Promoting Musical Artists in the Post-RIAA Music World? 83
Mattcelt asks: "While we're all discussing the eventual demise of the RIAA and the triumph of the MP3, what should a small independent music publishing company do to sell a new artist to the public? My publishing company recently ran a $4,000 advertising campaign on a local radio station (107.9 the Link in Charlotte, NC). Despite reaching an average audience of more than 10,000 during peak times, we netted *0* sales. That's right, absolutely nothing. I've made the entire album available in MP3 format on the Ephelian Records website to facilitate adoption, and I know some people have downloaded the songs, but I can't figure out why no one has pre-ordered the CD. How does an indie artist make a living when gig prices for unknown artists will barely cover the gas money and CDs won't sell? Are we really wrong about the availability of MP3s affecting music sales?"
Ahem. (Score:5, Funny)
Er, dude...
Re:Ahem. (Score:2)
Quoth the AC:
I think you'd need more than a CD to contain all the posts by "Anonymous Coward" in the history of Slashdot. Of course, all the worthwhile posts by AC is a different matter...
Perhaps the talent sucks (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Perhaps the talent sucks (Score:2, Informative)
If he sang clearer, and they mixed it with the music a bit quieter, it would probably go over a lot better.
Re:Perhaps the talent sucks (Score:1, Insightful)
I only heard one track -- "Drop of a Hat". The song was interesting but it's crying out for some engineering work and a producer, as implied above. A few simple recording and mixing techniques [powells.com] would render the tune much more listenable [prosoundweb.com]. For me at least, it was hard to hear through the mix to decide if I even liked the song or not.
It's cool you're trying to promote your wor
Re:Perhaps the talent sucks (Score:2)
Re:Perhaps the talent sucks (Score:2)
Occams Razor... Simplist explaination.
-- iCEBaLM
Re:Perhaps the talent sucks (Score:1)
Have a look at "Serien" - I think you'll find it a a little deeper...
Matt
Re:Perhaps the talent sucks (Score:2)
Re:Perhaps the talent sucks (Score:1)
Re:Perhaps the talent sucks (Score:1)
Preorder? (Score:5, Informative)
Unless the band is extreamly hot and popular in the region, why would anyone bother to preorder, when they can just pick it up whenever it comes out, if they want the CD?
Re:Preorder? (Score:1)
Well, checking Amazon's top-sellers [amazon.com] in music, I see that:
Somebody's preordering CDs...
Of course, out of those six:
You've found the answer! (Score:4, Funny)
Re:You've found the answer! (Score:1)
Sha na na na sha na na na na... (Score:5, Informative)
How does an indie artist make a living when gig prices for unknown artists will barely cover the gas money and CDs won't sell?
Get a job.
Re:Sha na na na sha na na na na... (Score:1)
Props to you. I don't think anyone could have stated this better.
Yep... (Score:2)
Plenty of musicians have dayjobs and love playing music.
Let me get this straight.. (Score:2, Insightful)
Not to sound like a troll, but I fail to see your logic. The point of having a few mp3s is to give them a sample of what the rest sounds like. (Or in the RIAA's case, the few good songs on a CD). Also, my experience with indie bands is, well, that they suck. My cousin was part of one, and it wasn't what I would consider remotely stellar.
I buy CDs for music that I downloaded the MP3s of and found good, but th
Re:Let me get this straight.. (Score:1)
I think his logic was clear from his last question:
Are we really wrong about the availability of MP3s affecting music sales?
It seems that he's fallen for the statement made by many slashdotters and other P2P apologists that the spread of MP3s doesn't hurt music sales.
It just isn't true. And it goes against common sense logic, as your rhetorical question suggests.
Re:Let me get this straight.. (Score:1)
This isn't a simple equation where one can assume that changing one variable will result in a change in another.
Re:Let me get this straight.. (Score:1)
This isn't a simple equation where one can assume that changing one variable will result in a change in another.
Sure it is... Supply and demand. Increase supply more than you increase demand, and price goes down.
OK, OK. There are two variables.
Re:Let me get this straight.. (Score:2)
Hmm, and what about his paid advertising. That didn't seem to increase his sales either.
And how, exactly does Janis Ian fit into your generalizations? Is she a "P2P apologist"? (She's surely not a
It just isn't true. And it goes against common sense logic
Yes, it really is true. It fits in per
Re:Let me get this straight.. (Score:2)
Hmm, and what about his paid advertising. That didn't seem to increase his sales either.
One radio commercial to 10,000 people is hardly likely to. I don't see how that's relevant though. The question is whether or not P2P hurts sales. It's not whether or not paid advertising helps sales.
And how, exactly does Janis Ian fit into your generalizations?
She's an apologist.
She's surely not a /.'er, perhaps you could point out how she's a "P2P apologist"?
Setting it straight. (Score:1)
Now, to answer the questions:
One radio commercial to 10,000 people is hardly likely to. I don't see how that's relevant though. The question is whether or not P2P hurts sales. It's not whether or not paid advertising helps sales.
Well, it was more like 44 radio commercials... Twelve of which were during peak afternoo
Re:Setting it straight. (Score:1)
Well, it was more like 44 radio commercials... Twelve of which were during peak afternoon driving times (@$250/apiece) on the #1-rated show during in this marker during that time period. Average listening audience is projected between 9,800 and 13,500 or so for those times.
Well, I don't know enough about radio marketing to comment on whether or not that's likely to get people to buy CDs. Could be that the commercial wasn't done well. Could be that 44 radio commercials just isn't a good advertising mech
Re:Let me get this straight.. (Score:2)
Matador
Kill Rock Stars
4AD (Please don't tell me you haven't heard the Pixies!)
Alternative Tentacles
K Records
Thrill Jockey
Epitaph
Arena Rock
Minty Fresh
Secretly Canadian
Kranky
Lookout
...and about 1000 other indie labels. And these are just the ones I can pull from memor
Re:Let me get this straight.. (Score:1)
Burnt Toast Vinyl
Sub Pop
Jade Tree
Tooth and Nail
Darla
Def Jux
Misra
Saddle Creek
Velvet Blue Music
File 13
Drag City
Nothern
Barsuk
Kindercore
V2
Anticon
P o lyvinyl
Merge
Tiger Style
Deep Elm
Perfect Pop
Pias
Fat Cat
The best way to piss off the RIAA is to buy albums from these labels. Other added benefits... a world of music so great you'll swear you didn't know it was possible.
***warning: if you buy just one, you may end up a junkie like me. i tithe about 20% of my payc
Re:Let me get this straight.. (Score:2)
Hear Hear! (Or is it here here?). I was about to reply with the same comment. Last week I was down in Austin, Texas on business. It's an incredible city for live music. Anywho, we checked out this record store "Waterloo Records", it was incredible. They had a dozen listening posts with 5-6 albums per post,
I use Ogg Vorbis you insensitive clod! (Score:5, Funny)
I suggest you encode it in pristine ogg VBR @ 320kbps. Also, include scans of the album cover and back, a nice
Oh, did you ask how to make money off it? Err, nevermind...
Re:I use Ogg Vorbis you insensitive clod! (Score:4, Funny)
- For MP3 release, the maximum bitrate is 128kbps if you're using LAME (although not with an --alt-preset); unlimited if using Xing (with a requirement of at least 4 annoying artifacts and 1 annoying flanging effect through at least 20% of the track).
- For OGG Vorbis, you have two choices: -q-1 (that's minus 1), or any quality setting provided you transcode from an MP3 that passes the MP3 rules. Any and all OGGs must come with ID3 tags; preferably for a different album.
- No NFO, no scans of albums. Either the ID3 tag must be empty, incorrect or missing, or the filenames must be of the form track[1-12].{mp3,ogg}.
- SFV's and similar are out of the question unless they were created during processing; i.e. before adding ID3 tags (especially for OGG's), or created using some oddball tool that nobody uses.
- All these rules may be waived provided the files are only served off a single 200bps modem user in Alaska, who connects for five minutes every week.
Remember, failing to abide by these rules may result in your removal from the search database (except for those movies and crappy partial mp3's you haven't bothered deleting yet). The KaZZa Media Network thanks you for helping to reinforce the quality of service our users expect from the network.Re:I use Ogg Vorbis you insensitive clod! (Score:1)
Go to the EMP Records website [emprecords.com] for a directory listing with the songs in
Pleasing customers - that's how I plan to make money. "There's your book, now buy it!*" *grin*
Matt
* "Bookshop", Monty Python's Flying Circus
Post on slashdot... (Score:5, Funny)
Quarentine Cliff - He has Katz Disease! (Score:5, Insightful)
"Post-RIAA world"? Quickly, quarentine Cliff - he has Jon Katz disease!
(Actually, this being Memorial Day, I must admit I actually miss JK sometimes..)
</OT>
I would ask this: Is your album available in stores, or only via on-line ordering? If it is only available on-line, how easy to remember is the URL?
Consider where people listen to the radio - I would say mostly in their cars. Now, here I am, driving along, and on comes your ad. First of all, my ad filter wetware comes online - I hit the button to skip to a new station, or I blank out what is going on.
OK, so let's say your ad plays a snippet of the music in question, and I listen to it and say "Huh, that's kinda cool. Who is this?" Then your ad says "That was a sample of Scab - Now the Puss Flows Freely, available for download and purchase at www.fbq39x34.com/~tqxir/49912/pxj36.asp". Now, even if you said that slowly enough I could copy it, I'm not going to whip out a pen and paper and copy that while weaving through downtown traffic.
That's part of why the RIAA is still pertainent in this world. If all I can remember is the group name (and maybe not even that all that well) and if the group is in Worst Buy, I can find it. But if I have to find them online, and if all I have is some common words that don't lend themselves to Googling....
Last but not least: how does your website handle orders? Do you hid things behind layers of Flash and Javascript? Do you work only with Exploiter? Do you not accept credit cards?
Ask yourself this: if I wanted to buy that album, how many impediments are in my way?
Re:Quarentine Cliff - He has Katz Disease! (Score:1)
Problem is, the ad dates were set in February, when the release date was originally set for April 15, and the ads would have run after it was available in several retail stores and Amazon.com. When the album was delayed for a month (unforseen design and printing issues), I thi
use CD Baby (Score:2)
I'm not sure that was the best choice. You may want to consider using a much better established site (e.g. one with over 36,000 artists [cdbaby.com]) and a proven track record [slashdot.org] for sales; i.e. one that has already given $3 million dollars of sales profit to indie bands. They also make it very easy [cdbaby.com] to find indie artists who sound like your favorite bands. That saves having to wade through piles and piles of stuff that's
my 0,02 ¥ (Score:1)
i have been thinking about this quite a lot lately, since i'm kinda guilty of copying a lot of indie-music from friends without buying the cds: even though i could never afford even half price on every cd i've copied, i'm still paying for, lets say every tenth album.
i'm not sure if this is a working model, but i listen to more music nowdays, and
Try it the old-fashioned way... (Score:4, Informative)
You can't just throw your music at people who've never heard or seen the band before, and expect them to gladly fork over $10-20 on the chance that it could be good. Until you have some "known" artists, (i.e., they can attract a crowd on the basis of their name and rep for their shows) the label itself isn't going to be a good promotional vehicle. Once one or two of your artists have started to attract some attention, though, the label's name can be an attractor for new talent, and for listeners looking for more of that kind of music.
It can be done -- my father [day-reynolds.com] has been making a living as an independent musician for a number of years, and after establishing a sizeable local following for his live shows, has managed to self-publish and sell out several 1000-unit batches of his recent CDs. However, it took at least 3-4 years of low-paid live shows, interviews and solo accoustic sets on local radio stations, etc., before he was able to do so.
Ani (Score:1, Troll)
Re:Ani (Score:2)
She makes a good living, sells a lot of records at very good margins, and does what she loves (I presume). The advice is sound...Get your ass on the road, and if you have something worth listening too (and sometimes even if you don't), making a living will eventually follow. It is easier if you live
Re:Ani (Score:1)
Now there are a couple of possible differences here - 1) I don't have much radio play yet, 2) I don't have the budget that Sony et al. have, or 3) I don't know what the hell I'm doing in the marketing busines
the obvious... (Score:3, Troll)
What was the nature of your 'advertisement' on the radio? Was it a sample of some songs? Or was it just "we have good music - come here to buy it"?
Did you advertise the right kind of music to the right radio audience?
Are your prices out of line?
Are your CDs available in stores? Many people don't buy stuff online, and if it can't be found in a 'real store', they're not gonna buy it.
Do you even know what your target audience is LIKE?
Just some thoughts.
Did you consider...? (Score:2)
What about music? (Score:3, Insightful)
Big record companies spend millions on advertising and promotion, all done by experienced professionals. And they still sometimes lay an egg. Spending a few thousand dollars is no guarantee of anything.
If you want to make a place for your music, there's no substitute for the simple hard work of developing your art, finding your audience, and gradually making a place for yourself. This doesn't always work out, and it takes time and effort in any case. But there's no magic shortcuts.
Re:What about music? (Score:2)
Because it's hard to make music? (Score:4, Insightful)
At the same time, you've got overworked, long intros (leave that for the live album 20 years down the road), several insturmentals (which almost never do well - how many of James Taylors insturmentals can you recall?), and a singer that sounds like he's been training in high school chorus for the solo for the spring musical. Yes, I can say that, as I've had albums that flopped, and I sound nasal and grating.
Plus, having listened to the first half of all the songs, none of them really caught my attention and stood out. Sorry - it's *hard* to push albums. Live gigs? Sure - even I can fill a local venue. Selling albums across the country? You're competing with thousands of other bands, mostly comprised of veteran performers who are band-mate swapping every year or so, hoping to mesh with somebody for that next great hit. Plus loads of semi-successful or career artists like Throwing Muses and Men Without Hats, both of whom just released new albums and are trying to push their own stuff in the exact same way you are - with pre-built in name recognition.
To sum it up - making music is easy. Making good music is hard. Selling your music is the hardest thing of all and involves some amount of luck. There are bands that gave up, only to have their album suddenly take off two years after they gave all the copies away at live performances.
Incidently, I *assume* you're performing, pushing your stuff with at least two gigs a week. If you're not, you're not doing the work. Regardless if you make it this time around, constant gigging vastly improves your ability to perform, and if that's what you want to do in life, you have to work at it.
Incidently, while I ripped apart the *album*, you've got some decent songs. I'd sit and have dinner with you performing somewhere. And that's where 98% of all artists will spend almost all their careers. That's the music biz.
--
Evan
duh (Score:2)
Re:duh (Score:1)
Yeah, car commercials are becoming the Next Big Thing in music promotion. Even established artists like Sting are resorting to having their music used to sell cars to get their stuff out there (especially now that you can go to the car company websites and find links to buy the CDs the songs came from, in some cases).
Re:duh (Score:1)
Can you earn a living busking? (Score:2, Insightful)
People can and do travel this way. Good musicians don't starve. If you c
insert into mouth (money) (Score:2)
Re:insert into mouth (money) (Score:1)
You're spot on regarding my musical ability but your reasoning sucks. I'll give you on example. My brother in law is both a talented cabinet maker and a talented fiddler. He chooses to make a living from working with wood, but when he travels he covers his costs by taking the fiddle he made himself into the street and practising.
Re: Gigs (Score:2, Informative)
"...they built up a a dedicated following through a hard schedule of concerts..."
Unless you're groomed beforehand by the big labels, that seems to be the way to raise your profile and make some sales: hard work.
Re: Gigs (Score:1)
Here's a smack from the ol' clue-by-four (Score:4, Insightful)
Firstly, take any advice from me with a grain of salt, I'm not a successful indie artist... I'm just an indie artist. Firstly, you've done something good. You're on slashdot. You have managed to get free marketing in a venue where people "get" the idea of sampling a product before purchasing it, and many see the value in paying for a product they already have for free. This is a good thing.
However, for a pre-order scenario to work you really need to add value to pre-ordering it. You can do this by giving it away before selling, but the only ones who will bite are the ones who only want to listen to your music on a manufactured CD delivered at some point in the future, or wish to contribute based solely on the music they already have for free. So far, from your account of the situation, this number is zero. Now, if you relase a few of the tracks and make it so the rest aren't made available until a certain number of pre-sales are placed, then you're getting somewhere. Put some documentation on the web as far as how close you are to your goals. If you make it less expensive to purchase the CD on a pre-order, that helps too. I have 2 CD singles with mixes completed, the current plan is to release one outright and not release the second until sales of the first and pre-sales from the second will cover my costs.
Another plan for my music is to see if there's any chance in hell I can get it covered on slashdot. Perhaps your $4000 wasn't wasted, it just got funneled into sales in a way contrary to your expectations.
The way to make money. (Score:2, Funny)
Did it ever occur to you (Score:3)
A couple of reasons... (Score:4, Insightful)
First, I listened to the ad on the website... I'd assume it was produced by the station itself and frankly, it's horrible. It generates no excitement and it isn't catchy enough to stick out of the crowd of other ads. In short, few people even heard the ad. I did radio work for many years and I think you were screwed by the station production people. That ad could have been formatted in a dozen other ways and had more impact.
Second, you're advertising on the wrong station. "The Link" looks like a hot AC station and your music just doesn't fit into that demographic. Have you tried a college station? Send them a gratis CD and see if they play it.
Find a station that plays something similar... I'd call it easy listening or maybe even jazz if I had to put it in a genre, but maybe you know better where you want to head with it. Once you've found your station, toss out some teaser ads and see what gets caught in the net.
Good luck!
Re:A couple of reasons... (Score:2)
I'm definitely willing to blow some of my extra karma to say mod this parent up.
Re:A couple of reasons... (Score:1)
Certainly.
First, I listened to the ad on the website... I'd assume it was produced by the station itself and frankly, it's horrible. It generates no excitement and it isn't catchy enough to stick out of the crowd of other ads. In short, few people even heard the ad. I did radio work for many years and I think you were screwed by the station production people. That ad could have been formatted in a dozen other ways and had more i
Re:A couple of reasons... (Score:1)
For starters: Any ad on its own (I don't care what kind) is useless unless you have at least three or four other promotional ideas in place. If you have a radio ad, you more than likely want to tie that to a retailer or website where the CD is already available.
If you were expecting pre-orders... I mean.... pre-orders are not where your focus should be. Like at all. Orders, period. Any band that puts
Yeah, I tried a get rich quick scheme once too... (Score:3, Insightful)
You're asking people to pre-order a CD? You're asking regular, average, CD-buying people to preorder a CD?
Average Joe does not preorder anything from an unknown entity, much less for music that they've heard maybe 5 or 10 times in their life. Pre-orders work for groups that have dedicated following, who are willing to say, "Here's my money now - you can pay me with product later." You are trying to go backwards and develop a following by having non-followers preorder a CD.
I wouldn't do it, myself, unless I felt passionate about the music, and I doubt your music causes much feeling in me at all, nevermind passion. Even if I really liked the music I would say, "Well, I'll visit infrequently over the next few months - if they have anything they can ship tomorrow then I might buy it." But since the MP3s are freely available, I might not even check back.
Going back to your original question:
what should a small independent music publishing company do to sell a new artist to the public?
I suspect, but don't know, that a publishing company will have to take a hit on a few albums before the artist takes off. Like a web site it takes years, not months, to gather enough followers to make ends meet, without breaking a profit. Some artists biff, some make it big, but you have to hold onto them, develop them, produce two or more EXCELLENT polished albums, get some regular airplay on several stations, and put some blood, sweat, and tears into your work.
How about this:
Quick, easy/cheap, profitable.
Pick two. The RIAA does quick and profitable by pouring money into it. You will never be able to compete on their field, so don't try.
-Adam
I honestly don't know (Score:2)
In the past I've found out about music in many different ways: MP3.com (Electrostatic), news articles (Kyoko Date), anime (Sharon Apple), soundtracks (Craig Armstrong), free samples on the InterWeb (Delerium), radio, TV, friends, etc. Recently I haven't found any musical acts worth followin
oh man.. (Score:2, Informative)
so many things wrong with this..
1) I listen to the radio to LISTEN TO SOMETHING. If you're talking about something else I can listen to, and it costs money, I'm going to tune it right out. Would you put an ad for bottled water on a Coke can?
2) People are up to their armpits in music. Your music won't "sell itself" (*especially* to the 107.9 audience). I haven't listened to your music but I'd imagine it sounds a lot like a whole bunch of other musi
Re:oh man.. (Score:1)
Nope, it's an honest question.
1) I listen to the radio to LISTEN TO SOMETHING. If you're talking about something else I can listen to, and it costs money, I'm going to tune it right out. Would you put an ad for bottled water on a Coke can?
No, but it would be pretty dumb not to put an ad for coke on the side of a soft drink machine, don't you think? Why do you suppose Amazon.com puts "if you like this, you might like that" links on their websit
Play Venues, get popular, get promoted make money (Score:2)
Here's what my friend's band is doing (Score:2)
Now you say, well how do they make money on that deal? They don't expect to make money from CD sales. But by getting
Two words... (Score:2)
radio promotions alone.
G
I'll be the mean one to say it. (Score:2)
I'm sorry to have to say this, because he's probably a very nice guy but your singer is flat. Totally, completely, almost painfully flat. This wouldn't be as bad but his voice is also too loud on most (though not all) of the MP3's. Re-balancing the songs would be a good start, but quite frankly as I listen to "Reluctance" in the background (one of the few well-equalized songs in the bunch) it does not seem
Simple! (Score:2)
My reccomendation would be to post it to a highly-trafficed internet site and use sympathetic keywords like 'End of RIAA' and 'independant publisher'. Try to make it look like a real story rather then just an ad, and watch the money come rolling in!
Cynically, this probably IS a paid placement, folks. Welcome to the New Slashdot.
--Dan
Re:Simple! (Score:2, Interesting)
Honestly, I did it because I wanted to find out what the people in the
You're right, this has been a priceless set of links for me, but I think the real value is in the suggestions, not in whatever sales might or might not derive from it.
Matt
Formula ... (Score:1)
2. Play it well live
3. Build up a fan base
4. Sell stuff (CDs, t-shirts, tickets...)
5.
6. Profit!
Try looking at these guys [katsuiswatchingyou.com]. They're doing alright. Not quite to the Metallica, Creed, Brittney Speares level of riches yet, but they definitely hold their own for a small town with more local acts than it knows what to do with.
-Ab
A review of the album. (Score:1)
The album is called Snapshots, by someone named Matthew O'Reilly, someone I haven't heard of before now. The MP3s can be found at this link [emprecords.com].
First off, a hint for the original submitter: You don't need full-bitrate MP3s for a preview. 56Kib/s would have done, and would have been a lot faster to download. Further, it would also encourage people to buy the album if they liked it, just to get something they could get a higher bitrate from.
Tracks:
band sales (Score:1)