12/7 and Overtime on a Salary? 932
over-timeout! asks: A company I work for (in the U.S.A.) had submitted a statement of work to a client, who waited for a month before signing the work order. The work order explicitly stated a timeline which would start from the time the order is signed. However, the client is insisting on the project being completed by a fixed date, as discussed with our company's management, instead of the deadline that starts from the signing of the work order. Although our company representatives tried to push back on the date, the client refused. Because the client is among our company's biggest customers, our company's management caved in and agreed to their deadlines. Management has told us meeting deadlines means that for the next month to six weeks all of the developers involved will have to work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week. The contractors involved are going to get compensated by being paid by the hour. But us salaried employees are going to get nothing in return for trading in what's left of our life so someone else in the company above us can make money. Obviously this isn't fair, but what are the alternatives in this down economy, where jobs are hard to find?" A related articles on this subject discusses suing for overtime, and California residents should find this companion article pertinent, as well. What can you do when management agrees to a timeline and a workload that may make your job, as a programmer, difficult-to-impossible?
Law of diminishing returns. (Score:5, Insightful)
12 hrs/7 days in a thought-intensive job is fatiguing (I know, I've been there and done that). After about a 50 hour week, you start hitting diminishing returns. After about 60 hours, in my experience, you start getting negative returns (the project actually starts regressing) because more bugs than good code is put in.
Is there a proper software process in the firm? I think not if they agreed to those sort of terms.
Re:They pretend to pay us... (Score:4, Insightful)
:p
Is this even legal? (Score:5, Insightful)
Seems like the first thing to do... (Score:5, Insightful)
Is the company entitled to expect you to make this sacrifice? No. But then again, you're not entitled to expect that they will continue to employ you.
Negotiate. If you resort to lawsuit, the only people who will make money are lawyers.
A steady paycheck (Score:1, Insightful)
As someone with unsteady income and two children in private school I must tell you: STEADy is nice sometimes
Strike (Score:3, Insightful)
Alternatives? (Score:5, Insightful)
Well .. you have several options:
- Do the work like a good worker bee
- Do the work, but piss and moan to
/. about it
- Do the work, but piss and moan to you supervisor about it
- Start doing the work while looking for a new job
- Quit immidately
Summing it upThe question to ask yourself is: "How much do I like my current job and position? ... and ... Is it worth the lack of a life?"
Just $0.00232 (after taxes)
How long for, future promotions, and any Perks? (Score:5, Insightful)
So 6 weeks? Is it limited to that? Because that's do-able. You work real hard, the end date comes and goes, and then its over- time to have a party.
Can you hold this over your managers head for compensation during the next performance review? It is worth a shot to mention it to him/her in clear language- I am a team player. I am busting hump. I want this reflected in my performance evaluations.
Also, are there any perks? Lunches provided on Sunday? Foosball table? Free movie tickets?
Maybe this should be suggested to management- 12/7 does NOT improve morale, and with tight deadlines thats when you need morale the most.
IF its only 6 weeks, this can be sustained. When it grows to 6 months, to a year plus, that is NOT sustainable. You break down. You wear out. Productivity goes down the tubes. And you break out into stress-related rashes. Its not a pretty sight.
Re:A steady paycheck (Score:1, Insightful)
Four more letters (Score:5, Insightful)
It's easy to say "oh, well just quit, then" when they situation is purely hypothetical to you. Unfortunately, not many of us are in a position where we can just tell our boss to get fucked, as much as we'd like to.
In the last year my department has been whittled down from eight employees to me and another guy. It sucks ass, but I've got to pay the bills.
Management contribution... (Score:1, Insightful)
Isn't this the primary, if not exclusive, role of management?
Seriously, Ed Yourdon wrote a book about your predicament, titled "Death March". Read it and survive.
rld
We all would love that to be true, but it isn't (Score:5, Insightful)
I have experienced this.. (Score:2, Insightful)
result? extremely poor code, things like code reviews and so-called "processes" chucked out the window (primarily by managers who insisted that we could make an exception this one time)
in fact, the client got so pissed at the amount of difficulty we had to stabilize our release that we (the company) got booted off their list of "IT consultants" (amid muted hoorays from us developers)
what did i and most of us developers get from all of this? a $50 gift card for some clothing store and about 3 months after that.. the pink slip, as the company needed to cut down on personnel costs.. hmmm.. i wonder why they weren't doing so well..
anyways, i changed tracks and got into academia and swore of "consulting"
Re:Alternatives? (Score:3, Insightful)
Also, because your company has committed to a fixed date, you and the other programmers might have quite a bit of leverage. Find out what the penalty is for being late and use that as a guideline of what your additional compensation should be.
As always, the company might fire you for not being a good slave, so be prepared.
MOD Parent up- he's got a good point. (Score:3, Insightful)
As long as your work product is not dependent upon others you can get a massive amoutn done when not going from meeting to meeting to conference call to meeting, etc.
Quit (Score:2, Insightful)
If they need you 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, it sounds like they need you more than you need them. We live in a free market, and everyone who complains about being a slave-wage is wasting that very freedom.
If you can't quit and if they are screwing you over, then you've had it easy this whole time, and they should have screwed you over long ago. If you just give in, there's nothing to stop them from doing the same to you again later on.
Here's what you do, tell them, "Hey, this isn't right. You need to pay me overtime. This is going to be a big job and you need me. This goes above and beyond, and I'm here for you, but you need to be here for me to make this work."
I know, I'm going to hear, "but the job market is so tough right now!" Well, if it is, then either stick with the long hours and be thankful you have a job (if the long hours is better than trying to find a new job), or start typing up that resume.
You're an engineer, this is a simple problem. I think you are just afraid of what the solution is telling you. If they aren't going to pay you extra, they aren't going to pay you extra. The next move's yours. It's your life, take charge.
Do the math (Score:5, Insightful)
Employees are generally useless after 60 hours. After 80 hours, I can only recommend bringing a videocamera and selling it to "America's Funniest Home Videos."
Negotiate with your boss for A: two weeks of paid vacation starting as soon as the ludicrous crunch time is over, and B: two extra weeks of paid vacation to be taken sometime in the future. If that doesn't work, look for another job. It's unprofessional to demand such hours with no reward, and it is unprofessional to give in to such demands.
It would also help morale if the managers who made this mistake also stayed 12/7, though I don't know if it will help your position of you pointed that out to them.
Know your state's labor laws. (Score:5, Insightful)
1) Threaten to quit and hope they don't call your bluff. If they call your bluff, you'll like like an idiot of you don't quit. See #2.
2) Just quit "in-force" and watch them panic. With any luck (and hoping your other team members do the same), they'll do what they can to retain you. Make sure you have something else lined up or you won't be able to collect unemployment.
3) Suck it up and look really hard for a new job and pray the fire you for poor performance (that way, you get out of any non-competes and can collect unemployement).
Well, there's a fourth option, that's to quit and join the consulting firm your company has hired. Of course, that may not work either as they may have a non-compete/non-hiring agreement with your company.
If you choose #3, be sure to do the absolute minimal amount of work, call in sick a lot. Complain of illnessess like carpal tunnel syndrome, headaches, dizziness, back pain. And, be sure to visit doctors to get these "illnessess" on record. Then, when they let you go, you nail them for creating an unhealthy work environment and take them to the cleaners.
Baring that...a measure of last recourse...be sure to mutter to yourself and yell "grenade" or some other war time saying whenever your boss walks in. And, cover yourself with water so it looks like your sweating profusely and having some sort of stress attack. It helps, of course, to have some real legitimate combat experience to pull this one off effectively. Alternatively, you can come to work wearing trench coats and talk alot about your cache of weapons you've been collecting with your other, less stable, coworkers (who also wear trench coats). Make sure your supervisors overhear you. When they let you go, sue for creating a hostile work environment as, I assume, you don't truly have a cache of weapons.
You can't "WORK" for 84 hours per week. (Score:5, Insightful)
Let me offer these idiots (the people requesting a 12/7 schedule) a piece of advice: 84 hours per week is f---ing insane. You wind up with diminishing returns after about 50-60 hours/week. While 84 (or more) hours is very possible for a week or two, such a schedule will QUICKLY become ineffective immediately thereafter. You might be at work for 84 hours, but your mind won't. Whoever is running this company doesn't know that, which means they don't know how to run a company, which therefore means that the company (or your department) isn't likely to be successful, which you should take as an indicator of its expected lifespan. Get out now.
Re:For good senior developers... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Four letters (Score:5, Insightful)
"hard to quit when you have mouths to feed, etc."? It's downright irresponsible in this economy. I'm all for the entrepreneurial spirit and I am certainly for the rights of the worker but to quit an IT job right now...without another job already lined up...is likely to spell 6+ months on unemployment and a lower paying job at the end.
I realize you are not saying the parent poster should quit but it just strikes me as funny that so many posters to slashdot yell "Quit!" as if jobs are growing on a 1990's-esque tree somewhere.
I think the better approach is to first ask yourself whether or not the employer has a history of doing this kind of thing. Do they treat you well when times are good and call on you to step up when times are bad?
Case in point: I recently led a small team developing a web application. The completion date was set by the customer even before we were able to analyze the requirements and once I had a chance to look at the requirements I told my managers that it would be really difficult to meet the date without working alot of overtime for an extended period of time. Management replied that their hands were tied (they were) and that we had to hit the mark i.e. I walked in this geek's shoes.
I had no choice. I wasn't going to walk out of my job on the off-chance that I might find another job. I'm salaried. I knew I was getting screwed, etc.
What happened: every step of the way, my management team was there fighting to get the schedule extended, attempting to reduce the requirements, etc. In the end, the schedule was extended by about a month and a half and a particularly troublesome requirement was dropped. Now that the job is done things have slackened off some, my team is looked upon favorably, nobody gives us hassles if we are not busy 100% of the time or come in under 40 hours for the week because they know that when push comes to shove we will get the job done and leave the attitudes, etc. for the project's post-mortem review.
So...if you are employed, like your job overall and management generally treats you well overall, etc. you might want to consider just biting the bullet for a the time it takes and go from there. The pendulum has swung from one extreme (the employee's market of the 1990's) to the other (employer's market of today) but it will eventually swing back towards center and, when it does, management will have, as Ricky Ricardo would say, "some 'splainin' to do". The fact that you stuck it out when times were hard can be leveraged into either a fat raise, new position or another job at a company that appreciates you more.
Re:Alternatives? (Score:4, Insightful)
They cannot make you stay and work once your contracted hours are over. Sure, if just you go home and everyone else stays then that's a different matter.... but if enough go home, they can do nothing but negotiate with you.
That goes double if you follow your boss out the door at 5:30
I suppose you can start working poorly, but that's hardly constructive, and the managers won't see it even if you write 'all work and no play make johnny a very dull boy' over and over in the code.
Negotiate (Score:2, Insightful)
As with any negotiations, before you meet you should have a concrete description of (1) what you want, (2) what you can tolerate, and (3) what you cannot tolerate. If the company can only offer you compromises that you cannot tolerate, you need to quit. You should make this clear to the management during your negotiation, so that they know where they stand. Your positions may be stated in terms of number of hours per week (for example can tolerate 50 hrs/wk; cannot tolerate 60 hrs/wk), or you could ask for other benefits - future pay raise, bonuses on completion, company stock.
Probably you will need to communicate through your immediate supervisor in the first case. However you can perhaps escalate the process up to the managers/decision makers, especially if you can band together with other employees who are also being asked to work overtime. In that case you will have to decide your negotiating positions together. This will strengthen your position.
If you get a deal, write it down and get it signed by the management. If you are making a deal to work overtime, make sure that there is a limit on the length of time you are expected to work overtime
Re:Demonstrating the need for IT Unionization. (Score:5, Insightful)
Acting collectively sounds good. If you all agree something needs to be done, send a spokesperson or two to talk to management about this issue. Make it clear that the current deal (working 12/7 without compensation) is unacceptable, and make it clear that you speak on behalf of the entire department or project team.
I'd stay away from proper unions, though. Unions, like almost every other established organisation, primarily concern themselves with perpetuating its own interests... and those may not necessarily coincide with those of the membership or workers in general! For example: a few times unions here have called a strike even after managements conceded to every one of their demands. The reason? Membership was dropping, and a bunch of angry workers picketing in front of a blocked factory gate would look really good on the evening news, they figured.
Our own firm has had some recent dealings with unions recently, none of it very pretty. We've had some layoffs, and unions were pushing for us to implement a 'last in, first out' rule. Managent didn't want that, and especially the employees didn't want that (they'd prefer the deadwood getting fired instead, on a merit basis). But, for, some reason, this rule is a big deal for unions. I'm happy to say they didn't have much influence, as they represent less than 5% of our workforce (mostly educated IT consultants).
Some last thoughts: Be rational about this! Don't start off by banging your fist on the table, but strongly suggest that the proposed work schedule is unreasonable, especially without any compensation. If they keep refusing to remedy the situation flat out, it's fist-banging time... but only if you all are prepared to take it to the next level, up to and including quitting. Because in the end, that is the only leverage you really have.
Re:Do the math (Score:2, Insightful)
Average pay of Tech Support/ Call Centre guy per MONTH = 10,000 Rs (Thatâ(TM)s a partly 200$ per month)
Average Hours worked per week = 75
Thatâ(TM)s 300 hours per month
So thatâ(TM)s 0.66$ per hour..Almost ONE TENTH (!) of the MINIMUM wage in the US. And all those people have four year degrees in Engineering or are MBA'S.
But then again you must be lucky to at least get a job in a place like India.....
Cancel contract (show they will lose money) (Score:5, Insightful)
They need to look at any penalities that will incur for not delivering on time, or delivering a poor quality product that would incur a lawsuit for delivering a poor quality product, and the loss of bussiness from this and other companies when you get a reputation for delivering poor quality products.
There is no way you will make the deadline, so be sure that they know the potiential for them to LOSE MONEY is greater than the possibility of EARNING A PROFIT on the contract.
The timeline unrealistic. Any bonus for being on time will not be awarded.
Expectation of quality from overworked employees is unrealistic. They will be spending money on fixing this thing, even if they don't get thier ass sued for a poor quality product.
Large potiential to lose any reputation you have for delivering on the above two.
The sad truth is that you are right (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, trying to keep employees primed at 60-80 weeks leads to burn out. The IT work load generally is cyclical as well. There is a killer deadline, people have to be give their all to meet the deadline...then there is a shallow period.
In the ideal world, companies would realize this and allow IT workers much more time off with pay during slow times.
Re:Demonstrating the need for IT Unionization. (Score:2, Insightful)
Right now, he has a choice. He can go to his boss and say "Hey, I want a raise" or "Lets agree to a set schedule of extra vacation later on this year" or "Fuck off".
If he were a member of a union, he couldn't talk to his boss about those things, he couldn't negotiate a deal on his own terms, he would be beholden to layers of beaurocracy to make deals for him. If he doesn't like those deals, he can't do anything about it, except quit.
If the employer doesn't want to play ball, then he has to strike, and lose money while the employer hires scabs (with the ease that programming can be outsourced, his job may never come back).
I've seen the damage unions do, it's happened to every union shop I've ever seen. You have employees that refuse to be flexible, management that is forced into hard choices, and companies that eventually go broke because of the silly games.
In IT and programming, flexibility is a part of life. Unions are the opposite of flexible. Suppose you are a whiz-bang programmer, straight out of college. You join a union shop, but guess what? You have to wait for the dinosaurs who don't know shit about modern programming to retire before you can even think about getting promoted. Unions eliminate any semblance of meritocracy that exists in a field, and reward things irrelevant to IT/programming like years of service at a certain company.
Sure, times are kinda tough in IT, but that's no excuse to unionize. Jobs are out there for the sufficiently skilled worker; jobs that don't require you to work insane hours unpaid.
Re:Demonstrating the need for IT Unionization. (Score:5, Insightful)
Unions are just a plain bad idea for technical skilled people, especially the most skilled people. We're not just turning screwdrivers.
I've been an individual contributor, a manager, and a team leader all within the same company, usually going where the need was greatest or my skills matched. About half of my managers were engineers (and some were good managers) and they too changed roles from time to time. Unions assume that it's management vs. the employees. In addition to being part of either group, I was also a part owner of the company (through stock options). When I got laid-off, I knew it was the only option for the company at the time. Yeah, I thought bad decisions had been made before that point (and obviously, I thought laying me off was a bad idea, but those are the breaks, I wasn't going to cry about it).
In addition to all that, I'd rather be free to negotiate my own salary, schedule, etc. Being part of a union would not help.
Anyway, please keep your unions to yourself. I like being independent and being judged and paid according to my own work. If I can avoid it, I'll never join a union. It's one of the worst things that could happen to my long-term career and compensation prospects.
Re:They pretend to pay us... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:They pretend to pay us... (Score:3, Insightful)
And now their public sector workers have been striking due to the prosed pension system reform, otherwise they may face 43 billion euro shortfall by 2020. They think that the government can make up for their slacking but you can't create something from nothing. For the compelete story, follow this link.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/06/10/fran
Re:Alternatives? (Score:2, Insightful)
- Do the work like a good worker bee
- Do the work, but piss and moan to
/. about it
- Do the work, but piss and moan to you supervisor about it
- Start doing the work while looking for a new job
- Quit immidately
- Pretend to work, while reading slashdot
Nothing beats the last option. You get to use the company resources to do what you like to, and even get a good name in the mgmt. for working hard on weekendsYourdon's Death March - read this book (Score:3, Insightful)
You've been invited to participate in a "Death March" project - if it fails, the company fails, if it succeeds, you ensure they're going to have you do the same thing again as soon as they find the right opportunity.
If you want to do something about it collective action is the only route and you're leaving yourself wide open to being replaced by contractors. I've been in this place before but I was a one man band
I don't see anyone posting who is looking at the bigger picture here. Software jobs are getting exported to places like India, where someone younger/sharper than you works for 25% of what you make. Are you nervous yet? This is the same thing that happened to manufacturing in the US in the 1980s and its going to happen to white collar jobs over the first twenty years of the twenty first century.
Globalization got you cheap tennis shoes and you didn't understand that they were going to end up on someone's foot planted in your behind, did you?
Don't be too hard on them, they're getting the same treatment from the management above them, who is getting it from the CEO, who is getting it from the board, who is getting it from Wall Street.
Re:Demonstrating the need for IT Unionization. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:They pretend to pay us... (Score:5, Insightful)
I make it a point to always leave at 5PM when I can. If there's some emergency or important project that requires me to stay late, I do so, but I make up for it by leaving early at some point in the future.
I suppose this is an advantage of working for the state (state university), but you have to remember that if you let work control you, you can never be truly happy (unless you're a workaholic but that's something else)
Work 9-5. If your employer abuses you, put up with it until you can find another job, then leave. There's no reason to put yourself through hell.
Re:Do the math (Score:4, Insightful)
I had a great manager while working on a difficult project: launching a new service for a mobile phone provider. The service was already heavily advertised and the delivery date was set in stone as a result. We had to work some nights and weekends (though nothing as bad as 12x7 for 6 weeks). The manager was around when we were... not getting in the way and being a pain, but checking if we needed anything like extra help or equipment specialists or the like. And in the morning, she'd come round with coffee and breakfast.
In the military I learned: "One leads from the front, not from above". This applies to management as well, and in general the managers who share their team's hardships become part of the team rather than standing above it. They are also the manager who will get the best results and rarely miss a deadline, because the team knows that the manager will be on their side, and that their pay rise and performance reviews will reflect their success. Sadly, such managers are far and few between.
Re:Law of diminishing returns. (Score:5, Insightful)
I've done non-code jobs where there were 12-hour shifts, and it wasn't a big deal - it *is* possible depending on the work. However, in my experience, writing code isn't one of those jobs where you get a linear increase in work done for each hour worked by an individual, and in my experience when you go past a certain amount of hours per day/days per week, you reach diminishing returns, then negative productivity.
From what I've seen, 60 hours/week with code is about the most before negative productivity begins to creep in. Also, consider the fact when you joined the military, you expected the sort of work you were given. When you sign a contract saying the normal work week is 40 hrs, 5 days a week and then are told to work a 7 day, 84 hour week (over double the hours) for no extra pay because management were too spineless to negotiate a better deal, morale doesn't generally get boosted meaning a double blow to the worker's productivity.
Re:Demonstrating the need for IT Unionization. (Score:3, Insightful)
How is this different then his current position.
Re:The sad truth is that you are right (Score:5, Insightful)
Why should they when they can save money by just firing them, and hiring more desperate programmers when they need them, or just not renewing contract employees?
It's win-win! Employees get their time off, and companies don't have to pay for it!
wrongful dismissal (Score:4, Insightful)
for chrissake... (Score:2, Insightful)
You know, for all you pussies bitching and moaning about how bad the economy is and how you got mouths to feed and bills to pay...
Just quit the goddamn computer job and go be a male whore. Seriously, if you don't have enough self-respect not to be someone's bitch, you can get a lot more money for your time getting ass-fucked by horny rich guys. No joke... you'll get to keep the big house, the fast car, the 2.5 kids, and have more time to spend with all of them as well. Plus your social life will probably improve, assuming you can adapt to the gay lifestyle.
Don't worry about your friends and family looking down on you. If you're already living a slave's life in fear of what masta will do if you stand up to him or leave, you're really not going to get much lower by turning to prostitution.
Don't Be Such a Wimp (Score:2, Insightful)
Being salaried means that you are not merely employed by the company; you are a part of it. If you can't be depended upon to deliver in tough times, what is your worth? You are salaried, but want to perform only the duties of a dayworker. Cowboy up, do some hours, get the product out the door. Lose that "Not My Job" attitude, and maybe you will gain some respect. And maybe get a raise or promotion, too. That certainly won't happen if your boss feels he must bribe you to stay after 5p.m.
Re:They pretend to pay us... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Law of diminishing returns. (Score:2, Insightful)
just make sure you are compensated.... (Score:5, Insightful)
I have been put in simular situations many times (though not as severe), and have never ever been refused compensation. Of course, I've had to negotiate compensation, often the management don't realise how much this will cost them. And when you do negotiate, do it up front, before starting the work. Oh, and make sure they know it is *not* negotiable. You need some sort of compensation.
Just remember, a normal day is 8 hours, so a normal week is 40 hours.
They want you to work 84 hours a week. Thats double. IE, in those 6 weeks you will be working an equiv of 12 weeks.
A few ideas:
* Get paid a bonus equivelent to 6 week wages.
* Get 6 weeks of paid leave.
* Some sort of combination.
* Be pepared to compromise a little...work 10 hour days, and get 12 days holidays (IE get back your weekend time, and work 2 free hours a day)
A few no-nos:
* a long weekend is not fair compensation.
* Providing you lunch on Sunday is not a "fair exhange" (How much are you worth?)
* Tickets to your favourite sporting match is not compensation.
I prefer the holiday option (time in luei), as I can spend time with family and friends.
Just remember...the managers are human too, and they do care. They are more likely to offer you the holiday option, as it doesn't cost them more. And they do understand that it is fair they compensate you for your time.
The thing to remember is to be firm. Don't offer or threaten to quit. Just tell them...yes, I will work the extra hours, but I expect to be fairly compensated for those hours. If they won't budge, work 8 hour days. They can't fire you for working what you were hired to do.
At the end of the day though, its your decision. Not the companies. If this is the life you choose to live, and you want to work for this company. Then do it.
I dont get it... (Score:4, Insightful)
Why the obvious political weight of the place is not applied to this situation.
Is the demand for work wrong? (I think it is.) Then name the damn company! (and the client) Better yet, put a link to their web site so they friggin notice.
The cat will be out of the proverbial bag then and all sorts of things might happen;
- the client realizes they are being dumb and backs off
- the company realizes a huge list of potential employees just decided not to work for them, and backs off
- potential purchasers of stuff from this client or company can avoid this product. I can tell already it's going to suck. What if it's the control system for the new Nuke plant... or computes YOUR salary or something, think about it.
- people can dig up facts about the laws in the state, county and city, forcing the company to back off
- they gotta pay for bandwidth, and the programmers can sit back and watch the smoke billow from under the server room door knowing something they did made a difference
Remember, it's not slander if they don't catch who said it, and it's not slander if it is true.
Re:This is not normal (Score:3, Insightful)
show up for work. send job offshore.
dont show up. send job offshore.
take a vacation. send job offshore.
apply for a job. it gets sent offshore.
quit a job. it gets sent offshore.
why ? because everything is cheaper offshore and there are no laws to protect us.
unions are a GOOD thing. if tech workers had a union we could get laws institued that could heavily tax the offshoring of tech jobs when there is a sufficient supply.
Re:Jobs are hard to find, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
That depends on your point of view. From another point of view, it's probably incompetent management trying to take advantage.
It doesn't matter that it's "only" 4-6 weeks. The employees will be straining to get through half that at 12/7 before they start doing more harm than good. If it's "only" a one-off and really necessary for the company, then management should have approached the employees and discussed the possibility with them before accepting the project and telling them what they "have to do".
This sounds like a simple failure of good management. The managers exist only to balance requirements with resources. If this project requires excessive work on the part of the staff, then management should have assigned more resources, or not taken on the project. They have no-one to blame but themselves if they treat salaried staff in a less favourable way than contractors, and those staff then feel aggrieved.
I agree with the other posters that you should look at the company and the nature of management overall before deciding how to act in a situation like this. But look with a very sceptical eye. Loyalty to a good employer is fair enough, but I've seen way too many people stick it out way too long because they assumed that "things will get better" or "the economy is just down", while others around them in a similar position were getting much better deals by actually going out and shopping around.
Re:They pretend to pay us... (Score:3, Insightful)
Stop selling the rest of us out. (Score:2, Insightful)
I am so tired of hearing you aholes whine and yet do it anyway. Hear is an idea, try living below your means so you can be prepared for a situatiuon like this. If you are going to decide to work as a slave for these people then stick with you decision and stop whining like little girls.
It is a shame thay you will give up you life for a little bit of money.
Yeah, I'm bitter.
Get the request in writing (Score:3, Insightful)
Then don't work all those extra hours - work 12/5 or 10/6 and let them fire you if they want. Then if they fire you for not doing 12/7, sue their ass for wrongful termination and for the unpaid overtime you did so far. As an exempt employee, they are not supposed to be counting your hours and penalizing you for going below a ridiculously high amount.
Re:Four letters (Score:5, Insightful)
I said it before and I will say it again. If you don't have the latitude in your life to quit your job, you are at the mercy of your employer.
But have you asked? (Score:3, Insightful)
But...have you asked about compensation of some form? If you don't ask, a money-tight company (or insensitive boss) won't think to offer. However, if you ask they just might see your point...
I'm not saying that it's right that you are in a position of having to ask. But if you don't ask, then you won't know for sure that the above statement is true. If you do ask and they say "no", then see those "Q-U-I-T" threads above ;-).
Re:They pretend to pay us... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Four letters (Score:2, Insightful)
This is such a load. This topic keeps coming up here and I totally disagree. If you don't like your job, the last thing you want to do is sit around and be misarable. DO SOMETHING. Plan now. Get that home equity loan or school loan. Go back to school. Get certified. Whatever. Be better than the "next guy" who is the same one following the "stick it out" plan.
Chances are, you won't get a goddamn thing for taking on all this shit that your company has deemed appropriate. They have taken a liking to squeezing their employees because they think they can. Meanwhile, your buddies are already working up the ladder at the company that isn't sucking ass. You don't win a prize for being the best doormat.
This scenario has played out at my (former) company. Everybody is dashing because of all the bs. Now, the company has screwed themselves because all their programmers left. Oops. The jobs are out there.
I don't want to sound too religious, but can you really put a price on your day to day happiness?
Re:Four more letters (Score:3, Insightful)
Do you seriously think that having a republician in office is the reason my you're late on your payments? I'd like to see the logic behind that.
Of course I'm voting to better my situation.
How does one vote to better their situation? I can see planning for the future better, managing money better, looking for a better job to improve your situation. I can't see however voting to improve your situation.
It's apparent that this country is largely comprised of SUV-driving home-owning smiley happy fuckers that are all to content to live off my misery.
Hmmm, I don't own an SUV, but I do own my home. I had thought that I needed to work for 40-60 hours a week to live, support my kids, etc. Now that I found out that I can live off your misery I guess I can just quit and you being miserable will do the rest.
As far as the orignal question goes, what to do about an boss who wants too much OT for free? Sit down and talk to them about the project. See if it's possible to get either comp time, a completion bonus for the group, or some other reward for working those hours. If that's not goig to happen, I'd start using your free 12 hours a day (sleep is for the weak) to look for a better job, but just don't quit because things are difficult.
Ah, the old Death March (Score:3, Insightful)
1. Lie down and get kicked.
2. Q - U - I - T
3. Organize, play along, and turn then turn the tables at the end.
You didn't mention the margin on this deal and that would be a very good thing to find out before excercising Option #3. If they are making 500% profit off your blood, sweat, and tears then I would definately go after some of some of that cheese. If they have no cheese to give, you might as well start looking for another job since this project probably won't finish on time and the company is sunk anyway.
However. if there is money to be made. First, I'd organize with the the key people on the development team. Then I would start the death march and work hard on the project. On death marches, people start quitting after the first few weeks because they can't handle it. Once the pack leans out a bit and there is no hope of finishing this project with replacement developers make your collective demands. This is called collective bargaining. Also, get any CASH you want UP FRONT. Don't take promises, take CASH UP FRONT or you will NEVER SEE IT.
Also, if the mandate is 7x12 then make sure everyone one the team works 7x12. If anyone is excused from working for any reason then make sure you take equal time off. Those with kids and families tend to get breaks like working from home and weekends off.
Remember that no matter how much they yell and scream, you are NOT a slave.
I guess this is what Greenspan was talking about when he said, "Employee productivity gains have been made."
Re:Four letters (Score:3, Insightful)
I think people often do not realize that a family is far more than food on the table. You work 80 hours a week, your wife never sees you, your children grow up disrespecting you because you are never around... And when you are, all you do is complain about how much your boss makes you work.
Being a husband and being a father are responsibilities far greater than being a source-o-plenty. What are you going to do when you find out that your teenage daughter doesn't want to talk to you, and your wife is having an affair? Throw money at them? Call them ingrates?
American Beauty, indeed.
Re:Jobs are hard to find, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
They should decide whether or not it is viable to complete the project to the client's specifications with the resources available. ("Viable" needn't mean "profitable"; they could decide to run the project at an acceptable loss in order to keep the client sweet.)
If the project is viable, they should assign sufficient resources and have the project done. If the project is not viable, they should explain this politely to the client, and decline the business.
No smart client is going to withhold future business because you declined an infeasible project. If they do, you have failed to manage your clients' expectations effectively, which is another common but avoidable failure of management. And besides, you are in business to make a profit, not to keep happy potential clients who do not make you a profit.
Sure, and the employees have every right to say no if unreasonable demands are made of them, particularly in the sort of unpleasant way that this seems to be done (telling not asking, no up-front offers of compensation, treat staff differently to contractors, etc).
I'd work out what resources would be needed. If necessary, this could include asking whether people would be prepared to do more than their usual amount of work to increase that, given mutually acceptable compensation. Then I'd work out if the project was viable. If it was, I'd take it. If not, I wouldn't.
This is not a new problem, nor even an uncommon one. Yet companies with bad management seem to run into it all the time, while companies with good management strangely seem to avoid it, even when working in a similar industry and with similar or identical clients. Go figure.
I would leave (Score:4, Insightful)
I think we have our selves to blame when we can't afford to do this, and I've been guilty of it in the past, which is why I changed my habits. You see, I generally can afford to quit a job, and I've done it before. By having saved for more than just those days when I stop working for good I was able to quit. By being sucked in to the consumer machine we spend and spend without thought to consequences. While many of us save for retirement and a rainy day, not to many save six months to a year of living expenses so that we can be in control of our work day.
This company believes they have you. For most of the poeple there they probably do. You can't afford to quit long enough to find a new job, so they will do to you what they can. If you can't afford to leave the job, at least use it as a reminder next time your looking at that new CD or adding 20 new cable channels you will never watch, or upgrading that computer you bought last year. There's a deeper price to pay than the money. That money is your freedom. Freedom from control.
When you shop, when you buy things, when you use the credit card, think about it. Think about what you could do if you could afford to take a year off to find the perfect job. Think about what you could do if you could take a year off to get a consulting business off the ground. Think about what you could do if you have the choice to do it. Money gives you that choice. When I'm working my goals are to get one year salary saved, seperate from retirement and savings for other things like a new car or home, and it's worked. When a previous company was going the wrong direction I was able to simply walk in to my managers office and hand him a polite letter saying that I was leaving for personal reasons and planned to take some time off.
Re:wrongful dismissal (Score:2, Insightful)
This is especially true in the south-eastern U.S. (e.g., South Carolina). The employment contracts say right up front that the work is "at will", and that employment can be terminated without disclosing the cause and at any time.
It goes both ways, where the employees can quit at any time with no consequences, but, in practice, "at will" employment is weighted in favor of the employer (i.e., biting the hand that feeds you isn't always a good thing).
IIRC, the South is also culturally anti-union, for historical reasons, which makes Big Industry happy.
Whine, whine, whine (Score:3, Insightful)
Overtime Pay (Score:2, Insightful)
The other thing though is I produced more during my 40 hours per week than the poor boobs who worked 60 hours per week. I didn't do more work, but I did very little rework....fixing bugs is all rework and it's productivity = zero.
If you go from a 40 hour work week to a 60 hour work week, more work is produced for 3 weeks. The fourth week results in the same amount of work accomplished as the 40 work week. After that less work is performed in 60 hours than used to be done in 40 hours.
I know that everyone thinks they are doing all kinds of work and they are. But most of the work they do is fixing mistakes they made due to fatigue and has zero productivity.
Re:If you do quit before the end of project... (Score:3, Insightful)
And tell senior management that the bonuses should come directly from the commissions that the sales team who negotiated the deal earned. Sales and account management should be pillaged to pay for their fuck-up.
This may actually work, too. They can do the math with you, if need be.
Re:Law of diminishing returns. (Score:2, Insightful)
What the mgmt needed to say to the client was the following;
Please pick any TWO of the following;
- On Time
- On Budget
- Good Quality
But being suckarse mgmt, they didn't know how to tell a client this. In the end, as well as screwing and pissing off their workers, they are doing a disservice to the client because they client won't get what they want anyway.
Re:Demonstrating the need for IT Unionization. (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, unions are the answer. NOT.
The answer is don't compromise. If the deal sucks, walk away. If you accept the terms of a crappy situation, then you set precedence that the employer can do it all over again.
Your job is toast, whether you quit or not (Score:3, Insightful)
If a client insisted to IBM or EDS that they must have the project finished by the same fixed date after the client delayed it, they (the client) would get the contract shoved up their ass.
I know its pretty obvious but... (Score:3, Insightful)
If you don't quit, then shut up and take it, just like you deserve to.
Re:They pretend to pay us... (Score:5, Insightful)
I have every right to say, "it's 5:00PM. I'm going home now". And I do. Every day. At least I work for a sane and humane employer. Granted I don't make a six figue salary and would be considered "poor" by most of the Slashdot neocons. But having more time outside of work then at work is worth more to me than six figures, an SUV and a cluster home.
Europe has the right idea. If we all worked less, we'd get more done with a higher level of quality. And maybe not everyone would be as uptight.
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
My religion won't allow it! (Score:3, Insightful)
My religion does not allow me to work on Sundays. It isn't extreemly strict, as the preacher say, illness doesn't wait, so if I need an emergency room I don't want the doctors to wait until monday to do surgery. So we cannot tell doctors to not work sundays. And there are many other reasons that you may have to work sundays. However if your job isn't critical to life in some way (you know if your job is really critical to life) and you have to work a lot of sundays, then there is a problem. Doctors are encouraged to find some other doctor who doesn't care about working sundays and switch, but that isn't normally possiable.
More improtantly, about half the people in the US belong activly to a religion that prohibits working on a Holly day. (normaly sunday, but some saterday, and I think Muslims have a different day) You should have no problem telling your boss that your religious health is more important than anything on earth. (in most religions anyway).
p.s. check your local unemplyment laws. In Minnesota the law allows you to get unemployment if quit for a reason that would cause a normal person to quit, and a change in working conditions is one example givin. You should seriously check this option out. Unfortunatly it is a tight market, I've been looking for a programing job for almost a year, which is longer than unemployment lasts. Consider it, but I don't know your situation, or your local laws.
Re:Two words: (Score:1, Insightful)
and, depending on where you live, it is usually 3 consecutive days in a row before you need a note.
Re:Alternatives? (Score:3, Insightful)
My absolute favorite is 'oh your single you can work even MORE hours.' Ill take wrong answers for 500 alex.
Had one dude actually stand in front of all of us and say 'at this company we have NO comp time'. We would usually work a bit over and make it up somewhere else. Usually we would forget and just work over. He was expecting ONLY overtime and no 40's as it were. Well with that attitude the amount of people leaving at exactly 5 was amazing. There were very few people after 5 at that point. I found I couldnt actually get anything done so I started leaving around the same time. Never underestimate the power of stupidity, and dont get any on you.
Re:Nine letters (Score:2, Insightful)
There are two ways to solve any problem: time and money.
In this case, time is not available, therefore we go to money.
The client has made a request to make the project deadline. Fine, then the project jsut became more expensive.
No, the extra money isnt to pay you to work double-overtime. Its to increase your headcount.
Bring in more project workers, outsource to India, spend the money effeciently and wisely to increase the productivity to your firm to make the deadline.
Afterall, otherwise you have just told your client you are a small company and are only good for small projects, and when they need important and bigger projects they should go to someone else.
And, if you really are a small company and you cant take on the project - then you should walk away.
Otherwise, you are going to work like a maniac and you are going to turn in a shit project and the client will never work with you again anyway.
My $.02
Re:They pretend to pay us... (Score:5, Insightful)
I NEVER work for free, and neither should you.
PS - I must admit that while working as a contractor I have worked huge amounts of overtime - but I was getting paid for it.
Re:They pretend to pay us... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Four letters (Score:3, Insightful)
Bullshit. Have you ever worked a day in your life before? You obviously have no experience with management. Besides, money is certainly not everything in this world. You'd have to pay me more than 10 times my current salary before I would even CONSIDER working 12 hours a day every day for a month and a half. Further, the chances of anyone doing "well" while working 12 hours a day are pretty slim. After 3 or 4 days in a row, I'd be useless. Further still, I have never seen anyone receive a promotion based solely on putting up with management's bullshit.
The contractors, even though they get overtime now, won't get any sort of promotion in a year.
You clearly do not understand the word "contractor".
Whereas if he quits, and a year later he's still looking for a job, and his potential employer asks why he quit his last job, it won't look good to say, "Oh, it was too hard there, and I'm too lazy to put in the extra effort when the going gets tough, so I just quit."
I don't know of any company that would not hire someone because they quit a previous employer under those circumstances. "Oh it was too hard there" is VASTLY different from "oh they wanted me to work 6 90-hour weeks in a row with no compensation." Get a job then maybe you'd understand.
This is where it pays to be religious. (Score:5, Insightful)
That is well within the demands of our religion. Get laid off? Ask why, in writing. If they say "could not work to meet the demands of our contract", that is enough to haul them into court: religious discrimination, and sue for company ownership.
No kidding, that 1-day-off is God's minimum-benefits plan. It is also extremely important for a different reason: people who don't get 1 day off tend to start making very bad decisions. Ask my brother, who was working 7 days per week on his grad program. He got an ion trap working that had never worked before, then got data; it was given to a previous student for her PhD. He accepted it, and went to get more data... but long story short, destroyed the million dollar superconduncting magnet through a series of plausible, but erroneous mistakes.
His grad professor approved every one of the decisions, but was not overseeing the work, since he too was making bad decisions...
I really think 1 day off a week is quite important, and the 3 major religions of Jewish origin provide a good means for that 1 day a week.
But if you aren't religious, that's okay. Go ahead and put bugs in the customer's code [you can't help it... it'll happen.]
Or go back and argue this one out with your management, saying "this isn't acceptable -- you need to hire more workers or the work isn't going to get done right, and you need to charge the customer the extra."
Re:wrongful dismissal (Score:3, Insightful)
If I'm not mistaken, whether this is true depends on which US state company is located in (or its HQs are in, or whatever determines state laws applicable). In some states (mid-west, south), chances are it is always at-will (which basically sucks for employee, in cases where it matters); in others it can not be (northeastern states?).
I personally think it sucks that due to fears of lawsuits, employers pretty much never tell people reason for firing, since it's better to use at-will clause and avoid any possibility of getting sued based on reason. But fear of legalese is so wide-spread (not least due to companies' lawyers upgrading fears... which is currently even considered their duty, it seems), that this is not an isolated thing... plus, it's one of those things where it's usually done "just in case" (ie. telling wouldn't matter in 99% cases, but since it's easier to just weasel out and not tell... hey, "why take the chance").
Do they have sealed isolation cubicles? (Score:4, Insightful)
- Physiology: increased stress = decreased function of your immune system. Insufficient sleep = increased stress.
- Human factors: if you're on a team, you don't want to appear to be doing less work than the others.
- and the numbers: 168 hours in a week. 84 for work, 56 for healthy sleep...28 for everything else
Assume all developers find a way to work 12/7: they cancel all vacations, classes, conferences, workshops, ceremonies, weddings and funerals; they telnet into religous services (and never mind all the caselaw protecting rights of religious expression when, for example, it includes having a day of rest); they suspend all taking care of children or parents (nevermind the family medical leave act)...So what happens the first time one developer gets exposed to a cold or the flu? Under regular 9/5 circumstances you might just say "Look, I'm coming down with something. I'll head out early today to sleep it off": you make up the time later, and everyone appreciates that you didn't expose them to the bug. Instead, under the 12/7 situation you're going to try to tough it out. You won't get the extra sleep you need, so the illness just gets worse. Because everyone else is sleep deprived, more people are likely to catch the cold from you. Because there is no room for errors / illness / humanity in the schedule, anyone who falls behind will be aware of how they're holding everything up. This causes stress. Stress causes illnesses to last a lot longer. Interesting negative feedback loops ensue.
And this is assuming everyone is gung-ho for the 12/7 plan. What happens when one developer gets creeped out over having to skip a funeral and decides the only choice is to quit? There won't be time to train a replacement: those 84 hours'll have to be absorbed by everyone else.
And that's just the people: that 12/7 schedule doesn't have wiggle room for all the standard crashes, viruses, connectivity failures, power outages, traffic jams, major news events, and other standard slowdowns in modern office life. Someone in management there needs to buy a spine and give the client an honest timeline.
Easy (Score:2, Insightful)
Since I assume you don't have enough money to coast, you'll need to start saving. You'll need to work this shitty project, and work it hard. Squeeze every last penny. Spend nothing. Get used to it (saving your money), you'll be doing this for the next 6 months. Get together enough money that at your current expenditure level, you can last another 6. Live like a college student if that's what it takes. $1,000 a month is actually enough to run a family, even today. Be prepared to jettison luxuries if you have to (extra car, movies, eating out, cable TV, ADSL, cell phone, etc).
Do the best damn job you possibly can on the project. Once the project is over, look for jobs. Test out the market. Get a feel for how bad it really is. If IT is as bad as it is for jobs (it really isn't) look for some other work (security jobs are boring but are ALWAYS hiring just about anyone trustworthy enough not to steal the bosses' twinkies). Once you see a decent set of jobs that you're sure you'd be hired for, you can either try to get hired (always nice, but leaves you with unspent ammo [your earlier hard effort]) or hope (risky).
So. Next step. Now you've got the money saved up, you go up to the boss and tell him point blank you will never work those hours again without overtime pay, or you'll quit. If he says you have to quit, be happy -- he was never willing to be reasonable and this situation would come up again and again.
Unless you are truly a useless lump, you'll find something, perhaps even at a reduced salary, elsewhere. You have 6 months to do so, so you aren't rushed. If you can't find anything after 4 months, time to set up shop and get your own customers. Why not phone all the past clients of your old company? I'm sure they're all pissed off and are looking for new people to do their dirty work.
Re:Day of rest? (Score:3, Insightful)
What you're forgetting is that there's something to be said about quality of life. I used to live in a geographic area where houses were much cheaper than where I currently live (Phoenix), but the area was kinda rural and not much fun to live in. Sure, a house was cheaper, but jobs paid less, and there wasn't a decent-sized city closer than 5 hours away. What are you supposed to do in a place like that? Hang out with the
local rednecks and hunt deer?
While I haven't lived in CA, I have visited many times (I'm only 6 hours from San Diego), and it is a really nice place to visit. There's tons to do there. It was similar when I visited a friend in Manhattan, where the cost of living is even more outrageous.
There's also something to be said for jobs. In the cheap parts of the country, there isn't a high density of engineering jobs. Where you live, there might be a small handful of employers offering positions you qualify for. If you lose your job (notice the current economy), you'll be basically forced to move to get a new job. In some place like southern CA, this isn't a big problem: there's tons of employers within a reasonable commute. This also makes it hard for employers to screw over employees like this article's author is complaining about: it's much easier for employeers to quit and find a new job, without having to sell the house, relocate the family, etc.
For me, I'm trying to find a happy medium for now between cost-of-living and quality-of-life. I like owning a house, but I also like living in a large city with more than 2 employers, so I've picked a place with several large corporations as well as many small ones, a reasonable cost-of-living, and plenty of stuff I like to do nearby.
Re:Then I DO get paid for overtime (Score:5, Insightful)
--A balnace *has* to be struck between work and personal life. I don't care if you're a single bachelor even - if you devote your entire life to work, you rob yourself. Your employer does NOT CARE about you. Stand up for your personal time, and don't agree to be a slave.
Re:They pretend to pay us... (Score:2, Insightful)
the simple approach (Score:2, Insightful)
Your employment contract states that you are contracted to work a fixed amount of hours per week (say, 40). Often - mine does - it also says that you are to work some degree overtime when necessary. However, this doesn't extend to the sort of overtime that your organisation is demanding. You are within your rights to state that you can't work 12/7 - and you should try to negotiate and state that you are prepared to work some amount, say 50 hours a week, that is "reasonable" amount of overtime. The organisation cannot dismiss you otherwise it is wrongful termination. You can simply refuse to work to their excessive demands.
Re:This is where it pays to be religious. (Score:1, Insightful)
Slave? Yeah, right. (Score:3, Insightful)
"Never"? I told you about what I was doing now, not what I was going to be doing for the rest of my life.
Go ahead, stand up for those rights, and leave work every day at five o'clock. I'm working on being able to leave work, period.
What a politically "progressive" society we have, where someone with my life is encouraged to consider himself a victim of oppression.
OK. Practical stuff. (Score:3, Insightful)
I am a reasonably senior manager in IT. I have been around a bit and here are the facts.
A)
It is the resposibility of your manager to report to his manager, up the line to the CEO. The CEO works for the board. The board DO WHAT IS BEST FOR THE COMPANY SHAREHOLDERS. Not you. I'll come back to this point as its important.
B)
Any student of HR will understand that 12*7*6 is not tenable. Per day, assume 12 hours work, 1 hour break, 2*0.5=1 hour commuting, 8 hours sleep, 1 hour breakfast/wash/shave, 1 hour evening meal. Add it up. That is 23 hours. That leaves 7 hours a week for other things. Grocery store 1 hour, washing clothes 1 hour, etc. 12/7 working not only destroys your social life, it is MATHEMATICALLY intractable.
C)
Any student of psychology will know that in a given team of (say) 10, 2 will go the distance, 2 will do it under duress, 2 will do it but badly (see B, above), 2 will do a half-assed job and 2 will simply quit. Its a bell curve of human behaviour and RESPONSE UNDER PRESSURE. Thats the key. Some personalities (like mine) - Briggs-Meier ENTJ will simply quit. Google for Briggs-Meier, look at the behavioural motifs and then the responses of each type under stress. I predict you will lose 25% of your effectiveness over the duration of the project.
D)
I assume most people are familiar with the mythical man month so I wont go there other than to say hiring new contractors wont help.
OK. So what do we do. There has been good advice about not being the guy to put his head above the parapet. Especially in this market. So draft a letter, all sign it, and deliver ANONYMOUSLY to your management.
Make the points above. As a responsible manager, they SHOULD see impending doom and go straight back to the client and negotiate an extension such that critical cuntionality is delivered on-time and less critical thereafter. They can sweeten this with free support later. They HAVE to spread this load or the team will walk. There, you have turned this debate from a "they are trying to screw us - f*ck them" into a BUSINESS DECISION. Business is about weighing up risk. They need to clearly understand the risks. I can now refer to to point (A). The company's interests are clearly not served by doing this. What are the penalties if they fail? Can they risk failure if some of you guys take the ultimate sanction and walk. I refer you to point (C): other posters tell you to quit whiing and/or knuckle down. Yeah. Whatever. The truth is that certan personalities will QUIT whether it is logical to do so or not. Some personlaities UNDER PRESSURE will resort to self-destructive behaviours such as walking out with no job to go to and even sabotage. I have seen it happen.
Document EVERYTHING. If HR get involved (they will have to in this one I think), if people get fired, quit, sue (the whole gamut is possible - nay, probable here) you want to have some arrows to fire. Even if there is nothing to document - document the fact that there is nothing. Do it NOW.
If you win concessions, carrots, etc from management, get it up front and guaranteed IN WRITING from the guy who will ultimately write the cheque. Clue: that wont be your line manager. In these times, it's likely senior management/CFO. Your manager will piss and moan about you mistrusting him but the risks here are too great to not do it.
Regardless, get the company to formally request each of you in writing to do the work. Even if you as salaried employees are expected to do certain unpaid overtime, in a LEGAL situation the court will generally ask whether the request was REASONABLE. 12/5 or even 8/7 (sixtyish) hours might be reasonable but 84? for two months? in summer? Hmmm. A judge will have a long hard look at that.
And final
Re:wrongful dismissal (Score:3, Insightful)
a. they pay overtime and
b. sign a contract that they will not fire you for a certain amount of time
Better wait until the project is halfway before making that step.
That way, your 1. isn't exceedingly unlikely. You probably will be fired after that period howver, but then you have some savings from your overtime and enough time to find a new job afterwards.
I've been in both situations (Score:3, Insightful)
I can tell you one thing - i produced much more (as in results) working 8h/day than doing 10x6. In one specific situation, after about 2 months of doing an average 60h/week i was so incredibly tired that i produced less that i would be if i had worked only 20h/week (no kidding).
My pet theory is that a tired mind produces more bugs. Now, finding a bug and fixing takes a lot more time (like 10-1000 times more) than coding it right. The outcome is that the total time is longer because you end up wasting a lot of unecessary time in bugfixing.
If you are really really tired, than things get so bad that you even type wrong (at my worst point i was doing something like 1 spelling mistake every 4 or 5 keypresses - that's when i decide to quit and ended up moving to another country, my best decision ever).
<RANT>
I definitely can't understand the management mentality that believes that someone that's working 80h/week can produce more than someone doing 40. I suppose it's a mix of stupidity - more hours = more work done - and a "cover your ass" approach - when the project fails (not if), the manager can always say that it's not his/her fault, he/she made the coders work really hard (and working long hours is a highly visible thing).
</RANT>
Start with No (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:They pretend to pay us... (Score:1, Insightful)
On the other hand, I'm over 30 so maybe I'm just suffering from Ageism....
Before waxing poetic about "Here's what I'd do" make sure you have 2 backup plans in case they can your very-well-justified booty. The first backup will always fail.
Re:They pretend to pay us... (Score:2, Insightful)