Do Scripters Suffer Discrimination?

TheTheologian writes "In his InfoWorld column, Chad Dickerson says 'there is a level of quiet discomfort between the "scripting" versus "programming" factions in some corporate development environments in which I have participated. In some instances, executive-level technology management has held scripting languages in disdain as not being "real" languages for day-to-day problem solving, which has discouraged highly talented scripters on staff from practicing their craft. In such an environment, scripters are relegated to the lower ranks ... ' He goes on to say that some companies will assign Java and C++ programmers tasks that take them weeks but could be done by Perl or Python programmers in a few hours. Is it true that some companies are so overcome with code bias they'd assign weeks of unnecessary work rather than give it to the scripting untouchables?"

Flip side

[sulli]

Is it true that some companies [osdn.com] are so overcome with script [slashdot.org] bias that they'd assign years [slashcode.com] of unnecessary work rather than give it to the coding [sun.com] untouchables?"

All in how you say it.

[grub]

"I am good at scripting." == lame.
"ph34r my l337 skr197x0r sk1llz, f44g0rz." == cool.

Not Quite

[LPetrazickis]

Script kiddies, by definition, do not write their own scripts.:)

There are no scripters.

[SuiteSisterMary]

There's no such thing as a 'scripter;' there are merely those who use just-in-time or per-execution compilers.

Does the end user know the difference?

[aardwolf204]

10 Echo Starting Application
20 system "start iexplore -k http://localhost/index.php"
30 goto 10
40 profit

Re:Depends...

[DrinkDr.Pepper]

In my environment, we use whatever solution works worst. If it is a simple script, we do it as if it is a complex program. If it requies a complex program we do it as a simple script. We do it!

Re:Solution

[tomhudson]

So, write it as a script, put it in a crontab, and make a VC UI that just fetches a "results page" of text and shows it to the end user whenever he/she/it hits the "refresh" button. Pretend you're working on it for the next two weeks, and spend the time you save doing something useful, like reading '., downloading pr0n/mp3/movies/whatever :-)

Re:PSST

[ruriruri]

Machine code needs no middleman interpreter or compiler to run.

Except for the hardware "interpreter" running those codes on your motherboard. Wheels within wheels, man.

Re:Does the end user know the difference?

[Ageless]

Was the fact that this program never produces profit a mistake, or very clever? :)

Re:Mountains and molehills..

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone who claims that one programming language is superior for all and any purpose is obviously incompetent to make such decisions.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Java is in fact superior for all purposes. Good safety, awesome performance, beautiful API's... good stuff.

That is all.

Equal Opportunity?

[buckhead_buddy]

If you work for a college (especially one with a high number of foreign students) you might be able to seek recourse if "language" has been added to one of the non-discrimination criteria in the Equal Opportunity policy.

Just hope you get a geek judge who sees no difference between human and computer languages :-)

Re:Does the end user know the difference?

[Spunk]

Warning: profit unreachable.

How true :)

coding is coding

[teasea]

Programming is programming; solving problems is solving problems.
And that's the truth.

<testosterone>Say, let's all code in machine language; that's a real language.</testosterone>

Re:scripting not the problem

[Deacon Jones]

But I think it gets a bad wrap

Hey, shouldn't that be "it gets a bad wrapper?"

hahahahah.

Allrighty then, I'm sorry.

Do Scripters Suffer Discrimination?

[artemis67]

I'm not sure, but in my building, there are three bathrooms -- Men, Women, and Scripters.

Re:PHP scripting/coding/whatever

[Reality Master 101]

Just tell him that both PHP and Java are both interpreted languages, and thus are "morally" equivalent. Only languages compiled into assembly are worthy of being considered "real" programming. :)

It just astounds me that anyone can be snobby about Java. I mean, it's not a terrible language, but...

What is the difference?

[Superfreaker]

I use VB SCript in my ASP development- am I not a programmer? I thought I was. That's what I told my Mom I was. She'll be so disappointed.

That means I'll have to chnage my business cards :-(

Seriously, what is the difference? Depth of the manguage? I don't know.

Re:Legitimate concern

[Guppy06]

"Most scripting languages are designed around letting small problems be implemented quickly."

Isn't that the core philosophy of Microsoft's Windows Update service?

This is why I use VB and ASP.

[BoomerSooner]

One language, one platform, one big piece of shit.

Nevermind I just forgot my point...

Gol dang weenies

[Anonymous Coward]

back in my day we didn't use nothing but assembly language-up hill both ways-in the snow.

Re:Flip side

[0x20]

Yeah. Better yet, if you don't actually hand-craft each of the electrical impulses for the CPU, in order, one by one, with a tiny hand-powered generator, you are not a real programmer.

What kind of logic is it that makes people think that invoking a compiler on their textfiles is the step that turns them into "real" programmers?

gcc file.c
woo, i'm a programmer!
perl -e file.pl
doh, i'm not a programmer.
gcc file.c
woo, i'm a programmer!
perl -e file.pl
doh, i'm not a programmer.

I'm curious

[Cyno]

When was the last time you saw a manager reading code?

Re:PHP scripting/coding/whatever

[mentin]

Only languages compiled into assembly are worthy of being considered "real" programming. :)

You are too tolerate. Only ASM itself is real programming. Everything else is a joke, no matter how it gets to ASM, via compiler or JIT-compiler.

Re:Flip side

[repetty]

"If it ain't compiled into assembly language, it ain't real programming."

Interesting definition. My distinction has always been that if I can fuck up memory, then I'm programming. Otherwise I'm scripting.

--Richard

Re:Mountains and molehills.. (Python apologia)

[parliboy]

it doesn't matter that e.g. Python would only take 10 lines and is easier to read, if there is only one person at the company who knows Python, and the other 30 developers only know C/C++/Java.

If those 30 developers can't decipher all of 10 lines of python (or any language) it's time to get some new developers.

Re:Wrong Person, Not Language

[2names]

I happen to work in a place where the Powers that Be are absolutely 100% clue-free when it comes to technology. Unfortunately, that same bunch of technical morons truly believe that they know IT. I'm not kidding. They will look you in the eye and lie. They will nod and act like they understand what you are saying when they don't even know what planet your words came from. I.E.,

Me: "You do know that roaming profiles and node-locked access are mutually exclusive, right?"
IT Director: "No they aren't."
Me: "Yes, they are. If you want people to be able to log in to any machine and get their same environment, you can't lock down their access to those machines."
IT Director: "Yes we can, we'll use Active Directory."

Me: "Have you tried pinging it using the machine's FQDN?"
Network Manager: "What's that?"
Me: "The Fully Qualified Domain Name."
Network Manager: "You mean the IP Address?"

Me: "You understand that a firewall is only as good as the knowledge of routing the Firewall Admin has, right?"
Network Manager and IT Director(in unison): "We're not talking about routing! We are talking about the firewall!!"

And the big Twinkie of all time:

IT Director: "You can talk about your 1's and Zero's and theory all you want, but that doesn't explain to me why DNS worked this morning and it doesn't work now!"
Me: "It is because your PC's were NEVER using DNS, they were using WINS, and the WINS server is DOWN."
IT Director: "If we were never using DNS, then how did we get to other machines by typing the names in?"
Me: "Because as I said before, the machines were using WINS."
IT Director: "You can't tell me that ALL these machines were set up WRONG!"
Me: "I'm not telling you that ALL these machines were set up wrong. Just about half of them were."

These are the kinds of people who are making decisions...

These are exactly the kinds of people who would make a programmer use Fortran simply because they heard Fortran was a powerful language. Nevermind that the project is a web based HR database...

These are the same kinds of people who would say, "Don't use Perl. Perl isn't standardized. Use Java instead."

[insert diety name] help us programmers/scripters.

Re:Yes

[masq]

What tool you use is just as pointless of a reason to express bigotry as the color of one's skin or one's gender is.

Actually, I have no problem with black people, gays, or Moslems.

AS LONG AS THEY **ONLY** CODE IN ANSI C

Oh please

[autopr0n]

If you didn't lay out the tranistors yourself, you didn't do shit!

Re:PHP scripting/coding/whatever

[AndrewRUK]

Power switch?
Luxury!
I 'ave to peddle my exercise bike connected to a generator to drive the STM, while I spin the disk platters with my 'ands.
</monty python>

And yes, someone [rinky-dink.org] really has made a peddle-powered generator

God is in the chip tracings

[theCat]

It seems like the deeper you have to go to get something to work the more immaculate you are. Like everyone is hovering somewhere above laying down silicon, the further away from tracings and transistors the less holy.

In this regard machine language programmers spank assembly coders, who spank compiler builders, who spank those who use compiled lanagues, who in turn spank scripters, who would spank spreadsheet macro writers if those people ever came to the party. Of course everyone is aiming at getting particular patterns of electrical potentials established across specific etched wires and via arrays of transistor gates. But some of us are closer to God and everyone knows it.

I figure it is just like any other religion. Closest to God are the self-flagellators, ascetics and grazers, those who abuse the flesh and the mind in order to get to the bare naked truth of God. They would dream in machine code but speak not a word anyone could understand, just mumble. Then the mendicant monks and wild holy men, clinging at the gates of the city, begging alms, pitifully beseeching to God; assemblers. Less mentally scattered beggers with pens would write very terse, almost insane ramblings about how the world is actually made, their searing visions what we would call compilers. Those who would actually take those insane ramblings and teach them as a path to truth? They use languages that rely on the compilers and most people would call them preachers and spiritual leaders and merely pity the others, if not fear them.

I take my religion easily. I don't preach, and I am not a missionary; nobody is gonna be saved by me anytime soon. I conduct the rare bit of working sorcery, often for personal gain but not always, and my relationship with God (or Goddess as the case may be) is functional and laid-back (obviously). And I'm a scripter. I code to please myself as well as the higher powers. Mostly myself. If it works, groovy God is happy too. Hey I got other things to do besides obssess about Truth and my navel, OK?

It's those Nancy boys writing spreadsheet macros that are wasting their time. Rookies. ;-)

This is just as pointless as the argument itself.

[FireballFreddy]

#!/bin/sh
cat > /tmp/ego.c << END
#include <stdio.h>
int main(void)
{ printf("Programmer: Scripters suck.\n"); return(0); }
END
gcc -o /tmp/ego /tmp/ego.c >/dev/null 2>&1
/tmp/ego
echo "Scripter: Blow me."
rm -f /tmp/ego /tmp/ego.c

Re:Nope

[benzapp]

Please erase my student loan debt. Please Please Please.

I will do anything you ask. I will be your slave for a month.

Free human servitude.

You will never get caught, I promise.

Re:You all are missing the biggest thing..

[twitchkat]

Isn't there obfuscators for perl to buy/download?? THought it was. Not that I agree with obfuscating...

I believe Perl is obfuscated by default.

Re:PHP scripting/coding/whatever

[Soul-Burn666]

Real coders use this [rulez.org] as their keyboard ;)

Re:Scripting

[janda]

mslinux wrote:

but that doesn't matter so much now-a-days with 3 Ghz CPUs.

The answer to "it runs slow" is almost

• NEVER

"more powerful hardware".

Re:PHP scripting/coding/whatever

[sketerpot]

Ha ha! You get to use your hands? I have to use my tongue!

Re:Does the end user know the difference?

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Surly you meant this script?:

var i = 0;
var profit = 0;
while (i == 0) {
window.open('x10add_loop.html', '', '', '');
profit++;
}

Re:PHP scripting/coding/whatever

[buckminsterinsd]

Dan wrote:

"Python is not typed at all."

Good. Strong Typing is for weak minds...

best regards,

buck

THATS NOTHING!

[Anonymous Coward]

Where I work, any code I write, weather it's 1000 lines of Pearl or a compiled EXE, they still call it A Macro . ARRRGH!

Re:PHP scripting/coding/whatever

[Reziac]

Sounds exactly like OS arrogance, eh? :)