How Close is the Open Entertainment Center? 332
why-not-now asks: "Recently there's been a lot of talk about open source/free software that enables your PC to act as a DVR, all-purpose media player, DVD player, CD player, MP3 player, etc... not to mention the ability to play all sorts of video games (if you know where to look). The idea of the set top MAME console is nice, but with a little TV/Audio out, a little know how and the right software, are we currently able to put together a free version of the big convergence media center others are trying to do?"
Well with the recent SCOTUS decision (Score:3, Interesting)
Very Close (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Very Close (Score:5, Interesting)
Here, lemme hit any potential PVR software author what me, and millions of other people who don't ever want to see a shell prompt on their PVR want.
1. Make an ISO
Nobody wants to download this from here, that from there, tar xfzv make compile and pray you have all the correct dependancies. I just want to download a ISO image, burn it, boot it and it works.
2. Slick interface
Myth's interface is a good start but could be better. I would suggest reading the OSX interface guidlines at apple, there's a ton of usefull info on how to make an intuative gui there.
3. Bells and whistles
Since %99 of the world is windows (myself included) I want to be able to configure a samba share so I can access what I record on another PC. Same goes for netatalk and the apples.
Also add in support for things like alphanumeric LCD's in case someone wants to add a LCD to the front of this thing.
Point i'm trying to make though is the majority of people that want to use this won't have the time or patience to do a bunch of side tasks to complete their main task, which is building a PVR.
Re:Very Close (Score:2, Informative)
2) There are a number of different mythtv themes to choose from and remember its not a finished product...its gonna get better
3) If you can mount it, you can use it
Re:Very Close (Score:2)
Don't even need/want THAT much. (Score:3, Interesting)
It blows my mind that after 2 or more years "debating" hardware specs and distributions, no one has bothered to just make something WORK yet. Why do you need a full distribution? Why do you need fancy hardware?
I'm a firm believer that ALL you need is a suitable Window Manager, a hand-me-down PC, and a $30 TV Out card off price-watch.
Why do you need an ISO? There are already a lot of Linux Distro's that have most of the apps you need, just unselect the stuff you don't need.
The Slick Interface is the trick. I don't even think you need a full blown "Window Manager" because you would want to run EVERYTHING full screen anyhow. All you need is something like Acid Launcher hacked to be used full screen, and return to the launcher when your done with that app.
The ONLY bell/whistle you need at all is complete control of your apps and your launcher by using a USB GamePad (Logitech and MicroSoft sell several for about $20-$40).
If you could grab a gamepad, choose a game or play an MPEG by ICON on your TV screen using the gamepad as a pointer, and when exiting the game/movie you come back to the launcher... What else do you need?
The Launcher HAS to be full screen, and easily hackable (text file that you can enter a number of buttons in, with only command line and path to the icon for each button needed).
Once your that far, I don't think it will be that long before people start hacking apps that work well in full screen mode with gamepad control.
How do you fit a PC on top of your TV? (Score:3, Funny)
Clues? (Score:5, Funny)
That sounds cool. Where [mame.net] might [zsnes.com] I [epsxe.com] find [linuxgames.com] information [transgaming.com]?
Q & A (Score:4, Funny)
Sure we are. Here are the main differences between it and the other product:
Ours will have an incomprehensible command line interface and/or multiple GUIs that responds 10-15 seconds after the user asks it to do something. Neither GUI will be standard - in fact, it will ship with both, and proponents of the two camps will froth at the mouth when discussing how their widgets are prettier than the others.
It will not support any receivers / amps made less than 5 years ago unless the user knows assembly.
When a user asks for support, he will be told "RTFM n00b, j00 M$ shill. Astroturf somewheres else, whilst I read THE SOURCE for my knowledge. This is the Tao of programming, numbnuts, and you thought it was funny to beat me up in high school and take my lunch money. haahahah, I am the BOFH"
This is EXACTLY what the poster ment... (Score:5, Interesting)
Sure, there are a few projects out there that are trying to do this kind of thing. And there are a lot of people who would be interested in this sort of solution, but with responses like:
what you are trying to say is "i want a free PVR-like thingie, can someone make one?"
...these projects will have a difficult time getting off the ground. I don't remember where I read it now, but someone once said...
The biggest problem with Linux is its supporters.
As the stereotype (which has been beautifully microcosmed in this discussion, BTW) is that they are a bunch of socially in adept zealots who have delusions of grandeur. The parent comment put this quite well in a language they would understand (though I'm sure it could have been conveyed in one line of Perl, yes).
So my question is (like) that of the original poster... when will someone with computer knowledge (that is not necessarily a *nix guru, though not a moron either) be able to follow some instructions on a site (buy this encoder board, install that DVD recorder) and setup a Digital Media Player that will cover the popular requests like MAME, DVD Video, MP3 (and OGG, and...), Slideshow (Image Display), etc?
Re:The "other" product... (Score:2)
All sorts of video games (Score:3, Interesting)
Just because you can emulate arcade roms, snes roms and psx discs, doesn't mean it's legal to do so, or that they're somehow 'open'. Spyro the dragon and Mortal Kombat are not Open Source.
And to answer your question, you can do all that now. All you need is a machine with enough power and TV outs, or a VGA scan converter, and a lot of free time to set it all up and make it work adequately.
Or are you asking 'how long until someone sets up an easy to use linux interface for all of these softwares?' You can answer that by looking at how long it took to set up an easy to use linux interface at all.
Re:All sorts of video games (Score:2)
Re:All sorts of video games (Score:2)
The software linked to is open. You can get the source and basically use it as you will. Of course, they're not terribly useful without some content that is typically not open, but so what? The same goes for software allowing you to play CDs, DVDs, or even record television. If you add in software and hardware with the ability to play CDs and DVDs, it doesn't require that the CDs and DVDs be open. The question is "is the convergence system open?" not "is the content used with the system open?"
Re:All sorts of video games (Score:2)
Emulating a system is legal. Playing and possessing ROM versions of the games is also legal, provided you own a copy of that game. Despite what Nintendo says on its site -- that emulating its systems is illegal -- precedent exists in the form of Sony vs. Connectix. That case established that you are free to use another method of accessing the content you paid for. Do Sony and Nintendo like the fact that you can use an emulator and a ROM to play their games? No. But can they do anything about it if you've bought the games legitimately? No.
Sure you can put one together yourself (Score:3, Troll)
Re:Sure you can put one together yourself (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Sure you can put one together yourself (Score:3, Funny)
one question.. why? (Score:5, Offtopic)
About the only thing I can think I might be missing is the opportunity to play hacked/burned/whatever games, but in my experience, they usually look pretty damn lousy on a huge TV anyway.
Like I said.. maybe some people will be into this.. but IMHO I cannot stand to watch things on a computer NOW because they look so crappy, let alone piping that into my TV.
But maybe I'm not the audience they are looking for.
Maeryk
I'm the audience (Score:5, Informative)
The only downside is the monitor isn't as large as I'd like. 21" is pretty much a minimum size. I'm hoping for a huge flat widescreen monitor in the future.
My PC doesn't have an AIW or any other TV capability, because I don't have cable - thanks to the wonders of the internet, and my friends who do have cable, I don't really need it. But DVDs played on my PC look far better than on my friends' TVs. The colors are more vivid and the image is sharper - what's not to like? And 200gigs of instant-access MP3s kicks all kinds of ass over an MP3-enabled CD player. Logitech and Klipsch make speakers that sound terrific to me.
Best of all - if I rent a DVD and don't get time to watch it (happens all the time to me), I can just copy it to my hard drive 'til later.
And everything's available through one interface, in one place, with a wireless mouse or remote. No piles of remotes, no jungles of wires, no components stacked all over the place.
As far as I'm concerned, this is how it should be... bring on more!
We have a winner! (Score:2, Troll)
And he's constantly looking for more.
You're the villan they're looking for. I didn't think anybody like you actually existed.
Troll (Score:3)
The MPAA, RIAA and sometimes even Congress are damage, and geeks will route around them.
As long as the MPAA, RIAA and the few cable/satellite companies have monopolies on media delivery, and continue to cling to outdated business models, resist new technologies, squash fair use, and attempt to implement nonsensical and tyrannical schemes of all kinds, they are the villain. Far as I'm concerned, anyone who disagrees is a retard, a shill, or just plain old-fashioned contrary (and good for you if you are that curmudgeon - it's cute).
These corporations could choose to sell me the services and products I want, and I'd be glad to pay for them. But they won't. They are irrelevant, and the world will move on in spite of them.
Re:We have a winner! (Score:2)
I'm not so sure - he/she only admits to having a fairly large quantity of mp3s. Those *could* be perfectly legal fair-use rips made from bought CDs. In fact, we should presume them to be innocent, legal copies, until stated otherwise.
As for the rental bit...that one's a little hairy. The "Innocent until proven guilty" stand on this would be that the copy is watched once, then deleted. While still technically illegal, the net outcome is the same as if the copy hadn't been made - and could fall under the umbrella of "timeshifting", which is legal (for now...) As long as the copy is destroyed after viewing, and not distributed, that seems a valid argument. The original poster doesn't say anything regarding what happens to the copy after viewing, so I guess we'll never know =)
Re:We have a winner! (Score:3, Insightful)
Certain artists, I'll always buy their CDs/DVDs, out of respect and a desire to see that work continue. Independent artists in particular need this.
Counterexample: I wouldn't buy the soundtrack to "Battlestar Galactica" in a record store even if I won the lottery. I wouldn't take it if it was in the free box. But I'd download it for free, cause it's kinda goofy and nostalgic to have around. And if it were available to download in MP3 for a nickel a track, I'd buy it. Go figure.
Same goes for bootleg/OOP material. If I can't buy it anyway, but would/will if/when it becomes available, then it's no harm, no foul.
Is it legal? Is it ethical? Doesn't seem like a clear-cut issue either way, but I sleep just fine at night.
As far as the renting DVDs thing, as far as I'm concerned, it falls under timeshifting. Crappy or even average DVDs are too big to keep around on a hard drive frivolously, and the good ones I buy anyway. If it is technically illegal, it's very much a victimless crime, and anyone who would whine about it is a sanctimonious prick who deserves to be ruthlessly ignored.
Re:I'm the audience (Score:2)
When the picture is so clear that you can actually see artifacts of the MPEG-2 compression. That's not to like.
Re:I'm the audience (Score:2)
You can get better sound, better images, plus all the goodies you got in any advanced home entertainment system.
Re:one question.. why? (Score:5, Informative)
You are in the target demographic, but you just don't know it. Whether or not it suits you in particular is another matter. While we're comparing units, I've got a very nice home theater system with thousands of dollars in speakers and a front projector and a 8 foot wide screen, and the source is almost completely driven from my htpc. The 160 hour Tivo is also piped through the htpc. My 6000 tracks of vorbis files are available on the network to my htpc.
Software dvd decoding has advanced to the point that it equals pretty much even the most absurdly expensive hardware players, and for those with projectors it provides better scaling than anything but the best Faroudja chips. Unfortunately, all the best software for htpc's are currently available mostly for Windows and a box of similar functionality is still quite a ways off.
You should at least give it a chance. Go to AVS Forums HTPC section [avsforum.com] for more information. In short, a media center pc gives you the best of all worlds (including remote control operation and several well-designed simple interfaces) without the cost of audiophile level gear.
Re:one question.. why? (Score:2)
AFAIK, aren't the software DVD players all flag-reading players? Which would mean, no, it doesn't equal even reasonably priced dvd players on progressive output on DVDs with bad flags (all too common).
Re:one question.. why? (Score:2)
that is the joy of hacking.
Re:one question.. why? (Score:2)
If Macs were free, you'd be set (Score:3, Interesting)
And emulation capability [emulation.net] out the wazoo too.
Now if what you're asking for is a PC that acts like a Mac; just wait 5-10 years and they ought to be up to the standards of today's PowerBook. ;-P
Re:If Macs were free, you'd be set (Score:2)
And a PVR is available, too: the EyeTV [elgato.com]
Too bad it's US only, and uses USB to connect the capture hardware to the Mac.
The short answer is: NO! (Score:4, Insightful)
Buy a VCR
Buy a DVD player
Buy a Gaming Console or two
and then filter all of these through your receiver and/or high-er end video card, but notice that not once is the word 'free'mentioned.
And that is why Microsoft is aiming its marketing muscle in this general direction. I'minterested to see how well it does. I get to play with a Media Center box from HP here in the near future.
I'm interested to see how well the new toy from Bill works.
Re:The short answer is: YES! (Score:2, Informative)
All credit really should go to Issac and the other guys contributing to this project.
Recent CVS additions include a mythweather module and support for running decoding and encoding on different machines on the network (for a truly connected home ;p)
Not True for Everyone (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Not True for Everyone (Score:3, Informative)
Its only 3 blocks away (Score:2, Funny)
Hardware vs. Software (Score:5, Insightful)
There's still items like the Audiotron and Compaq Music Centers for audio, and of course you can use a pc for these, but the fact remains that the effort required to build such a device is outmatched by the lower cost of one or more components. Why would I spend even as little as $200 plus 5-10 hours work when I can spend $250 with no-hours work?
Many of the solutions out there are still not very hardy and quite fragile. To reduce time in building these, there really should be a PVR/HTPC Distro.
Re:Hardware vs. Software (Score:2, Informative)
Try DeMuDi, Debian Multimedia Distribution, currently at www.agnula.org [agnula.org] (may be down)
Re:Hardware vs. Software (Score:2)
Why does openness matter? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why does it matter that you're running on a free platform when you're playing non-free movies using illegal technology, pirated video game ROMs and MP3s?
In order for this to be real, we'd also need a collection of free movies and video games to add to the admittedly significant cache of free music. (There are also plenty of free video games, but since you are talking about MAME I don't think this is what you had in mind.) Otherwise, why does it matter if your media center uses pirated software, too?
Don't get me wrong -- I love the idea of disconnecting ourselves from the corporation-controlled content and software, but I don't think it helps us much if we develop a lot of free software in order to continue to consume the proprietary stuff.
On the other hand, I'm not saying that using pirated everything is all bad -- maybe a generation kids who grew up sharing things on Napster and clones will result in a less conservative congress, where things like the Copyright Term Extension Act won't be so common. (Which is what has me feeling so cynical right now...)
Re:Why does openness matter? (Score:4, Insightful)
Or, possibly, that generation will grow up realizing that their time and effort is worth something, and learn to despise people who are ripping them off of even their 1% royalty from the music companies, and then push for even stronger legislation to keep it from happening.
Somehow I dont see Corporate America getting any weaker.. but the current trend towards opressing the employee and empowering the corporation will lead to much more agressive employees and/or fed up people starting their own businesses. Once that happens, they will start attempting to make some money doing what they are doing. And face it, no-one cares WHAT record company they are ripping off when they copy MP3's or ogg-vorbis files around. Whether its the biggest music conglomerate, or some teeny tiny band who has their own label, they dont give a crap.
So no, I dont think you will see a "less conservative congress".. I think you might, however, see the teeth of some of the copyright and control acts that are happening now be actually used on something other than another corporation.
(And no, I'm not a troll, at least, not intentionally, But I recently found out it is going to cost on the order of 6K$ for my little band to record and produce 100 cd's.. and that doesnt count the cost of studio time, but _does_ count the cost of making sure we have applicable rights to all the songs we want to do.)
Maeryk
Re:Why does openness matter? (Score:3, Insightful)
So the ENTIRE GENERATION is going to be made of up musicians who are willing to bend over and agree to a contract with an RIAA-member record company? Intriguing.
The reason unknown bands sign on the dotted line is because the record labels can provide publicity. Another way to get publicity, one that doesn't cost anything, is to allow copies of your music to be freely redistributed through P2P channels and similar -- even inject your music directly into this distribution system.
There are plenty of talented and well-known artists RIGHT now that support free distribution of their art. Stop ignoring their existence because they don't fit in with the point you're trying to make.
making sure we have applicable rights to all the songs we want to do.
Hmm... maybe you should record ORIGINAL songs instead of 'ripping off the hard work of talented underpaid artists'.
Re:Why does openness matter? (Score:2)
Re:Why does openness matter? (Score:2)
Im not denying that that is a good way to get exposure. It is not, however, a good way to pay for dinner, new equipment, or the cost of recording the next (or first, if you truly follow the DIY formula) CD. I do music because I love to, and I would love to do it for a living.. but right now, I cannot afford to quit my job and starve for a few years to see my dream. I certainly wouldnt argue with a recording contract at this point, if it put some money on the table. but I have a hard time believing that anyone would willingly send money if they can get the song for free, no matter how many pleas I put out to the contrary.
Hmm... maybe you should record ORIGINAL songs instead of 'ripping off the hard work of talented underpaid artists'.
Where did I say artists are underpaid? You seem to be the one railing against the music machine here, not me pal. I like some of the "oldies".. (no one wrote em like Flatt and scruggs) but even if you want to use something that is considered "traditional" there are rights you have to secure to use it. (ever notice the "with permission of" or "thanks to" on the record albums near the titles?)
The onus of lawyers has made it nearly impossible for Joe Musician to look up and find out if someone actually owns a song, who owns it, and who you need to send the money too.. but there is at least one company that I know of that handles it all for a nice reasonable fee. Per copy. So you send say, 100 bucks, you can make 100 copies, (or whatever) per song.
The musician was an example. Substitute "hard working non-permanent employee at Microsoft" and make it about software. The meme works across a bunch of levels I can think of off the top of my head.
maeryk
Re:Why does openness matter? (Score:3, Informative)
At least for the PVR part, it does matter. Current commercial PVRs (TiVo/ReplayTV/TVserver) depend on a single commercial provider of guide data, so they can only be used where the guide service is available, which is, at the moment, in only 6 countries AFAIK (US, UK, JP, D, Aus, Sw). All others are left out in the cold.
An open PVR can be adapted to use whatever guide data is available online (and usable guide data is available in a lot more than 6 countries), making PVRs accessible (if the software is usable) to lots more people.
Re:Why does openness matter? (Score:3, Funny)
Shhh! Don't give /.ers any ideas. I don't want to see any more movies about Linux.
Alternatives (Score:3, Interesting)
1) Print a few more copies of your resume out and send them to companies. You've been out of work long enough and any minute the bill collectors are going to throw you and your family in jail.
2) Plant a tree. Picket outside fur factories and SUV dealerships. Teach a neighborhood child how to play the piano. Read to your kid. Make love to your wife.
3) Abandon all the worrying about conforming your life to the absurd paradigns and social revolutions inspired by lunatics like Richard M. Stallman, who was pink-slipped by the MIT Media Lab after years of little to no productive work.
Re:Alternatives (Score:2)
Re:Alternatives (Score:4, Funny)
"OK, buddy, I made love to your wife. Now did you use that time I freed up to code up my frickin' MAME/DVD/DiVX set-top box or not?"
always behind (Score:3, Interesting)
The entertainment industry will almost by deffinition be ahead of the open source entertainment subculture.
Honestly, would you rather play some mame roms rather than the Clone Wars on a brand new GameCube? The open source hardware is just not there and the software will always be lagging.
this isn't a troll. I honestly think that the commercial stuff will eternaly have the advantage of easy configuration, compatibility with current media and ease of use.
Re:always behind (Score:2)
Only true if the entertainment industry can convince people to keep shifting formats. The problem is that once quality has gotten "good enough" people will stop shifting. The music industry would love to convince people to shift from CDs to DVD-Audio or MiniDisc or something else, but people just won't stand for it. They've already purchased the music, it sounds fine and the disc will easily least their lifetime (barring mis-treatment). Why upgrade. DVDs may be the last video format they can get people to upgrade to for a long time. People feel "done". No, it's not the perfect format, but it's good enough.
On the subject of consoles, you are more correct. Consoles are nowhere near stabilizing, the gains from generation to generation remain obvious to any user. But I don't think it matters to people considering this sort of project. I think most people are interested in unifying audio and video (DVD, CD, VCD, television DVR, MP3s, Oggs, etc). Anything else, like MAME, is just icing on the cake.
Where's the hardware..? (Score:4, Insightful)
For example: Where are the slim-line style cases similar in style to current VCRs and DVD players ? Where are the low-profile good quality video capture cards? or the motherboards with good video capture capability built in ?
And what about price. For the digital media center to really take off... it needs to be priced within the range of current DVD-players etc.
The ideal box would have a sleek case design, be very quiet, yet be powerfull enough to handle playing demanding media formats. Not to mention be able to burn captured shows off to cd... or for the very rich DVDs...
Softwares there... now we just need a company to put a hardware package together and get the price down below $1000 bucks..
Re:Where's the hardware..? (Score:2, Informative)
Benchmarks show the performance of the newest C3s (933mhz) on par with P2 450s. Plus, almost everything is included... . All that in a 6" x 6" x 1" mobo w/1 pci slot. Imagine the possiblities... not bad for $160.
copyprotection and merchandising ... (Score:5, Interesting)
A VCR I purchased a few years back when dead on me a month or so ago. When I opened it up to see what the problem was, I was confronted with cheap plastic gears -- apparently made to wear out over time. And so it goes.
So until there is more money in creating all-in-one computers that are home entertainment systems that are washing machines and toasters, we're going to continually get knickle-n-dimed to death -- or at least until I break down and buy a HD TV flat panel display.
Re:copyprotection and merchandising ... (Score:2)
Could you explain how copy protection allowed you to play 8 minutes of the movie but nothing after that?
Re:copyprotection and merchandising ... (Score:2)
It's highly likely that the DVD you rented had been completely fscked up by someone else who had rented it before you did. How often do you rent DVD's anyway? I'm not sure I have ever rented one that I didnt have to skip a minute or so of the movie somewhere due to disc abuse.
~GoRK
already done? (Score:3, Insightful)
My question is, according to the article we want an open source program that does it all. I have several programs that do this but are from microsoft (WMP etc) and not a one can do all that I want. This leads to a fundamental question about computer design: we don't want to know how to do it we just want it done. Like a telephone, we want the computer to do what it is supposed to do without any question. To use a telephone, you pick it up and dial, but we have become so used to it that we don't even realize that this piece of technology hasn't been around for centurys.
The goal of creating an open source all in one PVR program is to make computers less like a computer and more like a tool that everyone knows how to use. I love open source, but I don't mind not knowing how it works if it works. We pay for phones, so why shouldn't we pay for software that provides an entertainment package for us.
DaveDina is trying to.. (Score:5, Informative)
It's also being equiped with communication features such as e-mail checking, a phone answering machine, and even a who's-rang-the-door feature.
Check it all out at their website, davedina.apestaart.org [apestaart.org], and join their mailinglist!
You can also come hang out at #davedina on Freenode [freenode.net]
not possible (Score:2)
No you're not (Score:2, Insightful)
Not as long as you don't care about usability. Right now it's all about how smart we are because we figured out how to use Linux and how we need to get the best and the brightest and filter out the rest by having every potential open source user go through the same ordeal.
Happy with my system (Score:4, Interesting)
Hardware:
- Moderately fast CPU and MB, plenty of RAM
- ATI Radeon 7000 (Composite/SVideo out) going to video in on TV
- Audio out to reciever
- Wireless KBD and mouse
- SNES Joypads wired to parallel port
Software:- MPlayer for DVD
- Snes9x for games
- Two X configs: One for TV, one for Monitor.
Not as user friendly as I would have hoped for the wife and kids, they still have the tendency to use an actual DVD and SNES console for games instead of the copies on the computer, but I think the experiment for me was at least successful. My current plan is to make it user friendly enough that I can put the DVD and SNES in my daughters room.Think outside that box... (Score:2)
The new combo TV/computer will be part of the entire home system...one that includes the air conditioner (Now, in Korea, I can control my AC over the net), and the refrigerator...baby monitors...home security...etc.
Think open source home...
We're close, but not in the next two years.
Sony and Matsushita are happy to help... (Score:3, Insightful)
Here's the key quote for those who don't want to register:
"Matsushita and Sony have agreed to jointly develop the Linux operating system for digital consumer electronic products, in a highly unusual and cooperative deal between two of the fiercest rivals in the industry... Sony and Matsushita will continue to use the existing operating systems for specific products - such as Windows for Vaio - but expect the newly developed version of Linux to be increasingly used in home electronic devices, such as portable and home AV products."
The reason this trend will go places is quite simple: The much-bandied-about "Microsoft Tax" is real, and the major CE manufacturers don't want to pay it. This combined with the strong likelihood (--> certainty) that MS will attempt to commoditized them ensures that they will fight back. These guys are not only smart, they are bigger than Microsoft (Sony: $60bn revenues) and they are determined to not get cut out of the market, or turned into Compaq/HP style failures. Who benefits? The Linux community is going to get a huge boost, because the single best weapon these firms have against MS is Linux, and they are going to use it with a vengeance.
No but you can probably build one for about 900$ (Score:4, Informative)
connect to that a usb TV tuner that supports Video Out also (for about 200$ from hauppage) and you have a little box that plays dvds on the tv along with surround sound
you have 200$ left over to buy an IR kit that you can plug into your computer's mobo and stick the receiver on the front panel and program your remote control. ( I know there's been lotsa projects on the web for remote controled computers and it's not that hard) simply program the remote's buttons with a specific command per button.. ie... button 1 will call winamp.. button 2 will call the tv tuner.. so on so forth. so for about 1000$ you can easily have a hobby to try and set something like this all up
btw speaker systems are not included in this equation... cuz good ones can throw yer costs another 300$.
if you don't like the oven.. you can buy a small form factor desktop case... it's roughly the size of your everyday Amplifier case. To make sure you can get a small one.. buy one of those ECS motherboards... only 3 pci slots (some have only 2)
here's a rack up of total costs
Case with power supply (Enlight is a good compnay)- 50$
Mobo (ECS brand)- 50$
CPU (p4's 1.8 ghz are cooler runnign and quieter)- 120$
SB audigy 1/2 platinum ex (comse you a remote that you can hack at and already has IR plus has all that digital audio out/in, line in/out, optical in/out for all your sound needs)- 160$
Geforce 4 ti4200 w/ video out- 150$
Hauppage winTV HDTV PCI- 230$
hard disk (80 gigs depending the size of your por
Klipsch pro media 5.1 speakers- 300$
USB gamepads x2- $40
DVD driver w/software- 50$
windows 2k- 80$
winamp- Free
Aol im- Free
Divx encoder/decoder- free
Watching pr0n on the big screen tv - Pricesless
Total Cost of Project: ~1400$
and it's very possible... I'm half way there already... all I need now is that HDTV tv tuner... and a big HDTV 60" plasma display.
Yes... but is it for Joe 6p? (Score:2)
Free Software/Open Source is one thing: You program once, have fun, and then release the compiled files together with the source. Of which the latter will be gladly ignored by the masses. But that's OK. They use the compiled version and are happy. And you are happy that your program is being used. That you also share the compiled version doesn't add extra cost for you because it's digital stuff that can be copied effortlessly.
But with hardware it's a different game, IMO. Even if you offer the schematics for such a multimedia all-purpose entertainment thing, someone still has to compile... ehh build it. This time it's physical so easy copying is not possible (unless you have access to a replicator [calormen.com] somewhere). So, who is going to do this? People won't be willing to assemble stuff for themselves. Heck, even *I* used to do more myself when I was younger (and had more time and enthusiasm). Nowadays I buy quite a lot...
But maybe it's the chance for some garage company to just build the stuff based on open sourced layouts? Hmmm... Not sure that this will work either. What about distribution channels? One reason why Free Software/OSS has been so successful is that almost everybody has access to the Internet somehow and if a person knows the right address, he/she can download all that is needed. So, the distribution is more or less just a matter of getting people to know where to look. Physical things however have to be shipped, to be physically delivered by any means. And people will want to have a look at them in some kind of shop before they are going to buy them. (The gateway business model)
So the bottomline of my reasoning is, that I am quite sceptical whether it will be a big success. But it could be a reasonable (moral) succes within the geek community, so why not try? Just don't expect to see the equivalent of RedHat or SuSE anytime soon.
XBOX (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:XBOX (Score:2)
And to all you who piss and moan about the Xbox hackers: it's not because we're ripping off MS, it's not because it makes a cheap PC, it's because we CAN, and we feel really good about an Xbox that runs stuff it's not supposed to when it's all said and done.
Oh, and when Xboxes are $50 at the pawn shop, you'll thank the geeks that are writing the docs and writing the code that you'll be looking for then.
We're there... (Score:2)
Freevo [sourceforge.net]
and
MythTV [mythtv.org]
The problem with these packages at this point are twofold.
First, they aren't exactly easy to set up. Most people will need to recompile their kernels for bttv support, and not every Linux user out there knows how to safely rebuild a kernel. Then, at least with freevo, there is the matter of getting your dependencies set. This can be difficult for some, especially Redhat 7.3 users, as many of the packages that freevo relies on claim Redhat's versions of gcc or some obscure perl module are b0rked.
Also, they are missing some of the features that some commercial PVR's boast, such as HDTV (the tuner cards cost about as much as a PVR) and making suggestions for shows you might like.
Personally, I'd like to see a PVR distro.. perhaps a even Live CD. That would help solve the difficulty of setup, but as far as lack of features go, given time, I suspect any one of these projects can superceed commercial PVR's, at least among the slashdot type crowd.
I'm doing it right now! (Score:2, Informative)
It's very possible & many people are doing it.
(Media.Box [sarahemm.net], ebox [bluelightning.org], FreeplayTV [freeplaytv.org], etc...)
Just a side note... This is not a replacement for Tivo or any other recorder.
It's alot more expensive & a lot harder...
This is a project for people like those that read
-MasMan
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
-Albert Einstein
Convergence? Maybe in the office or den (Score:3, Insightful)
Still a Tough Project (Score:2, Interesting)
HDTV tuner
PVR
Progressive-scan DVD player
Music Server
I'm still a ways away from purchasing an HDTV-capable TV, and am taking the time to educate myself along the way. An affordable (less than $1k) home-built entertainment appliance like I've described that doesn't require a keyboard for light operation is probably a ways away.
If you have to ask "why".... (Score:2, Insightful)
Flamethrower Linux (Score:2, Informative)
HTPC Forum (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php
That forum is related to all things PC/Media related.
They also have a specific Linux users forum at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php
The other forums at avscience are great resources too, so dont hesitate to check them out, but these two forums should fit this particular topic.
The right tool for the job. (Score:2, Interesting)
I don't trust anyone who wants to turn a PC into a "media center." The convergence devices that Microsoft and others envision are designed for PASSIVE entertainment. Don't stand up and say anything, just sit there on the couch and watch. An internet-connected PC is designed for ACTIVE entertainment. It encourages you to participate, to communicate, to share your knowledge and ideas and creations with the world. Linux was not created by some schmo on the sofa with a clicker in his hand.
This is not to say that passive entertainment is a bad thing, mind you. What I'm saying is that a general-purpose computer is not the right tool for this job. Ultimately, we're better off having a PC for one set of tasks and a TiVo, DVD Player and PS2 for another. If people really wanted full-fledged PCs in their living rooms, the guys who created WebTV would be billionaires right now.
PVR functionality limited on PCs? (Score:5, Interesting)
Over the past few months I've been looking into this. I really want a PVR, but can't buy one off-the-shelf (no service available in .nl).
One of the things I noticed is that it doesn't seem possible to put more than one capture card into a PC. At least I've seen reports that say Windows can only handle on capture card. If this is true, it would be a shame. I currently have two VCRs. If I buy a PVR, I'd like to improve on current functionality and be able to record two programs while watching (with PVR functions like 'pause live TV' available) a third.
Now, I haven't been able to absolutely confirm this. Does anyone here know, and is the situation different when you use Linux?
And how adaptable are current open-PVR efforts? Is it possible for a non-programmer (at least, nothing beyond a few simple Applescripts) to e.g. get the software to recognize guide data from a different website than originally intended? Most software PVRs seem linked pretty much to a single guide data provider.
Re:PVR functionality limited on PCs? (Score:2)
MoviX (Score:5, Informative)
We're not as far away as you might thing.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Uh...maybe I don't get it, but... (Score:2)
Then get the dvr software hauppage has on it's website, add mame and your done! I record whatever I want on my HD, timed useing a tvguide website. The only thing I have to do is put in when and what I want to record, presto! That last step is really all that separates my setup from a true tivo...but then, I only pay subscription for my phat
So what exactly is the problem here? That it runs windows?
TuxBox (Score:2, Interesting)
Already been done (Score:2)
Been using a PC as PVR, DVDMP3,mpg, etc for months (Score:2, Informative)
So, TV, DVD, DivX, Mp3's--anything you can think of, and its is pretty easy to use--Mainly due to Logitech wireless LED mouse.
I posted my hastily written EPG code here: http://x-epg.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=55 [x-epg.net].
The system of your dreams, $300 (Score:3, Informative)
does what you want, is completely open source (hardware design and the software it runs, currently MythTV), and you can buy a preassembled system from them for just over $300 (although it doesn't include NTSC, you have to pay ATI another $50 or so for that). Since it's based on MythTV, you can play MAME on it, and many other things.
I want a little bit more before I buy: SPDIF output, for example. But they have the basics already; the rest is coming soon.
-Billy
I think it's going to depend on MPEG (Score:2)
The Win TV 250 PVR has an encoder that some users are having success with the encoding, but it is still very young. Serious discussion is going on on this discussion group [shspvr.com]. However, the pci card forces users to choose a larger form factor box that can accommodate a pci card instead of the cool small boxes [mini-itx.com]. The MPEG decoder portion has been gloriously included in the new via epia board using the new chipset. I haven't tested how well it works (or if it is supported in linux yet).
In essence, using off the shelf components takes a lot of hardware that would normally be on the motherboard of a true home theater component. Thus, to achieve this we are getting closer but not quite there yet.
All the other operations (mp3/games/networking) etc are already available and very usable on a 933 mhz Via C3.
You need a "standard" (Score:3, Interesting)
1. But I do mean a CD-distro a la Knoppix that you can pop in your PVR-machine and have it work, and that'll be the "standard". Not running on top of ten different distros. There are a lot of good reasons for having ten different distros, but not on a task-spesific device where you'll ideally want to stay in media-center programs 100% of the time.
2. Absolutely no messing with a computer first, setting up anything, or running any kind of command utility. At the very most, some kind of hack prompt to choose NTSC/PAL. GUI interface for the rest.
3. With a good "supported hardware" list that could be a lot shorter than Linux's (like: these TV cards autodetect & tested). As little manual configuring as possible, preferably none. Put some work into autodetection if there are working drivers that don't have so.
4. Some "smart" media library. For always-on users, the ability to put in a cd, have it get the names from FreeDB, rip as ogg and store (default setting being "manual", with an "always" checkbox. After all, it could be borrowed or something, and then it's not covered by fair use to copy it... Kinda like Windows never wants to remember I want to use Nero and not Windows to burn CDs.
5. Dunno if it's being done, but run CDs and DVDs at 1x when playing directly (you can dynamically set this can't you?) so they'll be *quiet*. No 52x CD-reader or 16x DVD-reader with a high-pitch annoying whine. Here's definately some of the reason I think you need *one* distro. Keep speed up if you just want to store it for future use though.
6. *After* you have achived that, try to inspire some mobo-producer to integrate the popular components on one mobo, with a custom made sleek case, something like the mini-ITX/mini-ATX cases I see around. One 5 1/4" slot (CD/DVD/CD-burner/DVD-burner), one 3 1/2" slot (HDD). Ethernet, Firewire and USB for wireless keyboad/mouse. Make it low and wide, like a VCR not like a tower. Important: Make a couple fronts, minimum black/silver. Find a spot on the case front to integrate the IR/radio sensor. A "standard" LCD would also be nice, for when you're only playing music. As for processors, I wouldn't try to put a 2-3GHz proc in this one. Music & DVDs need silence. Cool CPU, passive cooling if you can (maybe with a heat changer like the Shuttle XPCs). As this'll be a ways off, probably SATA, like the Barracuda V. Those smaller cables will be important in such a tight case.
But like I said, start with one PVR-distro CD that'll run directly off your TV and I think you've come far. Also, don't forget what that Ethernet connection is there for, SMB or similar for moving files to and from.
Kjella
Kjella
Reasons why for all the nay sayers (Score:2)
2) TiVo is a company with company goals. These aren't always in line with what people want.
3) MS wants in in this area. If there's a Free alternative to what is essentually an applience (read MS's inertia doesn't apply) then hw manufacturers/assemblers will quite happily tell MS where to go to save a couple of hundred dollars.
4) It'll be fun.
If they ever start actually selling this ... (Score:4, Informative)
It's a Linux based box with photos, pvr, music, etc. with TV out and IR. If they can ever bring this to market, it'll run $699.
I was going to build my own, but would end up spending more cash and building a sub-par hack UI. I need something that the wife can work so I can toss my 13 yr. old VCR before it dies.
Movix (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Hopefully... (Score:5, Informative)
Who needs a set-top box that crashes or a computer that slows down because it's recording today's episode of Friends?
Well, we want one that won't crash. Or slow down. That's why we want a Linux set-top box. ;)
The tech exists to hack it together right now; it would be moderately expensive and rather ugly, but it could be done (Linux-supported TV-out + IR input port + LIRC + Linux BIOS or the Linux save-to-disk hack + xine/favorite decoder -- google for all these, I'm too lazy to link). And you can't say "Computers and TVs were not made to mix". The DVD player that might be sitting on your shelf is basically a simplified computer. If it can play MP3s, it is even more so. How about your Sega Dreamcast? We ported Linux to the thing, for God's sake! That can perform all the operations needed to call it a computer under Turing's definition...so you already have computers plugged into your TV, unless you're strictly an antenna-only guy.
Linux already works as an OS for many embedded systems. Your set-top box is merely another such system. I won't even get into the quagmire of a DRM argument, but let it be said for now that there are people who have gotten Linux PVRs working [linuxprofe...utions.com]. It can be done now. With work, it can be done much more smoothly later.
Re:Hopefully... (Score:4, Informative)
Seriously, though, a PC in the media room isn't such a bad idea. I have one set up, and it lets me do a lot of things:
- Use a cheaper RGB projector instead of an HDTV one.
- Use the DVD player in my PC instead of an expensive progressive scan external one.
- Flip between TV, a movie, a game, my email, and the web easily.
It's cool when you're watching a movie to be able to pause it, bring up a browser and look up what other movies the actor was in, that sort of thing.
Recording video on a PC is a big deal today perhaps (for some PCs anyway) but in a few years it won't be - just like playing MP3s was barely possible in real-time a few years ago but now you don't even notice.
A wireless keyboard and mouse makes a great remote control too.
- Steve
Re:Hopefully... (Score:2)
I would be interested to know how the quality of picture stands up between the two. I have a Toshiba Widescreen (57" projection) and a Sanyo 2/3 pulldown connected through component Monster Cables (which Im sure I paid way too much for) and digital audio. The movie sucks plotwise, but "Driven" with Sly and Burt Reynolds looks *DAMN* nice on it. Pearl Harbor looks extremely good too.. better than the theater I saw it in.
How good, realisticly, does that internal DVD player look on a decent TV?
Maeryk
Re:Hopefully... (Score:2)
Re:Hopefully... (Score:3, Insightful)
Signed,
Some Luddite A Generation Ago
Re:Hopefully... (Score:5, Interesting)
I would contest this comment. I have a TV with a VGA in on it and before I moved I had a computer hooked up to it as a capture box. Not only would it capture TV shows, but stuff I got from other places (DVD rips or shows traded on P2P) could be played on it. I know from experience what this is like and would like to clarify some of the negative comments you made.
"Who needs a set-top box that crashes..."
I ran Win2k on this box. It had an uptime of around 2-3 months before needing a reboot. My VCR can't even go that long without ending up losing it's time and flashing 12:00. With Linux, it'd likely be even better. I'm not entirely sure about that though, I'm fairly certain that Windows wasn't the problem. I'm pretty sure it was a driver issue.
"...or a computer that slows down because it's recording today's episode of Friends?"
That's a semi valid point. If I watched something while the machine was recording, it'd do niether well. The capture would get lagged and the playback would be choppy. Though this was a 400mhz machine, it wouldn't have mattered how fast the machine was. A dual processor solution would have been neceassary. I doubt that a dual processor 500mhz machine would be very expensive today. If the recorder was prioirtized on the second processor and everything else done on the first, it'd be quite fine. On a single processor machine, it's still not that big of deal. If I wanted to watch a show while the machine was recording, I'd just hit it from the network and play the show it had already captured. It didn't cause a noticable drain on the recording. The streams were only 400kbits or so. I can honestly say I've never been bitten in the ass by what you described.
I never played games on this machine (though I know for a fact it'd do just fine with them, it used to be on my desk...) but I did do infrequent websurfing and email checking with it. Despite the low-res NTSC screen, it still more or less worked.
The plus side of this setup was I had a media server to store everything on. Whenver I went out of town I'd just dump a few shows I was interested in watching to my laptop, then I'd have some stuff to watch. Also, while I'm browsing, sometimes I watch a show in a small window. (That's how I kept up on That 70's Show, heh) Being able to click back a few seconds because I didn't catch what got the audience laughing was worthwhile.
Watching videos this way got addictive. Sometimes during commercials I get bored and go check my email or something. Unfortunately, when my attention gets grabbed I tend to miss the rest of the show. That sucks when you're watching something like 24.
All in all, it was a damn nice experience. The biggest problem with my system was the lack of a remote. Oh well. Eventually I'll get it set back up again.
Re:Hopefully... (Score:2)
All you've listed are challenges, not stop the presses problems. Nothing you've said backs up your suggestion that it'll never get there. You would have been better of saying "It has some steps to climb before it gets there."
Re:Hopefully... (Score:2)
Re:Xbox (Score:4, Interesting)
I have heard people putting in large hard drives into their X-Box to do this sort of thing and to store all their X-Box games on it. No more carrying around the original games. Supposedly the X-Box binary newsgroup is #4 in terms of number of message headers. I heard its also possible to simply rent games then rip them to an X-Box hard drive.
Most of this is illegal though so I am not advocating it. I can see why Microsoft is upset about Mod chips. BTW, I don't do this because:
1) I don't own an X-Box.
2) Even if I did I wouldn't play game on it because I prefer PC games.
However, I really like the idea of using it as a media server for my LEGALLY owned mp3's, DivX's (home movies), family photos (slideshows), and DVD's.
Re:Obligitory (Score:2)
Anyway, I've seen the software and I couldn't tell from their webpage whether you could actually choose what to record from the PS2. Is it just a distributed media player? From the previous posts, it sounds like it doesn't even have FFWD and REWIND! Impressive.