Is the Seeking of Lost Skills/Arts a Hacking Analog? 814
bigattichouse asks: "Having just finished my first batch of home-brew beer, I've been thinking about my attraction to 'lost arts', and collecting books on 'how to do stuff'. Some I try, some I just read: metalsmithing, sewing, baking bread, making soap, knot tying, brewing beer, woodcarving, yogurt and cheese.. there are so many skills 'lost' in the modern 'american' lifestyle... but I find my fellows tend to have books on these subjects lying around, too. Is this common in geekdom? Is this an expression of 'hacking' outside of machinery/engineering?"
k5 (Score:2, Interesting)
They seem to have it figured out...
Re:Absolutely (Score:3, Interesting)
I've been hacking over 30 years. I also brew beer, distill whisky, hunt, grow food, etc. These are definitely all the same expression: to know how things work.
Strange.. I have no such aspirations in other fields. I just like to work on systems and make them do cool stuff.
Re:SCA! (Score:5, Interesting)
Stephan Von Ardenwald
Pirateship Beltis
hacking life style (Score:5, Interesting)
Add Pinball to the list (Score:5, Interesting)
Getting back to my subject, I've also discovered that my passion for pinball [ipdb.org] (started at MIT in 1977) is shared with numerous folks on the net and around the world, and there is definitely a connection between the lost art of pinball (face it, pinball is dying, especially electromechanical machines) and geeks. [myhomegameroom.com] I own an old Faces EM pinball machine [ipdb.org] myself which I've been restoring to it's former glory, in between brewing batches of homebrew and playing Asheron's Call.
Most geeks are more steampunk than cyberpunk (Score:5, Interesting)
Am I this way? Of course. I love blending the old and the new, the modern with the retro. Hell, my ideal computer case design would be something that would look like it belongs in a victorian parlor. Geeks love the anachronism, because if something from the past Just Works, why not use it?
Curiosity (Score:2, Interesting)
I started learning how my car works because all that "moving stuff" is elegant and complex. It's the figuring out part that gives me satisfaction.
I will never do metalsmithing, but Maxwell's demon [freeserve.co.uk] may be my next experiment. Too wierd to be missed!
"lost arts" and hacking (Score:1, Interesting)
I'll also note here that at first I read the article as about Lost Arks and geekdom. What does Harrison Ford have to say about the relationship between those two things?
a few "lost" arts come to mind (Score:1, Interesting)
What our parents didn't teach us. (Score:3, Interesting)
Just like many of us who weren't taught any social skills, we also weren't shown many of the other things that turned out to be very necessary in the real world.
My favorite two 'works of written art' when I was a child were the Encyclopaedia and How Things Work.
Everything you learn (Score:5, Interesting)
As a musician, I find that my aesthetic for music applies to many other things.
Less is More.
Know when to Stop.
Look like you know what you're doing, and occasionally you will.
Steal the good stuff.
Do it for yourself.
I could probably come up with a zillion more, but you get the idea. Boil it down to the important things in one area, and chances are you can apply the things you've learned to something else.
Re:Not Quite (Score:2, Interesting)
When St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York was being redone a few years back, construction crews didn't know how to work the stones. All the modern technology and literature out there weren't able to figure out the clever way in which the original masons had put parts of the structure together. The solution (after I'm sure x number of consultants was hired) was to find some old men (80+) living in Scotland who had once done this type of work at the beginning of the 20th century. So skills do get lost and we've probably lost more than we'll ever know. Some of which was probably really quite clever.
Learning skills that are necessary for modern life is one thing, but learning skills because you appreciate the intelligence behind them is what tends to separate the inquisitive (i.e. geeks!) from the rest.
'how to book series' (Score:1, Interesting)
You'll learn how to make traps, make black gunpowder, tan hides, hunt various critters, work metal, woodcraft, and other things I've never done that the books list.
The pictures of the old toilets used to get material for black gunpowder reminds one what you did in the 1900's. And how yoou REALLY don't want to stay there, just go for visits.
Re:Definitely! (Score:1, Interesting)
Its all about keeping the brain busy, the challenge of something new, and the satisfaction of a job well done.
Go figure.
I agree (Score:1, Interesting)
I think another thing that seems to be common among our type is the drive to create artwork. I draw and paint a lot. Is anyone else afflicted by this urge?
Re:Absolutely (Score:2, Interesting)
I think this varies state to state. In the state I live in, it's perfectly legal to produce a certain amount of alcohol for personal consumption.
Re:Try the Foxfire book series (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Renaissance man. (Score:3, Interesting)
Anyway, I would add hunting to your list. Being able to go out to the woods and bring home free dinner for a month is a pretty awesome skill to have. And it's going to be much healthier meat than the beef or (even worse) chicken you get at the grocery store.
Just recently I learned how to cut up a whole chicken, and I will never pay $5.99 a pound for boneless skinless chicken breasts again. Plus, you can make an awesome soup from the parts of the chicken you don't use anywhere else.
Oh, and hunting comes with guns, which are pretty cool. Or, if you want to go ninja style, there's crossbows and stuff you can use. Who doesn't like crossbows?
Re:Rambling thoughts about this... (Score:2, Interesting)
- Robert A. Heinlein
"Lost skills" (Score:2, Interesting)
You may need those skills before you know it. I think it was former CIA director Richard Helms who is said to have had a stone axe in a frame behind his desk. The caption underneath said simply, "The Weapon of the Future".
Re:Absolutely (Score:5, Interesting)
grow food, etc
That's interesting. This is the first year that I've found the time to grow vegetables. I've got corn, pumpkins, and the one "conformist" crop that you must have where I live: tomatoes.
I never thought of this small garden as a "geek" endevour, but I must admint, because this is my first attempt to grow more than just "decorative" corn, I went online and found out all kinds of stuff about it.
A big part of the appeal for me in gardening is not to waste land, and not to get ripped off by people. The mentality that leads me to go the extra mile and grow pumpkins so I don't have to pay some ridiculous price in the Fall is a kin to the mentality that makes people edit arcane config files in Linux so they don't have to pay Bill Gates. Also, I think growing food on your land is somehow quintessentially American... OK, that's less of a geek thing, and more of a pride thing. Remember when pennies had the wheat on them, and America took pride in agriculture? OK... too much semiotics... at any rate, I've come to appreciate farmers. Don't let people tell you farmers are stupid. If they do, ask them about crop rotation and soil pH... put them in their place.
Re:SCA! (Score:2, Interesting)
In fact, there is a thriving maille-making culture, and it's not just dorks wearing steel shirts (though they're certainly there, just like not all
-d
Re:Um... (Score:3, Interesting)
First off, instant bread in a bread machine doesn't count. The advantage of hippie parents: we grew our own wheat, ground it up on the back porch in small batches, (ok - so the mill was an electric "magic mill"), then kneaded and baked. The best bread ever, and completely irreproducable except by hand.
As for beer, I brewed my first batch in 1986 and at that time, it was a practically lost art. Finding supplies was hard, but since Vertmont had just upped the drinking age and I missed the grandfather clause by 3 months, I had no choice but pursue the higher knowledge. Glad I did too. Also, I'm glad it's become popular - a hedge against it getting lost again. I remember those summer days in the basement, Doors blaring, cracking open a home brew - nothing like it!
Re:SCA! (Score:5, Interesting)
I spent some ten years working as a blacksmith, and believe me, it's a lot more fun making those swords than fighting with them.
And yes, a blacksmith can, too, be a geek. Just check out some of the literature and mailing lists on archaeometallurgy. There are much too many to list here, but Google will find some of them.
Re:SCA! (Score:0, Interesting)
Yes, like the difference between TrekkIEs and TrekkERs. Or the difference between Mobile Suit Gundam fanboys and Robotech fanboys.
Re:Geeks just want to learn (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Renaissance man. (Score:5, Interesting)
In a few hundred years, few books from this century or the last will exist. Since about 1850, when paper made from wood-pulp was first produced, many books have simply disintegrated as a result of the acid content. I have a number of books from as recently as 1987 which are already disintegrating.
That is what's going to make this a Dark Age.
Many of these skills also give you control (Score:2, Interesting)
Doing for yourself gives back some measure of control and satisfaction, even if it is in relatively small ways. For example, I prefer to drive a manual transmission car. I would bet a larger percentage of the Slashdot population drive manuals than the general population in the USA.
I also ejoy making pancakes, scons, and biscuits from scratch. Similar recipes, yet quite different outcomes. With that level of control, I can make custom pancakes by adding whole wheat, or other types of wheat. Yummy pancakes you will never find in a predefined one-size-fits-all mix at the store. As a bonus, it's also cheaper than buying mixes too.
Re:SCA! (Score:3, Interesting)
Uhm, you obviously have no knowledge about making swords. I have broken two swords, and they were high quality swords. If you go up against someone who knows how to handle it, a poorly made sword can be made to snap by a boken. I have a hardwood boken that I can use to break just about any sword you'll see being sold at the mall or any sword aside from a real swordsmith.
Re:Brewing Beer a lost art??? (Score:2, Interesting)
To say that homebrewing is as strong as ever is far from the truth. Far more people brewed their own just 150 years ago. Now whether or not it was drinkable... We can discuss that over a few gallons of homebrew:)
A broader phenomenon than you might think... (Score:3, Interesting)
Years ago I did a yoga retreat, and learned enough of the history to discover that some millenia ago, yoga and meditation were the hot happening things that occupied the brainiest people then living, the then-equivalent of today's startups and stock options and IPOs. Interesting.
This essay [accesstoinsight.org] describes a historical cycle that takes place in Thailand, repeating every century or two. Somebody goes out into the forest and meditates like crazy, rediscovers the Buddha's original findings, and starts a monastic forest tradition. Then the local authorities re-domesticate Buddhism, harnessing it for nationalistic and social purposes. After a few generations the forest tradition burns out, leaving behind a state-endorsed religion that discards the investigative orientation on which the forest tradition thrived. A century or so later, somebody else starts the whole thing up again.
Re:SCA! (Score:3, Interesting)
That's not the first skill I'd associate with the SCA.
Lotsa skills, including soapmaking, were exhibited at our recent A&S exhibit. At the risk of being slashdotted, [ancientpond.com]
here's some pictures.
Nobody is contending that digital photography nor simple HTML is a period skill...
Oh, and as respects the CAR15 fanatic? 1000 rounds would not be enough at our Pennsic War. Maybe 4000 would be. Who said a sca fighter ONLY played with medieval toys, though?
SCA: the largest private army in the world
Everyday magic. (Score:3, Interesting)
I see some people making disparaging comments about cities, but I don't think we need to succomb to that excuse. Even the smallest bits of nature bring their own magic with them, and there's plenty of room for just a little something here and there.
I live in the city and have a little balcony garden. When I get home from work in the evening, I carefully water the plants that need it, remove the aphids from my chives by hand, fertilize the poppys, check if any of my strawberries are ripe, remove dead and sick leaves from other plants, make sure neither my mint nor my oregano is getting the upper hand in its fight for space, etc... This all sounds very mundane, but somehow while I'm doing it all, the world seems much more beautiful then it did the rest of the day.
Then I go and use my home-grown thyme, oregano, cilantro, etc, to make a beautiful meal, better than you could get in any restaurant. I eat it while watching the bees come and go from my columbine and bleeding hearts. And that's an important portion of the joy in my life.
It's our dark side (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:SCA! (Score:3, Interesting)
Now that I think about it, your assertion is pretty silly. If firearm tech was going to be the death of horse-mounted cavalry, it would have happened with the introduction of the lever-action carbine. A little more bulky, but just as portable and packing quite a bit more punch... No, I think the horse was phased out in the military for the same reason it was phased out in the civilian world... Automotive tech can carry more stuff without keeling over dead, doesn't get tired until it runs out of fuel, and you only have to feed it as much fuel as you actually use.
As Geeks Grow Up (Score:1, Interesting)
After years and years of hacking/engineering things, my bearded, long-haired frizzy Unix-Geek brethren all seem to start tinkering with more solid things. One of my friends opened a part-time bicycle repair shop. Another is rebuilding an old military Jeep. I have started taking metalworking classes.
All of us have started to spend time improving our kitchens and learning how to cook. Home-brew is becoming ubiquitous whenever we get together.
I think part of it is that we want to see more tangible results from our labor. I think we are either consciously or unconsciously sick to death of pouring our hearts and souls into intangible systems that we do not own, and seem utterly disconnected from our reward (a direct deposit into a bank account we now only access electroniclly).
To hack and tinker and scratch your head and swear and get all pissed off, and then finally have that Eureka moment is far more satisfying when the Eureka means that you can now start your classic hot-rod again and take it around the block before fixing the next problem.
Geeks like systems. We like to engineer them, tweak them, customize them, and enjoy the results of our improvements or discoveries. So there is, I believe, a natural progression into more worldly and tangible things... Like beer and food and bikes and cars and such.
I can't wait for the day when I am able to "retire" from infosec and start a small metal fabrication shop. Which is really interesting, because back in college, the mere though of such an endevor would have had me laughing my ass off.
2 steps back = 1 step forwards? (Score:3, Interesting)
A significant portion of our technology is based off of early 1900's designs. For example, the way we generate electrical power (ie heat + water = steam >>> turns turbine > spins magnet > generates electricity) hasn't changed since it's discovery. There are some newer areas (solar cells, fuel cells) but for the most part we power 99% of our society this way.
A lot of basic technology is still very fundamental to our culture and I'm glad to see people revisiting it - it's the only way to continually shock the technology base of an advanced civilization.
These advances can come from anywhere, so what if the SCA are rebuilding medieval style armor? What if one of them comes up with a superior chainmail and merges it with Kevlar, reduces the weight and sells it to the military?
How about new designs for soap? New styles of paper? Are the old ways the best? You'll never know until you research a couple. There were tons of expirements in radio control in the early 1900's many of which were abandoned because the technology wasn't there - how many of those could be useful now?
Do the funamentals of our wireless transmitters remain the most efficient way to transmit information?
And it's fun, did I mention it's fun?
You're right. Get the Bootstrap Encyclopedia (Score:2, Interesting)
You might also search for the bootstrap encyclopedia...
What to do in case human kind re-start from nothing but knowledge ?
Imagine if there is no steel, no electricity, no tools, nothing but you in the wild nature with the bootstrap process in your brain.
First find food (ok), then wood (easy) and minerals (how?) and start the process with some other folks.
How many weeks for your first steel tool ?
How many months will you need to get electricity ?
How many years to get a real power plant ?
Many games ( Civ, AOE ) simulate this but who really knows enougth to complete this start from scratch ?
Is there a how-to-do-it-all-from-scratch encyclopedia ?
As as geek I often wonder if anyone else in the geekdoom tried to find it or to gather pieces of it.
Any feedback anyone ?
Your question and the number of replies show that geeks often have a hacking around spirit, creation oriented, and easily imagine themselves in an analog process I mentioned above.
Yet it seems engineering is always close to the lost art studied by the geek ( metalsmithing, sewing, making soap rather than some old kind of music, painting, poetry ). You see, your fellows aren't really hacking outside of engineering, it's an other way to exercise the same mind thinking "how to do this?" and then "yes I've made it!"
Great post of you, I'm looking for answers to my own question in the threads.
Geeks: Monks of the 21st Century? (Score:2, Interesting)
That said, I don't think that this interest in making/doing stuff yourself is unique JUST to geeks. This may be completely foreign territory to most
To be honest, aside from the fact that most people really don't CARE how to make stuff themselves, they just don't have TIME to do it. Are you going to come home after having worked all day for a paycheck (to pay for the hefty mortgage, the nice car, the 2-week family vacation) and spend 2 hours cooking a meal that will be consumed in 15 minutes? Or spend 10 hours sewing a garment that might cost $20 at a department store? Our time has become more valuable than the products we can hand-craft, so we buy the cheap manufactured goods and go about our lives.
It takes a deep sense of satisfaction and fulfillment, a pride in good craftsmanship, a true appreciation for things made "from scratch" to pursue these "lost arts" in today's culture. It's making things for the sake of making things and the value we place on them ourselves, unlike the "old days" when time was a less valuable commodity, and the only way to get stuff WAS to make it.
Now, to return to the original issue at hand - WHY does this seem to be more prevalent among geek set? Well, think about it: you've got a bunch of single guys with plenty of disposable income and free time on their hands (due to lack of familial responsibilities and no social life to speak of). It harkens back to the days of the great monasteries. Think about the monks hand-transcribing all those texts (a little like writing code, no?) - no families, no need for money... (no sex!) - just a bunch of time on their hands to spend their days furthering the intellectual evolution of the species. Load a guy down with a family and a mortgage, and *fwip* his available time (and money!) available for geeking out at will just dwindled considerably.
I speak, I daresay, from experience.