Ageism in IT? 861
Embedded Geek writes "It's hardly a new topic, but BBC is running a story about ageism hitting Gen-X, especially in IT. As a 34 year old coder, I was horrified to hear a quote from a *hiring manager*: 'In the IT sector (and coding in particular) younger minds generally work faster -- I would rather employ a keen teenager who code programs computers quickly than an older person.' It didn't help that the person is 32 years old. My kneejerk reaction, the same one anyone else over 30 would have, is that the guy is a buffoon (I'll withhold my preferred, spectacularly vulgar, term). The problem is that I do not believe his idiocy is unique - I have definitely felt the vibe when interviewing. It's frustrating, since Gen-X is finally shedding the media hyped 'slacker' stereotype only to run headlong into this garbage. Have any other Slashdot readers seen this? What is the youngest you can be before some PHB declares you fit for the scrap-heap? Other than stocking up on hair dye and botox, what steps can I take to prepare for the future? Share your war stories here." Ask Slashdot handled this topic over two years ago. Of course, this behavior could be explained away as economic concerns, as the decision to hire younger (and typically cheaper) employees can directly affect the bottom line. However, one has to wonder if the decision to go with less experienced programmers also affects software quality, in the long run. What are your thoughts on this subject?
Actually... (Score:1, Informative)
Ask anyone in HR . . . . (Score:2, Informative)
When available at a price within budget, a qualified person with maturity will get the job at a company worth working for. Why? Because every survey shows older workers are more loyal, more stable, and more willing to commit. I was at the hiring end for 10 years, and I endorse this point of view. When youthful energy is needed, hire on a contract basis, then get them out the door. Between the ages of 20 and 30, most intelligent people are looking for the very best gig they can find, which means they'll dump you in a second if need be. The older worker typically is not quite so quick to move, and gives you all the other premium character traits one associates with maturity to boot.
Fear not.
No substitute for experience (Score:3, Informative)
Somebody who is young and inexperienced but dedicated may be able to crank out a lot of code quickly, but at least in my field, (embedded systems) there is no substitute for having seen and solved a wide variety of problems. You gain a much better feel for what is the best approach to solving a problem, and how long it will take.
Would you really trust a 16 year old to code and deliver a critical app?
Re:The real deal with ageism (Score:3, Informative)
The reason why this age group is abused is because they let them selves be abused. Espectally in a competive market. They will go I am willing to work 60 hours a week at $10 an hour to get the job. Then when someone sees this person about to be hired they will go to the employer and offer themselfs at $9 an hour. So they can get the job.
Once people have a job. Then they can start looking for better paied ones. Because the issue of surviving is no longer a major issue now it is for improving their lives.
Re:young vs old (Score:3, Informative)
Certain jobs will always have ageism. Dot Coms - change and evolve too fast for many people to stay in date. Therefore a younger person may be able to do many things better than an old one. Experience has shown me that those are jobs that have a constant change (where ageism is) - for example, the web, TV shows (what shows beside soap operas and the simpsons have really long lives?) and what not.
Jobs such as programming code for the Dep. of Defense, programming code for mirror making systems at Honeywell Corp. and managing a sat. network - experience and degree are always more valued (and sometimes required). Ageism is not a threat - it is a sign of a normal healthy economy. People at age 40 should have a STABLE job (unless they can live with the risk that it will be harder to find work), not work for an internet startup that dies every 2 months (at least find a stable website - those that are stable, probably will be willing to take exp. over age).
Anyhow - nothing new here, ageism has been, always will be and probably will not go away for long time, regardless of money - startup's (companies) will always pick cheap while long standing is far more willing to higher for a long run.
(sidenote: A friend of mine works for Honeywell Corp. - He is almost 50 and has no problems with ageism - they even pay him to go back to school ever so often to stay up to date).
Much Research Done On This Topic (Score:5, Informative)
I was RIF'd in May 2001 just after the dot-bomb collapse, and was unable to even secure an interview. In the two years that followed, I netted only two interviews although I have over twenty years in programming. I know this had a lot to do with my age, since it was communicated to me through recruiters and other sources that longevity in the field directly translates into dollars. They see that hiring younger necessarilly means hiring cheaper.
Read the paper - it's all in there.
Re:Discrimination against short people! (Score:3, Informative)
Just like everything else in life though, there are advantages and disadvantages. A disadvantage is the local Zoo wouldn't let me buy tickets when I was 21. The lady behind the ticket counter said that my "mother" (pointing to my date), would have to buy the tickets, (apparently you have to be eighteen to buy a ticket to the Zoo... who knew). Talk about embarrasing. However, an advantage is that I'm eye-to-breast level with "average" height women, and have a legitimate excuse to be staring at their breasts.
Re:young vs old (Score:5, Informative)
Being an Engineer, not an IT person, I would have to say that the IT industry should take a look at other engineering disciplines. If you ever go into a shop where the older engineers are gone, and you have only young ones, run. As you get older, you learn more, and have more experience. What this buys you is that you'll see more of the faults in a particular design alot quicker than a newbie, and you'll probably have a solution quicker.
The older guys are around for a reason. They know their shit. You take that away, and who do the new people learn from? Their own mistakes, that's who, and in the mean time you get bug filled, problematic code.
but that's just my opinion, I could be wrong....
Re:Do younger minds absorb quicker? (Score:1, Informative)
On another note: I was an Intern for a large company in the Twin Cities last year, and we had internship meetings with other large companies (Target, General Mills...etc). For the non-computer companies, everyone was either a hot girl or a non-white. I wonder if those surveys are as voluntary as they claim they are. Affirmative action needs reform.
Job security (Score:3, Informative)
Depends on your skill set (Score:2, Informative)
My previous company had me cross-train as a Windows NT MCSE just before they riffed me. A 50-something MCSE with one year of experience is a bit of a joke, I found. (Not just in Slashdot-land, but in the real world, too!)
All of the web developers here are well under thirty, so your skill set seems to determine how your age is perceived. Java seems to be a "young person's" language.Re: Do younger minds absorb quicker? (Score:3, Informative)
At the same time they were being taught the songs of the homeland, these African Americans were also being exposed to European music and tonalities in the plantation parlors. When they got their hands on these instruments only designed for twelve-tone octaves, they mimicked the twelve-tone counterpoints they had heard in the parlors. But soon, they began commonly using adjacent half-step tones in interesting places not suggested readily by stacking thirds. On instruments a little less "well-tempered", the use of slurs or bends between these same points in the scales became prevalent. They were trying to play the in-between notes they remembered on instruments that were never meant to make them! This somewhat discordant (to the unaccustomed ear) sound became a staple in popular music and has dominated genre after genre ever since.
Young jazz players (Score:4, Informative)
Tony Williams was drumming for Miles Davis at age 17. Jason Marsalis was a recording jazz drummer at 14.
Development isn't the biggest cost (Score:3, Informative)
Ask any experienced programmer where the biggest costs lies, and they'll tell you it's fixing (or worst, working around) the crap left from rushed or ill-informed decisions made earlier.
And that experienced programmer would be wrong. Or at least need to clarify his statement. Fixing broken code is indeed expensive but it isn't the biggest cost of software. It might be the biggest cost of development, but it isn't the biggest cost a software company faces.
The biggest costs of software are in sales, marketing and support. You don't have to take my word for it. Look at the 10-K of any (profitable) software firm. Depending on the firm, 10-25% of expenses are in development and the rest is primarily sales, marketing and support. (the exact mix varies depending on the company) Any publicly traded company's financial statements will tell you, in general, that most of their money does not go into development.
This is why I think it is incredibly short sighted of companies to nickel and dime their development teams. Sure for a bootstrap operation it might be tight, but for an established firm, development is not where the costs are. (That's not an excuse however to get stupid with spending like a lot of dotcoms did) Development is typically just 15% of cost and it is what can actually differentiate your product. Cutting money on development is typically the last place you want to do it.
Re:In other news (Score:1, Informative)