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Escape from California? 142

Posted by Cliff from the defecting-from-the-west-coast dept.
An anonymous reader asks: "Is there any escape from California? I'm a very experienced software engineer (7+ years) with a MSEE and lots of great work experience. Even in this market, jobs in CA are easy to grab if I want them. Trouble is, I don't want to live here anymore. Six figures in Northern CA gets mostly pissed away on a mortgage for a house that isn't worth half that anywhere else, and I'm pretty much just waiting for the earthquake to hit and wipe it out. I'd love to move to the midwest, but decent software jobs seem to not exist. I'm more than willing to take a huge paycut to get a job there, but where to even start looking?"
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Escape from California? More

Escape from California?

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  • Talk to Konstantinos (Score:2, Informative)

    by bitty ( 91794 )
    Hey Konstantinos [slashdot.org], why don't you start up a software firm in Nebraska and give this guy a job?
  • Isn't software engineering, etc. the kind of thing that could be done well online whether you were in San Fransisco or Antarctica? For instance Ambrosia Software employs one guy in kansas and several guys in tasmania and other places working out of their basements, but the central office is in Rochester, NY.

    • No! (Score:5, Insightful)

      by wdr1 ( 31310 ) <wdr1&pobox,com> on Tuesday December 17, 2002 @12:19AM (#4904733) Homepage Journal
      Software engineering involving multiple people is the kind of thing that requires teamwork and good communication. Have all the documentation you want, even use a development process like XP, but you're sure to find there is still a tremendous benifit in having the team work in close proximity.

      I suppose it's just the way the world works, but it's hard to get the match the random hallway converstations. They often result in avoiding massive problems or substantial enhancements. It's also very benificial for your engineers to be able to stroll over and ask another developer a quick question (ideally with a whiteboard in near proximity).

      My two cents.

      -Bill

      • Re:No! (Score:5, Interesting)

        by toast0 ( 63707 ) <slashdotinducedspam@enslaves.us> on Tuesday December 17, 2002 @01:16AM (#4905025)
        I think that would actually be a large hidden benefit of telecomuting with software engineering.

        Since you can't glean info from the coworkers in the hall, you'll probably get it from them in writing, and if its in writing, it can be in the documentation, and if you put it in the documentation, then everybody knows.

        • That's a plausible theory. If writing documentation were as easy as talking to the guy at the next desk, your theory would even be true.

          Alas, when writing, you have to guess every question anybody would ask, and then guess at what their experience and knowledge is, so that you can then guess at the right answer. And even if you guess right three times in a row, writing good docs takes much longer than chatting in the hall.

          Human conversation has massive bandwidth and low latency. Really good documentation can be a close second. But most people write shitty documentation.

          (Note to lame programmers: the fact that documentation sucks isn't a reason to write crappy code. As Martin Fowler says, "Any fool can write code that a computer can understand. Good programmers write code that a human can understand.")
          • I'm a telecommuter. Admittedly, I tend to work on small, one-man projects, but multi-person projects can work just fine, IME, as long as everyone involved understands the need for face time.

            We're living in a broadband era, so things such as Netmeeting and the like are marvelous for exchanging ideas. Real-time video conferencing is possible for next to no expense when using such software. Real-time code walk-throughs, specification reviews, prototype demos....it's all possible with such software packages.

            Since I develop for NT and Win2k, we use Netmeeting. The shared whiteboard, shared apps and video/audio/text capabilities are invaluable for fleshing out ideas and being sure of everyone's intentions. So, no, you don't need to guess every possible question that might be asked, you just have to make sure that the tools available to communicate are well and truly used.

            The risk is that we telecommuters tend to really enjoy the isolation and may lean toward maintaining that isolation rather than reach out on a regular basis to make sure that we're all (project-wide) marching to the same drummer. To minimize this risk, therefore, it's incumbent upon project management to ensure that these tools are used and used well. Doing so will ensure that there are no unwanted surprises brought about due to the development process being distributed.
          • You can get almost all of that bandwidth in a phone
            call. "Tele"-commuting means "tele"-communications.
            Whiteboarding is good too.

            If someone is not producing good documentation, they
            are a long-term drain on the organization and should
            be dumped. Just a rule of thumb, of course, but
            an important one.

            • You can get almost all of that bandwidth in a phone call. "Tele"-commuting means tele"-communications. Whiteboarding is good too.

              Some, perhaps. But nothing close to all.

              I work in the style of various Agile methods [agilealliance.org], including the unfortunately named Extreme Programming. This involves close team development.

              One great benefit is intentional communication. Turning to the guy at the next desk to ask a question is still an order of magnitude easier than even the shiniest phone. And the bandwidth is still a lot higher; on the phone you lose expression and posture, to say nothing of the ability to hand you something.

              But just as important is the unintentional communication. If the pair next to me is having trouble with something that I know about, then I can just pipe up. If I'm making a decision that affects them, they can put their two cents in without me having to call a meeting.

              Sitting in the same room with my team gives me a great deal of information about the state of the project for free. Getting the same info by telephone or email is much, much harder.

              If someone is not producing good documentation, they are a long-term drain on the organization and should be dumped. Just a rule of thumb, of course, but an important one.

              Alternatively, perhaps it's the organization that develops in a way that requires a lot of paperwork that is a long-term drain and should be dumped.

              Documentation is a method of communication. We communicate so we can develop with speed and accuracy. But documentation isn't the only way to do that, or even the best one.

              When documentation is necessary, I use it. (And as a published writer, I even think it's fun.) But it's never my first choice.

              • Sitting in the same room with my team gives me a great deal of information about the state of the project for free. Getting the same info by telephone or email is much, much harder.

                It's not that bad, and I speak as someone who develops software with a distributed team (all of us work from home).

                Some things we do: Heavy use of instant messaging and the telephone. As far as IM goes, we generally have a full-team chat open all day long, every day (right now the project I'm working on is a two-man job, so "full-team chat" is the same as "conversation"). Phones with headsets allow us to have constant voice communication when we want as well. It's not unheard of to set up a dedicated conference call number which everyone is dialed into all day long, mostly just transmitting keyclicks. More normal, though, is to use IM unless higher bandwidth is required.

                We don't use netmeeting stuff, really, although we probably should look into it. And as far as being able to hand someone something, well, the goal is to make sure everybody has all of the equipment they need and everything else is just bits on the wire.

                • Sitting in the same room with my team gives me a great deal of information about the state of the project for free. Getting the same info by telephone or email is much, much harder.
                  It's not that bad, and I speak as someone who develops software with a distributed team (all of us work from home).

                  I've done both, and I agree it's possible to develop in a distributed way. But working apart, you only get information on what people choose to say.

                  In person, you get a lot of valuable information that people don't say. An IM that says "Sure, I'll meet the delivery date," is one thing; being able to watch their eyes when they say it is another. To say nothing of being able to tell whether the guy who hasn't said anything in a while is working hard or just in a panic.

                  well, the goal is to make sure everybody has all of the equipment they need and everything else is just bits on the wire.

                  It's a good goal, but converting to bits is hard. And until we all get jacks in the backs of our skulls; some things just won't convert. For example, having a bunch of people doing joint design by moving around CRC cards has a compelling presence that a screen and a mouse just can't match.

                  So again, I agree that you can develop that way when you have to. But physical presence (and its incrased bandwidth) makes it possible to go faster.

                  • So again, I agree that you can develop that way when you have to. But physical presence (and its incrased bandwidth) makes it possible to go faster.

                    I think it depends on the team more than anything. We don't have any problems with what people choose not to say; but that comes from trust built by experience, which may not always be the case. It also comes about because I'm the project manager but I'm also a very good developer, which means that it's very difficult to BS me.

                    To say nothing of being able to tell whether the guy who hasn't said anything in a while is working hard or just in a panic.

                    This is a good example: We tend to verbalize every minor success or obstacle, so there's no question -- the guy who's silent isn't working.

                    For example, having a bunch of people doing joint design by moving around CRC cards has a compelling presence that a screen and a mouse just can't match.

                    True. There are downsides. But not having to spend two hours a day commuting and being able to live wherever you want makes most of us willing to go the extra mile and find ways around them. I work more hours when telecommuting than I would otherwise, in part to overcome some of the obstacles you mention, but my quality of life is better for it.

      • I've found that face to face time really is valuable -- especially for hashing out new ideas. If you're deciding on architecture, even a phone conference really isn't all that great. I also really think that periodic meetings (weekly?) face to face are a better idea than trying to do things electronically.

        I think that a lot of this stems from two main reasons:

        a) if you're throwing out ideas very quickly, the higher bandwidth of speech than typing can be helpful (even phones are, at least for me, much more difficult to understand than right-here spoken words).

        b) There are some major impediments to the equivalent of quick diagram sketches or showing things visually. First, the computer has piss-poor input devices for producing a quick sketch -- mice are really, really slow compared to a pen. Second, there isn't a overwhelmingly popular, universal, cross-platform system for collaborating and sharing sketches and bits of information, though there have been a lot of stabs at it. Third, the bandwidth used in sketching can be a bit of an issue if one of your users is on a low bandwidth connection like a modem. I've seen some research work done at Bell Labs and Carnegie Mellon University on software to rapidly develop rough 3d models. It's nice, but it's nowhere near what you can accomplish with a pen, a piece of paper for 2d or clay for 3d.

        OTOH, while this varies from project to project, during the actual coding or debugging process, I've seen no problems with simply using text and working remotely. As a matter of fact, it's often easier to share information, since you're copy-pasting errors or other information back and forth. It's a bit disappointing that the most popular messaging protocols suck (Jabber's the most popular one I know of that's actually well-designed), but IM client + shared network filesystem + available phone works pretty well, in practice.

        After all, take a look at Linux...

        Also, a minor benefit of increasing the cost of communication between developers is that it tends to improve modularity -- each developer goes more out of his way to ensure that his code is robust in handling errors in the other developers' code.
      • MySQL seems to work as a "virtual company". They are scattered all over the world - though with heavy bias to Europe, which keeps the timezones together.
      • I've been telecommuting for 14 years, and with the
        exception of my stint at Sun Microsystems, I found
        it a much superior arrangement. It works best when
        everyone is telecommuting. I can't understand how
        anyone can do useful work in a cube. It takes me
        30 minutes to get started on a substantial piece
        of code, old or new, and if my train of thought is
        interrupted during that time, I have to restart
        the clock.

        In a 100% telecommuting environment, the result is
        superior documentation, superior process and
        coordination, and superior individual productivity.
        Of course you have to cull the dead weight much
        more quickly, but it also becomes very obvious
        much more quickly who is contributing and who is
        not.

  • Kalifornia (Score:2, Interesting)

    by kasper37 ( 90457 )
    I for one am getting out of california and moving to Nevada. No state tax and it is also not raping the second amendment. As far as jobs go I pretty much plan on getting out of the computer industry as my permanent job. There is always freelance, and frankly I'm getting bored with it.

  • You might be able to find a decent job... but (Score:3, Informative)

    by LWolenczak ( 10527 ) <julia@evilcow.org> on Tuesday December 17, 2002 @12:08AM (#4904668) Homepage Journal
    You may find a cool, sweet job in another state, but be aware, your most likely not going to really find what you want, or where you want it. Sure, some engineering firms are hiring developers again, but things are just downright slow, and nearly non existant. A lot of things have contributed to this economic downfall... and Its not going to fix its self till many things happen..... I'm not going to go into a list, but the .com economy is a good cause of our current economic state in the rest of the country.

    I'm comming up on being out of work for three months.... with little end in sight. I have hope, but when you have bills to pay, hope does not spring eternal. I say, stay where you are, or maybe commute from Navada. Yes, I'm serious.
    • If you knew how to spell Nevada it might not be so hard to find work. [as well as existent, coming, and learn to use you're instead of your and use 'it's' correctly].

      I may be in the technology field. I may push bits instead of a pencil, but communication skills are essential.

      Now to address anyone with a job right now and what they should do. In my assessment my opinion is 'milk the cow until it dies' unless a guaranteed opportunity comes directly to you for more money in a less expensive location with a company with a very attractive balance sheet. California is difficult, but so is taking a regression in salary. I do believe California will have a severe problem with dealing with the twenty to thirty billion dollar state deficit without raising already alarmingly high state income and sales tax.

      I would also like to point out that the dot com bust is an all too convenient scapegoat for the current situation in America (rising unemployment, deflation in wages in certain markets, deficits in state and federal government due to massive capital gain revenue being lost coupled with increased spending in reaction to sudden new 'needs' in national security, etc). Surprisingly, the economy is still growing, just more slowly when compared to they was it was. [peopledaily.com.cn] Politics and the stock market somehow get coalesced in with 'the economy.' Oversimplification is a dangerous tool the masses use upon themselves. Your gloom and doom is a reflection of your confidence, and whatever the source of self deprecation, it tends to have a pronounced effect on nations as a whole, but it's not enough to snuff out entrepreneurial, scientific or philanthropic spirit (thank goodness).

      Failure can be a self fulfilling prophecy. The founder of Dunkin' Donuts made his first fortune in the great depression. [dunkindonuts.com]

      (article linked to above blockquoted, slow link>

      Last updated at: (Beijing Time) Thursday, November 28, 2002

      Fed Report Says US Economy Growing Slowly The US economy is growing slowly but business conditions are patchy and the jobs market is soft, the US Federal Reserve (Fed) said in a report Wednesday.
      The US economy is growing slowly but business conditions are patchy and the jobs market is soft, the US Federal Reserve (Fed) said in a report Wednesday. "Economic activity grew slowly, on balance, in late October and early November," said the report known as the "Beige Book" for the color of its cover. It said that buying activity continued into mid-November with six of the Fed's regional bank districts reporting improvement in general merchandise sales despite the fact that auto sales were down across the country. "Service industry activity was generally sluggish," the report said. Manufacturing remained soft in most districts and business investment was limited. "Most Reserve banks reported nearly steady prices at both the consumer and producer levels, with the exception of shipping charges, which have risen in the wake of the West Coast port disruptions." The report will be used by Fed policy-makers when they meet on Dec. 10 to consider whether to cut interest rates again to spur the US economy. With a string of stronger-than-expected economic reports, many economists believe the US Fed will leave its target for overnight bank lending unchanged at a 41-year low of 1.25 percent. The Fed cut the federal funds rate by a half percentage point at its last meeting on Nov. 6.

  • Move North. (Score:2, Informative)

    by Trusty Penfold ( 615679 )

    There's loads of software jobs in the Seattle area.

    • Re:Move North. (Score:4, Informative)

      by itwerx ( 165526 ) on Tuesday December 17, 2002 @01:07AM (#4904983) Homepage
      Yeah, and even bigger loads of unemployed programmers trampling down the door to get at them!
      Friend of mine just got hired for a position which received over 800 applicants in less than a month! (They threw up their hands at the deluge and went the word-of-mouth route).
      Another position I know of recently was very low paying kind of boring crappy little job at a non-profit org. and it got over a hundred resumes before it was even officially available! (At least they saved their advertising $. :)
      Not to mention, if you actually bother to read the business section of the news, Seattle has the highest unemployment rate for the tech sector in the whole damn country!
      So if you have a job you specifically want to offer the guy, go for it, but don't be leading him on...

    • Re:Move North. (Score:1, Offtopic)

      by Eagle7 ( 111475 )
      There are huge fucking spiders [penny-arcade.com] in Seattle. That sucks.
  • Could somebody put up the sign on the state lines with CA that say "There is no Escape... Turn back Now". tehehehehe

  • Try Provo (Score:3, Informative)

    by T-Ranger ( 10520 ) <jeffw@cheMENCKENbucto.ns.ca minus author> on Tuesday December 17, 2002 @12:33AM (#4904813) Homepage
    novell [novell.com] is looking for an experienced software engineer.
    • Provo is NOT a Cheap place to live.
      Also it is about 90% LDS. That is both good and bad. I am LDS but I just do not want to live anywhere that is 90% one religion. Even if it is my own.

  • Stay away (Score:4, Funny)

    by Wonko42 ( 29194 ) <ryan+slashdot@[ ]ko.com ['won' in gap]> on Tuesday December 17, 2002 @12:38AM (#4904841) Homepage
    Whatever you do, don't come to Portland. I barely managed to grab a job as it is; I don't need any qualified techies snapping things out from under me. That said, I love it here. But stay away. I'm warning you.

  • Tornado... (Score:2, Funny)

    by *xpenguin* ( 306001 )
    and I'm pretty much just waiting for the earthquake to hit and wipe it out.

    I'd love to move to the midwest

    Oh great, then a tornado will destroy your house.

  • DC Metro Area (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Depending on where you want to work, you might find something of interest in this region. Besides government work, there are many businesses in Northern Virgnia, and lots of stuff in suburban Maryland. And, hey, housing prices are outrageous in this area too!

    • Re:DC Metro Area (Score:2, Informative)

      by xWeston ( 577162 )
      Are you joking? i went to the east coast (specifically maryland) for the first time ever and the houses were MUCH cheaper than they are where i live. The houses being built around mine (i live in a 1000 sqft condo/duplex that is worth $300k) are averaging in price at about $800k with the low end starting at about $600k.
      The high end TRACK HOUSING goes for about $1.5million. I live in north county san diego, it isnt cheap.

      In maryland i saw houses as large as these 1.5million dollar ones for around $500k or less.

      • Re:DC Metro Area (Score:4, Interesting)

        by MacAndrew ( 463832 ) on Tuesday December 17, 2002 @02:41AM (#4905493) Homepage
        Houses here in No. VA are outrageous by normal-world standards. A modest house in Arlington costs what a farm would ten miles out, and a palace in the South or Midwest. Meanwhile, prices in No. CA are other-worldly. I mean, using California housing prices as a basis of comparison would be like starting with Hitler as your standard of compassion.

        Median prices in Arlington have risen roughly 50% in 5 years -- a bit of sticker shock.

        To the poster: There are many many mini Silicon-Whatevers around the country, including here. Things have slowed down with the economy, of course.

        I grew up in California, N and S, and think it's a great state. But I have no question my standard of living (except weather) is better here. Anyway I like snow, damn it, and my mentality is much more East Coast than West.
      • That's tract housing, not track housing (unless you live in a private rail car like James West and Artemus Gordon :-)
        • Yea thats how it is instead of buying a new house people just roll them around. It's really nice but it takes forever to go anywhere. The traffic is so bad especially with the big homes nowadays

  • Send me a resume! (Score:3, Informative)

    by Llama Keeper ( 7984 ) on Tuesday December 17, 2002 @12:56AM (#4904920) Homepage
    Seriously, I'm looking for some good Software Engineers. We outsource most of our development and are looking to move it in-house. Drop me a resume justin@_NOSPAM_Llamakeeper.com.

    JUSTIN

  • Read this... (Score:5, Informative)

    by burnsy ( 563104 ) on Tuesday December 17, 2002 @01:00AM (#4904943)
    According to this study, Movin' Out: Domestic Migration to and from California in the 1990s [ppic.org], California has had a net outflow every year in the 1990s.

    The top states for Californians to move to were:

    Washington - 534,000
    Texas - 523,000
    Arizona - 449,000
    Oregon - 374,000
    Neveda - 320,000

    • Yeah, I was gonna say, lots of techs in Texas, if you can deal with the po lice.

    • Re:Read this... (Score:3, Interesting)

      by ByteHog ( 247706 )
      Damn californians!! stay out of washington!! no more room for you all!! :) (joking!!!!!)

      seriously though, a lot of seattlites moving to spokane/northeast WA to get away from the californians coming to seattleish area...
      • Damn californians!! stay out of washington!! no more room for you all!! :) (joking!!!!!)

        Heh, fine by us in Oregon. We really are full. 8:o)

        Seriously, if you want to to hear a 20 minute speech on every last bit of unilaterlally Californian politics that Oregon's taken splash-damage for, spend most of your time in the rain, get bitched at for driving instead of taking TriMet [trimet.org], and rust in traffic waiting for dozens of weekly protests and advocacy parties, and spend it unemployed, then move to Oregon.

        For the rest of you, there's Seattle, though they'll bitch about yet another Californian moving there, too.

        If you don't want to get bitched at for moving in from California, move to anywhere but the Pacific Northwest. California's not been a good neighbor to us, and it'll save yourself the trouble and the earful to go someplace else. Native northwesterners tend to get hiring priority anyway.

    • I was in Austin, TX in the mid-90s when there was something like 40,000 people a year moving in and the majority of them were from California. I really haven't paid attention to the city since I left in '96 but at the time there was a lot of high tech there. It was a lot of hardware, chip fab and whatnot, but where there's hardware, there's software. At the time, Californians were moving in and were building McMansions in the hills with the proceeds of the sale of their modest homes in California.

      Culturally, Austin has a lot going on, particularly its music scene. Pretty much all the state's liberals are corralled there but it is the state capital so virtually every political bent is well represented.

      Anyhow, it should be on your list of places to check out.
    • My only problem with this is if everyone was leaving in 90's. Then who is moving into all those damn houses paid for by Cisco stock options?
    • Urban legend speaks of a sign on the California/Oregon Border on a major interstate. The sign is one of those "Welcome to our state" signs that read "Oregon, a great place to visit."

      On the back of the sign was a hand written addendum: "Don't forget to leave"
    • If you add in the number of new foreign immigrants over the past decade, California has had a net inflow or at least its population has stayed consistent. Furthermore, the results of the latest census gave California more representation in the House, which means that the state has larger percentage of the U.S's population than it had in 1990. Finally, if you look at the paper, it shows that the people leaving California are among the least educated, and those moving in are among the most. As a Californian, I say good riddance.

      From the study:

      Estimates of the net outflow vary substantially (see the text box, "Measuring Domestic Migration" on page 4). Despite the outflow of domestic migrants, California's population continued to grow during the 1990s through international immigration and natural increase. Although growth rates were substantially lower than in the 1980s, between 1990 and 1999 the state's population increased by 3.3 million people according to the Census Bureau and by 4.2 million people according to the California Department of Finance. According to the Census Bureau, the net inflow of 2.2 million international immigrants was offset by the net outflow of 2.2 million domestic migrants. Estimates by the California Department of Finance imply a much lower net outflow of about 1.2 million domestic migrants.
  • I was looking at heading the other direction.
    There are jobs in the midwest. I would look in Chicago (and suburbs), Columbus, Indianapolis or Detroit.
    All of my work experience is with CG/Animation, so to stay in the industry I pretty much have to leave the midwest. The midwest is really a good place to live and work.
    If you are used to the hour long commute, that opens you up to plenty of afordable housing in the midwest.

    -Tim

  • Portland to Idaho (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Will_Malverson ( 105796 ) on Tuesday December 17, 2002 @01:23AM (#4905057) Journal
    Until the beginning of this year, I was working for a large corporation near Portland, Oregon. When they started downsizing, they offered me a generous severance package to leave. I took it and moved to Boise, Idaho, where I'm originally from.

    I used the package to buy a house, and started living off of my savings while looking for a job. It took me about three months to find one. I've moved from being a software engineer at $62k per year to being a hardware tester at $15 per hour. But I absolutely don't regret it. I'm very happy here and don't miss Portland at all.

    Though my pay has dropped from >5k / month to 2.5k / month, my actual take-home has only dropped to about 60% of what it was because I'm in a lower tax bracket. Further, my mortgage is now $500 / month less than it was, from $1110 to $609.

    Start looking in all of the places you'd like to move to. If you've never been there, take some time off and go there, or talk to someone who has. There are relatively few jobs away from the coast, but they are out here. Check the local newspapers, and see what you can find. Find out who the big employers are in the towns you're interested in, and start trying to contact people within them.

    Finally, if you're unhappy, move. You only live once.

    • Re:Portland to Idaho (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Naikrovek ( 667 ) <jjohnson@ps g . com> on Tuesday December 17, 2002 @04:35AM (#4905748)
      Finally, if you're unhappy, move. You only live once.

      Oh, dude I so agree with that statement. I grew up in Illinois, did short work stints in San Antonio, Texas, and Denver, Colorado. Then I moved again to Anchorage, Alaska, then Kansas City, then back to Anchorage, then small towns in Missouri, and now I'm in Sydney, Australia.

      Man, life is far too short to just dream of other places, you have to take the initiative and go there.

      I'm also trying to get a job in the US, but when I've had my fill of that place, I'm going to Scotland. That's highest right now on my places-i -want-to-go list, and there is no way in hell I'm not going.

      My advice is to move where you want to be, then find a job there. Or, find a job where you want to move, then move there. But don't find a job you like then move to wherever it is, you'll never like where you go because you were made to go there.

      Do what you love, live where you want, do what you like, and the money will come to you, that's my experience, anyway.

      -Naikrovek
  • Or you could...

    get a street bike

    get a dirt bike

    get a jetski

    get a surfboard (and a wetsuit)

    get a snowboard or skiis

    forget bug repellant

    get some sunblock

    get some hiking boots

    go to Fry's...etc...

  • Utah (Score:4, Informative)

    by flikx ( 191915 ) on Tuesday December 17, 2002 @01:42AM (#4905205) Homepage Journal

    I'm not kidding, it worked fine for me. Strong tech sector, affordable housing, good wages for engineers, friendly people, world class recreation (biking, skiing, hiking, climbing, etc.) I was glad to escape California, it didn't even take much adjusting: considering the fact that most of the people living in my neighborhood are from California.

    • YEs, that is one of my more important criteria.
    • Yeah, but Utah is like 99.9998% white people.

      After living in New York City and southern California, being around all white people makes me feel uncomfortable.

      And yes, I'm white.

      • Re:Utah (Score:1, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Then go back there. What makes it uncomfortable? I find it refreshing to go to a place where the schools expect the students to perform and don't water it down so all the different ethnic groups have the same graduation rate. That and the fast food places are actually fast.
      • Yeah, I know what you mean. Every time I've upgraded my housing, the neighborhood I moved to was more white. I like white professional people just fine (I am one), but I really enjoyed the (age, national-origin, career) diversity in the apartments I lived in 10-15 years ago.

    • Unfortunately, Utah is getting to be so popular as a place to live, that it's less and less of a great place to live. The influx of Californians, in particular, has driven up housing prices, caused lots of open spaces to be filled in with ever-expanding suburbia and overcrowded our highways (I-15 is mostly okay right now, what with all the pre-Olympics expansion work, but all of that work *only* made it okay again, and more people are coming).

      Not that I have anything against the Californians (and others) coming here; it's a free country (more or less) and I can certainly understand the attraction.

      Still, that's why Utahns like me are eyeing Idaho, Wyoming and Montana. And this time I'm not getting anything smaller than 40 acres -- not gonna have my view cluttered up with houses again. Bonus points for any place where my kids can shoot their .22s in the back yard.

      No doubt there are going to be some Idahoans complaining about the influx of Utahns...

  • California IS a crappy state, but the midwest??? Give me a break... I'd rather live in Soviet Russia than in the great white-trash wastelands of the US midwest.

    • Have you been to any modestly large cities in the Midwest? I'm not talking about Chicago, IL, Minneapolis/St. Paul, MN, or Indianpolis,IN. I'm talking about cities like Madison, WI, Rockford, IL, or Des Moines, IA.

      Most of these cities score reasonably high on quality of living surveys and are hardly "white-trash wastelands". Take a week and visit before going off on a stereotype.

      • Most of these cities score reasonably high on quality of living surveys

        Yep -- they're pretty nice places to live. (Chicago is also a very livable city)...but have you ever tried living in a Madison, WI winter? Think about how it'll fly for a Californian. Far, far too cold.

        --Turkey
      • As someone who has gone into debt just trying to get out of a moderately sized city in the midwest (Kansas City), I would rather take a bullet to the forehead than live in Des Moines.

        Rich

    • Didn't Columbus, Ohio [bet.com] just top BET's list of best cities for African Americans? Several other midwestern cities [bet.com] made it in the top 20 as well.

  • Are you sure about massive pay cuts? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by nelsonal ( 549144 ) on Tuesday December 17, 2002 @01:52AM (#4905263) Journal
    While were doubtless not the only govenrment hiring, I know Montana's state government [state.mt.us] is hiring and would love to get smart experienced techs [state.mt.us]. We're about as different as you can get from California (you will have to enter state of montana in the job type field, I can't seem to find a way to get the URL to recognise any search terms). Understand that your pay will stink, but you can pick up a nice house for 150,000 or so, your commute will be 20 min tops, and I live both down town and a five minute walk from a place that you can see one house far on the horizon. If you do decide to move here, either don't admit you are from California, don't comment on the deal you are getting for your house, and don't tell anyone I told you to come up here. If you wanted more money try Boise, ID or one of the university towns in the west. If the example job is well below your skill level, as it sorta looks, I am sorry, no insults were intended, and a single guy will live like a king here on that salary range.

  • Michigan Job! (Score:3, Funny)

    by pheonix ( 14223 ) <slashdot@i b l o v iate.org> on Tuesday December 17, 2002 @02:27AM (#4905427) Homepage
    If you are considering a move to the greater Detroit area in Michigan... I hear my job is opening up soon.

  • Check this out... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by xagon7 ( 530399 )
    www.computerjobs.com

    Good place to start looking, seems Texas has a shit load of opportunity ;)
  • My friend is a 'software guy' and confusing Chicago with "the midwest" is a joke. There are people from the suburbs that say they're from Chicago, and, truth be told, a lot of the Corp. HQs in Illinois are in the burbs of Chicago (Shaumburg, mostly) but we're definitely in a big "fish sucking up all the little jobs just to stay alive phase" here. You've got massive firms [sei-it.com] here as well as some more specialized and user centered design firms [ideo.com].

    Chicago is more expensive than, say, Pittsburgh, and yeah it's a bit cutthroat right now where corps are hiring straight out of school robots at low wages who are no threat to their job security but the difference between some of the big firms here and elsewhere is *gasp* they'd encourage a digital resume being sent in, will fly you out and meet with you, and etc.

    • I think "Your Mileage May Vary" applies, and with that said here's my two cents. Opinions will obviously vary-- this is just mine.

      Chicago is also one of the most unfriendly, anti-intellectual, angry, boorish places on the planet. I was plenty happy to leave my hometown (Chicago) and not look back six and a half years ago... and when I finally got around to visiting in July to pick up some good food (one of the place's few redeeming qualities) the people were as obnoxious and brusque as they ever had been.

      One improvement since I cleared out in '96 though: the term "web site" now can actually be uttered in casual conversation, say in a bar, without somebody walking up to you and telling you "I don't come here to talk about work so stop (expletive) talking about computers."

      You may find a job there, but don't expect your profession or your abilities to be even moderately respected, with the possible exception of working inside an IT-centric firm. This is the same city whose mayor, back in 1997 or 1998, said that they were going to prove that Chi could be a hi-tech center on par with Silicon Valley... by putting up an office building prewired for Internet access. Big brouhaha. Wow.

      Good luck. And stay away from Portland, OR. Great place but the job market is torched beyond recognition, which renders its niceness A-1 moot.

      • Woah!

        What neighborhood did you live in? The 'scenes' I frequent I'd deem overly intellectual (delving into the realm of pseudo-intellectual all too readily)... the opposite of angry: everyone has been everyone's best friend for the longest time... and uh, well, yeah, it is kinda boorish.

        I find Chicago to be tame, passive versus any other metropolises I've been to. Perhaps that's why certain people might seem extra obnoxious when contrasted by the 'distance'...

        Yeh, tho, I've had friends in full agreement of you. But if you back out and say you lived in a suburb (or the south or west sides) then tut tut on you, that's not 22nd Century Chicago.

        Anyway, the 'putting up an office building prewired for Internet Access' is, uh, a bit off - The company was Divine Interventures (RIP) and they were offered the internet-building at, like, a fraction of what a riverfront, totally hooked up building ought to cost. The plan essentially turned into the 'Schaumberg Boom' which pretty much nixed the property taxes and other city controlled sorta monies... check the radar and you'll find a spike in the amount of HQs sprouting up in the Chicagoland area.

        The Silicon Prairie is what it is - cheaper than the 'coasts', our No Coast boasts pseudo-urban styles, a little bit of everything.

        PS . . . I'm not a tech person and I want to get out, it's not the most social of cities that's for sure.
        • Howdy frotty!

          Let me first say that you absolutely have a brain, unlike a whole lot of the Chicagoans I left behind. :)

          I'm a native south-sider and spent a good deal of time living in the Lakeview area (about 4 miles north of downtown) in my adulthood. "Ah ain't one o' dem suburban-people!" :) I also spent a fair amount of time *outside* Chicago on the East Coast, and I currently live on the West Coast. I've got a taste for some different professional and intellectual climates.

          I don't count the south/west sides-- different dynamic altogether, as you alluded to-- my comments were actually based on my experiences as a member of the labor pool, as a Northsider, and (six years later) as a visitor. Blue collar town stuck with white collar jobs, still acting like a bunch of (sterotypical) steel and millworkers in terms of how they treat those around them. Pretty sad to see, actually, very sad. :(

          Up on the North side, I found thinking to be more... advanced (cough) but there was still a distinct marriage to the status quo that puts a whammy on any real intellectual movement. When I finally started asking around, before leaving, people in a *number* of professions all told me the same thing: East Coast, smart but a bit uptight and conservative. West Coast, smart and laid back. Midwest, freaked out by anything new and by the time they finally accepted something "new" it was passe in the rest of the US. Chi was no exception.

          IT is about innovation. Chicago is about things that are already there, and they hate innovation [direct.ca] (enjoy the link). So I left.

          And strangely enough, I found plenty of (Chicago-food-missing) ex-Chicagoans saying the same thing. I'm clearly not alone in my observations.

          The item I mentioned about the prewired building was actually from some rather ridiculous speech that Daley gave... it's so far back that I haven't been able to Google it, but at the time it was so obnoxious that I showed it to quite a few of my hi-tech associates out here (Portland OR). They all just shook their heads in shame. I figured I had to let some other people read it to be sure I wasn't losing my mind and mistranslating...!

          I'll concede that there are areas where the people are nastier than in Chicago. But note that I never said Chicago was *the* nastiest, just that it's one of the top nasties (heh). It definitely has some good company, and some places just might devour Chitown outright.

          Anyway, I'm glad to hear that there's more going in IT space there than before... maybe they can civilize the place. :)

  • I left California... (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    ..three times: Nevada, Amsterdam and NYC. I've also lived in Boston and SF, among other places.

    Not that I pretend that Nevada is the place for anyone (for goodness' sakes, I live 52 miles from the nearest town, and it has one shitty bookstore). On the other hand, I just bought a house (with 3 buildings) on an acre for $40K. I do what I want, I run an online business. I signed up to teach classes at the local college and I just picked up a non-profit web programming job that they'll let me do from home -- they're paying me the full salary they allocated for the position and I only have to work 20 hours a week. I used to make > $200K/year, and I couldn't imagine feeling secure enough to have a child. Now I can't wait for the benefits to kick in again so we can crank out a kid.

    The one thing I did differently this time was I picked the place and then looked for my setup. I've moved to many cities for jobs -- this time I picked the place I wanted to live in and figured if I committed myself to a place for a while, things might start happening differently for me. People in a small town get excited when someone with skills (of any kind) show up, and I've met some people with whom I honestly think I'll end up starting other businesses/efforts with.

    I don't really measure my happiness in $$ anymore -- hell, tonight I felt guilty blowing $20 on dinner.

    On the other hand -- I have a high profile job interview back in SoCal in January. Not sure I'll go, but I don't imagine that I'd really take it. I might even just give the plane ticket back.

    Now, if only my garden would blook and solar panels would magically show up on my roof, I could wear an "off the grid" t-shirt.... :-)

    Oh, and to contribute something that's a little more on topic: I vet the Utah suggestion; strangely enough, a friend from NYC/SoCal is really happy in Kansas City. I've always wanted to move to Portland (my best friend lives there) but I think the weather would depress me. That's the one thing leaving either LA or SF: the weather there is so much nicer than anywhere else. It's hard to compete in that regard.

    Good luck, anyway.
    • Don't move to Portland. Oregon is full. Unemployment is sky-high and for Californians, if the weather doesn't get you, the locals attitude towards you will. That being said, if you do move to Oregon, keep to yourself, claim you're from Arizona and never carry an umbrella (doing so marks you an outsider and people get pissed about the eye-level hazard. Get real raingear like a trenchcoat or poncho instead).
  • "I'm a very experienced software engineer (7+ years) with a MSEE and lots of great work experience."

    You messed up. If you had gotten an MCSE you'd be set.

    - DasBub >:-)
  • Shitty. Do not come to Colorado, there are almost literally NO jobs here. For a 17 year old who's best area is getting in trouble with bosses, anyway.

    Aside from that, check hospitals. They LOVE software engineers. I believe many of the ones that would be interested, however, are in your area. Go figure.

    Another good bet would be colleges and other schools, all the vocational schools pay very well to be able to say that their students are "working with the professionals". A friend of mine is making about 400k a year working at DeVry, all he teaches is Software Management (Whatever that is, I mean c'mon, "Software Management?").
  • ...jobs get YOU.
  • What are you looking for in the midwest? Large cheap houses? Check out Omaha, Kearney, Grand Island in nebraska (I know Cabellas is always hiring tech people, but they are truly in the middle of nowhere). Topeka, Wichita, Lawrence are very good in Kansas. For larger cities where you have luxuries check out Kansas City (Overland Park), Oklahoma City, Chicago.

    Avoid Denver, the houses are overpriced, and the market is very tight even for people with experience and education.

    The midwest doesn't offer as many tech/geek opportunities, but they do offer very cheap land and houses.

  • Dont come to Toronto (Score:2, Interesting)

    by mnmn ( 145599 )
    The fact that you CAN find a six figure job there is a hint you should stay.

    I'm not in your shoes but: 5 years exp, no college degree but MCSE, LCA, CCNA, LPI and now RHCE, and the market in Toronto sucks. I am working in a small company helping with the database, and the IT guys are practically fighting over the position. My 6-month long search in various sectors has received abysmal replies. (maybe its just the lack of degree)

    I'm looking for an excuse to move to California.
    • I saw a chart in a magazine recently that showed that people without degrees are 4 times as likely to be unemployed than those with Master's degrees. I think it was something like 1.6% for having an MS, and like 6.something percent for those with only a highschool diploma.

      So yes, the lack of a degree is a big part of your problem.

      I have an MS and I'd like to live in Toronto. Maybe I can get your job?

  • I recently moved from San Francisco to Atlanta. Atlanta is one of the few places in the country that actually has a growing technology sector. Further, the cost of living is very low. I can't give you a difference in salary for myself as I run my own company and thus didn't change my salary. However, my fiancée had an entry-level data mining job in San Francisco for 45k and now has a similar job in Atlanta for 43k. While that is a 2k pay cut for her, it feels more like a 40k pay raise.

    • Nooooo. Don't do it!

      Two years here and my wife and I are heading back to Los Angeles. Here, if you lose your job, you can spend six months finding another one. In LA the headhunters are still cold-calling.

      Add in the fact that Atlanta is still living in the 1980s and there are almost no good sushi joints...

      • "Add in the fact that Atlanta is still living in the 1980s and there are almost no good sushi joints..."

        Atlanta--
        Don't just watch That 80's Show, live it!

        Sushi?
        What you don't like catfish?

  • i switched! (Score:2, Interesting)

    by panker ( 461977 )
    Last year I saw my company flailing, and I decided to bail. I left Santa Cruz, CA with no job, a dog, and my girlfriend. We moved to Pennsylvania, but I could not find a job due to 911. Fortunately I was able to land a job near Baltimore, and now we are looking at buying a row home in the city. I lost 40 pounds and never felt better, so my suggestion is to just pick up and leave, it worked out for me. One thing that I did was take a pay cut, but I am finding out that I didn't have to do that, or at least not as much. I have a BSEE with 5 years exp and that is worth money anywhere.

  • consider Northern Virginia (Score:4, Informative)

    by peteshaw ( 99766 ) <slashdot@peteshaw.fastmail.fm> on Tuesday December 17, 2002 @10:27AM (#4906808) Homepage
    the Northern Virginia/DC area, is pretty cool. While not, say, California cool, it has:

    3% unemployment.

    While telecom has been nuked, the government sector is growing and defense contractors are hiring. (Can you say homeland security?)

    You are halfway between the chesapeake bay and the Shenandoah mountains, so most people can find something (sailing, hiking, lazing at the beach, hanging out downtown) to do.

    And, when bored, you can always go to the whitehouse and watch people protesting all manners of things.

    I don't know, its okay down here. Housing is expensive by most standards, but still maybe half of NoCal standards.

    good luck to you--peace and joy

    --Pete

  • That other coast (Score:3, Interesting)

    by fizbin ( 2046 ) <martinNO@SPAMsnowplow.org> on Tuesday December 17, 2002 @10:30AM (#4906820) Homepage
    Well have you considered New Jersey?

    Don't believe the common image of the state as a toxic hellhole - that's just the view from NYC (from NYC, you look out onto Newark and Jersey City, so I can understand the confusion). Most of the state is gorgeous, and the real estate prices, while not nearly the deal that they are in some parts of the midwest, are sane.

    There's plenty of work as you get closer to New York, especially if you're at all inclined to work in financial or biotech places. (The New Brunswick-Princeton corridor is good too)

    As you get closer to Philadelphia, the places that are hiring techs tend more towards regional offices of large corporations. (It's also my impression that there's a good deal of embedded stuff that people aren't allowed to talk about going on in Burlington and Atlantic counties) If you don't mind suburbia, I keep hearing that the Rt. 202 corridor NW from Philadelphia is a reasonably warm tech spot. (And I suppose I should point you at the local job website that found me my job [jobcircle.com])

    If you head further south, into Delaware, you get companies that are all feeding off of subsidiary businesses surrounding the great DuPont, (or weasel businesses playing shell games with Delaware's loose corporate laws) and sales-tax-free shopping too.

    I understand that there's tech. stuff both further north and further south, but what I've heard about both the NC (Research Triangle) and Boston area job markets is not encouraging.
    • Just to butress the above poster...the big hair went out in the 1980s and with the exception of the far northeastern corner next to NYC, no one has a squawky accent. Most of state's land is farms and forests.

  • Why don't you try Europe? Italy, Spain, France are beautiful, and I bet you could find something to satisfy you.

  • I did what you're trying to do (Score:3, Informative)

    by gregwbrooks ( 512319 ) <gregb AT west-third DOT net> on Tuesday December 17, 2002 @10:45AM (#4906914)
    Born and raised in CA, and managed to finally end up in the midwest (first Chicago, then Kansas City). Sold my rat-trap of a house for $145k (paid $180k, dammit -- AND it's now worth $310k!) in 1996, moved to Chicago, and never regretted it for an instant. By way of housing-price contrasts, I now live in a restored, painted-lady Victorian that I paid $144k for; if I wanted a similarly old/large/cool house in downtown Kansas City, I could have gotten it for about $250k -- both prices are (ahem) quite a bit less than the going CA rates.

    A few pointers:

    • Set your sights on the bigger metro areas. Sure, everyone wants to telecommute, but management's not going to put up with it for the most part. The big difference is that there is oh-so-cheap housing within driving/train distance in most of the Midwestern markets. On the other hand, if you go to a smaller, more-rural market, you're basically screwed when your job dries up. I'd stick to Chicago, Kansas City, Milwaukee and (maybe) Indianapolis if your heart is set on the midwest.
    • Going to Chicago? Live just over the state line in Indiana. Better tax situation, commuting options via car or train, and the housing is MUCH cheaper.
    • Check out the business journals. Most major cities (and certainly the ones I mentioned) have weekly business journals. Most of these, in turn, do an annual "book of lists" that ticks off contact info for things like "largest employers," "largest software developers," largest web design firms," etc. Very helpful.
    • Check in with the local user groups. Depending on what your field is, you can get a lot of info via e-mail by chatting up with local user groups.
  • Places of interest:
    • Washington DC Metro Area - Where I am. Lots of tech jobs, although some businesses are on the way out there is still low unemployment. We get a lot of government work out here. ^_^ w00t! Home of UUNET. Warning, half the jobs you want require a clearence, hope you kept your nose clean!!! Also the traffic is nearly as bad as Cali.
    • Central Jersey (Princeton, Somerset, Middlesex Counties) - A recently developed suburban area between Philly and NYC. There are a lot of pharmaceutical outfits there, newspapers, etc. There are a good number of tech jobs to be had. Housing prices are decent.
    • Atlanta - Don't know much about it except its cheaper there, and there's a number of technical jobs available.
    • Boston - Same thing goes as for Atlanta. More specifically, look into the area near Williamstown and North Adams. I understand is like a little Silicon Valley.
  • Just ask Snake Plissken [imdb.com].
  • If you are self motivated might I suggest you begin your own company. Base the company around internet communications as the primary means of finding / working with clients.

    Once you do this, and build the base and generate income than start to look at where you would most like to live, regardless of where it is (assuming it has the minimum telecommunications requirements you want).

    If you want to live in a paradise, follow your heart. If the big city is what you want... go for it. The bottom line is become self motivated and innovate. Develop serious goals and follow through until you achieve them.

    Becomming dependent on yourself gives you the ability to be independent and free to follow your dreams.

    Aloha Nui Loa

  • You really have to know someone to get into a job these days, so I'd suggest searching your midwest contacts.

    Beyond that, Columbus, Ohio is a great place to work/live. Ohio State University is a great place to work, and they are always hiring. Besides that Naitionwide Insurance, Bank One, Verizon, and AEP are good places to start in Columbus. In Cincinnati, there are a couple of book places. GE is big in Cleveland. Better yet, find someone in CA that will let you telecommute. Nothing like a CA income and an Ohio cost of living.
  • Yeah, I live in ca too.

    Well I have been to Kansas, which is in the midwest. You can get a really big house for 150-250k. Problem is you'll be lucky to make 30k, unless you work for a company in another state and telecommute.

    I have lived in DC and Virginia. Your salary there would be better. Probably 60-90k depending on your skill level. Problem is that housing is more expensive than Kansas, and the commute is as bad as here.

    I have lived in Florida, Boston, Lousiana, and several other places. There is always a tradoff no matter where you live. Truth is that the salary that you are making now, probably wont be what you would make somewhere else. It would probably be lower. So well housing would be lower, so would your salary and it all kinda balances it self out.

    So what do you prefer? Earthquakes, stay in CA (Oh and they have earthquakes in Kentucky too, as well as NY, just not as often. [we are all waiting for the 'big one']). Floods, live near the Mississippi, or Texas, AZ, New Mexico, etc. Tornados, try the midwest like Kansas, Oaklahoma, 'tornado alley'. Snow? Then anywhere in the north.

    After living in several different climates and visiting several different US climates, I find that I am happy'er here in CA. We have better restaurants IMHO then elsewhere and I like the climate. Yeah we have earthquakes, but look at the USGS and you'll find so do other parts of the country. When I was in New Hampshire, we had 2 small ones that shook the bed.

  • www.careerlink.org [careerlink.org]
    Thousands of jobs in Eastern Nebraska, Western Iowa.
    Move here, we'd love to have you.

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