Lifetime Careers in IT? 568
CyPlasm asks: "MSN Careers had this article posted the other day that asked about a "Lifetime Career in IT: Is It Possible?" Does the average Slashdot reader think they will retire (with a pension, benefits, etc) after a long and successful career in IT?"
Certainly (Score:5, Insightful)
Not me though. I'm going to claw my way to middle management and worry about TPS reports.
Re:Certainly (Score:5, Funny)
And I'll make sure you get another copy of that memo. Okay?
It would be nice to have that kind of job security (Score:5, Insightful)
A few years back, IBM was reevaluating the FAA systems for Y2K compliance [house.gov] and they came to a conclusion:
There is nobody left who understands the system.
Moral?
Work hard and then fuck the documentation when nobody is looking.
Re:It would be nice to have that kind of job secur (Score:3, Funny)
Who says anybody *originally* understood it?
Re:Certainly (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Certainly (Score:4, Funny)
The thing is Bob it's not that I am lazy, its that I just don't care...
Hey! (Score:5, Funny)
What this probably means is that I'll die penniless - a broken man - and that my genius will only be discovered 200 years later after my death (when corporations are overthrown by the starving masses, declared illegal, and their suppressed documents are released, causing a second renaissance and pulling all the world out of the second dark ages).
Or I'll just do something else that I'm good at.
Re:Hey! (Score:5, Funny)
You must be really small. Especially with the integration that is anticipated.
Seriously...
To Die Penniless (Score:3, Funny)
It is possible... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It is possible... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:It is possible... (Score:3, Insightful)
From hobby it came, and hopefully will soon return (Score:5, Interesting)
Anyone need an overpriced mechanic who specializes in aircooled VWs/Porsches?
Re:From hobby it came, and hopefully will soon ret (Score:5, Informative)
Re:BMW Mechanic (Score:4, Informative)
BMW's by the way use fiber optics to drive all sorts of systems. The courses I believe take 22 weeks.
I used to work in computers. Overclocking just doesn't feel the same when you tweak an engine and hear it break class and make car alarms cry.
If you have any questions or would like to know more about UTI , the BMW manufacturing program, let me know. I'll be glad to help. email: crea5e AT yahoo dot com.
Re:BMW Mechanic (Score:5, Interesting)
He's been approached by a NASCAR team and offered even more as well.
I find it amusing when IT dorks and Project Managers turn their nose on skilled mechanics and plumbers because they get their hands dirty. Skilled blue-collar workers make big bucks without having to pay for the trappings of success (fancy car, $50 ties, etc.) that schmucks who sit at a desk all day do.
Of course. . . . (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Of course. . . . (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Of course. . . . (Score:4, Insightful)
Many times it has to do with the right implementation of said paradigm. I won't go into detail, but most of us know that the concept of an abstract syntax machine was around long before Java became the next big Fad. But implementation, market forces, etc. all play a part in the buy-in of a technology.
What's up with all the depressing career stories? (Score:5, Interesting)
One week it's another company is dotbombing
Another week is a company replacing all technical people with Taiwanese made sock puppets
And now how we better think about something else if we want to not starve when we reach retirement age.
I can't feel the love guys, are you trying to kill us with more stress???
Re:Most insightful thing I've read since New Years (Score:5, Insightful)
And until someone codes up the AI that creates the software, there will always be good work to be had in IT.
If you're talking CASE tools - until they write the AI that tells the CASE tool what the business plan is, and how to turn that business plan into something the CASE tool understands - there will still always be good work to be had in IT.
In its broadest sense, IT is about taking things that exist in human minds (ideas) and expressing them in a form that machines (bare silicon, compilers, or CASE tools) can turn into code.
Because that process always starts with a human, until machines develop sentience, there'll always be a need for humans in IT.
The level of abstraction rises - but that's a good thing. Would you want to design and code something like KDE using front panel switches? An assembler?
Re:What's up with all the depressing career storie (Score:4, Insightful)
There's a WORLD of difference between saying "Sure, the city's a little flooded right now, maybe you should spend a couple of nights in a hotel outside of the city for comfort", and "SHIT! THE CITY'S FLOODED! THERE WILL NEVER BE A CITY AGAIN! PANIC PANIC PANIC!!!"
In case you haven't heard, most people are NOT making money now, no matter what profession they're in. My dad makes BOXES in a factory, and they're having paycuts. My mom takes care of the mentally ill, they're having paycuts. (the caretakers, not the mentally ill.)
-Sara
Over 1 million say no.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Engineers are destined to get fired! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Engineers are destined to get fired! (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes. Indeed, let's say that.
* A building lasts for 30-50 years easily. Software lasts, what, 3 or 4 years before there is a new release significantly improved to justify a new expenditure?
* Buildings require little to no engineering intervention in the intervening period. A typical software project is several orders of magnitude more complex than a typical building. They require constant maintenance.
* Buildings that need new features rarely depend on engineers. For the most part repartitioning of the cubes, or even moving a non-bearing wall, requires no engineering. Software gets new features regularly and requires engineers to get the job done.
So, while I'm a consultant and love it. To say that everyone need be is speculation about what the state of things might be, based on a completely untenable position. Software and building engineers aren't the same and never will be.
Re:Engineers are destined to get fired! (Score:3, Insightful)
I've been a full-time consultant for about 4 years and I've observed that 50% of my work is from repeat customers. Hopefully the other 50% later *become* repeat customers. :)
Whether you are a prostitute or not depends on the kind of work you do, not whether or not you move around. A prostitute takes any work that comes along. Unfortunately, in 2002 I became a "consulting prostitute," so to speak, as I've taken projects that didn't really interest me other than the money because things were tight last year. 2003 is looking up, though, so hopefully I can stop being a consulting prostitute this year.
Re:Engineers are destined to get fired! (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Engineers are destined to get fired! (Score:5, Funny)
While on the subject, is anyone looking for a young, highly disciplined software developer? Please? Anyone? Help, the escape key isn't working!
I'd be willing to bet... (Score:3, Interesting)
They weren't really IT people either, many were 'idea men' or whatever. Most people that lost a dot com job, and stayed lost, lost the job cuz they sucked.
Those that didn't found jobs in the real industries.
Through the military, yes (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Through the military, yes (Score:5, Insightful)
Yearly family Tricare payment is about the same as my current coworkers monthly payment.
And I have had very, very few complaints about Tricare, either claims or service.
Re:Through the military, yes (Score:5, Interesting)
Sure (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Sure (Score:3, Insightful)
if you're willing to move to India and take 1/10 of your current pay, you can have a lifetime job.
Nope. Not unless you're young and Indian. The Indian "consulting" companies (body shops) here have made it clear they don't hire Americans. The comment was funny, though.
Re:Sure (Score:3, Insightful)
Is it me, or is something wrong with this picture?
Retire? Who's going to retire? (Score:5, Interesting)
And I don't see that being in computers makes it any easier or harder. Sure you've got to retrain every year, but we've got it easy compared to doctors, and even your average factory job changes enough that it's an issue there too. Stop learning and you die, first mentally then physically!
Re:Retire? Who's going to retire? (Score:3, Insightful)
I almost feel sorry for the people who I will be replacing in a few years, when they take a permanent vacation from contributing to society.
Thanks for the laugh. I don't have to worry about being replaced by you. Do you really believe most companies are concerned about social contributions or individual abilities? You have a rude awakening awaiting when you find out it's all about the bottom line and the CEOs stock options.
Idealism is something most young people suffer from, but when coupled with arrogance, it's very annoying.
The odds of finishing an IT career... (Score:4, Insightful)
Settle into a company, make yourself indispensible, and you are set... If we avoid nuclear war, and stop using SUVs...
Huh? (Score:5, Insightful)
1) Why on Earth not? The article doesn't offer any reason to doubt the rather obvious conclusion that, of course, people will have lifelong careers in IT. Except that "MSN Careers member EsTeeJay" thinks otherwise.
2) Maybe I'm nitpicking, but why is a pension a prerequisite for a lifetime career? I'm not holding my breath for a pension but still expect to spend a lifetime doing what I do.
The only reason I can think of to doubt the long-term potential of an IT career is that systems may become so intuitive there's no need for a admins. But given the way software progresses, one doesn't see much chance of that.
I'll bite... (Score:5, Interesting)
It's been well documented that the average career of a programmer is about 4 years, before they get promoted, move on to something else, or go insane. People just can't take being a code monkey, with the insane hours, for longer than that. There aren't enough management positions for all of them to get promoted within 4 years, so a lot probably quit for something else.
Of course, it begs the question - why does this situation exist in IT? I think the answer is that there is such a flood of programmers (both domestic and "imports") that employers have 0 incentive to make them happy. Programmers are disposable - those that aren't promoted get used up.
I would say there are only a few ways out of this. Either educate kids how shitty an IT job can be, or close off the tech visas for foreigners. But really, neither will happen. So we get to enjoy generation after generation of programmers (and admins) get disillusioned with what they used to do for a hobby.
Happy life!
Re:I'll bite... (Score:5, Insightful)
SAY WHAT? Where is this well documented? Other than people who have just started, I don't know many good code monkeys who gave up after four years. I and a number of friends have been going at it for 10. My brother (much older than I) has been going at it for more than 25 years.
And I have to say I'm glad there aren't enough management positions for all of them. I've quit jobs because they wanted to push me into management.
I LIKE coding, and I'm very good at it. I don't want to manage and get away from the tech. Although I have accepted architect roles as long as I could keep my hands dirty.
I can see myself staying in IT for my entire career. I can also see myself going low tech and becoming a boat wright.
I agree that there are places where programmers are disposable. This is probably where you get the 4 year people from. I was lucky enough to start in a place that wasn't like that. And now I'm lucky enough to have the insight to recognize a place like that and the skills to walk away to find a better place.
Or traders, consultants, etc... (Score:4, Insightful)
You get out of school, and run like hell. Most people fall off (not everyone can be a senior partner at a law firm or Big-5 company), that's how it works. With the IT path, you find something else, or you sit and rot. You can sit in a big company's IT staff for years, but the hot-shot jobs are all going to be churn and burn. You want the comparitively big bucks, get ready to run like hell.
Ya know all those cushy management consulting jobs that your business major friends wanted? Talk to them after 6 months, 12 months, 24 months. Some make it and go to B-school, others wash out and go find something else to do. If they couldn't take 80 hours a week of crunching excel spreadsheets that get ignored, they wash out.
Stock traders, they can't sit there staring at a screen forever. Same with brokers. The ones that sit in a phone room either make it or wash out.
Lawyers can go and start a 1 person law firm, but the big firms will suck you dry. You can't bill 80 hours, you can't make the next rung. That's life. There is only room for one CEO, and he can only have 7-10 people reporting to him, and so on, and so on. That means that for every person that advances, 6-9 wash out.
Such is life. You can find engineering jobs that last, but the hot-shot code wringing dot-com lifestyle? Yeah you only got 3-5 years of it, same for everyone else.
Alex
Re:Rampant Age Discrimination--at Age 35 (Score:5, Insightful)
People like to blame <your-personal-subpopulation-here> discrimination for there own short-comings and lack of willingness to keep current. The way not to be a victim of age discrimination is to embrace change and stay current. Employers will pay for experience as long as you can apply it to current technology and the problems to be solved NOW.
Of course!!! (Score:4, Funny)
calm before the storm (Score:5, Interesting)
Asking a generation x geek today if they will 'retire from IT' might in 30 years seem as inappropriate a question as saying, "well gosh, do you think you could spend your career in education?"
The obvious answer being that of course you can spend your lifetime in IT work. In it's current manifestation, it is a new field. One that will continue to branch out in ways currently not imagined.
Cheers,
-- RLJ
Re:calm before the storm (Score:5, Interesting)
Speaking of which, I'm surprised there isn't more mention of education in this thread. I'm a graduating senior in Business Information Systems (insert sound of CS majors snickering because they think IS majors choose such because they can't hack it in CS), and recently rethought my plans for the future. I could go to work in June making a good salary. I could be there at 8, sit in my cubicle, and leave at 5. Things would get better over the years, assuming I don't get laid off, but I'd always have to deal with office politics and other such BS.
So I went and talked to a professor that I'd had a year ago, and told him that I was interested in pursuing a PhD and eventually teaching at the college level. Let me tell you, if you all had heard what he said, you'd probably be lining up to get in a doctoral program and get a teaching/research position. There are clear benefits such as job security, a low-stress environment (generally), and the ability to do consulting work on the side. And on top of that you can influence students in a way that nobody else can.
I was curious about salaries, so I looked his up: six figures. He's about 45 years old. I checked some salaries of top-level ITS employees at the university, and only a handful of them were even close to a six-figure salary. Not to mention what they probably have to deal with on a daily basis. I quickly decided that such a career was not for me.
Of course the educational arena is not without its faults, and I'm sure there are plenty of happy senior system admins, but for me, the choice is easy.
hmmm (Score:3, Interesting)
what about those of us that aren't in IT now??
Very Difficult These Days (Score:4, Interesting)
Difficult, but possible (Score:5, Insightful)
Consulting: You work for a consulting firm and merc yourself out to the highest bidder. (Benefits: Lots of money, though little in corporate benefits (Stock, Options, etc.))
Management: The top of the IT ladder is CTO. Most companies have them now. (That puts you on the Board of Directors, and a VP after your name). (Disadvantage: You are now a technical manager, not a technician.)
Company Leap Frog: Work for Company A, beef up your resume and jump to Company B (higher up the corporate food chain). Work for Company B for awhile and do the same and jump to Company C (again with an increase in Title and Wage) and so on and so forth. (I have worked longer in my company the Every Director/VP in my building. Most have not worked here longer then 2 years.)
Conclusion: It is possible, even using tactics found in other departments. But is the end result really worth it? (Even if it is what you want to do for the rest of your life?)
Sure, we have lifetime employment. (Score:5, Funny)
IT in Government (Score:5, Insightful)
So yes, lifetime IT jobs probably exist and they don't necessarily have to be boring. It really depends on what you are looking for.
Hell no! (Score:5, Funny)
A lifelong career IS possible, IF.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:A lifelong career IS possible, IF.. (Score:4, Informative)
you blow your brains out at age 30. This is the only industry I know of that eviscerates itself every few years and rejects the knowledge of its senior experts.
That's graphic but well put. It's (not) funny that the IT-heavy companies are all run by old codgers who think that anyone over 35 is a has-been (except for themselves who are all eternally brilliant because of the MBA, of course).
After 40, I've found the only way to get an IT job is to know someone in the company who is willing to present in your resume (many times a company won't advertise a position - they just ask for recommendations from current employees). Once you're hired and working, they're thrilled.
It's bad. Just keep talking to anyone and everyone who might turn up a lead. Good luck.
Of course by the time you retire.... (Score:5, Funny)
Why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
My grandfather is 90. He is in perfect mental and physical health, and "officially" worked as an attorney until a few years ago. He still occasionally takes depositions and adjudicates some lesser disputes.
Aside from the fact that that side of the family has a history of longevity, I believe that the two reasons why he kept going were (a) he didn't feel like quitting, because he enjoyed his job, and (b) he worked in a field (partner in a mid-sized law firm) where nobody could dictate to him when to retire. His expertise grew over time.
In Europe, a lot of societies which have historically cherished the idea of retirement at age 65 with a generous pension are starting to re-think this concept, primarily because the pension funds simply won't be able to keep up with the glut of baby boomers retiring soon, but also because peoples' attitude towards work is changing.
Lack of job security nowadays means that, while you may show professionalism towards an employer, you do not display the traditional "loyalty for life". As I can tell, it is in the nature of companies to act in a manner they perceive to be economically rational (regardless of whether it is or not)--this takes precedence over keeping old Smithers but-he's-only-got-2-years-to-go-until-retirement around at all costs. Concurrently, people are discovering that they are far more mobile in the labor market, recession or not, than they once were, and employers generally seem to recognize that fact.
Especially in IT, where actual hands-on know-how may become obsolescent fairly quickly, but experience in how to manage that know-how (project management, design, business-side consulting, etc.) grows over time. I can imagine that we will see an increase in the number of over-40 employees going part-time consultant, and simply not quitting at 65. I don't know about you, but I love my line of work, and can't really imagine just stopping dead in my tracks one day to go play shuffleboard with a bunch of walking corpses.
So a classical "employment-until-pension"? No. A "job for life"? Definitely. I don't know about you, but I would love to still be a part-time IT consultant when I'm 70.
Benefits (Score:3, Funny)
Overseas Outsourcing Destroying Domestic IT Jobs? (Score:3, Interesting)
People have talked about this a lot recently, on Slashdot, in the news, and around my office. But I think people really underestimate the importance of having the developers around so they can be brought into meetings and have face-to-face meetings. When developers feel their responsibility every day, they gets projects done faster and at higher quality. As a developer, I better see the importance of my work by going to more meetings and interacting more with our clients. However, if I was reporting from around the world, I wouldn't feel the same way.
In fact, at my work we're actually bringing lots of QE in from India because we want them working extra hard helping our American-based developers. There's no way real development by American companies will move offshore.
Re:Overseas Outsourcing Destroying Domestic IT Job (Score:5, Interesting)
Meanwhile, those of us still doing development are watching in horror as we receive awful newbie-grade code from these off-shore super-genuises, projects slip as communications fail (verbal and connectivity-wise) or the foreigners simply go missing for hours or days at a time, delivery dates come and go and the apps still don't work right -- the stories go on and on.
Now, this isn't a simple case of us having just chosen the wrong company to contract with. As I noted above, we're an enormous company (Fortune 50). We have contracts with many companies in India, and in some cases contracts with American companies who employ off-shore resources in turn. So far, I haven't been able to dig up any success stories. I have been personally involved with (although thankfully not responsible for) quite a few ridiculous failures -- none of which would have occurred if we hadn't been chasing this magical off-shore solution. However, the trend will continue in big companies because middle management has no choice but to show (and therefore report) success, and upper management has no connection with what's really going on day-to-day which means they only rely on the falsely-rosy middle managers' reports.
I should point out that nothing I said about our experiences with the off-shore effort was even a little bit exagerated, either. I have personally been involved in these problems for the last seven or eight months. Here are a few examples I've seen in just the past 45 days or so:
Again, those examples all involve completely different off-shore contracting comapies, unrelated projects, and very different skillsets and responsibilities -- yet they are all characteristic of every report I've heard from co-workers and colleagues at large companies who are enduring this fabulous new technique for managing the bottom line, and similar examples are not hard to find if you go digging around on-line.
In a nutshell, so far it appears the only positive stories come from managers, and they mostly appear to focus on up-front costs -- not quality, or long-term costs. (And in a company this big, believe me, even the worst little application can have a lifespan measured in many years.)
I'll say this much -- it makes me miss working for smaller companies. Sure the pay wasn't as good, and the risk was greater, but at least mid- to small-sized companies simply don't have the option of sustaining the massive waste of exercises like the great off-shore push.
Now before somebody goes and labels me racist or a nationalist or jingoistic or whatever thesaurus.com spits out next, please understand I don't blame these off-shore guys in the least. If I could live on a few bucks a day (I read recently that the average programmer in India makes about $12K) I'd be undercutting the big boys too, and my skillsets be damned -- at that point I'm competing purely on price, and even the shittiest hack-job code still has a chance of running right; certainly business managers aren't going to review it. But so far, in my experience and in the considerable experience of many people I know, the basic quality and skills are sorely lacking, and success stories are few and far between. This is my opinion based on real experience. If my experiences change (and by god I hope it does, given the way our current project is spinning out of control and requiring the stereotypical "heroic efforts" of our now-scorned American programmers) then I'll gladly sit back and agree with the Wisdom of Management. But I've just seen too much failure to deliver in the Great Off-Shore Push, so far.
Lifetime career? HA! (Score:5, Interesting)
Thanks, I'll take a pass on IT as a career. In many ways, I'm glad that I came down with MS *before* I got RIFfed, as it has allowed me the time to realize that my "career" had cost me my health, my social life, and one of the things that I enjoyed most - the joy of crafting a well-thought-out and well-executed program with my own two hands.
Pension? Get real! To get that, you have to stay in one company for ages. Fat chance of that, with companies dropping like flies all the time.
No, you might actually be better off if you skipped school, and stuck with your "You want fries with that?" menial job. At least you'd have some semblance of a life with that, and after paying off the student loan that allowed you to join the exciting and fast-paced world of IT, I'm not so sure that you wouldn't actually be ahead financially, too.
No market for it (Score:4, Funny)
As good as any other field.....STUPID (Score:5, Insightful)
Sales Managers, Marketing Employees, Graphic Designers, Gophers, PC Technicians, programmers, and Administrators were layed off.
Some of the Marketing people I know that were layed off had been with the company for over 15 years. You can be layed off or fired in any field - it doesn't matter. As long as your smart, have a plan, and quite a bit of luck - you can get your way through anything (almost).
45% to be unemployed in 2 to 5 years (Score:5, Informative)
Maybe the analysts are wrong, but do you want to bet your career on it?
The warning signs are out there.
The article actually says... (Score:5, Interesting)
Love it or leave it (Score:5, Insightful)
Since 1987 I've endured thankless all-nighters and many wasted weekends to satify the insane schedules of inexperienced project managers. I've also had the crushing responsibility that comes with installing and supporting systems that multi-billion dollar companies rely on. I've been shit on as a consultant and exhalted as a savior and treated like a hero. I have experienced a full-spectrum of environments. I am now 35 years old.
But the one thing that has been consistent thoughout this whole time is this: I love what I do. Maddening at times - yes. Mundane - yep. But almost always interresting. If you dont have passion for technology, you wont last.
"You have to keep yourself trained even if management will not pay for it," says Edward Pilling, who participated in the discussion. "You have to have one critical skill set that is in need."
This is what I mean. Learn the new technology. Stay current and informed. Read Slashdot (mod me up now). Take classes. But most of all, stick your nose into it, roll up your sleeves and get your hands dirty. If you are going to get up each day and drag your ass into work, you might as well enjoy your workload. Sure, most IT jobs pay well, but if you hate computers it will show and you wont survive the influx of new grads and you will fall to the side of the road while the fast pace of technology marches on without you. If you love it, you wont be able to get enough of it, and you will succeed.
I will (Score:4, Insightful)
1. Longevity. Not many universities go out of business.
2. Job security. You may be reassigned to departments you don't like, but it's pretty damned hard to get fired.
3. Growth. Constant opportunity to do different things. I can get tired of IT completely, and switch to another field entirely, without losing any time on retirement.
Absolutely YES, thanks to OSS (Score:3, Interesting)
People.. one word: INVEST. (Score:5, Interesting)
If you want to work in IT and you want to be able to retire you need to look into:
- Building up retirement funds in a 401(k).
This is tax deferred income and if your employer matches you contribute to the MAXIMUM percentage that your employer matches on. Just keep in mind NEVER EVER EVER touch that money (unless you're retiring, or need to buy a house). Basically pretend the money disappeared and you have no idea where it went.
- MANAGE your 401(k).
Watch those investments! Make sure that where your money is invested is continuing to grow and perform. If it isn't, the contact the company holding your 401(k) funds and move it into investments within the program that *are* performing.
- When changing employers roll the 401(k) into the new employer's plan (if it's a good plan with varied investments).
- Investing in land.
This is a tax shelter while you're working (since interest in a mortgage is deductible) and land always appreciates in value over time (even in Arizona <g>). When you retire you can sell the land and if you're over 59 you can skip paying the taxes (this is a one-time benefit). And if you invest in land by buying a home and you live in the home for 2 of the last 5 years, you can keep the gains from the sale of the house *tax free* up to 250k (500k if you're married). Go put that into some IRA's and life will be gooood come retirement age.
But if you think that pensions and social security are going to get you by in your later years, forget it. The only one taking care of you will be YOU. And the sooner you get started the better. GWB just said that most people age 50 are not anywhere *close* to being in a financial position (investments, pensions, whatever) and that's a real problem.
Full Circle (Score:5, Interesting)
The days of working for a company for 30 years and retiring with full pensions are gone. Companies I see rarely offer pensions and more often than not you hear tales of them raiding pension funds anyway. At least with a 401K our money is out of their hands.
As an IT person(web primarily), I spend a lot of my personal time researching and learning new and different technologies. Partially because I have to, but mostly because I love to play with things on my LAN just to see how they work. Will I be doing the exact same thing 10 years from now as I am today? I hope not!
The IT field moves fast, as an IT person it is important to me in a job that the employer is willing to 1. Train me in additional skills and 2. Allow me to freedom to implement them however is best. If they can't offer that, then it's time to find one who will. Or freelance with someone who will.
Yes, times are dark now for the IT field. Things in the DotCom Craze swung so much out of control and the pendulum was bound to swing to the other extreme. God willing, things will balance out. Some great people have been hurt in the downturn in the IT field, but then again a lot have been flush out who had no business there to begin with!
Same as a musician (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Same as a musician (Score:3, Insightful)
Probably not. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm one of those people who have had several "careers" during his career, and until the current economic downturn I was able to slide where the work was. I started in embedded programming, moved to technical writing, managed a QA group, built and ran a couple of testing labs, got into the software publishing business, and right now I'm a product maintenance and tech support specialist and part-time security guard (two jobs).
My choice? Not really. Companies kept dying on me, and I would have to move on. [This is nothing unusual when you are at the "bleeding edge" of a field -- I've heard the refrain time and time again as friends/colleagues tell about their experiences, "...and then IT died!"] In most cases, I was able to recognize the leading indicators of impending job expiration and "jump ship" before the blow landed. (In one case, Black Friday happened three weeks after I left a company; management there got sticky about recognizing my contributions...and the reason was that the parent company was dropping the axe on the subsidiary and didn't want to bother.)
In spite of all this, I have received exactly one unemployment check, and that because I didn't act quickly enough before being pink-slipped by a company positioning itself to be purchased -- and the company suffered a near-death experience only to rise Phoenix-like in the UK a few years later -- but not with me anywhere near it.
Unlike a number of my colleagues, I didn't job-hop per se; I tended to stay as long as the company, or project, stayed alive.
One bad effect: the deaths of so many of the companies I worked for left me with no pension, none at all. This was before the days of IRAs and other instruments of retirement benefits that follow the employee even with the demise of the company that offered them. Because I followed the call of the job and not of money, the coffers are not exactly bulging at the moment. Indeed, when you strike the side of the money tank, the ring lasts for a long, long time...
Today, I'm told I'm too old. Oh, no one wants an age discrimination suit, so they don't say it right out loud, but I get the message anyway. So I continue to chase the crumbs and send in resumes, waiting for the day that I have to auction everything off and try a nomadic lifestyle.
Retirement? I don't think so.
Can one find a lifetime career in IT? Don't bet on it.
Data point: this reader retired (Score:3, Insightful)
To me it is humorous, but also sad, seeing the folks on this forum worry and bemone their futures. While at the same time railing against the Evil Corporation and spouting from the hill tops about the glory of freeware.
Lifetime career in any field? (Score:4, Interesting)
Think about it. The MBA programs of 1000 universities are churning out cute little guys in suits whose ticket to the good life is figuring out how to squeeze out enough "new" money to justify their own million-dollar salary. Did you think benefits and pensions would escape their notice?
Getting up into management is one solution, but my feeling was it meant giving up the work I love (nerdy work) to do work I hate. Being so doggone good they don't want to lose you is one solution, that's the one that we all hope we can use. Some of us will succeed there and some...will not.
Sorry, just my grumpy $.02.
have to lower our costs (Score:3, Insightful)
IT is an easy costs target for two reasons:
1) corporations can't measure IT quality, so might as well get the lowest cost
2) the lawyer types who run government-industrial complex never liked geeks in the first place. They're the guys they made fun of in high school.
So corporate chieftans love sending IT work to the lowest cost corners of the planet. To rub some salt in the wound, they even import cheap pieces of the planet to take jobs in America (H1-B).
So as geeks, we have to lower what we charge corporations in order to stay competitive. But that's awfully hard to do when our input costs (like healthcare and housing) are growing at double digit rates.
So the only logical thing for us to do is export ourselves to the 3rd world in order to lower our costs and stay competitive.
Does anyone know if India or Australia will grant work Visas to Americans?
Hell, yes! (Score:5, Interesting)
I started out in Cobol, moved to Fortran and PL/I, and then Turbo Pascal and GW Basic. When I became a consultant, I had to learn C, csh, Borne shell, C++, Java, Perl, JavaScript, SQL, PHP, and VBscript. I've done some stuff that sounds pretty interesting in retrospect, although it didn't always seem that way at the time. (Imagine programing on a PC/AT at midnight in the middle of winter in Wyoming in a building where the sole source of heat is your PC and a single 100 watt light blub overhead!)
One way or the other, yes (Score:5, Interesting)
He had gone from radio repair, to manager at a major defense contractor (fighter jets), to nuclear power plant design. After retiring from the 'regular' job, he went into teaching programming classes at a local computer chain.
An "IT" job does not necessarily mean coding day after day for 40 years. Explore the various segments of the field. As you age, you'll find you some things better than others.
As long as I'm breathing, I'm going to be doing something.
I love this! (Score:4, Funny)
1) Bring in lots of suckers out for the $$
2) Purge them with the bad economy
3) Post stuff all over the web about how terrible the IT field is so no one new enters.
4) Profit!!!!
Journalism is Dying! (Score:3, Funny)
Career and Pension in IT (Score:3, Insightful)
With the average engineer position lasting 3.5 years, pensions don't exist and I do not think the IT career is any different.
If you like what you do and make enough to eat and buy a few things as you do it, any career is successful.
Retirement planning should be done by everyone as soon as their career starts. I was unfortunate to get caught between the pensions that disappeared if you did not stay 5 years, and the 401k/IRAs that you were not allowed to have if you were on a pension plan.
If you can't do a 401K, do the IRA's and do it young! Then you will be able to retire if you want to stop working.
Lifetime? Easy. (Score:4, Insightful)
And the legal tax breaks will make you drooooool. :)
Yeah, it *IS* that easy. I know. It's what I did after 4 years of Java programming for idiot managers on Wall St who didn't know Swing (the API) from Sting(the Singer). Trust me... with a Palm pilot, a cell phone, and a bit of SELLING, you can do ANYTHING. Lifetime career in IT? Easy, if you work for yourself.
Good luck! :)
Some of us will, but I can tell you who won't (Score:5, Insightful)
The people that won't be in this for the long haul are those that were told, "Hey, get into that IT thing. You can make a ton of cash and play games all day."
Those that got into IT because it was the "place to be" will vaporize into whatever the next "place to be" is.
To me, this means that I won't have to listen to people bitching about how they took a desktop job and don't get to work on any servers. I won't have to hear, "I worked on this, that, and the other thing" and the words 'but you don't know what cut and awk do' ring in my head.
Sorry, I'm venting because these are the folks that are kicking and screaming to stay in IT, but they don't really belong in IT and the "next big thing" isn't here yet for them to hop to. There are many good IT folks out of work today, and these whining people need to make room.
Possible ? (Score:5, Funny)
Yes, here are a few ways you can make it happen right now.
1. Take an electric cable and fit a plug on one end. Put the plug into an electric socket. Hold the other ends of two wires in your hands. Switch on the power supply and you can see Lifetime IT career reaching you soon at electric speed.
2. Take your server machine to the topmost floor. Tell your assistant to put down the server in five minutes. Go down to the ground floor and stand right below the server. Within five minutes, you can achieve lifetime IT career falling into you.
3. Disassemble all the parts of your computer. Eat the parts in the following order. Processor, RAM, Video Card, Audio Card, Motherboard. This method is so special that you can get rid of your hunger at the same time you acheive lifetime IT career. wow !
That's all for the trial version. For full version of advice, please register at http://lifetimeITcareers.gotse.cx. Hope you enjoyed our tips. We wish you good luck !
Do more than program (Score:3, Insightful)
If you want to have longevity in the IT field, learn how to solve problems first, then how to do it in software.
I don't have any worries, myself, because there will always be a place for people who can cut to the core of a problem and have insights into the key issues, in a broad range of fields.
Actually coding up the solution, though, is a S.M.O.P [reference.com].
I don't think I'll be a lifer (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm 33, have an M.S. in computer science, and got my first paying job in software development in 1990. While I expect I'll always be playing around with computers, I doubt that it will be my primary employment in the long-term.
Partly this is because of my growing frustration with the universality of poor management; partly it's because of the ceiling I see for techies who don't want to become managers; partly it's the threat of jobs moving overseas.
I'm a second generation programmer. My father started programming in the late 60s. He had a pretty good career going (a few rough times, but all in all pretty darn good for someone without a college degree) until about a year and a half ago. When the downturn hit, he found that no one was interested in hiring a 58 year old programmer/analyst. (What percentage of coders, designers, and analysts at your shop are over 50?) He's finally just about given up on getting back into the field, and gone on to take real estase classes, just passed his licening exam.
I've decided not to wait, but start laying the groundwork for a second career now. I've cut my day job back to 30 hours/week and will be starting classes in Shiatsu in a month. No rapidly changing skill set in massage and acupressure....
I hope that in five or ten years, I'll have my own bodywork practice, and do some computer consulting on the side.
It gets tougher every year (Score:5, Insightful)
going as a geek,but it gets tougher every year.
Technology companies have this inherent need to plan projects for the
earliest possible completion.
It's _always_ a race to market.
There's _always_ schedule pressure.
When you're 22 or 25 and just out of school, single and with few
responsibilities, "challenging" projects are fun, in that masochistic
geek way that we'reall so familiar with. Possibilities are exciting;
obstacles exist to be overcome. You're gaining mastery.
You *know* that you can bring in on time if onlyyou work nights and weekends
for nine months or so. Maybe a year
So you work insanely hard for three years, maybe five, and the company "appreciates" it. And eventually that company goes under, or closes your
division, or something, and you move on. (Those options? Never were worth
very much, and you never sold any of them anyway.)
Then you're 37 and have young kids and a spouse who works.
Your manager comes to you with a right-to-left project plan that you _know_
will require nights and weekends. Again. And you sigh, and sign up, and do
the work -- it's familiar, you know the right way to do stuff, you know the
problems and what the solutions cost, you know the tradeoffs.
You do it, but it costs you -- you have to miss your kid's school talent show,
you're not home nights, you have to work the week you had planned to take the
family to the beach. Your spouse resents the hours, but they've promised you a
sabbatical after only five years, and you've got lots of stock options.
Somewhere along the line you try management, and parts of it are OK,
and parts of it you're real good at, but it's tiresome to work at such a high
level of abstraction, where there's no right answers, only "issues". And it's
soul-killing to watch your boss, and his boss, try to avoid understanding
inconvenient facts. At some point you know, you _insist_ that the plan under
discussion is unrealistic, because it is. You're not a team player.
Your review is painful, for the first time ever.
Back to engineering.
You work hard for a year, and they cancel the project.
You work *really* hard on the next, critical, save-the-company project --
and they cancel that one too. You go to meetings for three weeks trying to
define another product, and then that company folds. Your options are again
worthless. The company stock you bought through the ESPP is worthless.
You're burnt out emotionally, and your health could be better -
a dozen years of sitting in a cubicle typing under fluorescents
has taken its toll.
You resolve never again to sacrifice family life and emotional health in favor
of working too hard. You limit your hours,never come in on weekends any more.
You won't sign up for plans that demand sixty hour weeks -- but most of your
co-workers are youngsters just out of school, and eat that stuff up. You look
unmotivated and cynical by comparison -- in fact, you _are_ unmotivated and
cynical. It's great doing stuff with your own kids for a couple years (but
they're teenagers now, and don't have much time for you), but your reviews
aren't much fun. They hand out options and you get damn few. You stop getting
raises.
Then that company folds, and you're forty-nine years old, looking for another gig
in a downturn. The companies that need you are looking for someone to come in
and work _really_ _hard_ to save a project that's fallen behind schedule
but you could pull it off, with only
nine months or so of working nights and weekends.
Maybe a year
----
All you young guys should read Tracy Kidder's excellent
_The_Soul_Of_A_New_Machine_. Maybe read it twice.
Not exactly,,,, (Score:3, Funny)
avoid the typical approach (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm primarily a programmer, and I have picked up a number of technologies, since no platform lasts forever, or always has work available. I don't play the "platform politics" game - currently I'm doing
I focus on architecture. I focus on networking - I'm on the board of a local user group (DFW ColdFusion Users Group). This keeps my name in the community. I focus on business processes that drive the software I build - so far, I've picked up in-depth knowledge of the airline, health care, and financial markets, among others.
The bottom line - don't sit around letting yourself be influenced by the market; create your own market. Always remember that no how good you can write stored procedures or killer C API's, your just another code monkey - find a way to make yourself more than a coder, and you become a solutions provider that customers keep coming back to.
3rd generation (Score:4, Interesting)
My uncle got into computers before I was born. Retired and freelancing.
I've been at this since I was a teenager. Every project/process I have used has long since gone away and been replaced by something more complex. The amount of available work has grown exponentially throughout.
What'll I be doing in 20 years? Retiring... and by that I mean shifting to part-time and being selective about the projects I do.
Do I think the specific work type I'll be doing will change? Yeah. Appreciably? Nah. I'll be teaching things how to do stuff. It might be computers, it might be lightwave-based tools, and it might be little microbes. Assembling logic-based tools is what I like, regardless of what the tool looks like. I/T, to me, is the epitome of wise laziness... rather than doing it all myself, I spend all day inventing ways to automate tasks.
-- advaitavedanta
I retire in four years... (Score:4, Insightful)
What also helps is I haven't let myself get too set in my ways. We've been through a lot of changes where I work.
First, it was Z80 assembler coding on Xerox 820 computers hooked to some ancient twisted-pair 307.2Kbps network. I wrote an OS for it. It ran until 1989.
Then in 1988 we got a Prime minicomputer and 386-based AT&T Unix system. I had to learn configure that Unix box having never touched vi before, had to figure out Primos and their gawd-awful ed program, and then taught myself C. Made sure all above ran TCP/IP so we could one day connect to public Internet, even though everyone else wanted X.25. In 1992 we connected.
In 1993 threw that all out and bought a Data General Aviion box running dg/ux and a nifty 20-slot RAID array system. Shortly after that I pushed a web server in my company and got them up with that. Chose to learn Perl, quickly preferred that over C.
In 1999 threw it all out and got a new fangled Storage Area Network with a rack of cheap (relatively) servers. An entire new technology to learn.
During above time I also became very proficient in Windows Systems administration, and currently manage a 50/50 mix of Windows under Active Directory for 13,000 user and Linux boxes.
I'm 43, I'm going to retire in 4 years with a pension and health insurance for life. At that time, I'll do riskier self-employment scene since the pay is better (if you can get the work) but the pension check will pay the bills during dry times. I've already purchased a server at johncompanies.com and have two paying clients and am working on more with goal to build it up until I retire and move to that stuff full-time.
Another opportunity is to teach. I taught part-time at a community college from 1984 to 1994 and enjoyed it. I also know, beings that I work for one in IT, that good teachers are hard for these places to find.
IBM (Score:3, Funny)
So to answer the question, If you work at IBM you have a career at IBM.
Back-end supply will be dropping... (Score:3, Insightful)
And come on, I'm sure we all have known a lot of wannabe coders who got jobs making insane bucks a few years ago and we couldn't figure out how they did it. Well, they are all dropping out of the field too. Companies hired a lot of people because they were desperate a few years ago, a lot of marginal or really suckass personnel. If Bush stops scaring the shit out of consumers and businesses and things settle down and this country gets back to business, they will start hiring again and people with true skills this time will succeed because there will be less of us. Only the real talented ones will be left.
(At least this is what I keep telling myself so I feel better...)
How to have a lifetime in IT (the ONLY way): (Score:3, Interesting)
Second, avoid accepting any debt at all. Don't build up huge student loans (trust me, I know, I'm paying one off right now), don't abuse your credit cards, don't buy expensive cars or other consumer crapola. Debt is the modern analog of indentured servitude. Why do you NEED a 100K IT job? To cover your expenses. Lower your expenses, and you don't need that job! Cut all your fixed expenses, especially debts. Live somewhere relatively inexpensive, buy a used car, get your computer equipment on ebay... Get an apartment instead of a house. Eat out less. And so on.
Look for a job where you have reasonable hours and no noncompetes or IP agreements to sign. Make enough to cover your expenses, and program for open source projects, contributing to the community. Make it FUN again. Instead of putting in that sixty or seventy hour week in IT for a bunch of asshole suits who don't care if you live or die, move out to the country, take a forty hour week maintaining the computer system of the county courthouse, and spend your free time out at the lake with a friendly, perverse woman (or, if you're like me and lean towards celibacy, get a tan). You'll be happier. You'll live longer. You won't age as quickly, and you won't be as heavy because you'll have time to cook real food instead of the vending machine crap you live on right now.
If you want to continue to work in IT until you retire, and then get a retirement, all you have to do is get a civil service job. The pay isn't as high, but the benefits are spectacular. The people are nicer, the hours are shorter, the job is more fun... I could go on but you get the idea.
I make in the high forties, I work only 37 1/2 hours a week, and I have benefits you corporate guys can only dream of. Plus, MY retirement is going to be almost at full pay (I've already done the numbers).
Think about what I'm saying. What do you really owe these corporate assholes, anyway? What have they ever done for you? Get a state or county job in civil service. Work for your neighbors instead of some asshole corporation. Help your community, not some greedy fat-cat in a Mercedes.
Seriously.
quite likely (Score:3, Interesting)
I have been a unix admin for 10 years, but have been playing with perl, cgi, apache, mysql, and linux for most of that time also, knowing that someday I may have to rely on one or more of them.
keeping a broad scope is absolutely necessary, but not so broad that you master nothing.
Re:not likely (Score:3, Insightful)
If you find your nitch, then it is very possible. Remember, what might not be a match for you is perfect for someone somewhere.
RonB
Re:Life long is right! (Score:4, Insightful)
"Pension"? What's that? "Benefits"? What are those? Oh, right, those things that some floozy from Human Resources at FooCorp says FooCorp will provide for me 40 years from now. As if anyone thinks FooCorp will still exist in 10 years, let alone 40.
I expect and intend to live on my savings and investments, because those are the only assets I can trust. When it's a dollar figure in your account - whether it be a tax-deferred vehicle like an IRA, Roth, or 401(k), or whether it be your taxable savings or brokerage account, it's your property, and only your government can take it away. (And if we get to the point of a wealth tax gets put in place, the economy'll be so fucked by capital flight that it won't matter.)
Now, do I expect to retire with a "pension and benefits"? Hell, no. But I don't want a pension or benefits - because I don't trust the companies (...or governments! At least you can choose to work for employers that do 401(k)s instead of pensions, but try opting out of your government's pyramid scheme!) to make good on the implied promises. And why should they make good on such promises - it's not like there's any way to hold them accountable when they renege.
But that said, do I expect to retire with a high standard of living after a long and successful career in IT? Absolutely.
And I'm not convinced my career will have to be that long, either. In fact, if I'm still working at 65, it'll be because I fucked up bigtime somewhere along the line.
Anyone can cut down on unnecessary expenses, eliminate debt, and maintain positive cash flow over most of their working lives. Do that, and your career doesn't have to be "long" to afford you a decent standard of living.
Got it all taken care of, huh? (Score:3, Interesting)
One of the differences I've always noted between Latin America and the US, is that in Latin America people build and rely on relationships with other people, especially family. In the US, there's an ongoing illusion that you can trust money - that money is secure and will take care of you and all you have to do is make more of it. Countries that have experienced hyperinflation somewhere along the line know better than to trust money more than people.
Re:Got it all taken care of, huh? (Score:5, Interesting)
Precisely why I included the phrase "only your government can take it away" when referring to dollars in your own personal accounts. I originally wrote "where nobody can take it away" until I remembered that guys with guns can always take your stuff.
I pointed out a wealth tax as one way in which wealth could be destroyed, but hyperinflation is another.
The key is to watch, anticipate, and adjust accordingly. Does the value of a house drop in a hyperinflationary environment? No - it stays flat. If you anticipate hyperinflation, sell paper assets (stocks/bonds), get rid of paper liabilities (rent) and buy hard assets (houses, gold, jewelry).
The trick is doing it before capital controls get implemented by the guys with the guns. My original point - that if we get to this point, we're all fux0r3d anyways - still stands. And while it can happen here, I think it's exceedingly unlikely, even if the upcoming war doesn't go our way.
Do I have it all taken care of? Hell, no. I still have to save diligently and invest prudently, and that's a non-trivial task, particularly over a 20-year timeframe. Do I have enough of it taken care of that I think I'll be able to at least survive most economic scenarios? Yeah, I think I do. My point wasn't (and isn't!) to brag, but to point out that I don't think I'm doing anything special that can't be done by anyone else.
By way of analogy - geeks often say things like "There's nothing magical about computers" to nontechnical people. For those geeks to whom the world of money seems daunting, I was just pointing out that there's nothing magical about sound financial planning either.
Re:Retirement??? (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, thats what we need (Score:3, Insightful)
Why don't you study something usefull instaid?