Has the Quality of Consumer Electronics Declined?

NewtonsLaw asks: "With Christmas coming up I dare say that lots of people are going to spend big bucks on consumer electronics in the next few weeks. This column asks an interesting question -- are consumer electronics manufacturers sacrificing quality and reliability for an endless list of features? If you're like me, you've probably got a TV, VCR or other appliance you bought over 5 years ago which is still going strong -- but much of the stuff you've bought in the past 2-3 years is already giving trouble. What's more, it seems to be the big-name manufacturers such as Sony who are most affected by this decline in standards. I'd love to hear the experiences of other Slashdot readers in an effort to get as many data-points as possible. Are you better off buying a $49 DVD player on the expectation that it will only last a year or so -- or do lay out two or three times that amount something made by a big-name manufacturer in the (possibly vain) hope it will provide superior performance and last longer?"

Economy Issues

[BlkPanther]

In America at least, I think the struggling economy is mostly to blame. Manufacturers are just trying to cut costs to bring their profit margins up, and one of the easiest ways of cutting costs is cutting quality.

This seems to be a disturbing and all to common trend, but hopefully they (manufacturers) will get bit in the ass by customer support and replacement costs, causing them to rethink their strategy!

I reject the premise..

[ProtonMotiveForce]

I have not noticed this at all, so I can't really comment too much on the rest of the post.

If the point is "do I spend extra for a name brand over a cheap brand" the answer is the same now as it was 5 years ago - are you willing to pay for the extra features and name brand?

Is this a question?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a house fan made in the early 80s. It has been running continuously for about 10 years, and is still quiet and perfectly functional. I have a fan bought in the late 90s. It is loud, obnoxious, and requires CONSTANT attention.

A decision was made in the early 90s that consumers would rather replace items than pay a little more for soemthing that is better made. Welcome to the consumer culture.

All I want is another fan that'll last 15 years without a hitch.

-rt

Annoying

[Anonymous Coward]

People always make claims like this but they can't back it up with actually proof. Too often people claim personal experience as fact.

"A friend of a friend of mine said his Western Digital Harddrive died out of the box".

Before you make claims like this think about %s of total owners who have had failed devices not just you. This doesn't mean the MTBR either.

Sort of...

[craenor]

The quality has declined across the board, but high quality parts are still available. As demand from retailers like M$, Wal-Mart, Best Buy and others increases for discounted electronics, the supply likewise increases.

However, as more and more people become "Tech Savvy" there are more manufacturers willing to produce the high quality, awesome electronics that modern geeks will shell out the cash to buy.

So has overall quality declined, maybe...but the good stuff is still there to be had. Just don't go cheap on everything you buy.

Sony vs. The World

[Computer!]

I would say that overall, Sony equipment is made to last. It's not the most feature-rich for the dollar, but it tends to work for a long time. I had a Sony boombox during the entire 80s. Never missed a note. Their car audio is ugly and underpowered, but also works forever. Samsung is on the opposite end of the spectrum. Sure I can play Nuon [nuon.com] games on my DVD player, but what good is that if it freezes right before the $$$-shot in my favorite pr0n?

Solid State

[NineNine]

Actually, I'm a big fan of 20 year old hardware, where it can be used. I find solid state electronics from the 1970's to be absoutely reliable. But I tend to agree, consumer level electronics, by and large, are garbage unless you're willing to shop somewhere other than Circuit Shitty or Worst Buy.

As far as computer components go, they've been garbage for years. Everything past the old IBM XT's have been plastic disposable junk, btu for good reason. Most people upgrade so quickly, there's no reason to make good, lasting components. As far as computer stuff, I buy the cheapest I can find, and just throw it out every so often.

Something to remember...

[bravehamster]

Higher price does not always equal higher quality. Sometimes all you're paying for is a name. Case in point. At our shop we've sold a ton of CDRW's made by BenQ (formerly Acer). Most customers have never heard of this brand, and sometimes they act suspicious because the price is so good. We sold 10 computers to a certain client, who insisted that all the components be name brand. For CDRW's, they demanded Sony, even though they were quite a bit more expensive, and Sony isn't exactly well known for it's CDRW-making acumen. Half those drives failed over the next 6 months. This is not a bash against Sony, sometimes you just get a bad batch. My point is that paying more for a brand you've heard of isn't always such a good idea.

The quality of everything now is worse

[mgs1000]

We, as consumers, by buying the cheapest, lowest-quality stuff out there, are responsible for this. The old adage is true: You get what you pay for. As more and more companies keep cutting costs to satisfy out demands for cheap products by using low-cost parts and low-cost labor(China), this is just going to get worse and worse.

Floppy Disks

[0x00]

I swear the quality of these has declined over the past 10 years. There used to be a time when I could reliably transfer a file between machines on these. Now I open a new packet and 4/10 won't work.

--

0x00

Consumer "purchase protection plans"... ?

[AtariDatacenter]

I wonder what role, if any, those play into this? Would manufacturers, as a whole, be more inclined to produce lower quality goods with the justification that consumer protection plans are out there? Or would retailers balk at this... or push up the price on those... or use quality as a major selling point for these plans?

I think though, in almost all goods, there is the perception that older is more reliable. This isn't anything new, but is it really becoming true right now?

Umbrella repair

[Anonymous Coward]

Long, long ago, there used to be umbrella repair shops. Eventually umbrellas became so cheap that you just throw them away when they break (which happens pretty fast) and just buy new ones.

It's much the same with consumer electronics. For example, VCR/TV repair places in my town are either struggling or have already gone out of business. Things are so cheap these days that you might as well buy a new one when the old one breaks.

So, basically quality has indeed gone down, but prices have dropped accordingly.

We live in a disposable society. Disposable cell phones seem like a huge waste to me, but they're cheap [com.com].

Re:Floppy Disks

[Anonymous Coward]

Same with me, My 1999 disks can beat any ones made now, but floppy disks are dying and you can expect them to be crap!

"Cheap" vs. Inexpensive

[pvera]

The "good" stuff is still good. We just got more "cheap" stuff that does the basic stuff only the "good" stuff used to do.

The best example is the stand-alone $49 DVD player. To somebody that is not a total video freak, the $49 does the same job as a $200 unit. My first DVD player cost me $300, a Toshiba that worked for over 2 yrs without any problem. My second DVD player was for my PC and cost me $80. My third one was a stand alone that came as part of a Teac receiver combo and cost $150 with 5.1 speakers plus FM radio (no, they don't sound like Bose, but dammit, that's $150 for a 5.1 home theater). I bought another combo like that one for $130. My wife buys $49 DVD players for my little kid so if they break out of warranty we are out of just $50 (a cheap VCR costs more).

Each and every DVD player I have bought looks exactly the same on my piece of crap TV. Every one. The original Toshiba was the only one with a decent remote, that is the only thing I have to say on its defense. Each of the $49 DVD players we have bought can read VCD and MP3 CDRs and CDRWs. The last one she got is smaller than our digital cable box, and weights maybe 1/3rd of what my xbox does.

Notice I said this only applies if you are not a video freak. To us normal Joes, a DVD plays the same regardless, and the only thing you can do to make it better is to get a better TV.

There are many more examples like this, but to me the most obvious is the cheapo DVD players.

Who cares? Just read reviews to assist decisions.

[Anonymous Coward]

What difference does it make if quality is less? This has always been part of our capitalist economy: high-end, mid-grade and low-end. Cars, clothes, appliances, furniture, etc. all fall into this statement.

Is a $50 DVD player lower quality than a $300 unit? Who knows. Read Consumer Reports (or epinions, Consumer Reviews, etc.) and decide for yourself.

No one can make a blanket statement that says less expensive electronics mean less quality!

Re:Sony vs. The World

[RzUpAnmsCwrds]

I have never had a Samsung product fail on me. I have two HDDs (they are one of the few companies with a 3 year warranty), two CRT monitors, an LCD, a 32" HDTV, and a DVD player. None have ever given me trouble.

To be fair, neither has my Sony reciever, Discman, or CD changer.

YMMV, but I have found Samsung products to be of excellent quality and durability.

Please do provide some evidence before bad-mouthing a manufacturer. At least say what products you have and what has happened to them - one vague reference to a DVD player is not exactly evidence (BTW: Samsung didn't even program your DVD player; )

Re:Floppy Disks

[jandrese]

I have a suggestion for you: Networking. Floppies today suck because the floppy is a dead technology. Nobody is willing to put the effort into building a high quality floppy because very few people use their floppy drive anymore. The explosive growth of personal networking has made sneakernet obsolete.

Re:Annoying

[Anonymous Coward]

Personal experience IS fact. I think you meant to say, "too often people generalize from their personal experience". However, in this case, it seems as though the author is attempting to determine if his personal experiences are, in fact, shared by many others.

I'm sure we'd all like to live in a world in which our first thought, when something broke, would be "gee, I must have the 1-in-a-million lemon". However, that would be foolishly optimistic. So, when something breaks or fails, the only way to determine whether we wre just unlucky, or whether the object was of poor quality, is to ask around.

Sure, I suppose the scientific way would be to examine the sales records of the manufacturer (and any districutors, retailers, etc.), contact the buyers, and have them fill out a questionaire. However, unless you have secret powers (or, I suppose, bilions of dollars), that simply isn't a feasible response :p

Re:Economy Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem lies in the lack of quality standards.

Look at cars for example, if there is a serious problem with cars it will be pulled from the market. If there is a serious problem with electronic equipment no-one really cares.

We need much tighter quality control for both hardware AND software.

Re:Economy Issues

[Jucius Maximus]

"In America at least, I think the struggling economy is mostly to blame. Manufacturers are just trying to cut costs to bring their profit margins up, and one of the easiest ways of cutting costs is cutting quality."

I disagree. I think that the problem is caused by the popularisation of the consumer electronics market. The average joe can't discern quality in electronics. He will look to see if a DVD has the basic features he wants and then check the price. If there's another with the same features but a lower price, he will get the cheaper one. The more expensive, quality unit will not sell and the company making it may go out of business.

It is in this way that 'natural selection' in the marketplace drives away quality products. It's the same thing for hard drives -- one of the main reasons that prices and quality get lower and lower is because aside from speed and capacity, the average person has no reason to buy the more expensive product.

Quality products are being eliminated from the marketplace because average people can't recognise quality.

Prosumer/Early Adopters Vs. Consumer

[MountainLogic]

You will often see higher quality at the inital introduction of a class of product to support early adopters. These higher quality products often include more features. Of course, the early cost is higher. For example, if you go back and look at when a given TV size first hits the shelves it will tend to have more and better I/O, but as the product class matures I/O tends to drop to just the basics.

Look at the back of most current 25" TVs. Today you are lucky to see even an audio out on them. Of course, they are a fraction of the price at introduction.

Ultimately, the mfg has to optimize (reduce) everything to keep in the market place. That includes the features, mfg fall-out and even quality.

If you want quality, don't expect to get it at bargin basement prices. And don't expect to see a selection of quality at Wackmart. They care about price, not quality.

2 words:

[nurb432]

Planned Obsolesce.. that pretty much sums up the general decline in ALL products, not just consumer electronics.

They have realized that if people are happy with what they have, they are less inclined to buy the same product every year *just* beacuse its new and shiny..

Re:Sony

[scotch]

I've had really good luck with Sony electronics. I have an 11 year old Sony receiver that still sounds good. Anectodal, true, but I'd take that kind of evidence any day over the so called research done by Consumer Reports. YMMV

Re:Is this a question?

[Wraithlyn]

"A decision was made in the early 90s that consumers would rather replace items than pay a little more for soemthing that is better made."

There is a small typo in this sentance. I'm sure you meant "A decision was made in the early 90s that MANUFACTURERS would rather sell replacement items than provide something that is better made."

Has the Quality of Consumer Electronics Declined?

[IIRCAFAIKIANAL]

1. What you are asking for is anecdotes. Has anyone studied this phenomenon (if it even exists)?
   
2. Everyone has bad experiences with electronics (and consumer goods in general) and we tend to remember the bad.
   
3. People buy more electronics with less money. So the odds of having bad experiences has probably increased because we have more shoddy stuff.
   
4. Now, if you asked about a specific component (large or small) such as a hard drive by a specific brand, then we may be able to say something intelligent. Asking for an opinion about "consumer electronics" is sure to result in plenty of emotional and individual responses that are mostly useless.
   

Consumer electronics same. Expectations up.

[heroine]

Consumer electronics are what they've always been: for consumers. Reliability has always been the domain of professional products. There was never a time when Sony walkmans lasted more than a few months but no-one expected that reliability from a consumer product in the first place back in 1992. Consumer electronics are degraded in quality to reach the price point that consumers can attain. Recently, there has been such a demand for consumer electronics that people have begun to notice all the quality traits that differentiate consumer electronics from professional electronics. The price to get professional quality isn't 2 - 3 times but 10 times. If you want a reliable DVD player, consider a professional $1000 DVD player.

Re:IN SOVIET RUSSIA

[Anonymous Coward]

Yakovism 101

yeah, here let me critique you there. We are commenting on how Con Elec stuff fails on you, right?

In Soviet Russia "noun2" "verb" "noun1"

So, try this you fail on consumer electronics!

You've just forgotten all the other cheap crap

[Great_Jehovah]

There has always been cheap crap out there mixed in with quality stuff. Sure I have some stuff that I bought 5 or more years ago that I'm still using but there's also a bunch of other stuff I bought around the same time that didn't make it. I remember 2 vcr's, 3 portable cd players, a laserdisc player and countless cassette decks from that period that didn't last. But I've got a receiver, a TV, a desktop computer (now a server) and an answer machine that are still going strong.

I think they call it 'selective memory'.

Re:Sony

[blincoln]

You've gotten lucky.

Then so have I, and pretty much everyone I know. The only Sony product I have ever owned that quit working was a pair of headphones when I was in high school, and that's because I slammed their cable in a car door.

OTOH, I've had an Onkyo tapedeck and CD player go bad, a Panasonic TV burn up while I was watching a video, and a JVC VCR (high-end consumer, at the time) that needed to be repaired every six months so it could play back tapes instead of just recording them.

Re:The quality of everything now is worse

[scotch]

Don't put too much stock in that old addage. After all, you can get some things for free (certain software comes to mind) that clearly has more value than the $0 paid (slashdot trolls and MS astroturfers notwithstanding). On the flip side, you can buy shirts and shoes and other crap 10-20 more expensive than mainstream stuff that is clearly not providing 20 times the shirt or shoe or whatever.

"You get what you pay for" is one of those meaningless phrases that people generally agree with just because they've heard it so many times. If you say "the best things in life in free", many of those same people will agree wholeheartedly.

Another examples is these two conflicting adages:
"absense make the heart grow fonder"
"out of sight, out of mind"
They clearly mean opposite things, but people will agree with whichever one they happen to here. Behold, the power of the adage.

Or take the example of 2 people that pay different amounts for the same model new car. How can you resolve common scenario with your adage?

Re:Economy Issues

[CommieOverlord]

Quality products are being eliminated from the marketplace because average people can't recognise quality.

I think people can full well recognise quality. However, I think the average consumer is too stingy to pay for quality.

Re:Something to remember...

[goon america]

Sometimes buying a name brand is not just buying a name. What you're really paying for with all that extra money is quality insurance. While a recognizable brand name can charge higher margin, it lso must spend extra to make sure that every unit is a quality product -- or else people who get burned will stop buying all of the brand's range of products.

Look what happened to Aiwa. They used to be a great brand in the 80's, then they started making junk electronics that was cheap but invariably broke between 3 and 6 months after purchase. What happened? They're gone.

Computer books used to suck on average. O'Reilly found an opportunity to start a quality, recognizable brand. Now I almost exclusively but O'Reilly's books because I know that almost every one of them is thoughtful, careful, thorough, and well-written. That's the value of branding -- they can charge a little extra, I don't have to worry that the book I need is going to careless and full of mistakes.

Re:Is this a question?

[Ralph Wiggam]

The decision wasn't made by the manufcturers, it was made by the consumers.

When there are two fans on the shelf at Wal-Mart, one is 12.95 and one is 18.95 but better made. Which one do you think sells better? Then the makers of the 18.95 fan sit down and say "How can we make this product cost less and be more competetive?".

Now repeat this cycle several times. You end up with the cheapest, flimsiest possible product.

-B

Re:Umbrella repair

[runderwo]

For example, VCR/TV repair places in my town are either struggling or have already gone out of business. Things are so cheap these days that you might as well buy a new one when the old one breaks.

So true. Check out this opinion from an old tech:
http://personalpages.tds.net/~rcarlsen/ce/future.t xt [tds.net]

And this one:
http://personalpages.tds.net/~rcarlsen/ce/gripes.t xt [tds.net]
under "Most of all, I hate waste"

I think the quote, "Equipment is built with the dumpster in mind, not the repair shop." is particularly telling, especially coming from a tech.

As the saying goes

[Espen]

The plural of 'anecdote is not:
'data'

Re:Everything's crap now...

[Anonymous Coward]

Reading all of this "it was so much better x years ago", I am reminded of a book i read about the british ruling class. I'm sure they felt that things were so much better in Queen Victoria's time or in whoever was king in England in the 1700s time.

Me thinks you are all are 1) suffering from selective memory (ie, forgetting what things broke and only remembering the one thing that continued working) and 2) ignoring the fact that zillions more people, "normal" people, get the toys that we slashdot reading elite used to have all for themselves.

I remember my first TRS 80 computer, $400 red LED HP calucator, and my first tape deck (weighed 3 pounds). All expensive, over engineered garbage. Cut to today, I am typing this on a 512-meg ram, 1" thick laptop, with an 80 gig drive. I've dropped it, left it on in my briefcase on long flights, and have pounded on this for almost a year nonstop and it still works. Oh yeah, it cost 1/3 the price of the first computer I bought many years ago.

Two main points 1) cheaper prices allow more people to get access to goods and 2) no blanket "everything is crap" comments please My cheapie stuff works much better than heavy expensive stuff 15 years ago.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Sort of...

[CommieOverlord]

True, but will be worth the 16,667% increase in price.


Depends on how you view things. In almost any market, and for almost any good, the amount of the price is not equal to difference in quality.

I go and buy a cheap pair of speakers for $100. I can also go and buy another pair for $500. Are the $500 speakers "5 times better"? No, but they are better.

Is an $80,000 Mercedes 4 times better than $20,000 KIA. No, but it is better.

The key is determine whether the difference is quality is worth the difference in price. A completely subjective judgement.

Re:Is this a question?

[DoctorHibbert]

What about all the stuff you bought in the 80's that doesn't still work? Do you keep it around, letting it remind you how it broke? I doubt it.

Its like people saying that houses built 30-50-100 years ago are better than ones built today. They'll point out some poorly constructed house built a couple of years ago that has a leaky roof and doors that get stuck in the jambs. Then they point to some 100 year old beauty of a house that still stands and looks great. Well lots of houses were built really poorly a long ago, but you don't see them cause they're torn down already.

And even a really good house built long ago isn't that great. I'm currently renovating my victorian built in 1892 and trust me, the construction techniques used don't hold a candle to modern techniques.

Anyway, same thing holds with electronics. Think about what kind of CD boombox $200 bought 10 years ago. Now purchase a $200 boombox today with the same features. Assuming you find such a thing, the quality would be much much higher.

Re:Solid State

[ragnar]

Not to nitpick, but by definition if you are able to use something built 20 years ago it is built to last. I'm sure in 2020 someone will be raving about some peice of equipment they bought this year, but until that point we won't know the winners from the losers. Such a person may wax poetically about the good old days in 2002 when stuff worked. ;)

Re:The quality of everything now is worse

[HiThere]

Or take the example of 2 people that pay different amounts for the same model new car. How can you resolve common scenario with your adage?

That one's easy! The value that people put on things tends to equal whatever they paid for it. While there are exceptions ("I got a great deal!" & "I was burnt!") they are based around the value that was expected (and paid for). If it fits reasonably the specs expected, then people tend to value things at what they cost.

Exceptions include, e.g., if something takes a lot of work (e.g., to master), then this counts as a part of the "value". Also things that are intrinsically pleasurable are valued even if they are "free" (e.g., a massage), though one needs to be careful in the use of that term "free". There are often hidden costs (e.g., remembering her birthday, flowers, presents, and time).

This brings up an interesting point in the value of Linux. The value of linux, as it becomes easier to use, approaches closer and closer to the intrinsic value of the things you can do with it. Windows, OTOH, simply by being sold, has a higher perceived intrinsic-to-the-software value. Now I use software sufficiently, that the debits of the software far outweigh the cost, but this may explain why some bosses only value things that they buy. Fortunately, Red Hat is now selling a version of Linux for approx. $2,000 :-).

Re:Sony vs. The World

[Just Some Guy]

I personally love Samsung. I had bought a 19" flatscreen monitor about a year ago. Roughly three months ago, the picture started "vibrating", then died altogether within a week. I had lost the receipt in a move, but the tech in their RMA department took the initiative to realize that if my monitor had a manufacturing date of November 2001, and it was September 2002, and the monitor had a one-year warranty, then it was obviously still fully covered. One call to Samsung had a replacement (newer, nicer model) on the way - cross-shipped at no charge.

Anyone who takes their warranty service that seriously has to make a decent product, or their RMA department would drive them bankrupt.

I've bought 3 monitors since then for other systems, and they were all Samsung. They've bought a loyal customer.

Re:Is this a question?

[God! Awful 2]

I don't like buying expensive items for several reasons. What if the item is of generally good quality, but has some flaw that I hate or is missing a feature that I don't know I want. Also, if I don't know much about the topic, how will I be able to evaluate quality? I really hate having to deal with warranties and send items in for repair, and I'd rather just buy a new one. And what if I lose it or it gets stolen. There's an advantage in owning cheap goods.

That being said, my general strategy is to buy the absolute cheapest item the first time. After I understand what I like and hate about the item I'll be able to make an intelligent decision about my next purchase without wasting a lot of money.

-a

P.O.M. Those 3 words make a difference....

[SacredNaCl]

You know what those three words are?

Made In China
Made In Indonesia
Made In Malaysia

Look...I have a Samsung wireless phone. The first three units I got all semi-worked but had some defect. Made In Indonesia is stamped on the back. What should be there? Made In Indonesia By Children As Young As 5 Years Old Living 30 To A Room Smaller Than My Bedroom Making A Combined Daily Salary Less Than The Cost Of A Combo Meal. .. You expected quality? Cost to manufacture? $.93 Cost to consumer in US? $100 Yeah, I know why there are there too. Cost more to ship the damn thing than it cost to make.

Your (insert item here) is a piece of crap? Look at the POM. If it's junk, odds are it comes from one of the three above. But in the age of global parts ...That can be misleading. If the components inside are made in Indonesia, or China... Odds are they will fail quickly.

This is what you get when you mix poor wages, illiteracy, bad working conditions, and sweat shops.

Welcome to the global marketplace. Corporations will chase cheap labor to make cheap products while exporting the jobs of those who used to make them somewhere else. It's a nice race to the bottom. Forget quality. Forget quality of life. Japan is just doing the same thing we did. Chase cheaper labor and export jobs to where they can get it. Their economy is in the crapper now? Gee, I wonder why!

You see it very dramatically in the guitar market. As soon as a country acquires the skill to finally make a decent product, they move the operation to where people will work for a dollar less. They haven't even hit the bottom of the pool yet. There are still places with cheaper labor, less environmental laws, and lower education ...

Enter corporate solution

Make you buy it twice.

How we going to pay for that new plant? Got to drive demand somehow. Making it fail is a good way to do that.

This isn't to say that corporations don't love to sell you the same stuff twice. General Electric (one of the most crooked US companies in history) does it all the time with light bulbs. Goddess help those who fly on planes with their engines. They can't even make a good cordless phone or a toaster that wont burn your house down. Of course, even avionics parts are being made in China now. Fasteners that fail and kill several hundred people. Yep. Made in China. Thanks for dying on United. ...And thank you General Electric. I'm sure I'll hear from their lawyers soon.

Just start that mantra...

Business knows best.
Free markets.
Deregulation.
Business knows best.
Free markets.
Deregulation.

Of course, even General Electric isn't as bad as Hewlett Packard. When HP switched from being technology focused to being "consumer focused" that's when we got things like print heads and ink carts that are programmed to fail at a certain date. Still half full of ink? No matter.
Still plenty of geeks here who work with embedded applications. Go look into it. Call it what you will..I call it corporate crime.

It wouldn't suprise me at all to see automobile manufactures start to incorporate this into their cars computers. Encyrpted of course --.

Business Knows Best.
Free Markets.
Deregulation.

Re:That's easy

[uncoveror]

Planned obsolescence nearly destroyed the big 3 automakers in the 70s. Now the computer and home electronics industries are manufacturing garbage, so we will have to replace it frequently. I am a computer repair technician, and people ask me what brand of PC is good. I have to tell them that they all suck, unless you are willing to spend what Alienware charges. The most disturbing thing is that all this garbage is non-biodegradable, contains toxic chemicals and is bound for landfills.

Re:Economy Issues

[SN74S181]

Electronics companies are engineering products to become disposable because that's what the consumer tolerates.

The companies are that way now because they've all been taken over by narcissistic machaevelian MBAs concerned primarily with the bottom line, and who don't plan past a fiscal quarter. Their thought process is "if it lasts much longer than the warranty period, we've spent too much money making it!" Those people are ruining the world.

There are real differences in IBM laptops...

[aquarian]

While the cheaper IBM laptops may have the same computing spec for less money, there are real differnces from the more expensive ones. The most glaring difference is the lid is plastic with a cheap hinge instead of metal with a solid hinge. The lid on an R-Series becomes floppy and is prone to cracking. OTOH, my 3 year old T-Series is still as solid as new, despite being pounded on 12 hours a day. Second, and this is the biggest difference, is that the cheaper ones come with a 1 year warranty vs. 3 years. So if you really depend on your computer, the more expensive one is probably a better buy. Basically, what you're paying for is that IBM will "keep you in computer" for 3 years instead of one.

Two Words

[Transcendent]

Planned Obsolescence. It's just a corperate plan to make shitty products, sell them at high prices, and then in a couple years, people have to come back and buy it again because the original broke!

Take audio electronics for instance... I have an awesome radio and tape system made by Technics from a long time ago. Sure, it's big and heavy, but it's made with real nice polished metal that has stood the test of time. It gets the best radio reception out of ANYTHING in my house... better than my car's too. The knobs are big and turn nice (with nice heavy momentum too so it feels like you're actually doing something), the LED's are bright and everything is perfect on it...

Sitting in my basement is a 2Disc CD system with 2 tape decks and a low-lit display. I feel like if i put a glass of water on top of the thing the plastic will give away and ruin it... The nobs are weightless and rough, the reception is like I'm in a cement tomb 500ft in the ground, and the CD/Tape players barely work... They spent so much time designing the thing with beveled edges and color contrasts everywhere that I can't even find any button to press to turn the damn thing on. I could barely see where to eject the CD... or even where the tray was because of the stupid "techno" and "futuristic" bull shit design they have...

Yes, consumer electronics has gone down over the years... mainly the fault of stupid consumers, but also the fault of the greedy corperate SOBs that are runnin the company and make the decisions to sell the crap...

Don't give me a hunk of cheap plastic crap that looks like a 3D ink blob test, just give me a simple, nice looking, reliable product and I'll be a loyal customer for the rest of my life...

Marketing as a factor

[pkinetics]

IMHO, I'd say one of the reasons we buy crap is that we're so often mislead by marketing ads. Look at how well Bose sells their stuff. I'm not trying to start a flame war on audio equipment so don't take us there.

I have not bought Bose so I am not speaking from first hand experience, just based on lots of research and reading. Just substitute any other manufacturer's name that you don't like if you like Bose.

Bose spends a great deal on their marketing and a lot of people believe that the quality is excellent. So they'll pay for the name and think they've got a great package. As long as it sounds close to what they thought it would, their happy. So another satisified customer.

Same goes for any major manufacturer. You set a pain threshold for how much someone is willing to pay based on features and brand name. Companies know they can sell based on their names to the majority of people. Flood the market with all sorts of different features just to have some differences, and you give consumers a wide range to stick with. Find a big box company like Best Buy to display as much of your line as possible, and you've got a good chance for a sale.

How much time does it take for you to do research so that you get the most for your buck? At what cost point is your minimum research. This boils down to cost benefit analysis. Who's willing to do that? If $50 for a specific item seems a lot of money to spend, you'll do some research before spending it. If $your pain threshold is much higher, then you won't do the research. If it breaks no big deal.

Anywho...

pain threshold = $0.02
Cost of opinion

Question is not will it last long

[failedlogic]

I'm all for buying quality electronics, avoiding the cheap stuff altogether. Given recent market trends, long term use in consumer electronics is unfortunately probably a non-issue for most manufacturers as standards continuosly change. The CD player I bought five years ago will probably be out of date in 15 years. A newer, and supposedly better format will be out by then. I've invested a lot in CD's and I'll probably buy a really good quality player before the newer standards come out. Come to think of it, I probably sound like my parents holding onto the record players, 8-tracks... Of course w/ a new standard the cost of the older music will be inflated artificially.

Extended warranties

[lucifuge31337]

To address just one point of the article: extended warranties....

Have any of you ever actually tried to USE one of these warranties? I'm not talking about the "no questions asked replacement unit" ones, which are usually quite expensive and often unavailable, but the repair warranties.

The are most often serviced (the warranty) by GE or some other large unit, which may or may not depot repair you stuff. The may send it to a local shop. Either way, you bring it back to you reatiler and it disappear for some time between two weeks and god only knows how long. There is an obvious and fundamental disconnect in information....you call the reatiler and ask for a staus, and they have no idea. They have to make a couple phone calls, which in turn kick of a few more sometimes. A day or so later you get blown off again.

Then the device comes back and it's either not fixed or something else is wrong with it. And you go through the whole thing again.

Brave New World..

[chewy_2000]

I re-read Brave New World the other day, and I have to say this topic reminds me of the hypnopaedia-induced principal central to their society that encourages people to throw away, rather than repair consumer goods, and the good are made to last a suitably short time. In that, it was (I assume) used as a control mechanism, to keep people enslaved to the machine, working hard to buy the latest. Sometimes I think a similar thing is happening here, but I think it is more a case of companies looking out for their bottom line, and moving off-shore to sweat shops.

Incidentally, I have a very nice (but not terribly expensive) 1993 NAD CD player and 1970's solid-state NAD amp, and they are excellently made, they haven't failed me once. The amp is build like a brick shithouse, wood and metal faceplate.. Contrast that with my experiences with modern TVs and VCRs crapping out on a regular basis, and I think I can agree that the quality has declined. Mind you, NAD are a higher-quality brand than Sony or LG etc.

Re:Is this a question?

[King_TJ]

Bleah.... I'm not going to argue that this isn't a valid way to make your purchasing decisions, but the most efficient way? Not a chance. It sounds to me like you need to do some reading and research before buying.

The Internet is an awesomely powerful tool for this. Use it! Seriously, before the web got huge, consumers didn't have much to go on besides word of mouth or Consumer Reports magazine. Now, you've got all sorts of resources online, ranging from Usenet searches to epinions.com.

I'd rather educate myself on a purchase before running out and buying the cheapest thing I can get my hands on. After you do the reading, you might well discover that the cheapest model turns out to be a good value. But more often, you'll find out why it isn't, and you'll also find out which moderately-priced alternative(s) are the smartest buys for your purposes.

When it comes to features, it's also worth considering that sometimes, you just don't know what you're missing until you try it. Cheap, stripped-down equipment never lets you try out these enhanced features. (EG. I never owned a car with an automatic trunk release. It just seemed silly. "Who needs another motorized thing that can break, just to pop open a trunk lid?" But after I finally got a car with that feature, I saw the value. No more struggling with keys while holding a large item, trying to get the thing open (especially in the snow or rain). Just press the button on the keyfob and voila! Until I used it though, I would never have thought it was worth paying more for.)

Re:Economy Issues

[JebusIsLord]

If a heart monitoring computer crashes, people die. If a missile control system fails, people die. When the computer in your car fails, you might die. A corporate LAN goes down and your company looses millions. Computers are very important, not just comodities anymore.

Solution ....

[dimension6]

Here's what I like to do (well, often like to do) ... purchase the oldest possible unit that will get the job done and contains the necessary features (by saying necessary, I really mean it!). By buying older pieces of equipment, you not only save money (well, unless you buy severely antique equipment!), but you can rest assured that since it has been around X years, it will probably survive quite a few more. A fine example of this is my amplifier purchase decision. I bought an Onkyo Integrated Amplifier from the 70s. It is tiny (unlike the massive beasts that litter the shelves today), sounds spectacular (I am a music student here in NYC, and my ears are as sensitive as can be), and cost me $47 shipped. I figured that since it has worked for the past 30 years, it will last me the next few years (until I move into a larger space and need a more powerful amplifier). The unit exterior is metal including the faceplate (read=quality, not cheap plastic), and has only the things I need (power switch, a few inputs, headphone output, volume control). I have no need here for surround sound (that may change, and thus a new amplifier may become necessary unfortunately), so purchasing a huge new receiver with radio (all of the stations I need are available online) and Dolby Digital is completely unnecessary. When I consider purchasing a new product, I really take the time to decide if the features that product offers are really necessary (wouldn't everyone?), and if I can get all of the features I really need in a proven piece of equipment, then I will purchase the older model. I have done this with timepieces and telephones as well (my pocketwatch is a hundred years old, and my phone is 60 years old, and both work beautifully and flawlessly). I certainly do not use my little plan on everything. For example, I do not feel the urge to daintily transport a portable phonograph with me on the DC-3 airplane. I went ahead and purchased an iPod as soon as they came out (due to their size, speed, and storage capacity), because of simple practicality. Regarding computers, I like purchasing technology that is not absolutely cutting-edge, but just shy of cutting-edge. I'm into post-modern design, so I choose to purchase mainly new decor/furniture/etc. > Overall, it is this blend of old and new that I have found a nice balance of quality, cost, and features.

Re:Economy Issues

[Shanep]

Want to bet? Most people do not know how to interpret even the most basic specifications. When I started out in stereo equipment in the 1970's, you could go to any dealer and get handouts with product specifications on just about any product sold.

I agree 100%.

I remember seeing a $50,000 Meridian CD player that had specs nowhere near as good as a $150 Marantz.

But, people usually falling into the catagory of IGNORANT and often arrogant, buy products that are complete crap and then think they got a good deal.

I find often that if a company is selling a particular item and they suck in a particular spec or are otherwise uncompetitive in that area, they just won't advertise that spec.

The popularisation of consumer electronics has lead to lower quality in order to appease consumers who purchase receivers based on watts-per-dollar.

I've got four letters, that I'm sure you'll enjoy... P M P O. ; )

They kind of sum the situation up nicely, don't you think!

People are, essentially, stupid. Even many of the high IQ types. Because the low IQ types are stupid for obvious reasons, and the high IQ types tend to be arrogant and not fully use their IQ and are thus the worst kind of stupid. Manufacturers don't give a crap about delivering quality to consumers because consumers have a. money and b. no vision of true quality.

192kHz sounds so much better than 44.1kHz hey!?

I can understand the usage of bit depths beyond 16bit and sampling rates beyond 44.1kHz being used in digital mixing decks, where the avoidance of compounded lower significance bit errors can become apparent in the end product without those higher rates and depths, but bringing 24bit 192kHz to the typical end user is nothing more than a marketing gimick.

The situation sucks. I want a return to the days where HP made ultra high quality technical instruments, computing devices and awesome printers.

To sum up a sad situation, my recently purchased HP 48GX... was made in Indonesia.

Re:P.O.M. Those 3 words make a difference....

[DNS-and-BIND]

Yikes, the anti-corporate diatribe there was a little out of place. You prefer that the people in Malaysia would rather not have jobs, period? Better to starve in dignity than eat in peace?

That being said, I agree that the reason that Sony products suck is that anything for the U.S. market is Made in Mexico. The Japanese keep the good Japan-made stuff for themselves. Somehow, I just don't think Juanita from the slums is going to do as good a job as Miyoko who lives and breathes her work.

Re:Economy Issues

[Ed Avis]

Why on earth should consumers be expected to know about harmonics or transistors or any other technical detail? Surely you should just listen to the output and pick the unit that sounds best. If consumers did _that_ then amplifiers really would sell on quality, rather than on meaningless gimmicks like graphic equalizers (at the low end) or long lists of arcane facts and statistics (at the high end).

Re:Is this a question?

[theonetruekeebler]

When there are two fans on the shelf at Wal-Mart, one is 12.95 and one is 18.95 but better made. Which one do you think sells better?

When my cousin built his house, we installed a ceiling fan in every room. The bedrooms have $25 specials, but I bought them a $140 Hunter for the living room. The ones in their rooms are so noisy the kids often sleep in the living room, so they can get some sleep.

Saving money by buying a crappy product is a mistake people tend only to make once---for that type of product. But if all you have is $25, you're either getting the $25 fan or no fan at all. You gotta bear that in mind, folks. If all a given economic class can afford is junk, there's gotta be junk for them to buy.

Brave New World

[ke4roh]

A decision was made in the early 90s that consumers would rather replace items than pay a little more for soemthing that is better made. Welcome to the consumer culture.

Your regular safety razor is an example of the same problem. Steel can be manufactured to be much more durable than it is in today's razors, but when one manufacturer tried that, and made their razors last 10 times longer than the other brand, the accountants quickly set them straight.

Electronics manufacturers are figuring out that they can increase sales by decreasing quality - because you only need so many CD players, but when one breaks, the next one isn't so expensive.

I'm friends with a person suffering from the consumer attitude - let's call him "Bob." Bob likes new things. A new laptop is great. A new house is great. A new (or at least newer than the one he already has) car is great. New, new, new. Sometimes the newer things are better than the older things. The newer DVD player can play DVD-R discs whereas the old one can't. (To say nothing of the quality of reproduction from either device.)

I'm reminded of Aldus Huxley's Brave New World [amazon.com].

Experiences with customers

[Chris Canfield]

I know this thread has died, but I have to speak up.

In college I sold bikes. Real bikes. I sold 200-2000 dollar solidly made bikes out of several stores in southern california. Countless people would go into the store, look at the cheapest bikes we had, and would leave to go to target to throw their money away on a $200 full - suspension garbage pile with the front fork on backwards, the brake levers sticking straight up, easily stripped everything, and no clause at all for maintenence. I'd say about %30 of our business was coming from people who had just thrown out a crumbled Costco / Target / KMart bike after 6 months of use. A large part of this problem is that consumers just don't have the attention span anymore. They want it, they want it now, and they don't need to know how it works. They buy from Target because it's easy, cheap, and safe... and nobody tries to explain anything to them. Who wants to know that unused cables have a breaking in period, and so to keep your bike in adjustment you have to bring it back after 3 months of use... or risk damaging it? Who cares that plastic brake handles bend instead transmitting the force of your arm? And we were in the lucky position that we could explain all of these things to the consumer, because it was all visible if you knew what was going on. The only thing you can judge DVD players on is the look of the box it comes in and the reported failure rates... the latter of which is very difficult to come by, even for employees.

Perhaps we should have mandatory lifespan markings like the FDA markings on soup? I could tell a customer (if they asked) that I have VistaLites that are over 15 years old and have been swimming, skiing, have had the case melted, and have been dropped from the third floor and still work, and that CatEyes generally crap out in a very short period of time... but wouldn't it be easier for people if that was just on the box?

If the Cue Cat was linked to epinions, it could have been a very empowering tool. In my case, many people learned their lesson. Sadly, a sucker is always born to replace them. And many people didn't, leading to the treadmil replacement cycle. I was nearly run over last year by someone on a brand new Target bike whose builder hadn't bothered to put the nuts on the front wheel.

This has got to have a cost to society.

-C