Jobs for Students - Where Are They? 161
jtpalinmajere asks: "The past few years students like myself have found themselves in an ominously precarious situation. This is to say that the availability for jobs in the computer industry that are suited well for fresh meat graduates are dwindling at an alarming rate. Personally, I graduate this coming Spring and have been job searching for the past semester with little if any success at finding a prospective future employer. The placement office at my university hasn't been too helpful for many students in the CS department. The only companies that I have come in contact with that might consider fresh graduates are Microsoft and government agencies such as the FBI. If I can actually compete with the 76% foreign immigrant population of Microsoft then I might see that as a fairly good start, though the odds don't seem to roll in my favor. As far as the government is concerned, I'm simply not old enough for any job that gets paid more than minimum wage and has actual job security. Most of my job searching has been conducted through services like Dice and Monster. 99% of the jobs listed in these services require 2 - X many years of previous experience using Y software with a current Z security clearance level. I've even found one company that wants 10 years experience specifically with .NET -- go figure! I'm not looking for the dream job that everyone hopes to one day attain. I'm looking for a job that will simply get me into the industry with a meager salary large enough to sustain life. How many other students find themselves in my position? What are some opinions, particularly from our non-students, for soon to be graduates like myself?"
Welcome to the Jungle (Score:5, Insightful)
Network...
Don't burn bridges...
Wear clean underwear...
?...
Profit
Immigrants (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you will find that the vast majority of non-US citizens at Microsoft, or any other organization that hire H1Bs for that matter, aren't fresh graduates, but were already experienced software developers before the H1B is granted. It would be very difficult under the terms of H1B to hire fresh graduates, as one of the conditions is that the holder must have skills that are not in ready supply in the US.
Therefore, these people are entirely irrelevant; you wouldn't be competing with them for an entry level job anyway.
Gettin a job (Score:5, Insightful)
Go to the employers directly, send in your resume. It shows initiative if you call a company and ask to speek to HR or the hirer, depending on the size of the company.
I work for a small company (im not out of uni yet) and have heard that small companies are good for jobs, but don't advertise much. I hear this stuff through the "channel". Network some Wetware and hunt down a job.
Work + Uni (Score:3, Insightful)
All I can suggest is that you seek out any opportunity to work while you study - the workload is heavier, but your chances of being employed at the end are far greater.
good point (Score:5, Insightful)
That's about right. My grandpa needed to be 18 and just graduated from high school to get a good job that could support a family. My father needed to have a 4 year degree for the same thing. I needed a degree and a few years of experience before I found a decent job.
At this rate our grandchildren are going to have to be retired before they can get a decent job.
Have you looked at your university? (Score:4, Insightful)
The real problem is waiting until you get out of college. IT departments in colleges are much more willing to hire students, because they can count more on the person actually sticking around if he's got two or three years of school left.
Re:Do what the H1B's do... (Score:5, Insightful)
Care to back that up? Lying on an H1B application results in a 10-year ban from travelling to the US, so it's not something that anyone would do lightly. And it's not just a HR department checking up on you, it's the INS. And if a company decides to stretch the truth a little in a pitch about the experience of its employees, that's not necessarily the employee's fault.
Or was that just another whiny "the dang foreigners are takin' all our jobs and women" remark? Remember, the only difference between you and a green card holder is that your parents caught an earlier flight or boat.
Can anyone can 'sustain life' at entry level? (Score:4, Insightful)
I think one thing going against you is a lot of adults, regardless of their field, are going back to get their first or even second degree and very likely their Masters' because they are either currently unemployed or very worried about the security of their current job. I know that despite my experience I am ready to start night classes and finish my degree; and I'm far closer to 30 than you are.
That's even with a $28 an hour job - specifically because it is a consultant gig and I won't be making $60 thousand this year or next unless I can roll out of this position and right into the next one... and I'm scared that that won't happen. Yeah, scared. You get a bunch of hard working people afraid they aren't going to make it and they start exercising a lot of options to make themselves viable in a tough market.
On the other hand; there have to be a considerable number of IT jobs that aren't just support or "network engineering/administration" and the like. I know a kid that just finished college with his Comp. Sci. major but he focused on chip design and already has a cushy; if not extremely high paying right off the bat job in a clean room. At least his foot is in the door.
Don't count yourself out yet. Check with your [city/county government] employment service and don't forget your college likely has resources and internship provisions for you. My current contract is in a place I didn't think would be likely to have IT employment opportunities.
Last, forget the "TS SCI/Poly required" jobs, unless you go somewhere that indicates on the announcement they will hire you then clear you or clear you before you are officially hired like the State Department - they still need about 100 IT Management Specialists I think, and thanks to my stupidity a few years ago I won't be one of them right now (nothing criminal; just shouldn't have held a grudge after I left [non-classified] civilian government service). The 'you must have current active clearance' jobs are often most suited for military folks that will very likely never get out of a classified work environment - not that they would want to with some of the salaries they will get paid. Then again, maybe four or eight years in the service (with a college degree I don't think Officer School would be that difficult for you to get into) would do you some good and at least guarantee you a roof and meals; and maybe even help pay off your college bills. There's private consulting, government contracting, then defense contracting - and with this Homeland Security business they want everyone to have some clearance or other - odd that the more people cleared to access information the more likely it is that information will not remain secret, but that is another topic for another day.
Take what you want from this comment and leave the rest; but I wish you the best of luck. Keep your chin up and don't take it too hard that there are probably 4 or 5 thousand former Worldcom, Global Crossing and other IT/telecom employees vying for that same job. Sometimes youth works for you not against you.
Move into parents house (Score:3, Insightful)
I recently lost my job because I would not let my employer screw me (not literly, financially)... So now.. I atleast have the chance to have a love life... I only have car payments, cell phone bills, and other expenses that my parents are kind enough to pay for me.
Tip: Don't worry about it... You will find a job, In the mean time, focus on your love life.
Work on apps that make you relevant (Score:2, Insightful)
2. Lots of companies will take a fresh college grad if it's the right kind of person -- they just don't necessarily advertise that on Monster (since they'd be neck-deep in unqualified resumes). Instead, they go to career fairs at selective universities. Try going to one of those or at least getting a list of attending companies. Then submit your resume directly with a cover letter that explains how you're ready to be relevant right away. (see #1)
Re:Do what the H1B's do... (Score:3, Insightful)
Unless you are Blackfoot, Cherokee, etc. but that is an entirely different can of worms. I just sigh, shrug my shoulders and mutter "white people" a lot.
I think we Americans take far too much for granted; and few of us appreciate what we have or are willing to work hard for it. Those of us that do are likely to ride out dips like this and hopefully be better off personally and professionally in the long run.
Re:Welcome to the Jungle (Score:4, Insightful)
In my experience, the only and I mean only way to get a job is to already know someone in the company. Quite simply, if you send your resume directly to a company with no references in side, most likely it won't even be read and you certainly won't get an interview. You *have* to know someone. This is also good because especially in the tech. industry the person you know will usually get a bonus for "finding" you.
Like the poster above said, hopefully you did internships and didn't slack off. Call people you know (even relatives) and see if they have any leads.
Re:good point (Score:3, Insightful)
Grandpa probably paid no income taxes until he was well established, and even your father paid far less taxes than you will. It's not just a matter of earning more, there's a far higher tax burden today than in the past, even before you toss in FICA taking money out of the first dollar you earn.
Grandpa probably started out in a room at the Y with a hot plate, maybe, and a common bathroom down the hall. Your father probably started out in a small efficiency. But today it's hard to find cheap but safe housing - almost everyone would rather pay hundreds per month for every luxury today, than save and invest the money so that they might be able to afford their own property with the same amenities in a decade or two.
Grandpa probably walked to work, or rode a tram. People lived in cities close to work, not in suburbs. Your father could have ridden the bus, or gotten a used car with minimal features. But today you need a car (unless you're in some core cities), and that car has a laundry list of federally mandated safety features and a second laundry list driven by market forces.
Ditto laundry, clothing, travel and recreation, etc.
Don't get me wrong - life today is far more comfortable and safer than in your father's or grandfather's day. But it is also much harder to get established, and even people who are willing to make short-term compromises for long-term benefit find it difficult because of the lack of availability.
Re:Immigrants (Score:3, Insightful)
What is it about being American that makes you a better choice for a job? What if I required you to buy an American car because you are an American citizen and the car was made by American citizens? What about an American TV? And what if those American cars and TVs were all twice as expensive because the manufacturers knew that people would be forced to buy them? Even if you wanted an American car or TV, do you think it would be fair?
If someone with the same skills as you is willing to work for less money than you are, why shouldn't they be hired? Maybe you should ask for less money.
Living beyond your means. (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe you should stop living beyond your means then?
Sell the house and buy a cheaper one.
Car payments got you down? Sell it, buy a cheaper one. You can get a good used car for $3000 or less. My '93 Dodge Spirit is worth less than $2000 now. It's old, it's high mileage, BUT IT RUNS and that's all that matters.
All this post amounts to is, "WAAH-WAAH! THE MARKET CORRECTED ITSELF AND I CAN'T KEEP UP MY OLD LIFESTYLE!"
Its not just the US (Score:1, Insightful)
Out of the ~ 30 people doing honours (which is an extra year in
The big companies are hiring - IBM isn't taking anyone for IT in their graduate program, PwC isn't either, Accenture took about 5-10 people Australia-wide who are graduating now to start work in November 2003 - a year after graduation.
The small companies aren't hiring either - several of them had first level interviews, and then didn't do anything else because they decided not to take graduates.
I (and others) have had several genuine offers from people who would be happy to hire me except for current hiring freezes.
Personally, I have a temporary 4-6 month job starting in a few weeks, and I'm hoping that the job market will have improved by then.
Its not getting people interested in hiring me - I have a good academic record, experience on couple of OSS projects (although that seems to count for less here than the US, I think), an internship with a very large software company (who also currently has a hiring freeze), and so on. The problem is getting people interested who have the ability to actually hire anyone.
Re:Living beyond your means. (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, I bet the stableowners said the same when the motorcar was invented. Times change, and people who don't change with them are lucky to get anything. If he's not worth it now, then the hard cold truth is that he was never worth it, and was living on borrowed time.
A job is "worth" whatever someone is willing to pay for it. Hot skills of 3 years ago like HTML are now commonplace. There are no barriers to learning new skills, if someone is willing to study and not sit around waiting for someone to send them on "training".
It might be bad for some employees, but it's good for as many more.
Your rewritten resume (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't like to criticise, but I'd hesitate to recommend your rewritten resume as an example. Since CV writing is quite a personal thing, I'll just list my reservations below with the most serious first, and let anyone else look at both and decide for themselves whether they agree.
Why are you so picky? (Score:3, Insightful)
As far as the government is concerned, I'm simply not old enough for any job that gets paid more than minimum wage and has actual job security.
So what? Take whatever job you can get that has you working in your chosen field. Don't worry about pay. Don't worry about job security. Take it, work hard, learn a lot and figure that the education and resume fodder are your real goal and any money you happen to make is just gravy.
That's exactly how the IT world worked when I started my career (89-92 or so, ramping up from co-op to full-time positions). Everyone knew that fresh graduates had to go out and get screwed for a couple of years, making peanuts and doing crap jobs until they'd proven themselves. Why? At least for programmers it's a simple fact of life that there are relatively few who are really good at it, and there's virtually no way to separate the wheat from the chaff. So, real-world job experience on the resume was invaluable.
Then came the Internet bubble and everyone "learned" that newly-minted CS graduates from Podunk U with zero experience were worth $80K per year. That was an aberration, and not one that is likely to happen again, because it makes no logical sense.
The job market for IT people isn't that terribly bad right now; it's just slightly slower than normal. To get a job you have to want it, you have to work for it, and you have to suffer a little to build the credentials you need to get it.
So, stop whining, suck it up and take that low-paying, insecure job and prove that you're worth hiring.
Connections, footwork, advice, and expectations... (Score:3, Insightful)
First off, these are my experiences based on looking for a job in 1993 in Boston (which was right before the tech boom, and at the tail end of the early 90s recession). This should be generally good advice, but I can't speak to its effectiveness outside a major metro area.
I lived and worked in Boston for 7 years professionally, never making more than $40k. In fact, I started out at $27k, and usually worked 70+ hours/week for the first 3 or so years. I lived in my own apartment, and paid all my bills without going into debt. It's not really that hard, you just have to be careful and put off anything not completely necessary (like buying a new car, going on major vacations, good furniture, et al), and consider your first couple of years as an apprenticeship. Learn how businesses are run, and suck up all the experience you can. That will give you much better leverage to move upwards around 2006 or so, to a job with less hours and probably twice the pay you started with in 2003. And employers will be willing to pay it then, as you've proven yourself. 10 years after graduation, I now make well north of $100k, and consider it the payoff for being overworked/underpaid for much of my 20s.
Best of luck.
-Erik
How to land a job. (Score:2, Insightful)
How do you get experience, to get that job?
Well the answer to that question is around every community. Charities! Donate you skills and time to local non-profit ventures. Yes, it doesn't pay (much), but experience comes with its own set of perks and benefits.
There are many charities out there. From helping with a politcal campaign, to church based, to drug rehab. Each requires skills that employers are seeking and usually the charities are willing to accept all help offered. Charity work will gain you your experience, help the community, and provide valuable networking.
I have recommended students try this approach for over 15 years and have had a 100% placement rate in well paying positions many of which resulted directly from the networkign gained in the charity work.
Jobs are out there, you just need to be creative to capture them.
Re:Immigrants (Score:3, Insightful)
You are mistaken - arguing that jobs should be protected no matter what is happening in the economy, and regardless of whether the worker has kept their skills current is a socialist position, not a capitalist one. All the people criticizing you are real capitalists, and you are the "bleeding heart".
Protecting jobs at home in the US is good for a few employees, but it's bad for the people who buy those employees services. It's like the steel tarriffs: good for American steelworkers, bad for American autoworkers who have to buy expensive domestic steel instead of cheap foreign steel, and bad for American drivers, who have to pay for it all.