josquint asks:
"Does the Computer Service/Repair field need to be regulated? This is a question I asked myself after spending a day off from my position as Lead Technician at a local computer shop, in an auto repair shop and a hair salon. In both places, I noted that all the employees had their trade credentials displayed for all customers to see. They are not only displayed as a matter of pride or to gain customer trust (as my A+ and Network Security certificate is) but as a matter of law. This regulation, to me, makes sense. If you're going to pay good money to have your automobile repaired, it better be by someone trained and proficient at doing it (otherwise I might as well do it myself!). Also, there is a matter of safety --an error in repairing a car can easily result in injury or death of quite a few people, so some accountability is needed.
The salon regulation, to me at first, seemed like the usual overkill large government regulation. However, it too is a matter of safety to the clients, as the chemicals and equipment (tanning beds especially) can also do harm if used incorrectly. Would you view regulation or mandatory certification as a good thing in the computer repair/installation/maintenance world? What kind of regulation would you like to see, if any? How and at what level would it be implemented and enforced?"
"I personally would like something that requires certain basic certifications for the techs themselves, and possibly something to do with retail shop areas (use of static mats, data backup procedures, etc). And enforced at the State level similar to most small business type codes.
I wouldn't have a problem following some such type of regulation, and probably wouldn't need to do much if anything to make code. I do a fair share of cleaning up after fly-by-night companies/consultants/johnny's-14-year-old nephew-that-really-knows-computers. It costs a lot of the local businesses serious money to replace lost data and sub-standard equipment. I just completed a total system replacement at a clinic that had the system replaced about 2 months ago. It cost them over $10,000 for a system the should have been close to $3,500, but they had to replace the first replacement due to a consultant that had no experience or knowledge in that type of system trying to put one in.
While regulation wouldn't solve everything, I think it might cut down on the riff-raff and wannabes in an industry that many businesses can't do without as they can't do without electricity."
I'd go for less regulation, and not more (Score:3, Interesting)
These sort of regulations are sold to the public as "protection." In fact, they're put in place by politicians in the pockets of established businesses to remove the lower rungs from the ladder of success for others. They make it cost that much more to get in business and compete with them.
Try this some time. You've got a car, and you know how to drive. There are people without cars, who need to get places. Put a sign on your car that says "Taxi," drive around, and offer to take people to where they need to go for a reasonable price. Be safe, courteous, and take good care of your car. See how long it takes before the cops shut you down. There are some cities where the fees to get a taxi cab medallion are in the tens of thousands of dollars. Hairdresses may wind up spending $5000 on completely unnecessary certifications. Protecting the public? A little, maybe...protecting bigger, already established businesses from cheap competition? Oh, yeah...
NO! It's a fancy word for TAX (Score:2, Interesting)
With the way the computer industry operates, this will just become yet ANOTHER tax. You will have to pay every so often for a piece of paper that says you are good-to-go. You are being taxed to work in this industry. Don't fall for it. It's hard enough to have to keep up with new technology, do you want to have to pay even more than you already do to keep up?
Besides, I'm unemployed and broke. I can't afford it right now
Do you really think it would help? (Score:5, Interesting)
Then we have some people with no formal training who know there stuff and work hard and produce great work.
Similarly, we have folks who have "certifications" that are absolutely meaningless.
Same with our hardware people -- our 17-year-old interns know more about this stuff than the MCSEs.
All this does is make it harder for an independent artisan to make a living -- I don't want Intel's stamp of approval. The only approval I need is a legion of satisfied customers who tell their friends and colleagues and word spreads and reputation builds -- like in the old days before you could "buy" a certification.
While you're studying for A+ or MCSE, there's some 14-year-old with a soldering iron, learning the hard way how to fix a faulty IDE control, and a 12-year-old decompiling the NT kernel to figure out why his graphics card causes a BSoD. And in ten or fifteen years old, your certification will be obsolete, and if you're lucky, you'll be working for the now-29-year-old VP of engineering.
Re:Not the same thing... (Score:4, Interesting)
Computer repair is pretty trivial, by comparison.
What you've got in those cases might be protections in the form of implied warranties of merchantability
Also, whenever I sign a freelance contract, there's often a clause in there that says something along the lines of, "the vendor (me) warrants that his services are competent" -- in other words, if I screw up completely and they can satisfy a court that I didn't really know what I was talking about from the get-go, then they don't have to pay me at all. In fact, I may owe them for what I screw up. Rather than looking for the government to pass more laws regulating independent businesses, you might want to look for more along these lines when you sign an agreement with a repair guy.
Word of Mouth (Score:4, Interesting)
I have more work than I can handle, and our company is growing carefully. I am ultimately responsible for any work performed on a computer, whether it is done by my boss, or my co-workers, because I take pride in what I do.
Regulation wouldn't help in this regard, but it *might* remove some of the shady/incompetent places, for example Gateway stores.
Not ten minutes ago a new customer came in crying that Gateway had formatted her hard drive to remove a virus. Data backup? What's that? Gateway didn't bother to tell her they were going to do this, they just did it.
As I said, regulation *might* remove these guys from the business, but I think word of mouth will do it faster.
Re:Regulation makes it MORE difficult... (Score:1, Interesting)
Using the right analogy (Score:3, Interesting)
Not unless your whole house is computerized. I can see at the very least licensing for folks that handle whole house installations--admittedly a bit down the line--where you could do real damage if you screwed things up. (Reminds me of the Asimov story where the house decided one day that the occupants were superfluous.) There's a real divide here between computers as just another appliance, like washing machines (do washing machine repairmen need licenses? I don't think so, but correct if I'm wrong, and they could flood your basement at the very least), and computers as integral parts of larger systems.
Personally, I tend to roll my own, but I can sympathize with the average guy or gal who wouldn't know RAM from a ramjet. But then, who knows how a maching machine works well enough to fix it, either?
Re:WELL, (Score:2, Interesting)
The market is what regulates customer service as it should be. One company's business model may be selling a superior product with excelent service at a primium price, another retailer should be able to go the other way. It's up to the consumer to decide which best suits them. Instead of talking about more regulation, we should talk about more consumer education. Consumers need to know where they can go to get information on a company's quality of service and let them make their mind up for themselves. I don't want to pay for Fry's to hire expeirenced people to help me find the hardware I need- I know what hardware I need.
Re:definitely (Score:1, Interesting)
Oh really? So if the database for the payroll department gets trashed, thats low stakes, huh? I think this discussion was pointed toward IT professionals, which you are obviously not.
As for the subject at hand, I whole heartedly agree that there should be some sort of professional accountability. I currently and in the past have unfortunately worked with too many IT charlatans.
Your example of $10k for a $3.5k job sounds all too familiar; I do consulting for the government, and aside from the fact that incompitants become managers, and too many of the ordinary workers are only experts at dodging work and responsibility, they still have the normal problem of nontechnical managers making the technical decisions.
I previously made the suggestion that anyone working in our IT department should be certified, either before being hired or after the fact for existing employees, but dont think it will be considered, at least until somebody makes a high-profile screw-up. So much for being proactive...
Re:definitely (Score:2, Interesting)
Last question first... (Score:5, Interesting)
Constitutionally, the Federal Government has the authority to regulate interstate commerce, and other transactions are left to state and local governments, and to individual citizens. That's the model followed in regulating most industries: Licensing of Professional Engineers is done by each state, and it just happens for convenience that all states have chosen to recognize the standards set forth by the non-governmental American Board of Engineering and Technology. Licensing of local businesses is generally done by county or city agencies.
2) What kind of regulation would you like to see, if any?
As inclined towards libertarianism as I am, I'd tend to say as little as possible. It's a 'buyer beware' world, and if someone other than me is working on my home computer, I'm going to make sure they have a good reputation, even if they are still working their way through college, as my roommate is.
Now, if the people in your community overwhelmingly want some sort of government-imposed consumer protection in this regard, that's up to you. Get your city council or county commissioners to deal with it. But I don't want it imposed on me.
3) Would you view regulation or mandatory certification as a good thing in the computer repair/installation/maintenance world?
Not if it prevents people from entering freely into business deals of their own choosing. As I mentioned above, my roommate uses his computer-building and computer-fixing skills to help pay for college, but it's not something he plans on doing for his life once he graduates. He's damned good at building and fixing computers, and he could pass any certification test you could throw at him, and there are plenty of people who would be willing to vouch for him on personal experience with his work. But would it be worth the money a government or private accrediting agency would undoubtedly charge if it's not something he plans to use for more than a few years? Not likely.
Re:definitely (Score:1, Interesting)
Responsibility translates to Better Choices (Score:5, Interesting)
And if you think back, to when you actually had to PAY ATTENTION to who was fixing your car, because Uncle Sam was not involved in the decision, you probably got much better service for your dollar, and knew a lot more about the work.
For years I took my car to a shop far from home, because they did good work, knew me personally, even occasionally let me use their tools to do a job myself, etc. I selected them based on reputation, and service, and their record with me personally. Not some license on the wall. And just as importantly, when they started screwing up my car every time it went there, I stopped going. Despite the license on the wall.
We Americans are a lazy bunch. Hey, the gu'mmint says they're licensed, must be okay. Here, Joe, fix my car. I trust you because Uncle Sam does too.
Back in 'the day' when the consumer had to actually pay attention, I'll wager the service was a lot better. Sure there were ripoff artists, and bad stuff happened, but those shops didn't stay around for long.
Just so, today, I'd bet that the overall service is better on computers, BECAUSE there is no regulation.
actually (Score:2, Interesting)
Imagine if the rest of the world functioned like the software field.... Oh gee, I built a tree house when I was a kid, so I'm qualified to build the replacement for the collapsed World Trade Center....
Uhm, NO!
Anyways, enough of my rants...
PS: I'm not classifying people, as I know not every "kid" falls into this category. Maybe I'm just pissed at some of the contractors we hired a while back
No (Score:5, Interesting)
Why don't we craft a new Cert Exam? (Score:3, Interesting)
Ok, I'm crazy, nevermind...
Um... lemmie think... uh, NO! (Score:2, Interesting)
Professionals, such as lawyers, doctors, plumbers, electricians, auto mechanics, barbers, etc. are required to be licensed, and in most cases, this is a good thing. They work in fields where mistakes can lead to wrongful convictions, serious injury, death, major property damage, and the like.
OTOH, there are many fields where it is legal to do certain things, particular maintenence, with no license at all. I don't have to have a license to repair your deck or fix your toilet; granted, if I screw it up and your deck isn't up to code or your toilet floods your living room, you don't have many means of redress, other than suing me personally.
The problem is that the work done in these fields is not necessarily analagous to the work done by PC repair techs. Frankly, fixing a broken system is usually not rocket science; doing so with the minimal amount of work and data loss is something of an art, but most tech support guys fall back to the usual, reformat, reboot, and reinstall method if all else fails.
I don't think the government should be telling me whom I can and cannot pay to fix my computer (in my case, I fix the bloody thing myself), or my car for that matter. If I want to take it to my sister-in-law's best friend's teenage son and give him $20 to get XP working, that's my business. And if I want to get the thing fixed by someone who actually knows what the hell he's doing, and, perhaps, has all the mumble-mumble certifications to prove it, that's also my option.
Other than freedom of choice (in who fixes my PC), the other effect of regulation would be to price or lock out uncertified individuals, such as myself, from the market. Granted, I like my job as a software engineer. But if the economy continues down the crapper and I lose my job, it wouldn't be below my dignity to make some extra bread fixing computers. My 15 years+ of PC hardware and software knowledge certainly is worth something to someone. I shouldn't have to go blow several thousand dollars getting A+ and Microsloth Certified Ignoramious certificates to get a job.
I've worked with many engineers who had all those fancy certifications and many who did not. From what I can tell, they don't make a lick of difference. The only thing that really counts is knowledge (however it's acquired) and experience (and a healthy dose of intuition and luck). The worst thing is someone who can talk the talk and has the cert's but is fundamentally incompetent. Frankly, if I'm interviewing two guys, and one has an MSCE and the other claims several years of administering a Windows NT/2000 network, I'll probably consider them equally and ask them the same questions. I actually have more respect for the guy who's been debugging problems for the last couple years than someone who just passed some exam.
Finally, perhaps as a coup-de-gras of sorts, consider all those Cisco Certifications. As much as Cisco hypes them, you'd think that lots of Cisco employees would have them. Well, I used to work there, and guess what? They don't. Generally, the engineers there are quite unimpressed by anything other than a CCIE (of which there are only a couple thousand in the whole world). It's not about how many tests you can pass, it's about what you've actually done and what you can do.
The cert classes are a nice way to fill in some gaps in your existing knowledge or to get a jumpstart on a new technology, but, by and large, they don't mean dick.
Re:Not the same thing... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:certification? (Score:5, Interesting)
What reputation? A certificate is simply a piece of paper stating that someone attended or completed some half-assed course he took at who-knows what establishment that makes money giving out these pieces of paper.
I don't think legally requiring some certification to repair Joe Sixpack's PC is (a) feasible, or (b) will improve anything, including responsibility. If anything, it will make simple PC repairs more expensive, and they'll make you sign off your firstborn when you take in the PC for a repair. For businesses, it makes sense to have service agreements with companies that are, e.g., Sun certified, or HP certified, etc. Private sector handles it fine. However, for mass market there are no benefits, and most of all, no incentive.
Comparing this to plumbing (like many posts do) is a disaster. Obviously, it's not well thought through. Realize that in any kind of construction, real estate job, there are many more interests involved. These are - land owners, banks and credit institutions, architects, one or more construction companies, property management companies, the city, lessors, lessees... all this is big business and a lot of liability. Legally required certification in these cases provide for defined responsibilities, reduce risk (or at least expose risk), lower deviation in prices, and create a plain field for somewhat competitive market, among other things. In a simple scenario, if a plumber screws up and ends up damaging your property, not only have you suffered, but potentially your neighbors, your property management company, the city, and the bank who gave you the mortgage. If banks cannot rely on, or know the risk and liability of property repairs (e.g. electrician burns down the whole house), they would have to incorporate that risk in their services.
No such interests exist when repairing Joe Sixpack's PC. Usually what you are dealing with is a $600 (or less) computer and a more or less simple problem. The data on the computer consists of few mp3s, couple of documents, some e-mails, and a lot of porn. In other words, nothing remotely close to a multi-billion dollar business. Therefore, no support for legislation.
certification boards and unions (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:definitely (Score:1, Interesting)
Young workers aren't always a bad thing (Score:1, Interesting)
Not to mention - do we REALLY need the government involved in something else?
Laugh and Cry (Score:1, Interesting)
1. Unlike virtually all other kinds of "repair" work, computers change so bloody fast that all certification is meaningless and useless to the joe-average computer user. Just look at all the MS certifications there are, can you pull random annie off the street and get her to find the difference between MCP or MCSE?
2. There are two elements to computer service, software and hardware. Certain specific software has certification from the manufacturer of the software (agan MS.) However from a hardware point of view, if can put lego together, you can put PC's together. Just finding out what certain parts are (by identifying the connectors, or in some cases the chips or ID numbers on them) is about the only real talent you need to "service" the hardware.
There is no certification for overclocking, fine-tuning games, fine-tuning the OS, creating dual-boot OS machines, etc. These are all the work of computer geeks with experience, If they can do this and not destroy everything the computer user has, they are qualified to fix a computer.
What I would like to see is more of an Official database of certified/licensed technicians so your joe-average user can learn when their favorite technican earned their papers, and if they have been keeping updated. Someone who got an A+ Cert (which is of laughable value) in 199x who hasn't been keeping their skills up probably couldn't identify serial ATA or an AGP 8X slot, probably couldn't tell you the capacity of a DVD-R/DVD-RW disc, and wouldn't know what DDR RAM is.
I fix my own stuff, but I know plenty of people who have gone to their local computer store, or even the place they bought their name-brand computer from (Futureshop for example) and the store sends the unit away for a month instead of fixing it on site, costing the user a lot of time.
VERY IMPORTANT:
Backup your valuable data, even the best technican isn't above forces of nature and stupidity,they may accidently get caught in an accident (say he/she was taking your computer in their car to the shop, and they got struck by tree falling.)
There were times where I've lost my own data, other peoples data, I had the "oh shit" feeling, but there was nothing I could do. Sometimes drives fail before they can be backed up.
PRIVACY:
Those certifications don't meen voyeur technicians won't go through your resumes and ICQ logs.
There was this one family teen girls went and deleted all their ICQ logs, downloads and stuff before having the computer serviced... but didn't empty the recycle bin. Now had the mother who brought it, mentioned that her girls had deleted things. So this interpretated to us that the girls had been probably been doing something they shouldn't be. Nobody really cared enough to go undeleting files or poking through the recycle bin. The closest anyone came to privacy invasion was during the back-up phase when we could see strange filenames run by that were located in the recycle bin "Copying from Recycled:
Under normal circumstances, the computer technicans have no time to waste poking around on your computer for juicy private things. (I will note that if you live in a small town and you have any level of notoriety, you may be taking a risk.) However if the computer takes a dive, and you bring it in, and the first thing they see is child porn on the desktop when they get it up, they may very well call the police before calling you back.
Opposed to it (Score:2, Interesting)
Big isn't necessarily better.
(PS. I'm not of legal voting age in the US. Just to put things in perspective)
Double Edged Sword? (Score:4, Interesting)
I do All my own maintenance and repairs on my 18 year old Audi, and on my GF's 19 year old Audi. I would definitely NOT trust Joe mechanic at the corner gas station or auto shop to fix it. If there is a task that needs completing, and I find that it's too cold outside, or I don't have time - I take it exclusively to my local independant VW/Audi Mechanic. The guy has no education or certifications to speak of, but he's been working on these cars for 25+ years out of passion for these brands. He knows more about them than any "certified" mechanic I've ever meet or heard of. Point being that a certification is not needed to produce a competant technical worker.
On the other hand, I used to work with a guy who has an MCSE (no I'm not bashing all MCSE's here) who didn't know a screw driver from a bus driver. I mean, this guy couldn't even create a simple DOS batch file, was unable to successfully implement a 2-node microsoft cluster in 2 months time, and was clueless about settings in IIS. I also knew a fellow that was an aspiring auto mechanic. Despite having 8 different industry certifications, he was an awful mechanic - and he admitted it. Point here is that a certification definitely does not equal competancy.
I think however that industry regulations would definitely weed out some of the wannabe's, though if it is an expensive or lengthy ordeal, it may deter potential talent.
Just my 2 cents.
A new certification model? (Score:2, Interesting)
Many of my older friends have repaired computers for a living for many years. Being very knowledgable and expirienced, these individuals can repair just about anything a computer user can break. This expirience can not be found in certifications as they are today. If certification is forced, then expirienced technicians will loose money until they can get their certifications and money-seekers will gain the certifications without nearly the ability, knowledge, or expirience of their counterparts and will take valuable customers away, who believe they are a better choice because of the certification and new face.
What I would propose is a certification model based on the current "trust certification" we see commonly. How many technicians advertise purely on word-of-mouth? I know many who get all their bussiness through customers talking to fellow users about who to take the system to in an emergency. This trust is based on completed, successful repairs and the years they have worked on computers. Additionally, are we forgetting what has long been the number one sign of a 'computer expert'; a love of computers, which cannot be put into paper and thus which would be destroyed by regulation.
Certifications should exist, but should not be mandatory. The agency which would give out these certifications, which would not be private corporations as many current certifications, would re-issue certifications every two or three months. The primary reason for this is the "customer satisfaction rating" which consists of customer's filling out special forms which the technician sends in. On top of the normal certification levels that would be given, their expirience could at least somewhat be rated on paper, giving a much better representation of ability than most current certifications which make all who hold the same certification equal, even tho many of them were enthusiastic computer lovers for many years and others never touched a computer before entering their training course a few months before.