Working with ADHD? 1748
Famanoran asks: "I've recently been diagnosed ADHD ? and am now taking Ritalin. I've found that it helps me rather significantly, but I'm keen to try other things that may help. My question is to the ADHD'ers on slashdot: How have you coped with ADHD, and how have you found it affect your work performance? Do you object to having ADHD? Have you tried natural alternatives such as DPA/EPA (Omega3), 5-HTP (natural precursor to serotonin), and what were your results? Also - How do you find it working in groups of people, either as the only ADHD'er there, or in a group of ADHD'ers? Do you think that your ADHD contributes to your abilities technically, or is it a hinderance?" Previously, Ask Slashdot dealt with ADHD in children, now what suggestion do you have for the grown-ups, with the additional burden of a career, who find themselves in the same situation?
Talking Back to Ritalin (Score:1, Informative)
Hasn't really been a problem (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Me too! (Score:5, Informative)
Tell the doctor you want Wellbutrin - it works better and has far fewer side effects.
It varies by person, as everyone has a different body chemistry. You might find yourself with uncontrollable shaking, cold sweats, loss of balance, and a number of annoying side effects if it doesn't work for you. (It didn't for me)
Re:Well (Score:2, Informative)
ADHD isn't a disorder, it's more of a type of personality, you might notice that computers (assuming you're a geek) or anything you enjoy can hold you attention with no problem. It's just the other stuff - stuff not of your choosing, may seem to bore you. In this boredom, you get "off-topic" and you begin to think about other topics.
I also agree, lots of sugar probably won't help your hyperactivity. Caffine tho, might. Since it acts as a mild-stimulant. Which is what Ritalin and Dexedrine are - stimulants. They "narrow" your focus, and allow you to concentrate.
No Focus - Long Term Goals... (Score:2, Informative)
Three years later I finaly got sick and tired of the way my life was going. I could barely finish classes at school, and life just SUCKED in general. I had started and stopped treatments in the past and had mixed results. I decided to start a treatment with Adderall and stick to it. That was almost a year ago. Since then I have changed my major from CS to Medical and I have gone from a 2.0 GPA to a 3.6 with straight A's for the last two semesters.
For me treatment has worked, however there is no one treatment for everyone. I recomend you do your research, learn as much as you can about ADD. Listen to what your gut instinct is telling you, it may not be right but it probably knows the best direction for you. Lastly drug treatment is not the solution! For me it was the key that unlocked my concentration and thus made me do better in school which in turn has helped improve my mood and life outlook.
Good Luck to anyone in a similar situation.
educate yourself on the FMLA act (Score:1, Informative)
Regarding working with a mental disability, sometimes you are just as capable as a normal person, sometimes more, and sometimes waay less. I've had long periods where I have been unable to work unfortunately, but fortunately we have the Family and Medical Leave act in the US which allows for up to 12 weeks of unpaid job protected leave if necessary. Read more about it here: http://www.dol.gov/elaws/fmla.htm [dol.gov]. Hopefully you won't have to use it, but it is a nice safety net to have if you really need it at times.
best of luck with your condition. As one with a mental disability, I know that it can be a long frustrating road out of hell and a rocky one on the way, but there is hope, and many medications that can help.
Re:Read (Score:3, Informative)
Have you checked diet (Score:1, Informative)
I was diagnosed with ADHD as a kid back in 1985 (I'm now 21).
My parents tried a little known diet known as the Feingold Diet (named for Dr Feingold). Essentially the diet excludes most artifical colours and flavours, as well as certain fruits and vegetables.
Best way to start with it is an elimination diet. Eat the "safest" foods only (ie, boring, tasteless, but natural), then gradually add more interesting foods.
As a kid I went pretty hyper when I ate something - as an adult I just get figety and can't concentrate.
This certainly isn't a solution for everyone, but it never hurts to exhaust all possibilities (especially since this way you're not drugged out of your skull on ritalin) :)
(Sorry I couldn't elaborate a bit more! I'm at work)
DSV IV criteria for ADHD (Score:5, Informative)
(1) six (or more) of the following symptoms of INATTENTION have persisted for at least 6 months to a degree that is maladaptive and inconsistent with developmental level:
Inattention:
(a) often fails to give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes in schoolwork, work or other activities
(b) often has difficulty sustaining attention in tasks or play activities
(c) often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly
(d) often does not follow through on instructions and fails to finish schoolwork, chores, or duties in the workplace (not due to oppositional behavior or failure to understand instructions)
(e) often has difficulty organizing tasks and activities
(f) often avoids, dislikes, or is reluctant to engage in tasks that require sustained mental effort (such as schoolwork or homework)
(g) often loses things necessary for tasks or activities (e.g., toys, school assignments, pencils, books, or tools)
(h) is often easily distracted by extraneous stimuli
(i) is often forgetful in daily activities
(2) six (or more) of the following symptoms of HYPERACTIVITY-IMPULSIVITY have persisted for at least 6 months to a degree that is maladaptive and inconsistent with developmental level:
Hyperactivity
(a) often fidgets with hands or feet or squirms in seat
(b) often leaves seat in classroom or in other situations in which remaining seated is expected
(c) often runs about or climbs excessively in situations in which it is inappropriate (in adolescents or adults, may be limited to subjective feelings of restlessness)
(d) often has difficulty playing or engaging in leisure activities quietly
(e) is often "on the go" or often acts if "driven by a motor"
(f) often talks excessively
Impulsivity:
(g) often blurts out answers before questions have been completed
(h) often has difficulty awaiting turn
(i) often interrupts or intrudes on others (e.g., butts into conversations or games)
B. Some hyperatice-impulsive or inattentive symptoms that caused impairement were present before age 7 years.
C. Some impairment from the symptoms is present in two or more settings (e.g., at school [or work] and at home).
D. There must be clear evidence of clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning.
E. The symptoms do note occur exclusively during the course of a Pervasive Developmental Disorder, Schizophrenia, or other Psychotic Disorder and are not better accounted for by another mental disorder (e.g., Mood Disorder, Anxiety Disorder, Dissociative Disorder, or a Personality Disorder)
Alright, to answer your *Question* (Score:2, Informative)
To get some of the usual responses out of the way: Yes, kids/people get misdiagnosed all the time, but I don't care, because I wasn't. I've had to deal with this for years, and I can say that, at least for me, Ritalin has been a life-saver. I expected to not need it anymore when I became an adult, but it still gets me more focused than anything else.
I have not tried anything else, as Ritalin works fine for me, but yeah, feel free to experiment. ADHD is an incredibly inconsistant disease for me, somedays I have no difficulty at all focusing on whatever task is at hand, other times I feel like I'm my own five-year old self, with as little control over my actions as my parents had over me. So I don't think I could really give a good test run of any other substance unless I took several days off from the Ritalin, and then if it doesn't work, those are several days when I've had a much worse time concentrating at work.
As for working with others, I've never told anybody that I have ADHD and nobody has ever told me. I don't have a particularly bad time working with others, actually the usually keep me much more on track than if I'm by myself.
Lastly, do object to having ADHD? Yeah, maybe, it's an irritating and sometimes challenging disease, but by now, I really don't think I'd be who I am, for better or for worse, with out it. =)
ADHD has been seen as that "boy's disease" or "just not growing up" (but I think it's really all the posters making "wait, what was I talking about, ooh, shiny things" jokes who haven't grown up), but it's a real disease that many adults have to cope with and do cope with. Welcome to the club, Famanoran, and good luck.
ADHD as a sysadmin and Ephedra as a wonder drug. (Score:2, Informative)
I took Ritalin off and on from age 7-18. I stopped taking it, because at the time I hadn't had a dosage adjustment in several years, and my doctor just kept dolling out the same "30mg twice a day" settlement, and it didn't seem to have the affect that it used to.
I've tried many things since, ephedra, caffeine, ginseng, exercise/fresh air several times per day, etc. Eventually, once I get around to choosing a health insurance plan (that's the type of research that sucks, reading through dozens of pages of information on various health insurance plans for my company figuring out what is best), I'll get back on ritalin or an alternative. From what I remember, it involved a psychiatric evaluation and some observation & discussion before choosing a dosage, followed by regular (every other month) checkups from the doctor. It was especially annoying and expensive in the state of pennsylvania, because they required a physical every time a prescription was written, so my doctor would write several months at a time, ignoring the regulation. As usual, annoying drug addicts ruin everything.
Ephedra works best. Ephedra works better than ritalin did. Unfortunately in a very, very small percentage of the population it has bad side effects.. The funny thing is, a couple of high school students went and took 5 or 6 "stackers" or "yellow jackets" (common off the shelf variety) and then went and did football practice (I used to be in football, practice was brutal) and duh, they had heart attacks... In me, it allows me to focus on less things, finish projects, meet deadlines.. The only side effect is if I don't take one "stacker" per day, and I skip a week or so, the next time I take it alters my sleep patterns and I have to use a fair amount of will power to fix them. Taking more than one per day, and I'd be likely to stay up for 3 or 4 days.
Unfortunately it's now very hard to find, so I'm looking for new alternatives. I've been taking two half hour walks per day and showering right afterwards to help clear my mind, and that seems to be helping a bit.
I'll relate one thing. Interviews suck. Having
to go over the same boring details to 4 or 5 people over and over again. The only thing worse than interviews for me are company meetings. Company meetings are the main reason I run my own consulting company, and will hopefully never work for a company I do not run again. I can't stand listening to some overpaid windbag from stanford go on and on about product scope and market analysis.
My experience with medication. (Score:5, Informative)
Adderall is a mix of four amphetamines used to combat Attention Deficit Disorder and Narcolepsy. It was originally prescribed to the obese as a hunger suppressant under a different name. I originally started on 3 doses per day of Adderall. That was problematic, however, because I would become more forgetful as it wore off, meaning that I needed to remember to take my next dose when I was at my most forgetful. I now take the extended-release version called Adderall XR. I only take it once a day, and it's helped enormously.
I've only been medicated for a couple of years now, so I've noticed a stark difference in my ability to function normally. Life before I was diagnosed was filled with frustration. I sometimes found it incredibly difficult to concentrate even on things that I enjoyed doing, or that I really wanted to do. My homework grades were terrible but my test scores tended to be quite good. Now, with a combination of medication and an intentional reduction of potential distractions, I can work steadily all day if I need to.
There are drawbacks, however. It completely obliterates my appetite. I find that if I don't make an effort to eat 3 square meals a day, I will forget to eat at all. Not being one who needs to lose weight, it caused some problems in the beginning. I won't feel hungry, but I'll get very cranky, headachy, and will find it difficult to focus when I don't eat.
I also find that I can be a little cranky in the late afternoon when I'm coming off the medication. ADD medications like Ritalin and Adderall are highly addictive, which really sucks. After taking Adderall for a couple of years now, I find that I have the attention span of a gnat on cocaine if I forget to take it.
Do I object to having ADD? Sometimes. But when channeled correctly, it's a really amazing source of creative material. It can also be quite entertaining to my friends. I'm just really glad I'm just really glad I have some control of it now.
Attention Deficit Disorder is hard for many people to understand. I've had people tell me to my face that ADD is a sham and that I'm just lazy. Fortunately, it's not a topic that comes up often.
Unfortunately, I don't know much about these alternative treatments, but I'm certainly interested in learning more.
Re:Hasn't really been a problem (Score:3, Informative)
Newer medication (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Ok but first... (Score:2, Informative)
Think of ADD as rapid focus and a need for lots of external stimuli. People with ADD tend to be happiest when there is a lot of stuff going on around them, the more extreme cases can't even sit still in these situations. Also people with ADD tend to need a shorter feedback loop than other people. Think of a quiz in school, the feedback on the quiz might be 1 hour it might be 2 weeks. To the ADD person the timeline for feedback might be 10 seconds to one hour for activities they are doing. Video games provide this feedback very quickly. Also people with ADD tend to do best in One on One situations rahter than group situations, and in situations when a lot of stuff is going on around them.
Please next time you wish to say some blanket BS like "Well so and so can concentrate for hours on a video game, they must not have ADD," do your research!
MOD PARENT DOWN (Score:2, Informative)
The site is run by Scientologists.
How 'informative' do you think that post is now?
Remember there are multiple types of ADD (Score:1, Informative)
I like to compare my situtation to nerdy things like job scheduling. Adderall gives me the ability to context switch faster, even though the individual timeslices are smaller, I get more done and don't "deadlock".
I think the most important thing is to remember that AD(H)D medication is a serious drug, and you should be very cautious with it. Several doctors I've had have made recommendations to ever up my dosage (I take 15 mg, which is non-standard, since it is old in increments of 10) simply because it was simplier. I've even had a doctor ell me it was ok take an "extra" if I felt I "needed" it! (Dropped that guy like a hot rock). I don't take it on weekends. I don't drink coffee. I periodically take a drug "holiday" to see what happens without the chemical help. I'd recommend you do the same.
All that being said, I really think the drug has helped me.
AD[H]D: Superpowers, with a steep price to pay (Score:3, Informative)
However, in adults, especially adults who were not diagnosed as children, AD[H]D often co-occurs with a pervasive (mild) clinical depression, and a tremendous dose of ego damage resulting from having been told repeatedly in myriad ways that you're "not working up to your potential". (i.e., you could be good, but instead you're being bad, and obviously it's your fault.)
Learning to live really happily as an AD[H]D person can involve accepting all kinds of help: support from family, friends, and co-workers; psychotherapy; and medications such as Ritalin to help give the brain a more balanced level attentiveness (instead of only hyperfocused or totally scattered), and antidepressant medications (SSRIs), to help ease some of the inner self-flagellation that adult AD[H]Ders can do to themselves.
But fundamentally, there's one big lesson you and everyone around you have to learn: you don't perceive or process the world quite the same way other people do, regardless of what you (or they) wish. Acknowledge that, and you've started down a good path: finding your superpowers, living with your weaknesses, and getting support from people around you.
-Mark, diagnosed at age 30
Been there. Found a better way. (Score:2, Informative)
Once in college I took it on myself to seek help. I found then that I was ADHD though for a long time before then I thought I was. I was on several drugs at different points trying to find out which helped me focus. Wellbutrin, Ritalin were amoung them. Ritalen helped, but was undependable, it wore off too quickly, and gave erratic results.
For years I had been self medicating with coffee. I didn't know it at the time, but I knew that it made it easier to focus and calmed me down. Caffine was at one time used as a treatment, but was found to be too short lived. I found that I did better on caffine because I can sip coffee all day, I can't constantly take pills.
After years of working on this, I think I've found a solution. You MUST get a lot of excercise. I've found that that helps the most of anything. If I don't bust my ass doing something at least 4 times a week I can't think at all. Second, you need to watch what you eat. Healthy is the word, stay away from sugar, junkfood, and use caffine in moderation. A cup of coffee before and while you get down and work on something is just the thing, but don't drink it all the time. Ritalin may help, but it metabolizes too fast in my experience. Wellbutrin may help as well, but it depends on exactly how you react to it.
Ultimately, you must work with ADHD. It isn't a flaw, like someone posted earlier, its an adaptation. It can be a superb advantage if you learn how to use it. It requires a lot of patience (something you probably don't have much of if you have ADHD) and work, but eventually, you can learn to focus and use it.
Pointers:
-Eat well, low sugar, high protien, veggies are good to slow down how fast you metabolize food.
-Exercise LOTS. You'll find that you don't stay tired long and after you'll feel more focused and relaxed.
-Watch your sleep schedule. You will focus much better if you get enough sleep, avoid over sleeping, you'll feel lethargic all day.
-Use LISTS. You know you won't remember, so write it down and get into the habit of checking your notes often.
-ORGANISE! This is a huge problem for most folks with ADHD. You will have to work at it, and work to keep it up, but it will help you focus and waste less time.
I hope this helps. I've been working on this for years and just now went back to college after failing out five years ago. It's tough, but it can be done, and its very worth it when you learn to work with what you have.
Working with it is key. I tried forcing myself to do 2 hour study sessions, it doesn't work. Go ahead and let yourself work on 3 things at once. Take frequent breaks. You just have to build discipline to keep at those three things and not let them turn into 10 things.
Good luck. Its a tough road to run without drugs, but it can be a lot of fun too.
Ritalin + Vitamin B6 (Score:2, Informative)
Horrible hives from Wellbutrin (Score:4, Informative)
Mothering Magazine (Score:2, Informative)
If focuses on dealing with ADHD through your diet. What foods and additives to avoid, etc... The article touches on the Feingold diet for ADHD [feingold.org]
Some other helpful articles about dealing with ADD through diet:
[mothering.com]
ADHD & Diet: How Food Affects Mood
Does ADHD Even Exist?: The Ritalin Sham [mothering.com]
Congratulations! (Score:1, Informative)
I don't have time to go into how ADHD has affected me other than to say it's the story of my life. Looking back, it explains so very much.
I have a mild case, not sufficient to have kept me from earning multiple advanced degrees, etc., but everything was always way harder than it should have been. I like the focus, the clarity, and the calmness that Ritalin gives me and it greatly facilitates the coping behaviors I have developed over a long time. However, I can see that a number of ADHD behaviors are extremely deeply ingrained. Like any other long-term habits, they are difficult to break, but for the first time, I am able to start countering them, without feeling, for instance, that every cell in my body is telling me to procrastinate or do something else counterproductive.
Congratulations on finding out and good luck!
Its not what people think... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Me too! (Score:4, Informative)
Most medicines used for ADHD were originally not used for it, and since they are effective, they are used instead, since ritalin's side effects include lack of appetite, and, suprise, affects blood pressure and hypertension.
Really, it's almost as sad that the people warning you not to listen to "slashdot MD's" are retarded as the idea that someone might listen to one in the first place.
PS. I recoomend asking your doctor about wellbutrin, I have found that the SR works significantly better than most other medicines/combos I have taken (and I've been around the block with this)
Re:alternatives and cultural rant ahead... (Score:3, Informative)
This appears to be working for me. I've been getting out for walks every other day recently, just worked my way up to ~30 minute walks (brisk pace, keep the blood moving), and today I was able to stay focused enough to get a LOT of reading done. It's too soon to say whether this is going to be a lasting effect, but at the very least I'm getting in better physical shape. I chose every other day so I'd have a day to heal, probably don't need that at this point.
Another helpful change I made a couple years ago: I eliminated the major sources of refined sugar from my diet. Refined sugar feeds things that should not be fed. I don't feel sleepy all the time anymore, I don't get sick stomach all the time anymore, and the excess weight I put on after college melted away without the help of exercise. And don't even think about those "reduced fat" cookies and crap: they put in extra sugar to compensate. Check the labels.
Don't neglect getting your allergies dealt with too if you have those. Trying to think when your sinuses are swollen up is pretty difficult. See an allergist, get tested, and if need be take the antigen shots.
Gotta love these multivariable problems.
Re:Please be respectful on this topic (Score:2, Informative)
I believe you're referring to Strattera [strattera.com], by Eli Lilly. It's not a controlled substance, thereby getting around the triplicate form problem.
Chemistry in ADHD (Score:5, Informative)
The problem with the amphetamines is that being a schedule II drug it is had to find the doctor who is not hesitant at prescribing such, also you have at the start have a doctor appointment to have it refilled, after such you can probably get the doc just to write it where you can stop by and pick it up. Adderall - XR is adderall's time release based medication which can be negated by the crushing or chewing of capsules.
It would be my preference to go with Adderall-XR as doctors see it as a less abuse able substance, and I've found it to be the best in increasing concentration and productivity, in a side note it offers a perk in euphoria, for those in a down mood and Iâ(TM)ve found Ritalin in different accounts to be "rough" on the system
For fun from the prescribing PDF on Adderall Alkalinizing agentsâ"Gastrointestinal alkalinizing agents (sodium bicarbonate, etc.) increase absorption of Amphetamines. Co-administration of ADDERALL XRâ and gastrointestinal alkalinizing agents, such as antacids, should be avoided. Urinary alkalinizing agents (acetazolamide, some thiazides) increase the concentration of the non-ionized species of the amphetamine molecule, thereby decreasing urinary excretion. Both groups of agents increase blood levels and therefore potentiate the actions of amphetamines. TIME (HOURS)
Also in the view of amphetamines it is nothing like those found on the street and sadly so as the meth found will undoubtedly bring you up, it seem to lack the focus of the combination of the amphetamines offered by Adderall. For those looking to the street for their fix Iâ(TM)d urge you to give up the expensive and non productive habit, Sleepless nights and worn out bodies, and talk yourself into some disease.
Ritalin is the most popular. It is used mostly for treating children. Its generic form is methylphenidate or MPH. Studies have shown that MPH is up to 30% less effective than the brand name drug, Ritalin. It can cause tics in children. Those who take Ritalin do not develop tics. Ritalin begins to work within 20 minutes after you take it, and lasts up to 4 hours. An extended-release form of Ritalin, Ritalin SR, has been developed, but how long the drug lasts still varies among individuals. Class action lawsuits against the manufacturer of Ritalin, Novartis, have been dismissed in Texas and California. In both cases, the judges found that the plaintiffs had not shown sufficient evidence that Novartis conspired with psychiatrists to "overprescribe" Ritalin.
Dexedrine is second most common to Ritalin in use for treating ADD. It is used mostly for treating adolescents and adults. The generic form of Dexedrine, dextroamphetamine sulfate, is considered inferior to the name brand, and not as long-lasting. Dexedrine begins to work 30 minutes after you take it, and lasts about an hour longer than Ritalin. Dexedrine is listed in the PDR (Physician's Desk Reference) under "diet control" drugs; thus your insurance company may not cover it for treating ADD.
Cylert is the third most common stimulant for treating ADD. The generic name of Cylert is pemoline, but no generic drug is available. Cylert begins to work an hour after you take it, and you must take the medication for 1-2 weeks before you feel the full therapeutic effect. You should not skip doses, or go off Cylert "cold turkey". Dosages are must be gradually increased and decreased by your doctor. Cylert is more expensive than Ritalin or Dexedrine, and has a higher incidence of side-effects, such as insomnia and appetite suppression. There is also a possibility of liver damage.
Adderall, formerly Obetrol, is a newer stimulant, approved by the FDA in 1996. There is no generic. Adderall is a combination of Dextroamphetamine and Amphetamine; its
Personal experiences with ADHD, mood swings, etc. (Score:5, Informative)
1998 - added the minor things, like multi-vitamin, extra B vitamins, vitamin C, vitamin E, ginkgo biloba, this was about 4 years ago, and these additions just barely helped me cope. Sleep was still a great issue, with it normally taking two hours to go to sleep at night
1999 - added melatonin to the mix, nightly took 3mg, switched jobs, quit working at a systems integrator (tech work, systems and network support on the road) to join a chain of long-term care homes as their regional technical support
Fall 2001 - started seeing a "naturopath", drastically changed diet, followed "Blood Type Diet", recommended from the book "Eat Right for Your Type", amazing results, super high energy (probably a manic episode), but still the anxiety and sleeping issues persisted, added Alpha Lipoic Acid to assist the liver and as a potent antioxidant
Winter 2001 - added 5-HTP, fairly high doses, around 500mg per day
Spring 2002 - cut down on the 5-HTP, limited it to 200mg per day, added Piracetam, thinking clearer than ever
March 2002 - went to a corporate conference, ate all of those sweets and stuff that they give you that weren't on my diet, experienced the worst brain fog in my life, saw my chiropractor the next day for an adjustment, got in a conversation about feeling "fogged out", he suggested CLA, amazing results, eliminated the fog!
Summer 2002 - cut down 5-HTP to 150mg per day, added L-Tyrosine to the mix, it gave me more of my personality back, strongly recommended over stimulants, as it helps long-term even after cessation of usage
Fall 2002 - blood type diet slips really hard, the 5 pints a day are getting in the way of it. . . at this point, not taking any 5-HTP or melatonin, flying really high, going out all of the time, getting 4 - 6 hours sleep per night, have never thought clearer in my life. Started further extensive reading on 5-HTP, Tyrosine, mood disorders, ADD / ADHD, bipolar, etc., had inklings I was cyclothymic, a mild version of bipolar disorder
December 2002 - had been going downhill for the last bit of November, honestly thought there was a more serious problem, anxiety flared up again, saw a doctor, started on Paxil at 10mg per day, zapped all of the life out of me, dropped it down to 5mg per day, ceased taking 5-HTP due to concerns of potential serotinin syndrome or overload with SSRI
Christmas 2002 - crashed out completely, nasty family Christmas sucked all of the life out of me, I had been going downhill for the month of December
Mid January 2003 - Paxil was not performing for the depression, I had since stopped taking anything to change mood, such as Tyrosine, 5-HTP, started on 750mg per day of Depakote/Epival, took a real edge off, minimized long-term mood swings and mood / energy level changes in the day
February 2003 - the first doctor didn't agree I should be on Paxil, as it didn't address the attention symptoms, so he cut it out, and added Effexor SR in it's place, an SSNRI (Selective Serotonin Norepinephrine Reuptake Inhibitor) at 37.5 per day for a week, and then 75mg for three weeks
Late February 2003 - feeling so flatlined it's not even funny, no desire for anything remotely social, have been at home now for two weeks straight not moving off the couch, getting up only when desperately needed for work, not returning any phone messages, voice mail box full!
March 2003 - recontinued the Paxil at 5mg, much more personality back, sold my house, moved back in with my parents (lovely...
Re:Its called the "Lazy" gene. (Score:5, Informative)
Me. I've just been diagnosed with ADHD, and I loved school. Hell, I loved school so much I did pretty well, and ended up at MIT...and before you say I liked high school with ADHD because I managed to do really well (unlike most high school students with ADHD) then I'd point out I'm having a ridiculously hard time with MIT...but I still love it there.
So there. It's not a "lazy gene", nor necessarily even a disability. It's just a different way of absorbing information.
-amysarah
Ritalin Experience (Score:2, Informative)
I was "diagnosed" with ADD when I was 8 years old. The doctor prescribed methylphenidate (brand name: Ritalin) as the solution to the problem. My parents felt that the drug would increase my concentration and help me do better in school. The following school year, I was placed in a class with a teacher who actually gave a damn about whether or not we were learning and cared about the children. I began receiving good marks in school and my parents thought the drugs were helping.
The following year, I was placed in a class with a teacher who probably couldn't give a damn about anything except a paycheck. I dreaded school and did very poorly. I took the medicine for the next 2 years before I was old/smart enough to read about what I was actually taking. I decided to quit taking the Ritalin and found that I did excellent in courses where I cared about what I was learning.
Looking back now, I can see that amphetamines are by no means a solution to any "attention deficit disorder". I am not a doctor, but I would call attention deficit disorder the typical boredom that all of us feel from repetitive tasks that don't stimulate our minds. My parents debated getting my younger brother "tested" for ADD/ADHD when he was doing poorly in school. I recommended that they reconsider giving him ANY kind of drug to change his behavior. I see hypocrisy in the quest for a drug-free America while drugs are being prescribed to fix the weird social quirks we all have. What makes one drug different from another, besides some legal distinction? I digress.
The long and the sort of it is that I would recommend everyone who is considering taking Ritalin or any similar drug to fully research the effects of it, just as you would any other substance you would ingest.
Re:alternatives and cultural rant ahead... (Score:2, Informative)
One amazing alternative that I have seen work was presented by a friend of mine. He has a fairly sever version of the illness.
His parents diagnosed him at an early age, and chose to avoid the drugs as much as possible. Instead, he's made several lifestyle choices that have greatly improved his situation. These include things like altering his diet to include more of certain vitamins and minerals, lowering his sugar intake to as low as he can tolerate, avoiding stimulants in any form, limiting alcohol consumption (which he's recently stopped doing), excercising very frequently (he is actually pursuing a degree in Physical Education -- a Gym instructor), and otherwise living a very healthy and active life.
The signs of the illness are not completely gone. He is still flighty, and sometimes loses track of conversation. However, he has it mostly under control, and finds that he is able to function as a fairly normal member of society. He gets good grades, can dedicate himself to studying, works very hard, and has not really had the disease effect anything in his life other than the ammount of time he spends at teh gym.
I've seen many youth try a similar path, and it does work, although because it takes so much more work than the magic of ritalin, almost all have stopped.
If you want more info on his dietary and active needs. Please post a reply with email, and I'll look into it.
Re:ADHD=Bored Person Syndrome. (Score:5, Informative)
But the real problem with ADD is often how it interferes with normal life. You leave the house to mail a letter or a bill and end up in a bookstore a couple of hours later without the letter and unable to remember if it was actually mailed, or if it is sitting on a bookshelf someplace.
This is not a matter of people being lazy and your statement that it is shows how little you know or care about other people. My physics degree is proof enough that I am not lazy. Nor do I consider myself to be inferior to others. And I don't get any special benefits or privileges, despite your belief that I am somehow being coddled by the rest of society.
Re:Personal experiences with ADHD, mood swings, et (Score:5, Informative)
Theres no scientific proof for any of this. (Score:3, Informative)
Theres no scientific proof that ADHD even exists. This is all experienced based. People with ADHD reporting to so called experts, experts watching people with ADHD and conducting studies and tests.
Theres no true fact proof that ADHD is a physical disease. Its not even proven to be a disorder even though its treated like one.
Look, Anger could be considred a disorder, a person whos angry could be angry because of physical reasons, social reasons, or the enviornment, but if I were to declare Anger as a learning disability, and say "Well student X is always angry, this student cant learn, this student needs medication, this student needs to be studied"
This does not solve the persons problem. Please tell me why a person with a short temper is considered "normal" however someone with ADHD has something wrong with them.
Also please explain to me why people who have short tempers just need to take anger management classes, while a person with ADHD must go on all these meds?
Its the SAME kinda problem, I consider ADHD a personality trait. Just like short temper is a personality trait, and manic depression is a personality trait.
Pills can only hide a persons natural traits, it cannot change them. Without pills these people wont know what to do with themselves, I'm not saying ADHD doesnt exist, it does, I'm saying its treated like its some kinda disease that MUST be treated with drugs as the first option when most people in my opinion can learn to manage without drugs.
Now I will back up my claims with proof.
Here is how Ritalin works
"Using a technique called positron emission tomography, or PET, researchers at Brookhaven's Center for Imaging and Neurosciences studied dopamine levels in 11 male subjects. In two sessions, the volunteers were each given a dose of Ritalin, calculated using their body weight to correspond to the doses given to children with ADHD, or a placebo. While their brains were scanned to record dopamine levels, the subjects were asked to rate their feeling of restlessness and "high." Meanwhile, physicians monitored each subject's blood pressure and heart rate.
The results showed that brain dopamine levels increased significantly approximately 60 minutes following ingestion of the drug as compared to the placebo.
"We now know that by increasing the levels of extracellular dopamine, you can activate these motivational circuits and make the tasks that children are performing seem much more exciting," said Volkow. "By raising that level of interest, you can significantly increase the ability of the child to focus on the task."
Volkow added that Ritalin also works to suppress "background" firing of neurons not associated with task performance, allowing the brain to transmit a clearer signal. "Random activation of other cells can distract you, and children with ADHD are easily distracted," she said. "Ritalin suppresses that background firing and accentuates the specific activation, basically increasing the signal-to-noise ratio and increasing a child's ability to focus."
Source Source URL [bnl.gov]
Ritalin works by slowing the brain function down. How do you figure your brain is sharper by doing this? This is equal to taking a 64bit CPU, and running 32bit software in an attempt to filter out "bad" data which you consider "junk" or not u seful to keep the CPU more focused on a single task of say crunching random numbers.
Honestly while this can work, isnt it better to learn to fully use what you have?
Adderall works in the same way, however its a mixture of a few drugs. I am researching it as we speak but so far it seems to be in the same league as Ritalin.
But ok, lets assume you are right, and these drugs are completely safe, harmless with no side effects, lets say these drugs help make the mind sharp and help people concentrate, if this is true shouldnt they be marketed over the counter like anti depression, pain medication, and others?
Think about this.
Re:Hmmm? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Theres no scientific proof for any of this. (Score:2, Informative)
Its the SAME kinda problem, I consider ADHD a personality trait. Just like short temper is a personality trait, and manic depression is a personality trait.
I would really like to hear your definition of a personality trait.
Ritalin works by slowing the brain function down. How do you figure your brain is sharper by doing this? This is equal to taking a 64bit CPU, and running 32bit software in an attempt to filter out "bad" data which you consider "junk" or not u seful to keep the CPU more focused on a single task of say crunching random numbers.
Your CPU analogy doesn't really cut it in this instance. The medication allows people to focus on one activity instead of having their concentration bounce all over the place. It does not slow down their ability to process information.
My question to you is why that animosity towards ADHD. I am not saying that people aren't misdiagnosed all the time with ADHD, but some people are really helped out by the medication they are taking. But if you don't have ADHD, then you don't understand the difference.
Re:Me too! (Score:2, Informative)
Another reasonable book is "You mean I'm not Lazy, Crazy, or Stupid?". I don't remember the names of the 2 authors.
BTW, I don't have any commercial interest in either book.
Re:Theres no scientific proof for any of this. (Score:3, Informative)
manic depression is a personality trait ? Well... IIRC, the body undergoes chemical changes when a person goes into depression. It gets totally wacked out of balance with regards to a "healthy" body. The meds they feed you when you're depressive are barely there to balance your chemical back to a normal level.
Once someone goes into depression deep enough, no matter how much effort they put into it, they're chemically unbalanced, and will not likely pull out of it by themselves. Meds are not a miracle cure. You have to combine meds with self-help, and counselling.
Just dont strut in here claiming that these are not disorder. Whenever the body goes chemically off balance, you can safely claim that something is out of order.
As to why these meds are not available OTC, well, they have a potential for abuse, as well as a potential to help. The problem is that some people will abuse them (a minority) and the only way to prevent this is to restrict the sale of the meds. What are you going to come up with ? That addiction to drugs is only a personality trait ? Come on now...
Re:Hasn't really been a problem (Score:4, Informative)
I had the same problem on Adderall (spelling?). It worked wonders for my career. I used it for about a year and got promotions and bonuses and was a hero at the office...BUT, I ended up with zero creativity. I was no fun to be around. I didn't even want to be a consumer of creativity (stopped reading novels, watching movies, playing games, etc). I was also sleeping about 2-3 hours a night and constantly going full bore. I was burning myself out something fierce.
Finally my girlfriend of 6 years intervened. She talked to someone at the office, the office forced me to take a week's vacation, the gf convinced me to lay off the Adderall for that week, and it was like I woke up from a nightmare. I had no idea who I'd been for the past year.
So now I take nothing, but I'm in danger of being axed from the job as I can't seem to get anything done. I fritter around and procrastinate and make lists and have really good intentions, but never actually work. Which in turn makes me depressed and down on myself.
I wish I could find someplace in the middle of those two extremes, y'know?
YANANS (You Are Not A Neuroscientist) (Score:5, Informative)
I really, really didn't want to be drawn into this debate because, like religion and politics, you are often either preaching to the choir or a wall.
However, your utter misinterpration of the dopaminergic system, along with the completely fallacious claim that many people have made regarding lack of scientific evidence is egregious.
ADD is real, and it's a problem of the brain. Its etiology is not completely understood, but better understood everyday. Is it over-diagnosed? Probably. Is Ritalin over-prescribed? Probably. However, the boundary between what is and is not ADD is fuzzy, and a difference of degree, not quality.
First, quick factual rectification: Increasing dopamine in the front of the brain does not slow the brain. In the front of the brain (prefrontal cortex), increased dopamine is thought to help keep focus on current task demands by sharpening their representations in attractor networks of neurons. That is to say, the front of the brain keeps "online" what it is you intend to do right now. If this "goal" or "intention" fades or is disrupted by competing intentions, you get off track and distracted. In ADD patients, this is thought to happen too readily. Increasing dopamine levels (via agonists like ritalin) is thought to help lock down intentions and goals, keeping them "online" and the person "focused."
However, the majority of your post is a kind of armchair philosophizing about the place of ADD in the spectrum of psychiatric disorders. Unfortunately, convincing the general public of the reality of psychiatric illness and the utlity of psychoactive medications is a problem of paradigm. People, including you, are far and away dualists even when they claim not to be. And I use dualism here in an extended sense, to appy to psychology as it does to to metaphysics. People tend to be adamant that there is a distinction between the mind and the brain. People tend to think there are a class of "real" organic disorders of the brain, and then there a bunch of fluffy dysfunctions of the "mind" which are due to socialization, personality, will, judgment, and possibly genetics (although they don't see the contradiction of this last one).
Here's the truth: You are your brain, your brain is you. The brain gives wholly rise to the mind, and the mind is wholly derived from the function of the brain. One is a phenomenological construct, the other is the implementing hardware.
Here's another truth: The brain is plastic and every moment of experience changes it. Now, all organs changes and adapt, but no other organ is designed to be as profoundly plastic as the brain.
The first point invalidates the idea that some psychological problems are just "in people's heads" while others are "chemical imbalances." Every feature of a person's behavior is rooted in the brain. Some breakdowns in brain function have a gross, systematic nature that makes them easier to categorize (schizophrenia, parkinsons, alzheimer's, etc.). While some, like ADD are a little subtler. And some, like personality disorders, are subtler still and chronic. Generally, the more the disorder impacts the way the brain conveys personality, social interaction, or sense of "self" the more we believe the problem to be relegated to the artificial realm of "mind" not body.
The second point underscores the fact that both chemical and experiential treatment of the brain have real impact. By chemical, I mean psychopharmacology. By experiential, I mean things like psychotherapy, self-therapy, social interaction, changing the environment. All these things affect a person's mind and hence their brain (or vice versa).
Anyway, back to science: Here's a good reference on the scientific basis of ADD. Its a little dated, but it's by the same group that performed the neuroimaging study some AC linked to earlier (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/events/pradhd.htm ).
Re:Theres no scientific proof for any of this. (Score:2, Informative)
I second the drugs and therapy approach.
A lot of psychoactive drugs have a 'poop-out' effect, where even if they are quite effective in the beginning, their effectiveness drops radically to where they basically don't work. (as the brain works to get the chemical balance back to 'normal', even if that 'normal' state is outside of the healthy range)
You can use the drugs to create a 'window of opportunity' for you to begin the hard work of cognitive therapy, or whatever therapy you think will serve you for the rest of your life.
Because _if_ the drugs stop working, you better have a working solution outside of drugs.
My experiences with ADHD and thoughts on coping (Score:2, Informative)
Coping with ADHD (Score:3, Informative)
Lucky for me, my Mom had some sense, and did not keep me drugged up all of the time. During the school year, she made sure I took the medicine, in as low a dose as was effective, in order to help me in dealing with learning, school, other kids, etc, etc. ( you need someone to monitor you, I had *no* idea how I was doing... ) Off times ( and I think weekends ), I was off the medicine, in order to help me to learn to deal with how I was. I thank God every day she did.
A crutch is a good thing, but becoming reliant on it will not do you good long term. IHMO, you will do yourself a big favor if you get to where you can cope without.
I now work as a programmer, and, I think, not too bad a one. I have taken on tech lead type positions as well, and I think I have been moderately successfull in that as well. I have a family and kids, and life is pretty normal for me.
AFA differences between me and my coworkers and being effective on the job, I have always found that my thought processes were different than the "normal" people around me. I dont know if that is a result of ADHD, or just how I would have been without. I find that there is no real/marked qualitative or quantitative difference in my thinking, just different, I find that I am able to function in the same league as the best of the developers I find myself working with. I write bugs just like everyone else, find and fix them like others, function in archetechtural discussions like others.
David J. Davison
Re:Its called the "Lazy" gene. (Score:3, Informative)
1) Boredom and lack of challenge.
2) Lack of self-discipline
The self discipline comes with age, however if the first condition is not remidied the second continues to fester and may never properly develop.
I was diagnosed with hyperactivity in 1978.
I slept through almost all of my kindergarten class and the teacher decided that I should repeat it. My mother, knowing that I was definitely smart enough to pass kindergarten, decided to have me tested for learning disorders, psychological problems, Iq, etc.
The results came back that I was reading and doing math on a high school level and my IQ around 150. This in addition immense hyperactivity. Medication was recommended, but my mother was against it. She prefered to use diet (Feingold diet) to try to control my hyperactivity.
The public school I went to still declined to promote me to the first grade, regardless of my test scores, so my mother and father sent me to a private school.
The school I attended for 2 years was set up to have children "work at their own pace" without alot of "structure" that could inhibit them. In other words, they let us run free and provided us with a workbook that encapsulated the whole school year's worth of teaching. Needless to say, this was not the best environment for a super-hyper child.
After two years at private school I returned to a public magnet school. Again I took tests to determine my level of aptitude (because I had been in a private school) and again I tested exceptionally high. I entered the chronologically correct grade (third) and continued to progress chronologically through the grades.
The odd thing, to me, is that never in my young academic life had anyone ever done anything that would challenge me. The facts of my intelligence were plain to those around me. My ability to do the work given was never questioned. I even percieved things that others my age did not understand. The standardized tests I took each year showed 99 percentile in every category. And even thought I would altenately sleep and let my attention wander during class, when examintations were given I always passed with near perfect or perfect scores.
This continued until I reached the seventh grade. This year they were offering Algebra to certain students. I asked my math teacher if I could take Algebra, and she, knowing my aptitude requested that I be able to. I think, however, that the fact that I became a little too talkative in when I was bored kept me out of the class, because, even with the recomendation of my math teacher, I was denied.
Here's the kicker: after the selected students had taken the algebra course for half of a year, the entire grade was given the "algebra palcement test." There were 64 questions on the test. My score was a perfect 64 out of 64. The next best score was from one of the students who had been in the algebra class for half a year already. He scored slightly less than 50% correct. I took my test scores to the principal and asked to be admitted to the algrbra class. I was flatly refused. No reason was given even when I asked.
I would definitely say that was the turning point for me. I completely gave up. My distraction became a way of life for me (in school that is). The school responded by putting me in a class for people with learning disorders where, ironically, it was guaranteed that I would learn absolutely nothing.
The school also assigned me a psychiatrist who immediately gave me more tests and summarily handed me the application to the Mensa society and wondered if I could get into Intertel as well.
To me this was unbelievably fucked up. The school systems I had been in had no regard for my prowess or my intellectual needs, and regarded me as a disciplinary problem, but the psychiatrist they assigned to find out what was wrong with me figures I need to be i