12/7 and Overtime on a Salary? 932
over-timeout! asks: A company I work for (in the U.S.A.) had submitted a statement of work to a client, who waited for a month before signing the work order. The work order explicitly stated a timeline which would start from the time the order is signed. However, the client is insisting on the project being completed by a fixed date, as discussed with our company's management, instead of the deadline that starts from the signing of the work order. Although our company representatives tried to push back on the date, the client refused. Because the client is among our company's biggest customers, our company's management caved in and agreed to their deadlines. Management has told us meeting deadlines means that for the next month to six weeks all of the developers involved will have to work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week. The contractors involved are going to get compensated by being paid by the hour. But us salaried employees are going to get nothing in return for trading in what's left of our life so someone else in the company above us can make money. Obviously this isn't fair, but what are the alternatives in this down economy, where jobs are hard to find?" A related articles on this subject discusses suing for overtime, and California residents should find this companion article pertinent, as well. What can you do when management agrees to a timeline and a workload that may make your job, as a programmer, difficult-to-impossible?
Jobs are hard to find, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
Four letters (Score:5, Interesting)
If you cave on this, they might throw you a bone (they might give you a 3 day weekend or two). If you're succesful and you deliver a good product, your management won't have to think twice about doing this to you again. The fact that your management isn't willing to throw a carrot out there up front tells me they aren't going to make competent decisions in the future.
I know its hard to quit when you have mouths to feed, etc., but if quitting is not an option, you're really at their mercy.
Re:Jobs are hard to find, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
This is not normal (Score:1, Interesting)
Perhaps it is time to think about 'organizing'.
Demonstrating the need for IT Unionization. (Score:5, Interesting)
I think if you act collectivel and keep the community informed you wil have a lot of support and could be the beginning of something.
Bank it (Score:3, Interesting)
6 weeks, 7 days, 12 hours = 504 hours
at 40 hours/wk this is 12.6 weeks
Yeah, you lose 6 rought weeks, but then almost 7 weeks of banked vacation to draw on, that's pretty sweet.
Another alternative if they argue some OT is expected, bank the weekends and everything over 9 or 10 hours a day, that would still be a few weeks off.
scientists already works this + more (Score:1, Interesting)
if we kept a time card and 'complaining' about the 'hours' they work (quantity and actual time during the day)
(note: we don't keep time cards, and we work all hours of the day, all week long)
work from home option (Score:4, Interesting)
Why not ask for a compromise?
Tom
Re:Law of diminishing returns. (Score:3, Interesting)
Alternatives (Score:5, Interesting)
1. Quit on principle and give your job to someone who doesn't have one.
2. Keep your job and lower wages for everyone.
You probably only have your job because you're salaried and cheaper than your hourly colleagues of equal skill. You made the concession long ago that you would take security over cash.
During the boom, labor will rule. During the bust, management will rule. Them's the rules.
I never follow the rules, but you're not me.
Hen-hearted numbskulls (Score:1, Interesting)
Management has told us meeting deadlines means that for the next month to six weeks all of the developers involved will have to work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Re:Law of diminishing returns. (Score:5, Interesting)
Thats when more equals less. Like having a car with the choke stuck. If you mash the gas, it will just stall...
I am a contractor (Score:4, Interesting)
The downside? I have worked for nearly a year away from my home in Seattle because there is no contracting work available there, and hundreds of qualified applicants for every full-time job. Health Insurance if far more expensive for me. I am not paid for holidays and the closest I come to vacation is the period between assignments that I must often spend frantically looking for the next contract.
Plus contractors always get the worst desk / cubes / equipment because they are not part of the headcount (which determines space, equipment and office furniture allocations). I have literally worked at a table in a hallway before.
I have been on both sides of the fence and you know what? Freelancing and/or working through a pimp is better in one respect: We know the customer is going to dump us sooner or later. While you full-timers labor under the mistaken belief you actually have job security...
Nine letters (Score:5, Interesting)
You help the company out of a hole, then they can give you some extra time/bonus/spare computer/whatever afterwards.
If you can prove to be flexible and valuable, then the company will want to keep you around. The flip side is that you signed up for a reasonable workload, not 12/7. There is no need to be screwed.
Therefore try to figure something out to keep it win-win.
Re:They pretend to pay us... (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:So little good advice (formatted) (Score:3, Interesting)
Sorry to read that there's such a high noise/signal ratio for the replies to your problem here. I was involved in a similar situation to yours (timeline slightly longer, but same demands on developers), and here's what we decided we learned afterwards:
On number 4: Try to make the list positive (tough, I know). Nobody (esp managers) like to be told they're wrong. And be sure that no one person is listed in a leadership position, to avoid being labeled as the 'rabble rouser'. This means delivering a printed letter anonymously, not via somebody's e-mail account. I know this is paranoid, but the person who delivered our list got the short stick...
Good luck with this situation, I feel for you.
To all of you who claimed your jobs require you to work long hours - suck it up. Nobody is making you work there.
Re:Law of diminishing returns. (Score:5, Interesting)
BTW has anyone noticed this trend with MSFT? They produce a poor 1.0, and by 5.0 (a few rewrites later?) it's robust, feature-rich, and popular.
As I said, sometimes the "first version is meant to be thrown away", so it doesn't matter how many bugs. The time-to-market is more important in introducing a product. Moreover, the team can take a 2-5 day break, and come back to code version 2.0 at 8/5 pace.For projects, the more the no. of bugs, the better it is, because they can keep billing the client for the mythical man-hours put in for fixing them. Project-companies with hourly billing gain both ways (12/7 followed by bug-fixing cycles).
Fill their minds with fear. (aka Jedi Mind trick) (Score:1, Interesting)
Sun Szu, "The art of War", Chapter 13, On the Use of Spies. [chinapage.com]
Re:Law of diminishing returns. (Score:5, Interesting)
The differences between my situation and the original posters were several:
a) We were on an aircraft carrier, and had no say in our working hours. Frankly, they could have been much worse: some groups worked 5 hours on / 5 off, or 12 on / 6 off for months at a time.
b) We had limited outside distractions. No commute, no having to mow the lawn or paint the house on weekends, no grocery shopping, no cooking. Our job was just to fix avionics boxes, and the system was optimized to keep us on task and productive.
c) You have to get used to the hours. The 8/40 work week is a relativly modern invention - our bodies will work much longer, it's just that our brains aren't used to concentrating so long.
All that being said, if my boss told me that my job depended on working 12/7 for months with no bonus, pay raise, or comp time then I'd walk.
Difference (b) above is a big one - if I have to work 12/7 as well as commute, grocery shop, and maintain my house and car there is simply not enough time left in the day for everything. I didn't go to college for 6 years to work the hours of my great-grandfather the farmer, who got up before sunrise and slept after sunset.
Difference (a) is the clincher, though. Once you enlist, they *own* your ass and you will work whatever hours your semi-literate boss dictates to you. If you tell him to fuck off, you can go to jail, be fed bread and water, or in wartime, be shot. After eight years of experiencing that environment, I'm fully aware that as a civilian I can quit at any time for any reason - this is a luxury that I've earned, and I see no reason not to use it when the conditions of my employment start being arbitrarily changed.
Re:How long for, future promotions, and any Perks? (Score:3, Interesting)
There is something to be said to present a can-do attitude to management: yes, the team can deliver, if given a few perks as you suggested. (And you can bet your behind that with this workload and timeline, this will have to be a team effort). The downside is that it'll set a nasty precedent: management may see that they can cut timelines on future projects easily. Also, I fail to see why the compensation should be limited to a foosball table and lunches. If the deal is fixed-price, the gross take is the same, and the company will save the labor costs for the amount of time taken off the original planning (provided that during that time, the team can be gainfully utilised elsewhere). This savings could be paid out as overtime wages. If the deal is time & materials, the client will pony up for 12x7, not 8x5, and again the company could simply pay overtime at 100% rates without it costing them anything extra. Since this isn't happening, the company makes a very tasty extra profit on this project, and I also expect certain managers to do very well in bonus money. Again, I've seen this happen...
Re:They pretend to pay us... (Score:5, Interesting)
Reminds me of a story on TV in the UK a week ago (BBC2, Correspondant, Sunday night, all about the eurozone but no link unfortuately).
A German manufacturing company manager was being interviewed. He said a project was due on Monday but Friday night was not finished... so the workers decided to come in on Saturday to finish it. The manager did not know the workers were coming in. The project went out on Monday. Some months later the employer was called to court - someone had mentioned this to the authorities, and although they were working voluntarily he was ordered to change locks at the factory and hold all keys himself only, and if a worker did voluntary overtime he should fire them!!!!
Wow! That is a nanny state wrapping you in cotton woll and duct tape until you asphixiate.
Re:They pretend to pay us... (Score:3, Interesting)
But when getting promotion in a corporation, or if your refusal to do something 'avove 48 hours' cost the team, then you could get a bad reference, a bad personal recommendation (not on paper, can't be audited), a bad rep, plain passed up.
What bankers (yeah yeah yeah) in London don't do > 50 hours ALL of the time. Yes we'd like to do less, but we ALL know we'd lose our job if that were so, whatever the regulation says. Most I ever did was 400 hours/month, I didn't like it and I'm not paid by-the-hour, but it demonstrated my commitment and played a part in a promotion.
Regulation is to satisfy unionised work or protect low skill low wage jobs with no chance of promotion. For the most of us here, it is irrelevant.
And in the end, its not the hours we do, but finisheing a project in time.
If you stay and want to be a hero (Score:3, Interesting)
The way to do that is not, of course, to work 84 hours a week. Read Yourdon's book _Death March_. It's about the tactics that allow pulling off a project with preposterous resource constraints.
In a nutshell, put all the coders in their own offices, unplug the phones, put up barricades against all bureaucrats, compromise quality and ruthlessly, viciously prune features.
If your management thinks that working 12x7 will get the contract done, they don't understand project management. If they're willing to learn, you can show them and make yourself look great.
Re:Alternatives? (Score:5, Interesting)
- Do your work and submit your claim for overtime pay.
If you are in California, they MUST pay it, nor can they get you to sign an agreement to waive overtime compensation. After submitting your overtime claim, if they fail to pay you the proper amount on the next paycheck, submit your claim to the Labor Board. If they fire you, great, now they also owe you big bucks for illegal termination. Oh, IANAL, so you might want to verify this information.Get compensated. (Score:4, Interesting)
Say you'll be putting in 5 months of work in 4 months. Ask for 4 weeks vacation to be added to your personal leave.
If they say no, don't threaten to quit. Just interview elsewhere, get a job, and leave.
Re:Demonstrating the need for IT Unionization. (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm not sure about the actual laws here, but it happens that way in the US too. If you want to know anything about labor unions in America, don't come to slashdot, most of the people who talk about them here are profoundly ignorant of how they actually work. They seem to get most of their information from right-wing propanda and movies about organized crime.
Re:They pretend to pay us... (Score:5, Interesting)
When stuff needs to get done ASAP, I stay until 9 p.m or 10 p.m. I even come in on the weekend. This is OK with me because if I don't the company won't make money or get the next contract and I will probobably end up unemplyed.
Plus, I like the company I work for. People are great and we are a real team. It is not like everyone is slacking off and I have to work lots of hours. Oh and our management also work lots of hours. They are always last to leave. These guys even stay until 9 p.m. on Friday nights.
Re:They pretend to pay us... (Score:3, Interesting)
Don't delude yourself. If you are so much of an asset that you were worth your pay, why would they let you go (unless the company had their heads up their ass to begin with in which case, why stay there?)
Re:How long for, future promotions, and any Perks? (Score:3, Interesting)
Why in the name of Sanity do supposedly smart individuals allow themselves to be treated this way? If you figure what your salary is reduced to after a year (and I hope you were exaggerating....) of 12/7 (or 12/6, or yes, 12/5) you may have well just dropped out of high school for what you are earning.
Yes, Real Life often makes harsh demands in the modern workplace; families must eat, gas tanks filled, bills paid. But when all is said and done, I suspect the Geek is far more likely to be coerced in this fashion than other employees. Call it a holdover from the schoolyard. In my experience, the only other people who get worked (exploited?) that thoroughly are business-fodder. You know, what investment bankers are before they get the big accounts.....why are the Geeks right alongside them? I truly wonder.
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There was a case in the Northeast a few years ago (Score:3, Interesting)
I can't remember the details, but the gist was simply this,,, if you were an hourly worker, federal law would require compensation for you overtime and that compensation would be at an inflated rate. If a company chooses to make you a salaried employee, the concept is supposed to include a certain amount of flexibility in your job that acts as compensation for the overtime pay an hourly employee would get paid. Things like flexible lunch breaks and flexibility in when you work are expected.
In the case I heard about, a company had treated their employees like hourly employees, absolutely dictating every detail about their schedule and even requiring them to punch clocks for record keeping purposes. The employees brought a lawsuit against the company for back pay on their overtime using the same 1.5X normal pay to 60hours, 2X normal pay on Sundays, 3X normal pay on holidays rules that they would have received by law if they had been classified hourly employees. I heard that they won, but didn't hear whether any appeals process was followed.
So, there is a limit to what they can demand. If they are offering some form of compensation like 3 day weeks for a while later, I would think that you've got no case. If not, and they are treating you like hourly employees, you should consider breaking the business relationship if you can as a first resort, but if that isn't possible (i.e. another job can't be found) you should keep careful records including anything written that describes this policy and any other policies that seem like the kind that would be employed with hourly workers and consult an attorney.
Don't be a doormat (Score:2, Interesting)
It's when people roll over and take it up the pooper from employers, that it makes it harder for everybody. Tactics like this work because people cave in and let it happen to them, You have an education, you have a degree, there are plenty of other places that will hire you.
Re:They pretend to pay us... (Score:2, Interesting)
>>more, without additional pay, you are being
>>SCREWED.
Yep. I am on Salary but my employer still pays overtime up and above 40 hours.
Oh WAAH... (Score:2, Interesting)
Over worked and under paid? Join the club. Most of America does manual labor for 1/4th the wage of your yearly salary, and works harder, longer hours than anyone you probably know. The top 5 people I work with are about the boat, not the captain, and will do whatever it takes to keep us cruising. That is why we are still here. It isn't about the money, its about the game. Its about being reliable and sleeping well at night knowing that your motivations aren't built on greed. Its about looking at yourself in the mirror and being able to see in your own eyes that you aren't corrupt.
To those of you who find my stance entertaining enough to reply with cyinicism: you are the kind of trash I would fire in a heartbeat. Someone on here brought up cutbacks and evaluations, and that is what you should be thinking about. If your little 6 week stretch of waking up early and not having time to mow your lawn or wash your Volvo is too much to handle maybe you should try a different career like selling hot dogs.
Managerial crap aside, you have a good point. I was pissed too when my "promotion" turned out to be a cut in pay with more responsibility. Since I had the balls to tough it out I get to be the boss! Hah!
Oh, that's easy. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:wrongful dismissal (Score:3, Interesting)
Really, the only defense against IT people being marginalized into the sub-$14.00 per hour category, in the long term, is massive geek organization. The corporations view you as any resource - as labor that can and will be paid the absolute minimum for the skill set. If industry folk get together and conspire to hire for smaller and smaller sums, every geek loses. A geek union, not affiliated with the labor unions whatsoever, and run democratically, is probably the thing most feared by EVERY medium to large tech house in the world. The union needs to be international, and unafraid of action. That way, slimy businesspeople wouldn't be able to outsource to India for any less money than their current labor. Do geeks have the spines to strike, though? Somehow, I think not.
Re:Alternatives? (Score:1, Interesting)
vnc [att.com]
The best is to get a customer that REFUSES to use it. Thats ok we will NOT support you. We will have someone here from 8-7 EST and we will walk you through it on the phone. Past that good luck. Its amazing after about the 3rd time through that they cave and just let you in...
Now every once and awhile you will get a boss who thinks YOU MUST BE THERE. Thats ok bring them ALONG. They will quickly see the value of VNC or a similar tool. Make them sit in the noisy server room with you. That way they can do the face time thing and you can get the work done more efficantly. Also a few 'i can dial in and have it fixed by the end of the day' With NO travel time is a amazing thing...
Also do not let your sales force drive what you do. Make your OWN deadlines. But stick to em. They will quickly see how effective it is to have your buy in. Because they are tied to your success not the other way around. Their bonus DEPENDS on you making the date. Not the other way around... Sometimes you will get customers that think they can dictate to you whatever their whim is. Remind them this is a busness relationship (this is the sales droids job). Do they want things that works, or just something on a random madeup date that may or may not work?
Re:wrongful dismissal (Score:2, Interesting)
0 - 10 years: Big improvements.
20 - 40 years: Some improvements, not too many.
40 - 60 years: Employees are given so many rights it takes 3 notices and police standing at the door to sack people stealing thousands of dollars of equipment.
60 - 70 years: Company is in debt.
70+ years: Company gives up and goes bust. All employees lose their jobs, and the "disease" starts to spread nationwide.
Notice how excellent and ubiquitous these "asian" vehicles are becoming. It isn't just because of the low wages. It's because some of their plants are North American, and they aren't unionized (and the workers want to keep it that way - they like their jobs).
>Do geeks have the spines to strike, though?
In a union, it doesn't take a spine to strike. It takes a spine to stand up for what's right, and more often then not, nowadays, that means staying at work and walking through the picket line. 95% of today's strikes (if not more) are unnecessary and are causing you to put the company you so dearly love (for money) out of business.
It's easy to stand outside around a warm barrel fire and get drunk. It's even easier to pop people's tires as the enter the building. It takes courage to ignore the hooligans and do what's right.
The minute I see a tech union is the minute I make sure I avoid it. Mob rule is unjust, and will put this already shaky part of the economy down the toilet.
Re:Jobs are hard to find, but... (Score:3, Interesting)
"Ask" not "demand", and the problem is that they're not offering any compensation -- monetary or otherwise.
I worked for one asshole for far too long who did stuff like that till I eventually worked out I was never going to be rewarded for giving up my life (I an married, with a kid). So I just stopped working nights and weekends. And after a while, when my salary was even later than usual, I could claim under local legislation that I'd been effectively dismissed without cause and thus be eligible for long service payments (which I wouldn't if I had just quit). Even though I've suffered a big loss (hard to get a decent job here, which was what he was banking on) I feel much better not working for an exploitative scumbag (of course, it wasn't just me, everyone who worked for him got screwed, some of the females literally).
I have a secrete, I like to kill Mockingbirds.
... secret ... unless there is some subtlety going over my head
Re:One small point (Score:2, Interesting)
To make them even better, use a log book with prestamped, numbered pages (not done by you). You should be able to find them in most university bookstores. Ensure the book is designed in such a way that if a page is removed it not only breaks the numbering sequence (of course) but will also leave evidence (bits of paper stuck in the spine).
This way you can NEVER be accused of tearing out a page if you haven't.
To ensure you aren't accused of modifying anything, also ensure you cross out any blank writing spaces and NEVER use pencil, only pen.
Re:One small point (Score:1, Interesting)
You should consult a labor lawyer to clarify your position if this is the avenue you want to take.
Redundancy selections (Score:3, Interesting)
1) Who they think they're going to be able to generate revenue from in the future,
2) Which personalities they like,
3) How much a person costs to keep,
4) A suitable number of token managers to keep the troops happy (approx. 1 chief per 15 indians, no racial discrimination implied).
How about religion? (Score:3, Interesting)
Because if so, then that definitely provides a good reason not to work 12/7. 12/6, maybe, okay. 12/7, no.
[Actually, I'd kindof assume, it being America, that religion is legally frowned upon, and so the answer will be "constitutionally, it should, but in practice, it's okay to fire over religion. It's just not okay to fire over no religion." But I'd really like to know what the answer is.]
Form a Union! (Score:3, Interesting)
demand the overtime (actually DOUBLE time) and tell them you will all walk out in mass if they don't agree. Also have them sign an agreement guaranteeing everyone at least a year's employment after the contract is over (anti revenge clause).
If management doesn't agree they will doom the company by loosing the contract.
Bug the people who make the decisions (Score:1, Interesting)
I complained to my manager, to the HR department and to my VP (nicely). I let them know exactly how much overtime I put in and why. I wanted some type of compensation.
Our VP raised the issue all the way up and got approval for some compensation. In the end, everyone in our office got an extra paycheck, myself included, and I got a couple of weeks extra vacation in lieu of my overtime. Not perfect, but it was recognition, in difficult times. We are now hiring people to assist me, and I haven't had to put in any overtime in months. Everyone has become extra careful in planning time. There are also no questions asked if I need to work from home, leave early, or take more days off here and there in lieu of the overtime I put in before (so long as current projects are not heavily impacted).
All in all it's worked out well.
Re:This is where it pays to be religious. (Score:1, Interesting)
For instance, if a club (open only on Thu, Fri, and Sat) has an opening for a lounge singer, they are more than welcome to not hire someone whose religion requires they not work on Saturday. The basic requirements of the job say you must be at work on those three days. The law only requires that "reasonable accommodations" must be made, if possible.
That said, I would tell the spineless weasel of a PHB to go write the fscking code him(her)self. (My wife earns more than I do, so I could get away with that
SirWired
Re:To whoever modded... (Score:3, Interesting)
He DID know, that his employees worked on saturday and sunday as he ASKED them. So this was bullshit number one.
Bullshit number 2 is that he was sued by "the authorities". He was sued by the companies "Betriebsrat" (workers council, protecting the rights of the employees), because the employer has to negotiate such extra work with them. This is basically a good think, as it prevents companies from exploiting their employees, but gone bad in this case. The Betriebsrat was probably nuts, dunno.
But still very poor and angled reporting by BBC. Shame on them.