Executing a Mass Departmental Exodus in the Workplace? 1190
rerunn asks: "The recent story about the consultants from JBOSS walking out couldn't have had better timing. I'll save the drama and cut to the scenario: You and a few close co-workers make up the core grunts of 'the department'. The company relies heavily on your department for many services, some of which, other departments cannot provide. You like your job, it provides great satisfaction. Suddenly, the company realizes its in deep financial shit, and starts making cut backs. This impacts the department. You suddenly find yourself working 50-60 hour weeks, put on call with no compensation, given unreasonable amounts of work and generally treated like dirt. You get the feeling that the company is just going to take advantage of you no matter how and what happens. You get together with the rest of the department for a 'fsck this company' meeting and decide to walk out. Have you ever done this?? (We are so close!) What was the outcome?"
as good as it sound.... (Score:5, Insightful)
With today's job market I'm afraid the company will just replace you with people that are hungry for work.
I could be wrong, but I've always lived by the mantra "better safe, than sorry."
Mike
No, really... (Score:5, Insightful)
Why face the job market alone when you can face it with all your co-workers?
In this economy... (Score:5, Insightful)
What's really important for you? (Score:5, Insightful)
The IS version of Johnny Paycheck (Score:5, Insightful)
Q: So, why did you leave your last position?
A: Things got rough, they treated us like dirt, I left.
This will raise doubts in the mind of the interviewer as to whether you're a person who can help an organization weather tough times...
The real solution... (Score:3, Insightful)
You can't collect unemployment when you quit, you know.
Re:as good as it sound.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Some questions and observations... (Score:5, Insightful)
Would you rather be out on your own looking for another job than continuing to turn up every day and take what is being dished out? Consider that despite the angry words of your colleagues, they may not step up when the crucial moment comes, and you alone may be the one leaving. Is that still okay?
Do you have savings to take 6 months with no income, or maybe shares you can sell to cover that period... because if you leave, it will be like leaving a relationship, you will be depressed, think and talk of nothing else for months, boring your friends and family until you get over it.
Is there any upward future for you in the company, ie, is continuing to work there acting as an investment for you that may pay off at a later time? If there is some hope of a career path, given how you are treated by people at that level, is that somewhere you want to be? Given the trajectory of the company, is there going to be a later time for this to pay off in?
Can you get out without dropping innocent colleagues in the shit?
Just be careful about your co-workers (Score:5, Insightful)
Walking out together? (Score:3, Insightful)
If the situation is that bad, you should do the normal route: look for a job while keeping yours. If/when you find another job, you quit. Your coworkers can all do the same. Things'll work out much better if you only bail when you have a parachute, and, no matter how bad your job is, it's better than no job at all.
What's the outcome? (Score:2, Insightful)
Be careful... (Score:5, Insightful)
NDAs and other such things in your contract might not let you break off "en masse". That is something to be careful of. Make sure you don't have contractual limitations or obligations that could prevent you from making a clean break. Using your collective knowledge and contacts, I think you all have a pretty good shot at making it on your own.
We did it 1 year ago! (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't do it! (Score:5, Insightful)
I know it would give you great satisfaction to flip off the boss and walk as a group. Yet, the economic reality today says that is a really dumb idea. If you don't like your current position, at least have another place to land before you toss it.
Further, it is HIGHLY suggested that even though you don't like the place, that you don't burn bridges. What are the chances you are going to work with some of the managers/people above you in the future (answer from 25 years in the business - 100%) Leave gracefully and your career will do better in the long run.
I suppose... (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem with the latter is that if the company really is in trouble, you'll be putting the nails in its coffin.
In this job market, I would personally not be too excited about the prospect of a job hunt. I've got friends who have been actively looking for over 6 months - it's kinda rough.
Another thing to consider is that some might just decide to let you all walk, and feign some form of loyalty to the company... it's a win-win for them. If the company survives, their "loyalty" will be rewarded, and if it crashes and burns, they will be eligible to collect unemployment while those who quit will not.
(just some random thoughts)
Re:The IS version of Johnny Paycheck (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, you're welcome to play it safe that way, carefully moving from exploiting company to exploiting company.
Clearly you should spin it a little better than that sentence, but if a company looks at you and thinks "hm, when we want him to bend over and take it, he's not going to" and the doesn't give you a job... did you want to work for them?
-andy
Re:as good as it sound.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Which isn't always so obvious.
The fact that the job market is low, and there's a bunch of unemployed specialists, doesn't meen that there'is a bunch of *good*, hard-working, unemployed specialists.
And if the staff that quits is a good one, the replacement will be difficult(if not impossible) to do.
Anyway, yes a company may replace _anybody_ within a week or so, but in the futur it may loose a lot... an awful lot.;o))
HR Perspectives (Score:5, Insightful)
Dealing with a union is nice, cause its a one-on-one arguement and you can get things moving that way.
But if everyone leaves in your situation, they need to know why you left, and who to talk to make things right.
Another point, during strikes, about 25% of the time, the people were simply replaced.
You are talking about a poor IT economy. Lots of unemployeed geeks that just want a job, even if its 50-60 hour weeks (as long as you can put food on the table).
The bottom line? Don't even think about doing this unless you are prepared not to come back.
You're better off just doing the work, and talking to management about compensation.
Re:What's really important for you? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's precisely that attitude that perpetuates the perception a lot of bosses (and governments, for that matter) have that it's OK to treat staff as consumables.
If you act like a doormat, don't be too surprised when someone wipes his boots on you.
Alternatives (Score:5, Insightful)
Would you like to try to convince a judge and jury that these 'lazy' workers were fired because they refused to work unpaid overtime? Didn't think so.
--Dan
Run *when* you can (Score:2, Insightful)
Don't bother about people putting moral pressure on you, as I've seen in the postings before. That's quite unreasonable for two reasons.
First, if the company goes bankrupt, you'll need another job anyway, so the sooner you start looking, the better.
Second, it's not your responsability, but management's. You cannot be blamed for bringing the company to the point where it is now, so don't feel guilty about the consequences of your actions. Furthermore, somebody else fired you co-workers, and that should make you responsible? No.
There is another reasons why you might walk: it gives better job security to your current co-workers. The company will need them more than ever and will save a few bucks on your salary.
Good luck to you and the people in your company.
Don't have a walkout party, have a resume party! (Score:5, Insightful)
Combined with other people's comments that "You are replaceable"
You and your team might as well critique each other's resumes and start applying for jobs.
If you are walking out, its because you don't want to come back- not because you want them to treat you with respect. If you want to be treated with respect, ASK that you be treated with respect. If the response is a lot of Management BS (hopeful language but nothing concrete) you know that they aren't going to do anything about it. So send those resumes, line up a better jorb (homestar runner typo!) and then LEAVE.
Yes, we just did this (Score:5, Insightful)
The biggest regret I have is an accomplishment that I would never put on a resume or mention in a job interview: I put a dying company out of its misery by being part of a staged walkout. I mean who would walk to talk about that at your next job? "If the company is in trouble, I the man to kill it dead."
My advice: don't do it. The thing you are suppose to do is get your work done and go home at 5:00pm. If they can't handle this then you will be fired which, believe it or not, will make you feel better than walkout in lockstep.
Be selfish, but don't be vindictive (Score:5, Insightful)
Solidarity is all well and good, but at the end of the day, the only reason any of you are working for this company is to get a paycheck at the end of the day. You don't actually owe each other anything.
If the company suffers (as it will after a mass wlakout) it doesn't help you. It harms them, with ne benefit to you at all, and the loss of your financial stability. It doesn't matter if they learn their lesson. If they improve, you don;t work there any more.
Admittedly, the other people will suffer even more through having to do your job if you walk out, but that will be short term. They can also find a new job. You can help each other out if you want. They can stiull choose to leave.
Re:Please (Score:0, Insightful)
shouldn't slashdot be one of the last places to visit if you're easily offended?
Re:The real solution... (Score:1, Insightful)
I would recommend that they don't work so hard. Also, start looking for another job. If you want to improve your situation, have a collective barngaining session with the manager of your devision. If it isn't fruitful move up the chain.
Re:No, but... (Score:2, Insightful)
it's gonna' take more than one brilliant great idea. it actually takes like ten, of which only one works.
im helping a web hosting co. the brilliant idea wa to be non-profit. guess what happened: no profit.
now they are thinking of just selling the assets
Re:Result (Score:4, Insightful)
A thought... you could just "slow down". Work slowly, stop doing things, make sure you only put in 40 hrs / week. In New Jersey at least, if you get fired you can collect unemployment after 2 weeks. Granted, I don't know how long you want to live on unemployment for...I think it's about 2/3 of your salary with a cap at $280 a week. Ugh.
Also, there have been a couple of lawsuits where people have sued for unpaid over time... a class action suite between Walgreens & their pharmacists(sp) comes to mind. Shoveling a ton of work on you because you're "salary", "a professional", or "management" is illegal, and if you work cannot reasonably be done in ~40 hrs/ week you are supposed to be compensated for overtime put in.
::shrug:: IANALOAUO
Re:The IS version of Johnny Paycheck (Score:5, Insightful)
An an employee, there are two additional ways to look at this. First and foremost, have your concerns been known to management, or is this a bunch of guys grumbling at the water cooler? If management knew that things had gotten that bad, they would take action. Why would they risk a critical team walking out like that? They might not be able to wave a wand and make things better right away, but they'll most likely do something. Secondly, as an employee you can also look at circumstances like this as an opportunity...
With IT being as tough as it is (Score:3, Insightful)
See what the options you have are - take a good look at something that you've wanted to do, and see if there is an opportunity there. Sometimes, everone needs a change of scenery. Again, ensure that there is *somewhere* to go; you don't want to be the new bitch at McDonalds.
Be self aware, and honest with yourself - did you have a gravy job;, did you spend hours of company time trying to make the perfect paper clip crossbow? Is this job the best that you can hope for right now?
It seems to me that you would be better serving yourself (when it comes down to it, you have to pay *your* bills) to sit down and think:
1) Where am I going to go?
2) Am I just getting fired up (no pun intended), because of my coworkers?
3) How do I feel about the coworkers that I will be affecting?
4) Will this end in a firey gun battle?
Just be sure you are taking care of you, cause once rent, electricity, water, car payments, food, and cable bills start coming in, you will find yourself in a darkened apartment, with a can of spagetti-o's, wondering when you'll get used to taking cold showers.
Of course, if your Goth - then go for it!
Re:HR Perspectives (Score:3, Insightful)
> But if everyone leaves in your situation, they need to know why you left, and who to talk to make things right.
Yeah, assuming they want to make things right. Don't you think if they cared things wouldn't have gotten so bad in the first place?
Spoken like a typical it's-not-our-fault-the-employees-are-treated-like- shit-but-we're-here-to-make-it-better HR person. So you want to be made aware of the problems? Hmmm, how about starting with PAYING YOUR EMPLOYEES FOR THE WORK THEY DO.
Like a typical company, you might think that employees are expendable, and they are to a certain extent. But look at a company that has high employee morale vs. a company that has high turnover. Which one do you think is more productive in the long run? It's called human RESOURCES for a reason. Unfortunately, this fact doesn't help the poor proletariat.
</bitter rant>
Been There; Just Done It (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Some questions and observations... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm glad someone brought that up... if you don't (or aren't working toward that goal - and by that I include paying off debts like credit cards first), and you're currently employed, then you're an idiot. Plain and simple.
And if you claim that that's bullshit, and you can't save that kind of money, then you need to go read some investment books. I highly recommend pretty much anything from The Motley Fool, as well as The Millionaire Next Door. It's not that hard, and saving for your retirement and for short-term unemployment is the best thing you can do.
Anyway, if you don't have those kinds of funds, seriously think about securing a new position before leaving the old one. Otherwise you're going to be in a world of hurt. And realize that while 3-6 months of savings is good, plan ahead for what you're going to do when that money runs out and you still haven't found a position. Don't be negative, just be realistic -- part of that includes planning for worst cases. (And, actually, if you don't have a job in 6 months then you also need to figure out what to do for health insurance - COBRA runs out at that point. Don't go uninsured, since any future insurer will then be able to point at "previously existing medical condition" to avoid paying for many things).
Can you get out without dropping innocent colleagues in the shit?
Doubtful, but there's little he can do about that at this point... if the managers are overworking their staff, it's not his fault. And getting out may be the best thing to do. Yeah, more will fall on his coworkers, but that was due to bad decisions by management, not by him (I hope).
As far as the mass exodus bit goes: unless you have a business plan to work on for yourself and your coworkers -- complete with funding -- then there's no point. All you're doing is walking away from the company, ensuring you can't even get unemployment benefits, and screwing the company while you're at it. If you're unhappy with the job, then leave. Or at least start looking for a new gig. Don't take all this crap about "be happy you have a job!" because some jobs just aren't worth it.
Yes, not having a job sucks - I was let go from my company (along with 60% of the other employees) ~18 months ago. And I found a new job in a bit over a month. But wow did that suck. If I hadn't been let go, then I would've been looking anyway, because I'm quite sure that the job went to hell in a handbasket.
Words of wisdom (Score:1, Insightful)
Write a letter instead!! (Score:2, Insightful)
At the time, I wasn't in the IT deparment at my work, I was working in our Art Deparment, doing IT for ONLY the Macs and outputting printing film.
Well everyone knew I was way better at computers then the current Systems Admin. So everyone came to me with thier problems, PC or Mac... Since I wasn't getting paid the "IT" salary, I had enough of the abuse and constant interruptions. At the end I had 5 bosses!!!!
So I wrote a letter telling them how I felt, and how I have no intension of leaving or anything like that, but I wanted to be moved into the It department full time, where I'm must needed. And I didn't discuss any money at this point....
And you know what, they fired the current Sys Admin, and moved me into the IT deparment full time. And making tones of money......
It just goes to show you, that you NEED to be tackful, and be very careful and how you handle this.
I just expressed how I really felt. I told them the truth. If the company and position is worth it, they will understand...
What if it DID work...for a while? (Score:4, Insightful)
If this plan did work it would also make you all look like trouble-makers. They would please you now, to keep the business going, but then slowly hire new people (at a cheaper rate) to learn everything you do and simply replace you.
So perhaps you should rethink your plan. Remember, no one is untouchable. No one is unreplaceable. You may think this, but it's simply not true.
And at your next job interview... (Score:4, Insightful)
"They were treating me badly so I just walked out."
"How were they treating you?"
"They wanted more work hours and more time on call, because the company was going through some tough times."
"That was unacceptable to you? You weren't able to negotiate a better position?"
"Huh? We didn't do any negotiation, we just got together and all walked out."
"It must have been challenging to manage the changeover to a new team."
"Nah, we just all walked out together! Maximum disruption!"
"I see. Well, thank you for your time."
Re:as good as it sound.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Kintanon
Re:What's really important for you? (Score:5, Insightful)
And how is this different from how employees treated employers during the economic boom? Employees demanded unheard benifits and jumped ship as soon as they found another job that pays more. Now that the table has turned, they whine.
Re:Result (Score:5, Insightful)
You should not work more without some sort of compensation. Any change in your regular work requirements should come with negotiation. Management's line will be something like, "we all just need to dig in", but management usually has a bit more equity in the company. Negotiate for some of that equity. Negotiate a company policy for preferential promotions for those that did dig in. More vacation, flexible work hours, etc...
Or just walk out all at once. They've made unilateral changes to the implied rules. Its your life and you owe loyalty to yourself first.
Think that just because you're salaried means you should work 60 hours per week when called on? Try leaving work after 20 hours one week when you get everything done early and see just how flexible they are. Forty hours is implied most places.
There are all sorts of exceptions to what I said above. As a programmer I expect a few wild hour nights/weekends when we are integrating or deploying to production. When I sign on to be a programmer, I can expect a few of those at milestones. I also expect that my output will be based on 40 hour weeks and not 60 hour weeks.
Re:What's really important for you? (Score:3, Insightful)
If you act like a doormat, don't be too surprised when someone wipes his boots on you.
I'm pleased to hear that the recession hasn't hit wherever you live.
Reminds me of a story I once heard... (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, in the tech industry, where we are all "professionals" and get "salaries" and have "careers", we are above such plebeian things as unions, a day's wage for a day's work, any sort of job security, or any action that would bring into question our undying and unflinching support of whatever corporate entity we are employed by.
Stand up! Companies treat employees as badly as the employees put up with. One bit of advise: don't just walk out without warning. Get together as a group and talk with management. Be up front about the problems and what would fix them. Don't threaten to walk out, just use your collective voice to give them a chance to fix things. Then if things don't improve, walk. I say this because I once worked for a small company with a CEO that was a real piece of work. All 15 or so employees got together and met with the board, not threatening to walk, but deadly serious. A month or so later, he was gone. If one or two managers are the real problem, organize and go above them. Don't be petty or complain about "style" or "personality". Instead, provide a clear list of issues and how they hurt productivity and morale, and what can be done to fix them. If it works, you won't have to walk. If it doesn't, walk quickly. You will have given them the chance to save themselves a heap of expense and trouble.
Please excuse the ranting, but as someone with a family and a life, I have been disgusted by all the corporate boot-licking and cowardice I have seen. Big salaries and perks during the boom distracted people from seeing that they we being used. If you work 80 hour weeks, you are doing the work of two for the price of one. Who is the sucker?
Burning bridges? (Score:2, Insightful)
Actually, this raises a serious point, which is that a departmental walkout may give you visceral satisfaction, but most technical industries have a 'grapevine' of some sort. You could find yourself interviewing for a new job and having the interviewer say: "Oh, you're one of THOSE guys..."
Unless you have another job lined up, or know that there are lots of better places with openings, it's probably a good idea to stick with the devil you do know.
My $.02
Does the Managment know how the dept feels? (Score:3, Insightful)
If you did really enjoy your job beforehand, I would create a list (along with the rest of the dept) of the main issues that need to be resolved to make the situation better. Once you do that, explain in a rational manner why these changes need to be made (ie: I understand that money is tight around here, but our dept will not work the extra hours for free. We are vital to the success of this company, etc). Do *not* make any threats (ie: we will all quit). Give the management a chance to change things for the positive!
If that still doesn't work, then it likely would be best to quit. Alot of people will recommend that you stay until you find a new job, but life is too short to be in a position you hate, while working your life away! If you can afford it, get out!
Communicate, people! Communicate! (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe the description of the situation left some things out... but this really seems like a big case of an "us against them" failure of communication. Notice this bit: "You get the feeling that the company is just going to take advantage of you no matter how and what happens." Feelings, huh? You don't know what's going on or why, but you have these feelings?
There is no "company", a single malevolent entity that is treating you like dirt. There are a lot of individuals involved in the decisions to ask more hours of you, put you on call w/o extra compensation, etc.. Right now, one of your managers is probably talking to his superior, saying "well, I guess we could ask W and X to handle those few extra on-call hours... it sure sucks, but they seem to be okay with the increases so far, and someone has to do it. That should keep customers Y and Z with us, so we'll be okay on payroll through this quarter, at least."
Do you get it? You have to ASSUME that everyone is on your side from the very beginning, and start talking to your manager, their manager, etc.. Let them know that you and the other grunts are starting to give under the strain. Find out what the problems of the company are, and talk about how the company is dealing with them.
Important: approach everything with a friendly, "we're all doing what we can" attitude. As soon as you get hostile, whoever you're talking to will get an uncontrollable urge to dig in their heels. Instead, decide where your breaking point would be, and discuss it reasonably ("if this happens, I'd really have to leave, and neither of us wants that to happen"). You are NOT making threats. Make this clear. Explain that you will keep your manager informed as the situation evolves, and that you will not leave without warning.
If you start getting frustrated with anything other than the economy, calm down and pick up the conversation later.
Bottom line: decide what kind of sacrifices this company is worth to you, and get in on the big picture.
Good luck.
--
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler". - Albert Einstein
Re:Result (Score:5, Insightful)
Will you prefer a daft slug that stays until the final solution has descended on the office?
Alternatively, will you take someone who can actually foresee the reality and where will the business develop to and has gone and tried to fend for himself before the shit has hit the fan (due to some idiot PHB with a mi(bi)llion sized compensation package)? Or an idiot with no business sense and a firm belief that "Build it and they will come"?
I frankly prefer to work people with guts, brains and at least some elementary survival skills. If you like to work the gutless and brainless ones I am not really amused that you have to speak about things like loyalty to retain employees. That is instead of speaking of business perspectives (if any).
Overall, loyalty is a concept to be mentioned around countries and ideologies. Die for your country for loyalty reasons - yes. Stay on a sinking ship (company) for loaylty sake - the f*** no.
Loyalty and business do not mix. A decent business should cause a sufficient level of interest in the employee for him/her to be loyal without having to call on that loyalty. That is especially and mainly from the "what happens next perspective". Under "what happens next" I do not mean tomorrow. I mean years down the road. Yeah, times can get tough. But there is no reason to despise an employee that has jumped ship in a tough time if you could not make him/her believe that the times will get better and when they will get better.
exit with grace (Score:5, Insightful)
What's the first few questions you'll be asked at your next job interview?
Why are you looking for a job?
Why did you leave your previous job?
Would your former employer rehire you?
Make sure the way you exit provides the best possible answers to these questions. You'll regret it if not.
When I was in a similar situation, I got the next job first and then I wrote two resignation letters: the one wanted to send, which is still fun to read, and the cordial one I did send. The object is not so much to avoid burning bridges but to let them stew in the regret of not to being able to hold on to such a desirable employee. Flip the bird on the way out and it'll only give you more trouble later.
Re:What's really important for you? (Score:5, Insightful)
I submit that in any decent company, this question should not and will not come up. Even if it is already 'in deep financial shit'. In a decent company, staff may be asked to bear a heavier burden or even take less pay, while the downturn lasts. The point is that staff is asked to make a sacrifice, rather than being pushed into that situation by management firing half a department and then expecting the remaining staff to do all of the work. Also, a good company will reward their employees' loyalty when things go better again.
Don't tell me that I am somehow expected to make these sacrifices. And that is exactly the attitude of (too) many companies these days: "Times are rough and we all have to suck it up. Hey, be thankful you have a job at all". Treat people like shit and they'll return the favor one day.
And what if inviting a number of co-workers to walk out to form our own company may spell the end for your erstwhile employer, sending other people into unemployment? If you think that that fact should give you pause, think again. You are not a slave to your company nor to your coworkers.
Re:No, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
Reason being : North Carolina doesn't want to send me an unemployment check if their is a company willing to hire me.
Wage packets are not hand-outs! (Score:2, Insightful)
If pay & working conditions become unacceptable, we quit them. If our behaviour or our productivity is unacceptable, they quit us. It's not like we've taken wedding vows for chrissake.
If you are drawing more salary than you are worth, go ahead - keep your head down & milk it before your employer realises this. But if you give value for money then you do not need to act like the subservient partner. Jobs are tricky to find at the moment, but good employees are not easy to come by either.
Of course it's prudent to have somewhere else lined up before you quit. Just as it's wise for a company to find someone to cover for the guy they're about to fire. I just object to people acting like their employment contract is their most valued possession, rather than their skills, initiative & integrity. Have some confidence in yourselves!
I took the shit, the result? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:HR Perspectives (Score:1, Insightful)
I've always been opposed to trade unions (I live in Germany, and there's not really a job for them to do here). But recent developments in the US have changed my mind. Yes, you do need them. Otherwise you'll always be treated like shit as a worker if the economic climate is bad. Companies have much more oomph than their single employees, so they could pretty much do to them what they want. But if the employees co-operate, the picture changes.
This system obviously only works if the unions stay moderate. France seems a good example of the opposite...
Brand Recognition (Score:2, Insightful)
Blackball (Score:5, Insightful)
It would take me about 1 second to decide toss a resume of a guy in your situation who did what you plan to. Nobody needs agitators, least of all a company in somewhat dire straits.
If things are so bad, quit, by yourself. If things are bad for others, they'll probably quit too. But getting others involved in an organized fashion for the explicit purpose of making it tough for the company is unprofessional and will rightly brand you as a trouble maker.
Re:In this economy... (Score:5, Insightful)
That being said, I thank god I had the parachute, because I've been self employed for close to 10 months now, and some of the projects I was supposed to get right after I quit my job are only now starting to come in.
The thing you don't want to do, and I agree with parent poster here, is starve to the point that your breath smells... then you have no bargaining power anywhere, and you'll end up being a janitor. If you have enough money to float for at least a few months, you can play 'aggressive' (read not let yourself get raped) by the market.
On a side note, quiting my job after the exact same scenario was the best thing I've ever done in my life. I used to be bitter, jaded, pessimistic, and always ready to snap into a bad mood. Now I'm jaded and pessimistic, but I enjoy life SO much more. Even more satisfying is watching the people who *didn't* quit back then, who are still complaining about the SAME things, 10 months after... not because I'm enjoying their pain, but because I can see exactly how much energy I was wasting in being that way back then.
My moral: if things don't look good now, they will most likely not look good in 6 months unless something is done. Staying at your current place is not "something".
Also, I would keep in mind that mass exodus will freak your managers out, hiring is the most expensive thing a company can do, so keep that in mind. You are in a company, in the business world... this is not favors in the school yard. IF you finally decide you will walk out - don't. First threaten walking out. Lay it on the table. Say "either we work a compromise of some sort, or we're out of here, chose". If you are determined to survive in the wild, then right now you are the most valuable selves you'll be ever. This is the moment when you can cash in on your skills - not when everything is peachy and all is running smooth. But always remember that you might end up staying there, so don't make ridiculous demands which will hurt the company and you ultimately either. Fine balance ain't it! =)
Turn it around. (Score:3, Insightful)
No, the company is lucky to have them and should behave. If the company is really on the way out and these folks can do without them, they should as soon do it as soon as possible. Why sit around and eat shit until the company fails, FOR NO FAULT OF THEIRS? Someone at that company is screwing up or does not belong there. It's not the programmers. A partnership will be tough, but they will be there eventually and might as well start rectruiting useful people before they all make other plans.
Re:Result (Score:3, Insightful)
IIRC unemployment is not paid by the general tax payers. Its paid by your former employer.
On paper, that is true. However, that money, along with the health insurance, benefits and other things that your employer supposedly pays for as well really just come out of money that was going to be paid to you anyway. The average employer pays about $1.35 to $1.50 per $1.00 that the employee receives. Amove that overage is cash that is put into the unemployment compensation fund. The fund would have no money if no one worked, so indirectly, you pay for it, as always.
Re:What if it DID work...for a while? (Score:3, Insightful)
The company is not the only one who could spend the next 6 months "making preparations".
No company is irreplaceable, either.
Re:What's really important for you? (Score:1, Insightful)
I am so sick of this "Oh, pity me. Be happy you have a job!" whining. Just because you aren't flexible enough to try out for a job outside of your creepy little work niche of configuring Oracle for financial companies that use Linux while underwater -- doesn't mean that the economy sucks. Maybe you can't make $80,000 a year doing what you used to do, but there's still plenty of great, interesting jobs out there. Just don't be so stuck up. So what if you have to take a job developing Java instead of Visual C++? So what if you're making $40,000 a year instead of $55,000?
This goes for all of you whiners. If you're any good at what you do, then you can be good at something similar to what you used to do, even if that means plugging away at databases instead of code, or configuring routers instead of building PCs.
Me? I started my own company when times got tough. Life is good. Just open your eyes and try something that everyone else isn't.
Re:Result (Score:3, Insightful)
I wouldn't however walk out on someone without a backup plan (another job lined up) even if they deserved it. Particularly in this economy.
Try this. (Score:5, Insightful)
A: Things got rough, they treated us like dirt, I left.
BZZZZZT, wrong answer.
A: We did not like the way our management was handeling our product so we formed a partnership. You may be familiar with OUR_NAME and OUR_PRODUCTS and OUR_CLIENTS.
Of course, the question only has to be answered if the partnership fails. As such partnerships are the way of free software and free software is the future, I would not project a failure. If you end up with an interviewer that wants to work you to death and dispose of you, you might be better off somewhere else.
My advice? Be professional. Always. (Score:5, Insightful)
That doesn't mean you must work overtime in terrible conditions for poor pay. But it does mean, if you decide to take your employment elsewhere, that you leave the company like a professional.
Treat your reputation like a valuable possession -- because it is.
Sorry, but walking out is a "screw-your-employer" gesture. It's about as unprofessional as you can get and, even worse, makes you look vindictive. Is that really the impression you want to leave? Do you really want to trade a good piece of your reputation for a few fleeting moments of take-this-job-and-shove-it jubilation?Be professional. Give two weeks notice.
Like most people, you are probably under an "at will" employment agreement that gives you the right to walk out whenever you please. Don't do it. Give the two weeks, which is universally considered reasonable and comes at no cost to your good reputation.
If you do resign, tender your resignation in writing. Make it simple, polite, and direct -- professional. Something like, "I am writing to inform you of my resignation, effective on date ." That's all you need. Do not
include a grand, barbed explanation of why you're leaving,
which is especially tempting when you feel that your employer has wronged you.
When your employer receives a stack of resignation letters on the same day, they'll get the point. No need for you to draw circles around it or point to it with big red arrows.
Remember: When you leave, do so in a way that makes it clear to your employer that they are losing somebody valuable. Be professional.
Re:And at your next job interview... (Score:5, Insightful)
"They were treating me badly enough that I had to weigh what was more important: My self-respect or a paycheck. I came to the conclusion that I had to leave."
"How were they treating you?"
"They started by asking for more work hours and some time on call, because the company was going through some tough times. However, it grew to about eighty hours a week just in the office, plus 24-hour call with no compensation, appreciation, or acknowledgement of our effort. It also became clear that even if the company started doing better, they would view it as more economical to keep up the workload."
"That was unacceptable to you? You weren't able to negotiate a better position?"
"No, there was no room for negotiation. To provide service to the customers, we did it. It had to be done, customers were depending on it, and we collectively stepped up to the plate for the good of the company."
You see? Spin. It works for presidents, it can work for you. If there's one thing I hate, it's interviewers who think it's their job to rake you over the coals before you can join their golden circle of employment. Just because it's an employer's market doesn't mean you have to act like an ass.
deep financial shit? (Score:3, Insightful)
I was let go to but.. (Score:2, Insightful)
I spent the next 6 months self training and relaxing. I would send out a couple of resumes a week. One day I received a call from an old friend from work who offered me a new job making more than I made at the last place with a much better work environment.
Of course, I had plenty of savings, no debt (other than house) and was able to collect unemployment. If you are prepared, unemployment can be a very relaxing time.
One other point... (Score:3, Insightful)
If you do draw the line for management and they step over it, you pretty much have to do what you said you would. This is a life lesson of sorts... if people believe that you won't make good on your promises, they will come to assume that you are full of s**t and should be treated as such.
If you tell your employer "if I have to work more than 50 hours in a week I am not going to answer the pager/cell/phone if you put me on call this weekend", then make damn sure you do what you said you would.
Worse case you get fired and collect unemployment... but no matter the outcome, you'll be taken seriously.
Re:as good as it sound.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Scenario 1: Some of you leave, but not all
Result: The pressure mounts on the remaining folks, and now the pressure *must* cascade above and below, because if you're straining now, after you leave the others will be even more stressed. So now management starts to feel some of the heat, and other departments get wind of this poor situation too...
So, now even more people are getting pressured, stuff starts dropping off the table, and either the company figures out how to relieve the stress or in time they lose even more employees. Even if people don't quit, I've seen many 'sit-ins' at work where people just come in and screw off because they don't care anymore. End result, company is screwed if they are in any sort of competitive field, because they've been forced to sit on their ass dealing with internal IT issues while the competition gets stuff done
Scenario 2: You *all* leave (perhaps to a competitor if your non-competes don't interfere, and much of the time they don't hold water)
Result: As above, but worse. They can hire replacements right away, but even brilliant people in a new environment have some ramp-up time. Plus, if *any* of the previous people remain, these new people are going to be disheartened pretty quickly... the new folks won't quit (they need the job), but are they going to work with a song in their heart and their full mental powers engaged? Not likely. So the company either stagnates or continues to fall.
I've seen it happen *a lot*. Both my previous job, and to a certain extent my current position went through this. In my current job, we pulled back from the brink, made the best of a bad situation, and got management to (somewhat) "fix" things. We still went from 22 people to 4 people in my 'group', but we also changed the expectations and plans we had, and now my job is relatively stress-free.
Re:The IS version of Johnny Paycheck (Score:4, Insightful)
What is the matter with everyone? I know who I am, do you know who you are? What do you want from life? This discussion reminds me of a commercial that's currently playing on the radio. It's a world wide wireless commercial where this guy is playing golf with his boss. The narrator describes the perfect ass-kissing session. Then wraps up with the boss making a condescending comment to the employee. "He's getting noticed!" I say bull-shit! Life is not about climbing the corporate ladder, or kissing the right asses, or doing what's "proper" (something my step father always harped on). It's about friends, family, personal growth, and happiness. Are your priorities straight? What will you tell your kids after 20 years of 60 hour work weeks and three heart attacks when they hate you? I was providing for you? More important than paying the bills, or climbing the ladder, or saying the right thing in a meeting, or working long hours is simply being present for your children. Who will be your friends when you retire? Your boss? Your indian coworkers? What goals are you working toward? To make director by age 40? I have two main goals right now. One is to sell my house for enough money to pay cash for my next place to live. The other is to support my five kids while only working 75% of the year so that I can take month long RV trips with them in the summers and be home for every christmas vacation. These are attainable goals if you set your priorities correctly. If you hate your job, quit. It's not worth it. Find another one. Or change careers. But never lose sight of what's important. Like the other poster said, if you act like a door matt, people will walk all over you. The answer to the question above is perfectly acceptable. They treated me badly, I left. Saying this sends a message to the new employer that they can't treat you like dirt, which is what you want, right? Being a pussy and bending over for the new employer will set you up to be treated that way. If they don't hire you, so be it. Find something else. I've lost jobs because of this attitude. But I've been unemployed for only about 6 weeks total over the last three years. When I interviewed for my current position, I made it clear. Jerk me around and I'll leave. So far, I've been treated with respect. And I'll continue to work here as long as that doesn't change.
Re:What's really important for you? (Score:2, Insightful)
This is something said by people who don't have the confidence and heart to seek out a better position in life because it may mean hard times and sacrificing some of their quality of life for a while. However, those that are more enlightened realize that doing something that is rewarding and fulfilling, where you are appreciated, actually improves your quality of life much more than all the creature comforts of a steady employment position.
Be smart, have a plan, be professional (Score:3, Insightful)
Secondly, don't leave without a plan. If you have plenty of savings and job prospects then go for it. It would be best to line up a new gig prior to leaving the old one though. If you don't have savings and alternatives then its time to buck up and deal with the current situation. If you haven't set aside some cash, kept your fixed expenses low, and networked like hell then you deserve to be stuck. Learn your lesson and make plans to leave your options open in the future. There is nothing worse than being stuck in a shit job because you can't afford to leave.
Third, be professional. If you do leave just tell your boss that you have other opportunities that you want to pursue and give 2 weeks notice. Work hard and be pleasant for those two weeks. You will never regret acting professionally and you leave plenty of options open. You may want to work at this company again some day. You may want to use somebody as a reference. At the very least, you want people to think well of you after you leave. You never know where you will run into these people again. If you make an ass of yourself it could hurt you in the future.
Four, I would leave on my own and not as a group. Why throw fuel on the fire. Nobody can fault you for leaving on your own to pursue something else. Leaving as a group implies that you are intentionally trying to hurt the company. Its up to you but I wouldn't do it.
Last, be constructive and do things because they are what is best for you, not because you want to hurt somebody else.
Re:Maybe they should form a Union (Score:1, Insightful)
You only need to unionize if your personal value is close to zero. If you bring any kind of value to the company, and you actually work, then you can negotiate all of these things on your own. Unions are for the lazy and the incompetent.
Self Delusion (Score:5, Insightful)
If you are unhappy where you work, execute a job search and leave when you have another job. In the mean time, work with your bosses to see if you cannot improve the situation. If you do work with them and improve it, you will be happy AND you will be more important. If it does not improve, at least you have ammunition when you are asked what steps you took before deciding to leave at an interview.
Under no circumstances should you talk about leaving or hint that you are actively seeking another job. Their first hint should be your 2 weeks notice. Even if you think you are being nice, you really risk only creating suspicion.
Re:as good as it sound.... (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't know where you (or the others posting in this thread) have worked, but in most positions I've had there have been code reviews.
If your code isn't clear, much less well-commented, you get to fix it. If you just plain can't do it, you're out.
Why a "mass exodus"? (Score:3, Insightful)
If you are leaving because you are being exploited, then great; do what you would normally do when not happy: either leave now or find another job first and then resign.
But what is the point of the mass exodus? Are you trying to hurt the company? If so, then I see that as a big problem.
Are you trying to go off and start a new business with said folks? Then I suggest you take a measured approach: develop a business plan, get some contacts and/or contracts, possibly have a couple leave now to focus on the business while the remainders stay at the current (paying) jobs until there is stability in the new place.
If you aren't trying to go somewhere else with the group, then I really don't see the point to the exodus.
A bunch of posts here say "don't leave 'cause that'll look bad in an interview". I don't buy that at all myself. However, if you lead an exodus with no real (business) purpose then that WOULD look bad for sure.
Well if your country or ideology... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Result (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't need to be a union to walk out, neccesarily. Here in Canada we have something called "Wildcat strikes", where regular employees band together for a specific purpose and walk out.
The submitter would do best to contact his local labour board (and legal counsil) to determine his rights in this regard. If not properly researched, it's entirely plausible that his employer could fire his entire department as a result. Fired for walking out == no UI and a lousy reference.
Re:The IS version of Johnny Paycheck (Score:3, Insightful)
If you're going to leave, treat the people you're leaving (management) politely, and it will pay off later.
How about rent or a mortgage? (Score:3, Insightful)
You can go an flip burgers, but that won't pay your $1,200 mortgage payment.
Re:What if it DID work...for a while? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Communicate, people! Communicate! (Score:4, Insightful)
Every single company I have ever worked for in the IT industry, going back over about a decade now, has had asshole management. Every single one has had groups of pissed of grunts (or groups of lower mgmt as I progressed). I finally reached the point where I stopped and wondered what the common link was?
People who work in IT are, now the gold diggers are gone, generally slightly obsessive, lacking in social skills, nerd types.
The managers have next-to no social skills. The grunts have next-to no social skills. Add in to that the grunts used to be treated like gold dust and have entitlement complexes while the management hated that and are now getting their revenge.
The thing is, you can't change the management. Now the economy is tanked, they know you have no leverage over them. You can get together and talk about mass walkouts but the reality is, unless everyone goes, they can hire new and retrain - and probably for less than they're paying you. And you know that at least one of your indignant group will buckle for the job security. Walkouts are a nice dream for taking the power back but they're just that. There goes your one form of leverage.
So, if you can't change them, what can you change? Well, there's the other side of the equation. If shit ain't going to get better, it's probably time to learn to deal with shit.
Find a good anger management book [amazon.com]. It'll help you understand that anger is just stress manifesting with an anger trigger. Turning stress in to anger just leaves you pissed off and stressed. It'll help you learn to rephrase situations for yourself so you can dissipate that stress better.
One of the main things they'll talk about is the fallacy of entitlement. The notion of "should"s. You're probably reading this thinking, "Why should I have to be the one to change?!" Simple question for you: Honestly now, is there anything you can do to get them to change? Try thinking of three situations in your life where you've been yelled at and told you "should" change and have actually done so - do you think it'll suddenly work for your managers? If you can't get them to change, do you really want to just stay in the same stressful, unhappy situation?
Get a book, take a class, whatever, on anger management. It'll teach you to dissipate the anger so the next thing that comes up doesn't seem quite so bad. Once you're chilled, you might find better ways to get the change you want. Even if you don't, at least the fucked up job will be more tolerable.
Why should you help someone with no foresight? (Score:3, Insightful)
The company owes the employee a decent management team that doesn't run the company into the ground. If they can't hold up their end, all bets are off.
Re:Communicate, people! Communicate! (Score:5, Insightful)
No, but there sure is a small circle of executives who make those tough decisions while on the way to the golf club in their 7 series BMW for a nice lobster dinner. The company I work for just cut vacation. I get 1 week a year now. I also have to take it before the fiscal year end on 9/1. So there's now no time to accrue vacation before christmas. How nice. And those altruistic beings who are just looking out for the company? Let's see how quick they are to give back that benefit once the economy turns around.
There are a lot of individuals involved in the decisions to ask more hours of you, put you on call w/o extra compensation, etc.. Right now, one of your managers is probably talking to his superior, saying "well, I guess we could ask W and X to handle those few extra on-call hours... it sure sucks, but they seem to be okay with the increases so far, and someone has to do it. That should keep customers Y and Z with us, so we'll be okay on payroll through this quarter, at least."
Talk about a major case of rose colored glasses. When these wonderful managers mismanage the company into the ground, then ask me to clean up their mess, should I?
You have to ASSUME that everyone is on your side from the very beginning, and start talking to your manager, their manager, etc.. Let them know that you and the other grunts are starting to give under the strain. Find out what the problems of the company are, and talk about how the company is dealing with them.
Have you ever had a paycheck bounce? I have. Have you ever had your employer siezed by the IRS for failure to pay payroll taxes? I have. Have you ever been promised bonueses on eight separate occaisions and received a fraction on one only once? I have. Have you ever been fired because your manager thought you were better than him? I have. Have you ever gotten in trouble for not predicting the future or reading someone's mind? I have. Have you ever predicted a project's failure months and millions of dollars in advance? I have.
Have you ever been warned before your employer goes out of business? I never have.
Employers are not on your side. Ever. There are only two possibilities. If it's a private company, they're on the owner's side. If it's a public company, they're on the shareholder's side. Never yours. You are a commodity to be exploited however possible, no matter what the HR propaganda says.
Instead, decide where your breaking point would be, and discuss it reasonably ("if this happens, I'd really have to leave, and neither of us wants that to happen"). You are NOT making threats. Make this clear. Explain that you will keep your manager informed as the situation evolves, and that you will not leave without warning.
And you'll be the first to be laid off. Employers want sheep. If you want to keep your job, act like one. Tell them nothing because they're certainly not volunteering any information. If you don't like your job, find another one. But never let them know you're looking. Otherwise, they'll remove you before you have the next job lined up.
Like it or not, you're in a business relationship with your employer. One in which you're at an extreme disadvantage. If your employer wants to cut your benefits, they simply say, "Well, things are tight, so we're zapping vacation this year." Can you imagine what would happen if you did that? "Well boss, you've been working me harder so I'm going to take an extra week of vacation this year." After the laughter subsides, they'll replace you.
The work culture in this country sucks. And it's time for a change.
Re:What's really important for you? (Score:2, Insightful)
The "you're lucky you even have a job" attitude is a horrible one for any manager or executive to have. It virtually guarantees that people will start jumping ship as soon as job market starts recovering.
Managers need to let their employees know what's going on - why they're being asked to do more, how that helps the business and the bottom line, what other sacrifices are being made, and whether there is a light at the end of the tunnel. If it just sounds like management is doing all this to keep their $250k salaries coming for an extra 5 months, then start looking now.
If it sounds like the company will survive, why not try to negotiate an equity stake as compensation for the extra work?
DD
Re:Result (Score:2, Insightful)
Unless its real bad, but having another job lined up before quitting your current one can not be stressed enough.
-Craig.
Be Machievelian about it. (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, here is the hard part.
Say NOTHING.
No contact, period.
Just leave, dont look back, accept no messages, open no mail, just send it back unopened. If your entire crew does that, you can insure that your former boss is toast. One thing that people do naturally is talk too much. Silence is power.
If you keep quiet, the HR department will be ORDERED to find out what happened. Meanwhile your group picks a single person who is NOT an employee to do all the talking for your side. If you let multiple people talk, they will turn your words against you. It also prevents you from being served with a lawsuit notice.
That person meets with HR off the premises alone, and gives them a single list of complains attributed to the group, without specifying individuals. HR will demand to speak to employees before anything happens. Resist and let them replace you if nessesary. Do NOT allow anyone from your group to speak with them for any reason, no matter how trivial.
The frustration will be directed at your Boss who is still there. Their ability to manage people will be questioned. There could be no other conclusion, due to your extreme position in not speaking with them. Your company will start looking for your boss' replacement while he is looking for yours.
You may never get your jobs back, but you can insure that the pain you cause your company will cause your boss to lose his job too. You need to decide just how far you are willing to take this. If you are just pissed off, you will get no satisfaction. If you are committed, you might be able to inact some sort of revenge on your former boss.
Look around at your group. If you have any pussies in it, forget the above and get back to work; you fucking slacker, you.
Re:Result (Score:5, Insightful)
this is the single most important thing that has ever been said on slashdot.
All of you need to remember this phrase. I dont care if your boss is your best friend, you have been there cince day 1, whatever...
when it comes down to the wire they are not and never have been loyal to you as an employee. They will can your ass with as much regret as not having chicken salad for lunch.
you as an employee mean nothing to them (management) because if you did, you would have been promoted into management. (and then you still mean nothing.)
Remember 2 important things.
1 - they do not own you. no matter how they try and make you think that.
2 - YOU are doing them a favor by working there, not the other way around. You were the cheapest they could find at your skillset. if there was someone cheaper, they would have hired them instead. and your replacement will walk into the job at a pay rate that you are at now or a little higher.
Dont trust your employer, dont be loyal to your employer, and do not under any circumstances forget that you are making money for them by doing them a favor in showing up every morning and using your skills and talents.
Your get drunk with your buddies (Score:2, Insightful)
Will you teach them a lesson? Yes; you will teach them that they can find cheaper people that are silly enough to work the long hours without complaint (for a while). You will help them fix their financial problem and/or help them to an ealier demise. But the chances of them begging you to come back like your were an abused spouse is probably pretty low.
Instead, I would opt for the 'fsck the bank I work for' mentality and go home when your tired, and live a happy life. When something better comes along, take it.
Re:The IS version of Johnny Paycheck (Score:4, Insightful)
The correct A is of course
"A: it became obvious that I wasnt going to fufill my potential at the former employer so I'm applying somewhere with more management vision"
This all also depends on country. In much of Europe in that situation its more effective to exercise the right to secret ballot to unionize the office.
(Especially if the parent company is american because US unions are a bit different and some US employers have series mental scars from meeting them and the results of the word union in their presence is a kodak moment 8))
The other question raised is whether you would break the company. In which case its a shame the execs havent actually had the decency to call everyone together and explain precisely how far there is between the shit and the fan and what has to be done about it.
Re:Result (Score:4, Insightful)
While you're lounging, your former teammates are cleaning up after your mess. Oh yeah, and remind me to blacklist you as broadly as possible."
... and from anonymous coward in reply to same grandparent: " That's just asking for Trollbait moderation. The rest of the country pays taxes so you can sit around and have a "good time"? Asshole."
Two things, if he's collecting unenployment, it means he didn't leave under his own accord. Secondly, it often happens that a person can't find a job that pays as much as unenployment. Why work a meanial job when you look for a better one and get paid as much or more doing it?
In responce to the cleaning up the mess crap, most contract jobs last only six months. Also, if he did bad work at previous jobs, the next employer would hear about it while checking backround. Idiots.
Re:I took the shit, the result? (Score:2, Insightful)
If they slow or partially strike, only keeping people where they are needed absolutly to prevent that, then those few would be worked to death themselves.
Thats the real peroblem there, their hands are tied because the only people who can really be made to suffer by them are the patients, and thats exactly who they became nurses to help.
Of course then again, I supose if they really struck the doctos would just have to pick up the slack and do all the nurses functions. That would be poetic justice.
But ask any nurse and they can tell you what would happen if you left all the nurses chores up to doctors... people would die even faster
-Steve
Re:It's called an "union" (Score:3, Insightful)
Unlike some of the rabid pro-union activists [slashdot.org] posting here, you make some very good points.
However, most of the crap and exploitation pulled by the managers is illegal. Working extra hours with no pay? In most of the first and second worlds, that's strictly illegal, unless covered by a specific employment contract provision. (and even then, it's often not considered an allowable clause)
Most unions I see today exist for two purposes: The well being of the union (first and foremost), and the exploitation of the company for the increased benefit of the workers. Both of these are bad.
The first is pretty obvious. People repeatedly ask me why the second is bad though, and you've hit one of the two nails squarely on the head.
1) The union should exist for the well being of the employee and the company both.
2) The union should ensure that the employee gets treated fairly--not better every year than the one before.
This second point is a bit awkwardly written, but I can't think of a better way to word it. When I hear about unions bargaining tools, they invariably want:
- better BASE pay (above and beyond cost of living and merit increases)
- better benefits (with no regard to the current benefits package)
- absolute job security (creating a disconnect between performance and security)
Now I will be the first to jump up and down about fair pay, good benefits, and just job security; but unions seem to be pushing hard to make sure that every year increases their well-being at the expense of the company. Furthermore, they do it by invoking/enforcing the dual image of management as utterly evil capitalists, and non-union workers as helpless opressed slaves. This is just crap.
Good, working unions aren't a bad thing at all, but they're needed rarely these days, and are almost entirely non-existent.
Re:Result (Score:2, Insightful)
"Lifer" colleagues of mine who thought that there was more in the relationship than mutual exploitation (with most of the power on the employer's side of the equation) had shocked looks on their faces when they were unceremoniously booted out the door.
Me, I work hard, do a good job, but monitor the warning signs and am ready to jump before I'm pushed. I've only had to do it once in a very long career. But if you don't have a "fsck you fund" built up that allows you to walk out when they start taking advantage, you are unprepared. If you do have it, and they know it, you'll find that you get more respect. If you show signs of weakness or dependency, they'll use that leverage.
Re:Maybe they should form a Union (Score:3, Insightful)
1. Many in IT have an elevated sense of their skill's value -- they've been conditioned by society to believe in the "rich geek" myth, despite the fact that only a small fraction of the real geeks out there make more than 100K (and most are way, way down in the 30-50K range these days, if they even make that). So they have a sort of weird, "industry player" mentality, despite the fact that they're actually besieged by a crummy economy and lousy employer practices, and have no power whatsoever.
2. Many of the IT staff I've met don't like unions because it reminds them of their father's "day jobs" and the idea of turning out like their fathers (30 years at the same shop, standard work week, etc) horrifies them on at least a subconscious level. This is an ego thing. They want to be hip, trendy, capitalists, and talk about money. It's all go, go, go. They don't want to be hippie socialists! They're professionals! Meanwhile, all us hippie socialists are on vacation or working our humane, 40-hour work-weeks, spending time with our kids (who actually recognize us and don't call the nanny "mommy"), and wondering why the non-union guys have such a stick up their butts. Then, we live to a ripe old age, retired and fishing, long after all the stress-freaks have died from heart attacks, cancer, and aneurisms in their '50s after a joyless life of overwork. It boggles the mind -- but I'm getting sidetracked.
3. Many of the people in IT tend to think that they're going to be denied raises and perks because a union is seniority-based. But they don't factor in the fact that they're not getting raises and perks these days anyway. At least in a union, they'd have a standard yearly raise, but they don't see it. And, how are they going to get raises and perks when their position is outsourced? If they were in a union, it'd be really hard for the company to get away with that.
Add it all together, and IT staff are just basically hobbling themselves because of myths and nonsense. Their lives would be SO much BETTER if they were unionized. Their quality of life would improve by leaps and bounds. It's frustrating, because even when you tell them what they could have, they just shake their heads, squint their eyes, and say, "yeaaaaaah... whatever". Oh, well, what can you do?
It's pointless, because hardly anyone will listen, but here's another try:
IF YOU UNIONIZE, YOU'LL USUALLY GET:
1. A 40-hour work week, with time and a half for overtime, double time on sundays and holidays, and the potential for even MORE when holidays and weekends and overtime converge.
2. Full medical, dental, vision, and mental health benefits.
3. A REAL retirement plan -- a full pension, not some wussy 401(k) that'll be plundered by the CEO at first opportunity.
4. Enough sick days and personal days during the year to keep you out of trouble if you get put on your back by the flu.
5. Regular raises to match the inflation rate (at least), so you're not losing money over time due to the economy.
6. Most important of all -- a grievance procedure for those times when a manager forgets himself and tries to step over the line. When you're in a union, they HAVE to treat you with respect, or it's their ass. This alone is worth unionization. It also means you can't be fired unless you actually do something to deserve it, and layoffs can't be handed down without the company going through a whole negotiation process.
Being in a union means you're treated fairly, whether the company or your manager likes it or not.
Being in a union means that you're not alone against management -- you're shoulder to shoulder with all your coworkers (and, of course, the tens of thousands of p
Rose-colored glasses (Score:3, Insightful)
Ah, that cursed optimism of mine. Just can't shake it.
The funny thing is, though -- it can work. If you just scheme against management, they will know it and not feel any compunction at all about giving you the boot.
If you try to work with them (and yes, maybe help them clean up the mess, but also help them prevent it from happening again), it might not work (and you can usually figure out pretty early on if it's failing, and bail before you get yourself into trouble!)
There are companies where the intelligent, considerate but persistent person can really get ahead. There are companies where s/he doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell. Start slowly to find out where you are... and if you're the snowball-in-hell, you can either start stabbing backs and scrabbling, or just lay low, wait out the poor economy, and move on when you can.
Be wary of the Phyrric victory (Score:2, Insightful)
There are a couple of important things you might want to think about before having a mass walk-out at your current company:
Why the mass walk out? Is it to "teach management a lesson" and make yourselves feel better? If so, you should probably realize that everyone is better served if the people who are dissatisfied simply find other jobs (or don't find jobs if they have enough cash to ride out some unemployment) and leave in an orderly fashion. Give your two weeks notice, go to your next job, and hopefully you'll find yourself in a better situation.
Staging some sort of apocalyptic last battle that leaves the company IT department in shambles might be fun to fantasize about and possibly even fun to execute, but you really need to think about what actual benefits this will provide. Possibly some of the people who quit are now unemployed and under the gun to find something else. Possibly there are some people left behind in management who were actually all right folks who are now in a really hard position. Almost certainly anyone who is left behind to pick up the pieces isn't going to be a terribly useful reference for future work.
In a situation like this it is key to determine what value there is in striking a "victory" against your old department. A Phyrric victory is a victory where so much damage has been done to all parties involved that is is hard to actually call the nominal winner a true victor. Adopting a scorched earth mentality might be a fun posture to adopt, but dealing with the consequences can be pretty unpleasant for _everyone_ involved.
I had to sit around and watch the company I built go to hell. The smart people just found other jobs, said their goodbyes, and went on to bigger and better things - everyone stayed friends. Other people chose to sabotage the operation by sending employee lists to recruiters, complaining about things that weren't going to change, and just generally adding to an already terrible situation. These people all left or got laid off eventually, but they also destroyed a number of professional relationships that did not have to end with their attachment to the original company.
In short, please leave your job if it sucks because life is too short to work at a shitty job (unless you're contractually required to stay like I was). However, take a moment to think about how you leave that job and be sure that your actions actually contribute to your long term happiness and professional development rather than just making you feel good when you tell The Man to take his job and suck it.
Re:Result (Score:5, Insightful)
Check your reasons, then act (Score:2, Insightful)
The key here is that we had specific complaints, specific solutions we wanted, reasons why those solutions were the right ones, and we also had sufficient numbers (well, the whole company) that they couldn't ignore the issue.
Make sure that you know your reasons for taking action. Make sure that you've identified the core problems, and that you've all tried to address them with management directly.
Then figure out what solutions you think will fix the problems. New managers? New company policies? What exactly would make your jobs enjoyable again, while still helping the company through its tough times?
Lastly, be careful before you make specific threats (i.e. you do what we ask or we're gone). Unless you really don't care about the company at all, I assume you don't want to really threaten -- you just want to make sure that they know you feel strongly about the problems, and that you will have to take action. Make sure you do in fact have sufficient numbers and sufficiently important roles in the company to back up any threats of action that you do make. If you just look like a few cranks, nobody will take you seriously.
But really, it comes down to looking as though you care, you want to work things out, and you just want to bring attention to the problems. Keep in mind that you're going to have to go over someone's head to reach people who can take action, and you may create some pretty bad feelings in the process. You may well end up making things worse, in fact, if you're not careful. But if you care about the job and the company, and you really think things are intolerable now, and you've made reasonable efforts talking to people one on one about the problems...well, then it's certainly time to do something about it.
Re:Unions - Not a bunch of bull (Score:2, Insightful)
They also tend to always promote those with seniority rather than those who do good work. Generally unions are great for folks who don't like to work hard, but an eager capatalist worker gets the shaft. Unions are a great thing when the company is trying to shaft you, but all too often they cause more problems for the company and the employees than they solve.
Parent shows why you should see a lawyer *first* (Score:3, Insightful)
Take this seriously, folks. Not every employer makes rational decisions about litigation.
Re:as good as it sound.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, if a potential employer contacts your former employer to get a reference, the worst the former employer can say is that yes you were employed by his company, and you worked from this date to that date.
He can write you a bad reference letter, but he has to give it to you, and you can read it before you give it to any potential employer.
Anything else is illegal blacklisting/slander.
Re:Result (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, sure...I've seen firsthand what unions do.
Unions keep the slacker from being fired who was found asleep on the day shift when the company prez toured the plant. Unions kept the slackers from being fired...until the whole place went under from being overloaded with slackers, costing Westbrook, Maine, hundreds of jobs.
go unions....
flex time? (Score:2, Insightful)
Back in the IPO-crazy days people had no problems working 70, 80-hour weeks. Now that we are back to reality, why do you ask for something that you will never get back - time. Time that you could have spent with your family, friends, etc. is worth more (to me) than extra 10k that you can probably squeeze out of the Co.
Why don't you negotiate flex time schedule for ALL IT people in your group.
Either ask for more vacation time or Summer Hours schedule where you get to leave earlier on Fridays, like 1 or 2pm. If they won't give you more money, the least they can do is give you more vacation time and more personal days.
One refinement (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Result (Score:4, Insightful)
Your boss requires you to work 50-60 hour work weeks without compensation. You and your co-workers are so fed up you want to just walk out. If you don't care if you get fired, and in fact wouldnt mind it as an alternative to quiting(mmmm unemployment) just start working EXACTLY a 40 hour work week to the second. Arrive at your desk promtly at 9AM work until your appointed lunch break, take a full but not long lunch break. Never ever ever ever eat at your desk or order food in. Leave the office for lunch every day. Finally, do just enough of your job to qualify as doing it. If you're in the middle of a line of code when 5PM rolls around stop, save your work, lock your workstation down and walk out the door.
If your employer complains or reprimands you point out that you are doing your job and doing it competently. If they want you to do more they need to compensate you for your work. Also, cite life events and create "plans" that are inflexible and preclude you from randomly working late. Kids/wife/sick family member work very well for this.
Basically, do nothing "wrong" but do nothing extra either. They'll either hook you up with a raise or fire you. Either way its on your terms.
Re:Why does Bush Hate America? (Score:1, Insightful)
Dude, there was never a substantial attack against us before 9/11. The Bush admin. does a good job of patting themselves on the back for keeping us safer, but if they did nothing after 9/11 there still would not have been any attacks.
Finances are the hardest (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm not good at saving and since my ex got the house in our breakup I don't have equity in much of anything that doesn't rapidly depreciate (car/computers).
I take at least 10% of my post-tax net pay and consider that off-limits. It goes immediately into long term retirement savings. This is above and beyond my 401K contributions. If I'm out of work I won't be contributing to long term savings so this is to fill that hole, but I found I had to take this out of my pocket first or I just couldn't learn to save it.
I cut my monthly expenses (rent, internet access, etc) from 40% to 30% of my net pay. No cable. One phone line. Do without heat or AC except in emergencies. The 10% saved went into paying off my credit cards and now goes into unplanned expenses. This also helps me become less dependent on those nice but unnecessary comforts so I won't miss them when I must cut to the bone.
I've started really being a tightwad about daily and spontaneous expenditures. This was where my biggest waste was. I now allocate only 10% of my net pay to food, gas, and these day to day consumables. If I have money left from this, I allow myself use it on computer books, dining out, and other spur of the moment luxuries. It makes it a very powerful incentive to save, but it was the hardest to get used to.
25% of my net goes to unplanned expenses. Car repair. Unplanned doctor visits. Rent and insurance price hikes. Stuff like that. This isn't to be used spontaneously, but it's not realistic for me to consider it "savings". Things will and have come up that have wiped out this pot of money and then some. But once or twice the pot has grown to more than $2K at which point I funnel the excess into savings.
The final 25% goes one of three places:
1. A kitty to pay expenses for eight months.
2. A pre-planned large purchase.
3. Long term savings.
The eight month expense kitty is a must have even if I wasn't considering quitting. I might get fired or laid off tomorrow so this is the biggest need.
The pre-planned large purchase is for something I need like a new car downpayment, a necessary computer upgrade, a training class, or a big birthday present for my dad's birthday. I keep it to one goal at a time and I know how much I need to save beforehand. It helps keep from getting carried away because I have $X burning a hole in my pocket.
Finally, if I have a full kitty and no preplanned item to buy on the horizon, I put the money into long term savings and don't think about it again.
It has taken me over a year to get disciplined enough to follow this method. There have been some suprises that have wiped out my plans. It's been really eye-opening to do this while I have regular income coming in. It's certainly not going to happen when I don't.
Finally, a couple of other things I've found are good to check out:
1. IRS filings. I paid someone to look over my returns for the past three years which I had self-filed. Good thing I did.
2. Credit rating and fico score. I was suprised that mine wasn't quite as pristine as I expected it to be (and VERY suprised at who had requested it)
3. Medical and dental health. Make sure that your in good shape because these expenses and health insurance will be much more expensive if not part of a company plan.
It's been more than a year to get in financial shape, but having not found a better job in the meantime I'm glad that I've been setting this money aside. Come my next paycheck I should have enough financial cushion to say goodbye if I want to.
One thing I decided to do though: Don't burn my bridges. I'm not going to write a goodbye manifesto to embarass
I want to make no more $$$ (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Result (Score:5, Insightful)
Written like someone who has never had to lay someone off. A good businessman will be willing to make hard decisions, but that doesn't mean he will have no feelings of regret.
"do not under any circumstances forget that you are making money for them by doing them a favor in showing up every morning and using your skills and talents."
I don't know about that; I know quite a few people that must cost their employers more money than they bring in. They do not "do their employers a favor" in showing up. Why aren't they fired? Not every employer is a ruthless business tycoon who can be modeled as a "rational man" decision maker. Spend a little more time working in the private sector, and perhaps your "black and white" take on the employer/employee relationship will be a little more realistic.
Re:Result (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Result (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Welcome to America! (Score:2, Insightful)
Does it sound silly and petty? Yup. But so is making you work without getting paid for it.
Kierthos
Re:Parent shows why you should see a lawyer *first (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Result (Score:3, Insightful)
My employees saw me mortgage my house to meet their payroll. They knew I was not taking any money from the business and that paying them was 1st.
in the end they knew that I was rare and did care when I had to let 1/2 of them go, with a promise they know I would keep.... in the future when things get better they have a guarenteed job here. I'll bet 50 bucks you would never do that. I have yet to meet a manager that would. yes I owned the company, and yes I am rare in the fact that I fought tooth and nail to keep it alive instead of taking the cowards way out and sell to the competition for a tidy profit while flipping a big finger to my employees.
Yes I have had to fire slackers... and I told them why. but I at least had the balls that all of the CEO's I have ever met dont. cut my pay to pay my workers, because THEY are making my money for me.
any businessman or manager that does not know this is a very poor manager
without all your employees.... you are out of business.
Why not Union? (Score:3, Insightful)
An old employer of mine had a mixed staff: some union, some not. I worked in the analytical lab: one of the dozen or so instruments was designated "union." While I was there, Union Employee X was the only person allowed to touch this instrument. Luckily, Employee X was a hard worker and a decent guy: he even trained one of us to do samples on the QT so that everything wouldn't back up for 2 weeks while he was on vacation. The two previous iterations of X were not. They would come in in the morning and run the dozen or so samples their contract required. Finished by 10AM, they then read the newspaper the rest of the day. Too bad if you were one of the ~10 labs that needed a sample analyzed: you just had to wait until it got through the queue.
My personal favorite: distributing liquid waste cans was a union job. If you needed a waste can, you walked to the end of the hall and filled out a form and a union employee would bring you one eventually. Where were the new waste cans stored? Under the table with the form. But don't touch: I got reprimanded for carrying one back when I had forgotten a request the day before and the HPLC was about to overflow.
They didn't even do well by their employees. Shortly before I started there they went on strike despite wages and benefits well above the industry average. The company hired the salaried folks to work extra hours to keep up production. Productivity soared, errors dropped, and the union eventually slunk back to work with the same contract as before but no worker paychecks for a number of months.
Re:Unions - Not a bunch of bull (Score:1, Insightful)
For example, plumbers, electricians, and other blue collar workers tend to compete against others in the field. While they may be unionized, they are frequently not in the same company. While I realize in the past that some union bodies put caps on the population of their workers (or rather ratio to work load/jobs), I don't see that so much in these trades where I am.
In industry, it can be another matter. Autoworkers, food industry, e.g. Hershey foods, even teacher unions, I sometimes scratch my head. The demand to enter the industry itself is not restricted but the unions make it so (where I am, teachers are in great surplus; I realize that is not the case in all places (US)) but these unions tend to prevent new, adaptable workers from entering (worker monopoly almost). I don't really disagree with these unions, but sometimes their demands and actions are unreasonable and occasionally just outlandish. They frequently compare their salaries to executives and management, which is stupid, since to the common person, the union workers salaries are outlandish, and exec and management salaries almost all are considered ridiculous, so comparing one to the other really just undermines any effort the unions might have of appearing reasonable.
But where I hate unionization is at the professional, post graduate level, e.g. doctors unionizing. Makes no sense. There is already built in cap in several areas of the profession--entry to medical school is limited due to certification of schools. Residency positions are often limited (but not always, esp. primary care). Fellowships, et al. are limited.
They know this. They already use this to their economic advantage (which is fine). They get 6+ figure salaries by default (their salaries are fine); this coincides with their claims of long training (college, md, residency minimum). But again, they know all this; that's why they are already paid the big bucks. Control entry to a specialization, and the demand far outstrips supply of that service. And yet the profession continues to control entry into the field, often to the detriment (underserved areas such as rural and true inner city) of people they are suppose to help. And they still aren't happy? Give me a break.
They are already represented by hordes of associations (AMA is the biggest but slowest). And they seem to misunderstand that they already, by nature of their restricted entry training and professional, control their market and industry.
To me, this is like the RIAA or MPAA execs getting together and unionizing. wtf
Personally, I'd rather the states lift the licensing BY NUMBER restrictions on MDs and academic institutions. Then if they want to unionize, fine.
Re:Result (Score:1, Insightful)
Loyality and business IF YOU ARE A WORKER and nothing more does not mix, you are absolutely correct. This may be a strange, thin line here, but really, workers are not really business entities unto themselves. They work on the same principles of businesses (pay for services/work) but are not in the end a business. You are not in business except for the paycheck for the work you do, not to profit beyond that or selling goods or services to a separate third-party. Again, the line may be difficult to see, but legally and conceptually it's not that hard to understand.
As worker, you must look out for yourself, and to that end, I agree with you.
But loyalty and business, true businesses, ARE ESSENTIAL. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a stupid idiot. I am not saying there will not be times where loyalty may have to be set aside for advancement of a company, but on an exec to exec or management to management or company to company level, it's absurd to think otherwise. Most of the fortune 500 companies are where they are because of loyalty to friends, relatives, alma maters, etc. Sure, there are plenty that fail, and these companies are the minority to all the companies that have collapsed, but loyalty is damn sure an essential, necessary element.
It just may not and certainly understandably should not be the only requirement to be sufficient for business success.
Quit Slave Mentality (Score:1, Insightful)
Do not be scared by lack of money.
Just put aside enough and then tell your
greedy asshole boss to go fuck himself
(politely if you're still in good terms).
If you have a mortgage/family, well you only
have yourself to blame for the shackles
around your ankles.
Free your mind and the rest will follow.
Re:Result (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Result (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Result (Score:4, Insightful)
Less smoke breaks, bathroom stops, lunch, tea time, cube-aisle conversations about the latest ballgame/hot vidcard/cute intern...
Re:Why not Union? (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm not saying there aren't some annoyances in union shops, but they're minor compared with what non-union guys have to put up with. These days, being in a union is pretty much your only shot at enjoying a reasonable working lifestyle. And, if some unions, far and few between, are mismanaged, well, isn't it that way with all human organizations?
Think about it (Score:3, Insightful)
One individual in a large team, maybe. A large team with thousands of man-hours invested in a given project? Not likely. The company could never replace the collective experience it lost, and even a replacement project team of the smartest hackers in the world would be hard pressed to catch up for months.
If there was cheaper labour around who could do the same job just as well, wouldn't the company already have hired them instead? I thought you had "at will" employment in the US?
If this sort of stuff is happening, then (a) it's probably worth a mild pay cut to get out if necessary, and (b) within a few months you aren't likely to have much of a job where you are anyway.
I've seen this before. Typically, in companies that survive, a few good people leave, management wakes up to the fact that conditions are not acceptable to the workforce and those who remain get an improvement in pay and/or conditions that is enough for them to stay. If management doesn't wake up fast enough, too many good people go, and the project fails.
Re:Communicate, people! Communicate! (Score:3, Insightful)
While I totally understand where your frustration comes from, not everywhere is like that.
Fortunately, it's a happy coincidence that a well-treated workforce is a more effective workforce. Keeping your staff sweet isn't just good manners, it's also good business. By cutting you down to only one week of leave, your employer has all but guaranteed a burnt-out workforce who will repeatedly take sickies within months, until they all quit because of the stress anyway. Even if they stick it out, they'll be out the door in a heartbeat when the market picks up.
The smart employer looks at ways to improve things for their staff as a priority. Happy staff are productive staff, and benefits follow. Some perks are effectively free if your working conditions don't prevent them: flexitime and pillow days come to mind. A few extra days of leave each year, or a $100 bonus to everyone in the product team when the release goes out, do cost, but they pay back many times over.
Although you seem to have had a particularly bad experience, there are smart employers in the world. The workforce owe it to themselves to go find the smart employers, so they can be more successful than the stupid ones, who will then go out of business, improving the overall smartness of management by evolution. :-)
Bottom line (Score:2, Insightful)
Because, believe you me, this is *exactly* how they feel about you.
Don't raid your retirement account! (Score:2, Insightful)
I was agreeing with you right up until you suggested using your retirement money to buy Doritos and pay the rent.
So you use up your retirement account to get by until you are earning again, at which time you start replenishing your retirement, until the next layoff. Rinse, repeat, and soon you are 60 and have about 5-7 years to make up 40 years of mortgaging your future.
There is no replacement for compound interest in saving for your retirement, and treating that money like a revolving loan means certain doom for your future. Once the money is in your retirement account(s), you must forget you ever saw it and leave it there to do it's job, which is to ensure your survival after you are no longer able to work. Planning for a rainy day is not a job for retirement funds!
Re:Parent shows why you should see a lawyer *first (Score:3, Insightful)
My sympathy is utterly useless but you have it.
If anyone needs a concrete example of how bad things can get, one company sued a group of executives who left and sold a product that their former employer had failed to develop. The argument? They said that the knowledge of what approaches were dead ends was a trade secret. Yep, the former employer said they'd succeeded because they stole the former employer's secrets of failure.
Some of the defenses you can use are on the business side, not the legal side. They're also often out of the question:
o Leaving on a warm, fuzzy basis. That's about as rare and difficult as a "friendly divorce".
o Working in a field outside the former employer's business. Tough to do while using your professional skills.
o Not working for reptilian psychos in the first place. If only they came with warning labels
Re:Result (Score:3, Insightful)
A boss will hate seeing one of their people go. I've been there, and when management hands down the edict that 2 people from the dep't have to be let go in order to keep the budget balanced, one agonizes over those two people. But the boss's boss doesn't, although he has a sense of regret for the skills going out the door. The ones they do care about are those people who are highly-skilled, well-known in the company, and are leaving the company because of the massive layoffs. And those they try to buy back.
If there are fewer than 50 people in your company, chances are good any layoffs will be an incredibly painful decision for management. If you have more than 500, it becomes more of a numbers game and far less of a "we rely on so-and-so so she can't go" issue.
But corporate management culture is its own thing. The guy you're laying off today is going to be your boss or co-worker tomorrow. It's crazy how incestuous a culture corporate management is in many states. Most of them (I say "them" as a former manager who defected back to "pure tech" and intends to stay there) have a very "live and let live, don't hold grudges" attitude. Pragmatic and helpful for them, but the average Joe Worker generally isn't so aloof about his job.
Of course, this is stereotyping and every person is different. But as a rule, I don't believe that, in general, upper management at large (>500 workers) corporations really care about the plight of their workers -- they care only about how the plight of their workers affects their bottom line.
Unemployed (Score:2, Insightful)
Exactly. People acting immorally 'cause they can. (Score:2, Insightful)
What's the difference? People are acting like shits either way, and they're both doing wrong, but you also have to look at where the harm is. Do I harm the company by demanding more money and benefits? Maybe; they factor that into their costs. If they can't make money the company tanks. But: the executives do the same thing whether the economy is good or bad and often, these days, drive the company into the ground themselves.
On the other hand if the company squeezes the employees, the employees suffer not just hurt, but harm. They don't like the stress; yeah it's unpleasant, but there are also real-world effects from this stress. Their health suffers. Their families suffer. When the employee comes home and has half an hour to eat, clean house, discipline their kids and try to come down from a bad day, something important is going to get skipped. Their children end up being raised by Jerry Springer and MTV. A frustrated employee lashes out at their spouse, their kids, and everyone they encounter. That anger passes into society, and the poorly-raised children grow up to commit crimes, or have emotional problems. People have all this money and no time to spend it living life, so they throw it away in empty consumerism. The employee is now driving a vehicle twice the size of a '75 Buick, and the environment is filled with pollution and garbage as all this crud spreads throughout the world.
All due to the greed of the company.