacity, determination, information retention, quick-thinking, insight... I believe that some places starting using more obscure tests such as having lego blocks given to the person and telling them to `make something'. Again, this is a very specific style of exam and also very subjective; it does offer a different level of insight into the person being tested. And that after all is the main focus of the test, to get the extra insight that the oral exam perhaps missed so as to make the better choice.
  • by DEBEDb ( 456706 ) on Friday November 15, 2002 @08:29PM (#4682245) Homepage Journal
    How ironic... I have yet to hear about
    someone become offended (other than the
    candidate) when being subjected to humiliating
    practices like drug tests (hand over your
    urine, and, please, piss while we watch).
    That is fine, of course. But a written test
    of skill... oh the horror...
  • Out of the five jobs I've had out of college, only one (my second) required a written exam, which they told me was a salary placement test (for their own use) since I would be working on federal contracts. For my previous job, I had to take one of those ridiculous personality tests on the computer. And I don't think I have ever had to take tests for any job I didn't get. But my third job (at a biotech company), at the interview, the CIO and SDM asked me some oldschool computer questions that only a former IBM employee or computer science purist would have known the answers to!

    Now, if I was the manager doing the hiring, I would create a written test. There is value in it.

Intel CPUs are not defective, they just act that way. -- Henry Spencer

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