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Education

Free Books on CD? 36

FosterSJC asks: "I go to St. John's College, Annapolis, home of the Great Books Program, for almost 70 years. This neoclassical method of education was developed and instituted in the late '30s by Stringfellow Barr and Scott Buchanan. We have a set syllabus that every student reads in a set order of the course of his/her four years at the college - all primary sources and in all subjects, Lab, Math, Language, Music, and Seminar. Taking a hint, partially, from the OSS CD thread a few weeks back, and this thread, I would like any and all advice about compiling a CD to give to freshman, and anyone else for that matter, containing as many of the Great Books as possible. Since most all are in the public domain (very few 20th century authors), the trick would be finding them, sorting them, organizing them, and making sure you have the highest quality translations as well (the biggest problem with the Public Domain versions of these books). Please help."
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Free Books on CD?

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  • Public domain (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 05, 2002 @09:05AM (#4817645)
    I don't know if this is true or not, but the thought occurred to me that perhaps good translations of the texts might actually be recent (and therefore not in the public domain)?
    • I had the same thought, but then, why would recent translations be any better than an older one? Translations made in roughly the same time period are likely to have more contextual clues as to what the author meant in certain cases. While we might THINK we have a grasp of the various aspects of life in a certain long-ago period, it is highly likely that the resources we used to develop this "grasp" left out certain things. Maybe even critical things. We may have more research at our disposal these days, but can you really compare that to actually BEING in that time period? Who knows what spin was put on the stuff we assume is factual. Imagine some futureboy trying to piece our culture together using some books by Rush Limbaugh. hahah.
      So my gut instinct would be to go with an older translation. But who knows? No one, right? heheheh.
      • The opposite (Score:5, Interesting)

        by jbolden ( 176878 ) on Thursday December 05, 2002 @12:31PM (#4818863) Homepage
        Actually the opposite is the case. I'll use your Rush Limbaugh example.

        Take for example the translation of Republican and Democrat. A modern European might translate Republican as "Christian Democrat" and Democrat "Labor Party". 500 years from now those words might not make any sense and a more generic "center-right" "center-left" translation might be a better choice; or some other alternate analogy.

        More importantly the whole notion of what seperates political parties (primarily economics) might have disappeared. Environmental policy (just to pick a random example) might be the dominant axis and a something like "right wing" might make someone think that the defining features of the Republicans were their environmental stances.

        In other words a translater should probably come from the same culture as the reader. BTW discussions of translations of Dante provide an excellent example in the modern day since:

        a) Dante is old enough to be difficult
        b) Dante is complex enough that a pure translation is highly misleading
        c) Dante's use of language is complex
        d) Dante is not religious so people more objective than they are with other old books
        e) Dante is important enough that large numbers of people have considered the issue

        • Dante is not religious so people more objective than they are with other old books

          Let me correct this to:

          Dante is not religiously canonical so people are more objective than they are with other old books

        • You are right about that. Of course, 1000 years from now when the polical parties are the Weaselies and the Sneezelies, it would make sense for the translator to call our democrats Sneezelies and our republicans Weaselies. That is really what "translation" is. But I was considering one of the more subtle aspects of translation, which is trying to convey the meaning of some reference to a mainly unrecorded event or fad. Here is an example. The now ex-mayor of Providence is going to jail tomorrow. If I was writing a book and said at one point "Thrown in with the Buddy Ciancies of the world", some french translator of TODAY would know that the french people dont know who Buddy is, and would probably write it as "Thrown in with a bunch of prisoners."
          If that translation had NOT been made, and instead, 1000 years ago, someone was left to the task of translating my text, they would have a very, very difficult time determining what I meant by "Thrown in with the Buddy Ciancies of the world."
          • it would make sense for the translator to call our democrats Sneezelies and our republicans Weaselies. That is really what "translation" is.

            That's exactly why I picked Dante because people have to make these sorts of judgements. Most translators have choosen not to do this so you read of the Ghibellines vs Guelfs, White Guelfs vs. Black Guelfs; etc... In other words the translators have decided in this case that the battle between terrestrial church and christian emperor simply don't map into modern language and its better to leave the untranslated and explain then try and translate.

            If that translation had NOT been made, and instead, 1000 years ago, someone was left to the task of translating my text, they would have a very, very difficult time determining what I meant by "Thrown in with the Buddy Ciancies of the world."

            I'd certainly agree that concurrent translation can be very useful in doing a modern translation. The question was about which is better for a student to read; not whether older translations add value to modern translations. Again in the case of Dante I think the translational traditions are useful and over time the translators are learning from one another. In the case of the bible it seems like the translational tradition is overwhelming and distorting the original text so greatly that the clear of the text is often being left untranslated in keeping with the tradition. For example Hebrews 8.4. The clear translation of the sentance is: "For if he [Jesus] had been on earth he would not have been a priest at all..."
            The translational tradition though is to obscure this partially by changing to future tense:
            NRSV: Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all..
            or completely
            NIV: If he were on earth, he would not be a priest since...

            This tense change comes 100% from the translational tradition there is no hint of it in the text itself.

        • Of course, Dante, as a specific example, throws in a whole other set of challenges to the translator, as so much of the Divine Comedy is taken up with sending up various major and minor social and political figures of the author's time. :-)

          • Re:The opposite (Score:5, Informative)

            by Rick the Red ( 307103 ) <Rick.The.Red@gma i l .com> on Thursday December 05, 2002 @02:50PM (#4819975) Journal
            You've reminded me of The Annotated Alice [wwnorton.com], containing Martin Gardner's insights on Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass. Gardner makes Alice accessible to modern readers, as many of the jokes were about contemporary Brittish politics and are over the heads of many Brittish readers, let alone us Yanks. Here's an example of a book that doesn't need translation (English readers can read Lewis Carrol's words just fine), but does need context.

            P.S. I highly recommend this book!

        • Wow, that was so cool, reading about the Republican Party in the past tense! Thanks.

    • by ubiquitin ( 28396 ) on Thursday December 05, 2002 @10:33AM (#4818020) Homepage Journal
      Jowett translations of Plato, for instance, are easily not the top choices of anyone I know who reads Plato seriously. The only exceptions I can think of this are the ancient Greek mathematical works. It is hard to mess up a translation of Euclid, though some of the Univ. Chicago Apollonius and Archimedes texts did manage to screw up the diamgrams.

      Pretty much you have two choices for "complete" Great Books sets: the Harvard set, mentioned here, and the Univ. Chicago's Great Books of the Modern World sets.

      I attended a Great Books College in southern California (Thomas Aquinas College) and found neither to my liking, but instead spent a small fortune on individual editions. Note to Cliff: Great Books encompasses far more than literature. Philosophy, science, mathematics all have great seminal sources.

      Project Gutenberg is as close as the ideal of freely available good English texts gets, but an eclectic choice of web sites, such as Euclid's elements online, also goes a long way toward satieting the desire to know without having to get up from your computer and trot over to your nearest library. Google is the liberally educated man's best friend. ;)

      Finally, for those interested in Aquinas in Latin, see www.tacalumni.org/aquinas
    • I think this is what the poster was alluding to here:
      "(the biggest problem with the Public Domain versions of these books)"
  • Project Gutenberg (Score:5, Informative)

    by AndrewRUK ( 543993 ) on Thursday December 05, 2002 @09:15AM (#4817677)
    Project Gutenberg [gutenberg.net] may well have a lot of the books you want.
  • Bartleby.com (Score:5, Informative)

    by EnlightenmentFan ( 617608 ) on Thursday December 05, 2002 @09:53AM (#4817827) Homepage Journal
    In addition to lots of old reference stuff, Bartleby.com [bartleby.com] has the Harvard Classics available. I don't know what their policy is about duplicating and distributing their files, though.

    And I quote: "The Harvard Classics The Shelf of Fiction Selected by Charles W. Eliot, LLD The most comprehensive and well-researched anthology of all time comprises both the 50-volume "5-foot shelf of books" and the the 20-volume Shelf of Fiction. Together they cover every major literary figure, philosopher, religion, folklore and historical subject through the twentieth century.

    NEW YORK: P.F. COLLIER & SON, 1909-1917, NEW YORK: BARTLEBY.COM, 2001, The Harvard Classics

    VOL. I. --- His Autobiography, by Benjamin Franklin --- Journal, by John Woolman --- Fruits of Solitude, by William Penn

    II. --- The Apology, Phædo and Crito of Plato --- The Golden Sayings of Epictetus --- The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius

    III. --- Essays, Civil and Moral & The New Atlantis, by Francis Bacon --- Areopagitica & Tractate on Education, by John Milton --- Religio Medici, by Sir Thomas Browne

    IV. --- Complete Poems Written in English, by John Milton

    V. --- Essays and English Traits, by Ralph Waldo Emerson

    VI. --- Poems and Songs, by Robert Burns --- VII. --- The Confessions of Saint Augustine --- The Imitation of Christ, by Thomas à Kempis --- VIII. --- Agamemnon, The Libation-Bearers, The Furies & Prometheus Bound of --- Aeschylus --- Oedipus the King & Antigone of Sophocles --- Hippolytus & The Bacchæ of Euripides --- The Frogs of Aristophanes

    IX. --- On Friendship, On Old Age & Letters, by Cicero --- Letters, by Pliny the Younger

    X. --- Wealth of Nations, by Adam Smith

    XI. --- The Origin of Species, by Charles Darwin

    XII. --- Lives, by Plutarch

    XIII. --- Æneid, by Vergil

    XIV. --- Don Quixote, Part 1, by Cervantes

    XV. --- The Pilgrim's Progress, by John Bunyan --- The Lives of Donne and Herbert, by Izaak Walton

    XVI. --- Stories from the Thousand and One Nights

    XVII. --- Fables, by Æsop --- Household Tales, by Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm --- Tales, by Hans Christian Andersen

    XVIII. --- All for Love, by John Dryden --- The School for Scandal, by Richard Brinsley Sheridan --- She Stoops to Conquer, by Oliver Goldsmith --- The Cenci, by Percy Bysshe Shelley --- A Blot in the 'Scutcheon, by Robert Browning --- Manfred, by Lord Byron --- XIX. --- Faust, Part I, Egmont & Hermann and Dorothea, by J.W. von Goethe --- Dr. Faustus, by Christopher Marlowe

    XX. --- The Divine Comedy, by Dante Alighieri

    XXI. --- I Promessi Sposi, by Alessandro Manzoni

    XXII. --- The Odyssey of Homer

    XXIII. --- Two Years before the Mast, by Richard Henry Dana, Jr.

    XXIV. --- On Taste, On the Sublime and Beautiful, Reflections on the French --- Revolution & A Letter to a Noble Lord, by Edmund Burke

    XXV. --- Autobiography & On Liberty, by John Stuart Mill --- Characteristics, Inaugural Address at Edinburgh & Sir Walter Scott, by --- Thomas Carlyle

    XXVI. --- Life Is a Dream, by Pedro Calderón de la Barca --- Polyeucte, by Pierre Corneille --- Phædra, by Jean Racine --- Tartuffe, by Molière --- Minna von Barnhelm, by Gotthold Ephraim Lessing --- Wilhelm Tell, by Friedrich von Schiller

    XXVII. English Essays: Sidney to Macaulay

    XXVIII. Essays: English and American

    XXIX. The Voyage of the Beagle, by Charles Darwin

    XXX. --- Scientific Papers

    XXXI. --- The Autobiography of Benvenuto Cellini

    XXXII. --- Literary and Philosophical Essays

    XXXIII. --- Voyages and Travels: Ancient and Modern

    XXXIV. --- Discourse on Method, by René Descartes --- Letters on the English, by Voltaire --- On the Inequality among Mankind & Profession of Faith of a Savoyard --- Vicar, by Jean Jacques Rousseau --- Of Man, Being the First Part of Leviathan, by Thomas Hobbes

    XXXV. --- The Chronicles of Jean Froissart --- The Holy Grail, by Sir Thomas Malory --- A Description of Elizabethan England, by William Harrison

    XXXVI. --- The Prince, by Niccolo Machiavelli --- The Life of Sir Thomas More, by William Roper --- Utopia, by Sir Thomas More --- The Ninety-Five Thesis, Address to the Christian Nobility & Concerning --- Christian Liberty, by Martin Luther

    XXXVII. --- Some Thoughts Concerning Education, by John Locke --- Three Dialogues Between Hylas and Philonous in Opposition to Sceptics --- and Atheists, by George Berkeley --- An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, by David Hume

    XXXVIII. --- The Oath of Hippocrates --- Journeys in Diverse Places, by Ambroise Paré --- On the Motion of the Heart and Blood in Animals, by William Harvey --- The Three Original Publications on Vaccination Against Smallpox, by Edward Jenner --- The Contagiousness of Puerperal Fever, by Oliver Wendell Holmes --- On the Antiseptic Principle of the Practice of Surgery, by Joseph Lister --- Scientific Papers, by Louis Pasteur --- Scientific Papers, by Charles Lyell

    XXXIX. --- Prefaces and Prologues

    XL. --- English Poetry I: Chaucer to Gray

    XLI. --- English Poetry II: Collins to Fitzgerald

    XLII. --- English Poetry III: Tennyson to Whitman

    XLIII. --- American Historical Documents: 1000-1904

    XLIV. --- Confucian: The Sayings of Confucius --- Hebrew: Job, Psalms & Ecclesiastes --- Christian I: Luke & Acts

    XLV. --- Christian II: Corinthians I & II & Hymns --- Buddhist: Writings --- Hindu: The Bhagavad-Gita --- Mohammedan: Chapters from the Koran

    XLVI. --- Edward the Second, by Christopher Marlowe --- Hamlet, King Lear, Macbeth & The Tempest, by William Shakespeare

    XLVII. --- The Shoemaker's Holiday, by Thomas Dekker --- The Alchemist, by Ben Jonson --- Philaster, by Beaumont and Fletcher --- The Duchess of Malfi, by John Webster --- A New Way to Pay Old Debts, by Philip Massinger

    XLVIII. --- Thoughts, Letters & Minor Works, by Blaise Pascal

    XLIX. --- Epic & Saga: Beowulf, The Song of Roland, The Destruction of Dá --- Derga's Hostel & The Story of the Volsungs and Niblungs

    LI. --- Lectures on the Harvard Classics

  • by mithras the prophet ( 579978 ) on Thursday December 05, 2002 @10:03AM (#4817876) Homepage Journal
    I go to St. John's College, Annapolis, home of the Great Books Program, for almost 70 years.


    Man, I've heard of the five-year plan, and even the six-year plan, but the 70-year plan is pretty ridiculous.

    Maybe you should just take some classes at your local community college for a while! ;-)
    • but the 70-year plan is pretty ridiculous.

      The 95-year plan [pineight.com] is even worse.

      (I get the joke, but here's what OP was trying to say: OP meant that St John's College has had the Great Books Program for 70 years, and OP goes to St. John's College.)

  • The problem with your wanting to use the latest translations is that they will be under copyright, even if the original works aren't. However, something being better than nothing, older translations should still suffice for a free cd.
    • The older translations may have some literary merit or historical interest in their own right (as may the newer ones, but it is easier to contextualise from a distance). Offering multiple translations from different periods might be a good idea too - especially if they can then be cross-referenced or presented as parallel texts. This might encourage the art of contextual reading, which a study of Great Books presented as isolated cultural fetish-items might tend to discourage...
  • Gutenberg and P2P (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Hadean ( 32319 ) <hadean.dragon+sl ... inus threevowels> on Thursday December 05, 2002 @10:11AM (#4817917)
    Of course, as most likely already mentioned, you can get most of the "great" books at the Project Gutenberg website (http://gutenberg.net/ [gutenberg.net]).

    But with that, maybe this is another great legal thing that P2P can come to the rescue of? Firing up KaZaA Lite, I was able to find PDFs of many of the same books that Gutenberg only has in ASCII form (PDF, in my mind, would be a lot nicer to read and could also retain graphics, styles and fonts). Maybe eDonkey has them too? You can always check for them at Share Reactor [sharereactor.com] or Share Live [sharelive.com]...
    • In OSX, it takes neglibile time to create a PDF formatted version of a Project Gutenberg text with nice readable fonts (such as Verdana). Such a text doesn't have as much value-added as a professionally generated PDF, but the advantages of plain-text distribution (size and malleability) out-weigh the disadvantages.
  • Free Books (Score:5, Informative)

    by mindhaze ( 40009 ) on Thursday December 05, 2002 @10:48AM (#4818107) Homepage Journal
    I've compiled a (growing) list of free book sites here:

    http://www.nosleep.ca/links/view_group.php?id=45

    Gutenberg (which has been mentioned) is in there, as well as a few others. I also find it useful, although potentially illegal for you Americans, to search the australian, or canadian archives, as both have a shorter copywright timeline (author's life + 50 years).
  • Blackmask (Score:3, Informative)

    by Loma ( 584330 ) on Thursday December 05, 2002 @11:10AM (#4818235)
    Try http://www.blackmask.com Free books a la Gutenberg, even has a CD of books to offer.

  • Netscape (no installation needed, early version)
    selecting an item from the [global] table of con-
    tents brings up a call for the disc it's on, ie
    if necessary.

    It's an example worth updating & emulating IMO.
  • by dpbsmith ( 263124 ) on Thursday December 05, 2002 @01:02PM (#4819136) Homepage
    The UPenn Online Books Page [upenn.edu] is an index to a total of more 17,000 online books in various locations. This includes all of the 3000-plus Project Gutenberg texts.

    (Note that the Project Gutenberg texts are nice because they're in a completely plain-vanilla ASCII format, each work is in a single file, and the formatting conventions are fairly uniform across the collection).

    Oh, don't overlook Project Gutenberg of Australia, as they offer quite a few works from around 1920 to 1950 which are in copyright in the U. S. but not in Australia. Wait, forget I said that.

    Pretty impressive: at 17,000 works, the Internet is finally starting to approach the capacity of a (small) physical library. A major university library still is a couple of orders of magnitude bigger, however...

    • by Anonymous Coward
      A major university library still is a couple of orders of magnitude bigger, however...

      The only people who can read each book have to crowd around that book though. On the internet that 17,000 texts can be transmited to billions of people.
  • by ninewands ( 105734 ) on Thursday December 05, 2002 @01:57PM (#4819524)
    Between Project Gutenberg, the MIT Internet Classics Archive and various other sources available online what I'd like to know is why didn't someone at St. John's think of doing this before now?

    While I haven't tried the WHOLE book list yet, I have built up a collection of ALL the first-year booklist in less than one and a half hours usuing ONLY PG and classics.mit.edu. Every title that was NOT available at PG was available at the MIT site and it was all HTML to boot (which in my mind, at least, is vastly preferable for reading than plain ASCII text).
  • yet another source (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I'm not only an anonymous coward, I'm lazy as well so I'm not going to check the curriculum, but http://books.mirror.org has links to numerous public domain texts online, many in html format as well as contextual/biographical information about the authors. Maybe it's not strictly what was asked for but it might help.

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