Apple-Quality Intel Laptops? 229
arashiakari asks: "I have to buy a new laptop soon and I am having trouble settling on a brand or model except one that I cannot use. Apple's iBook laptop is beautiful, functional, lightweight, and made of high quality materials. I would buy one today except that I am a professional programmer and MUST use the same platform my compiler targets: Intel. So far each Intel-based laptop I have looked at is both grossly over-decorated (Compaq, Toshiba) and made of cheap flimsy materials (Dell), or has the combined problem of being overpriced and under-powered - with external bays for everything (Sony). IBM is expensive, but they are as close as I've found to "right" ... with Toshiba in second place. It seems like Intel-based laptops are either hot ugly tanks or oversized PDAs, there seems to be a scarcity of balanced well-thought-out and produced machines. Does the Slashdot have any suggestions?"
Emulation? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Emulation? (Score:2)
Re:Emulation? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Emulation? (Score:2)
Re:Emulation? (Score:2)
Re:Emulation? (Score:3, Informative)
Virtual PC emulates an x86 processor. VMware, as the name implies, creates a virtual machine. Two completely different tasks. Emulating, as you would imagine, has much greater overhead, so VPC is going to be much slower.
Re:Emulation? (Score:3, Interesting)
Intel != Windows (Score:2, Informative)
Virtual PC != Windows (Score:3, Informative)
There are exceptions, but that simply has to do with the OS not having drivers for the specific "hardware" Virtual PC emulates.
Re:Emulation? (Score:2)
Suggestion #1 (Score:5, Funny)
Problem solved.
Seriously, exactly what do you need? (Score:4, Informative)
If you are just targetting Intel processors with open source tools, you shouldn't have any problems. If you need to target a non-gnu platform, however, well then you need a really good laptop to compensate for the hassles.
I was fairly satisfied with a Sony VAIO that a previous employer insisted on paying too much for. (I submitted the specs for an iBook, but they insisted on spending more money) Of course it not only cost more, but ended up needing repairs more often.
I bought an iBook on my own, but really haven't seen a PC laptop that I would buy on my own yet.
My advise is to concentrate on the features you most like in a PowerBook/iBook. Is it the display? The ports? General durability? Running a GUI desktop and a Unix shell at the same time?
If the latter is a factor, as in you might want to do some network analysis in the field, then you want to pre-validate that the laptop you're looking at can be partitioned and dual-booted with either Linux or BSD.
Go with IBM Thinkpad (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Go with IBM Thinkpad (Score:2)
The Thinkpad was my very first laptop and having used other brands which my friends have and also in computer stores, I think they're by far the best out there.
Hardware is great quality, next day service, support is also good.
Re:Go with IBM Thinkpad (Score:2)
I like powernotebooks. (Score:2)
Power Notebooks [powernotebooks.com]
Someone else linked to them the other day on slashdot and I was very impressed. Especially the 17" one for $1700 !!! That's only $300 more than I paid for my 900MHz iBook 12.1"!!!!
Get the Thinkpad (Score:5, Insightful)
I've owned three of them, and all have been really great computers. I've owned other laptops, and they failed to measure up to the standard set by the Thinkpad.
My current machine is an A21m with 800mhz Pentium III, running Linux. All the hardware on the machine works with Linux. I have use it every day for work for the past 2.5 years, and it's just plain reliable. It's worth the money I paid for it, and I've noticed that the prices have dropped a lot. You can get a Thinkpad for much much less than what I paid for mine.
My next laptop will be an IBM Thinkpad.
Re:Get the Thinkpad (Score:3, Informative)
Thinkpads are really truly the only non-Apple laptop I've used that really did the job right. They're small, sturdy, and they do what they need to do. If you need something powerful, you'll need a desktop too, but really the resolution, speed and energy efficiency of the Thinkpads are really quite good.
Though of
Re:Get the Thinkpad (Score:2)
From what I've seen of Dell's, they're not really designing machines to be used on the move, they're designing computers you can (relatively) easily carry to another desk regularly, or sit in front of the TV with (assuming you don't mind burning your legs if you're in shorts.)
Re:Get the Thinkpad (Score:2)
The primary function of a portable computer is that it be portable, and if it's not physically capable of withstanding that function, it's not very wel
I love my Dell (Score:4, Interesting)
But it's got EVERYTHING internal (no need for external bays) and a beautiful 15" screen with resolution that is far higher than Apple's 15" laptop LCDs. Runs every game I have quite well.
It's an Inspiron 8200. Yes, it's not the most portable, but Dell's primary market is businesses. It doesn't matter if the unit is a little heavy if a bulk of your "traveling" is from your cube to the conference room. (Or in the case of where I work, half of the engineers have Dells that move between the docking station on their desk and the benchtop in the lab multiple times per day.)
That said - If you have the money, Thinkpads are the way to go. They are the most durable laptops on the market by far. (Unless you go into the "ruggedized" market, where units like the Panasonic Toughbook reign supreme.) If cost is an issue, Dell makes excellent laptops, especially the Inspiron 8000 series.
Re:I love my Dell (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Get the Thinkpad (Score:2, Informative)
Before you put your cash down, do your homework with Google to make sure that it will do what you want.
Ways to get Thinkpads for cheap (Score:5, Informative)
2. Become a stockholder. Stockholders also get access to discounts.
3. eBay. The IBM store on eBay [ebay.com] has some sweet deals.
If you save enough money you can go out and buy a cheap iBook as well. Have the best of both worlds.
Re:Ways to get Thinkpads for cheap (Score:2)
Re:Ways to get Thinkpads for cheap (Score:2)
Re:Ways to get Thinkpads for cheap (Score:4, Informative)
I vote for IBM (Score:5, Interesting)
Which Compaq? (Score:4, Informative)
We use the Evo N800c model at work. They look professional, are very reliable, and work with everything we've tried. We've been all Compaq except laptops up until the past year (IBM Thinkpads). Once I saw the newer Evo notebooks, we switched over to the Compaq laptops as well. The IBM's were great too, just pricey as you said. I don't even normally put my Compaq in a case unless I need extra peripherals or are traveling very far with it. It's pretty sturdy.
Before Thinkpads, we used all Toshibas. They were great a few years ago. I think their build-quality and reliability has gone down though, at least based on the ones we've bought.
Jason
Compaq (Score:3, Insightful)
Compaq consistently has the worst quality rep of any PC manufacturer. (Except Packard Smell... Thank God they're gone. Even eMachines is better than Compaq.) We routinely had Compaq laptops come in for service with displays that had simply stopped working.
Toshiba used to be excellent, but like you, I've heard that they've gone downhill over the past few years.
Dell's quality seems to oscillate every few years. Back when I was in school, all of their laptops a
Re:Compaq (Score:2)
Jason
Re:Oh, the one with the built-in coffee collector. (Score:2)
The lack of serial ports is not necessarily a design flaw. There is only so much room on the back of the device, so compaq dropped the serial port. If you need a serial terminal, you should be able to find a large number of _really_ o
Re:Oh, the one with the built-in coffee collector. (Score:2)
Re:Oh, the one with the built-in coffee collector. (Score:2)
I had no significant trouble running Linux on my evo n800c. I installed debian (using vmware to avoid making a boot cd), upgraded to unstable, compiled the kernel with vesa framebuffer support, and went from there. Yes, ACPI is broken, that's what you get from Compaq... there are fairly simple ways to fix that. You can also choose to use the radeon drivers for X, but there are some issues with closing the lid then (i think those are fixable too, i just di
Re:Oh, the one with the built-in coffee collector. (Score:2)
Jason
Find a good trade-off, and choose. (Score:4, Informative)
Another poster suggested testing your apps in VPC on the Mac, but I think a virtual machine is the last place you want to be debugging test code. Any chance you could move to high level development? That way the test platform wouldn't really matter, just use your OO language of choice.
Prefer debugging on a virtual machine (Score:2)
Are you writing device drivers or applications?
IBM (Score:4, Interesting)
I couldn't work without my notebook...and I'm not giving up this T30 for anything...but maybe a T40.
Re:IBM (Score:2, Informative)
That being said, I got my wife an A21 for her use (graduate student / teaching), and we've certainly been very happy with that (the employee discount was very nice, too). My current primary x86 workstation at work is a T30, which plays nicely at home with the integrated wireless card (Cisco Airport 340/350).
Compared to other laptos I've used in the past, the Thinkpads do seem to be a little more forgiving of a little abuse, and from a hardware standpoint are quite a bit
Re:IBM (Score:2)
Did you check out Fujitsu--Offline? (Score:5, Informative)
All in all, it's the tiny bits of design detail that catch my attention on this well built pc, fujitsu actually manufacture it themselve in Japan, unlike others that usually outsource their production line to taiwan.
I would suggest you to go and check out the physical product yourself, ask for a live demo, try launching programs, use the disk, connect to an external mouse just like how you'd use the computer; a 20 minute of physical test is much better then a 2 weeks of reading online reviews.
Re:Did you check out Fujitsu--Offline? (Score:2)
You either meant to say PowerBooks, [apple.com] which ship with combo (DVD/CD-RW) drives and Superdrives (DVD-R/CD-RW), or you meant to say that the Fujitsu has a combo drive like the ones in the iBooks [apple.com] which do not have a Superdrive.
Judging from what I see on product pages [premiopc.com] for the Fujitsu LifeBook S6000 you meant to say combo drive, since that is what they have.
I should also point out in addition that the PowerBook drives are slot-loading, while the F
Re:Did you check out Fujitsu--Offline? (Score:2)
I have a S-4542 that's pushing 3 years old and I could not have been happier with. I've beat on it a lot and it hasn't skipped a beat.
I'm planning on replacing it with another Fujitsu S-series in the fall.
Sharp, Panasonic (Score:2, Informative)
Panasonic Let's Note [panasonic.jp] Again, smaller and lighter than Apple's iBrick.
It continues to amaze me that people look at the iBook as some kind of zenith of hardware design when it is bigger, heavier, and has only one mouse button compared to the Windows-based alternatives. I guess if you are comparing the Apple to an IBM or Dell laptop you'd have a point but with all sorts of more stylishly
Re:Sharp, Panasonic (Score:2)
Most IBM's models and many Dell's models kick Apple in the ass in terms of durability, performance, endurance, build quality, and many other parameters. Some of them are obscenely big, but that's because they were not designed to be small. Those before P-M eat obscene amounts of power, but that's not IBM's/Dell's fault. In the portable range, IBM and Dell have models to compete with Apple formidably. Design is not just about flashy looks. Some Vaio models look awesome and work
Re:Sharp, Panasonic (Score:2)
Those are nice, but they have thesame problem all subnotebooks have: crappy 3D.
God, I really wish someone would come out with a subnotebook, preferably a form factor like the Portege 2000/R100 series, or Vaio SR-series, or anything small and cool like you find on http://www.dynamism.com/ - but with some muscle for 3D, an Radeon mobility 9000 would be nice for instance. I don't care that much about processor speed, harddrive space, optical drive, etc.
The closest I got was the 12" Powerbook, but Nvidia on P
One mouse button is superior on laptops. (Score:2)
However, using a laptop standalone I really prefer having one mouse button. I find it a lot easier to chord the mouse button using keys than constantly having my thumb reach for an annoyingly placeed second button, or hitting one when I meant to hit the other (which is what happens when both are convieniently placed).
Seriously, even Windows laptops could benefit by just having one button and chording the others.
Re:Sharp, Panasonic (Score:2, Funny)
If someone wants a laptop for travel, it's likely they won't want to plug in external widgets for basic functionality like a pointing device.
Re:Sharp, Panasonic (Score:2)
Re:Sharp, Panasonic (Score:2)
It's not like it's the most common command on the planet...
Re:Sharp, Panasonic (Score:2)
No, then you have the problem of accidentally hitting the wrong button modifier. I'm not seeing the advantage outside of some serious klunkiness.
devestating if for instance your buffer contains 'rm -rf /' and you
Re:Sharp, Panasonic (Score:2)
It is much less likely for the cat to hit fn-ctrl than it is to press a single mouse button.
I might close those root shells, eh?
As a systems administrator, that would be pretty pointless... how can I work without a root shell (and no, I won't type 'sudo' before every command)
IBM Thinkpad (Score:2)
(I.e. there are FAQs on IBM's support site discussing how to run Linux on the models I've used.)
Fujitsu and Sharp (Score:3, Informative)
Alienware? (Score:5, Informative)
With all the big names flying around, have you considered an Alienware [alienware.com] machine? They're not the lightest in the world but they look to be fairly high quality.
They bill for games, but performance is performance.
Re:Alienware? (Score:2)
As long as you don't mind paying twice the reasonable price for a computer they will take a year to deliver.
I own one of 'em (Score:2)
Stay away (Score:2)
i.e. say goodbye to battery life and good thermal performance.
Re:Alienware? (Score:2)
Are you saying that Alienware has a "still good quality but doesn't look like a pro wrestler's sunday suit" section of their catalog that they just don't, for whatever reason, care to share with the web-browsin
Re:Alienware? (Score:4, Informative)
sager: sagernotebook.com
powernotebooks: powernotebooks.com
check out Polywell (Score:3, Interesting)
What about crosscompiling? (Score:2, Interesting)
same boat (Score:2, Insightful)
I bought a desktop replacement a month ago (Score:3, Informative)
I wanted something powerful, but this was for home, so price was very much a consideration. I looked hard at a couple of Toshiba's, and at the Dell range, but the IBM came in at a slightly lower price for the features I wanted, and I know from experience that Thinkpads are high quality. I did also look at the iBooks, but the prices were way too high for the feature set.
For what it's worth, I wanted 40 Gb / 512 Mb/ DVD/CR-RW combo / 15" screen / XP Pro / 2 GHz or better processor. Size / Weight / battery life weren't an issue. The G40 I bought has a 2.4 GHz processor. Unlike most Thinkpads, it doesn't have removable drives. I was willing to cut the iBook some slack on processor speed (although the ones I tried in store were very slow; they were short on RAM as displayed).
Relative price probably varies from country to country, and month to month, so if you live in a different country from me (probable), and since my purchase was a month ago, you might find something else works better for you.
Sager (Score:5, Informative)
Sager laptop owner forums [sagerforums.com]
Sager reseller [pctorque.com]
It may be a somewhat unknown brand, but I have been totally blown away with it. Check out the specs and the forums.
Re:Sager (Score:2, Interesting)
sager makes the best laptop for what you're lookign for. a friend of mine has one and that thing is nice to use.
why Porche of course ;) (Score:3, Informative)
This is expected... (Score:5, Informative)
One reason...they build their own Notebooks...take a look at this page [powernotebooks.com] and then you'll understand why...
The short answer is Alienware, Toshiba, Dell, Compaq, etc are all made by the same companies...chances are they are all the same laptop.
Sony, IBM, and Apple all used to design their own notebooks...Apple kind of has to (yet they still use ODMs to assemble their boxen), and Sony and IBM have started to slip recently (using some of Quanta's ODM systems).
But if you want to find out how good the notebook is, find out who really made it.
Of course, you can always buy from the site that I linked to. They will sell notebooks without an OS and even have a Linux Forum. Not to mention they have unmatched customer service.
How durable do you want? (Score:4, Interesting)
I've picked up two used Panasonic Toughbooks on eBay and they've been attention-getters ever since. How many laptops can you stand on, throw across the room, use as hammers, and use in the rain, all while your favorite mp3s are playing?
I'm a big form-follows-function guy. The Toughbooks are all black, magnesium alloy with rubber covers over the ports. They're elegant in the same way a Beretta pistol is a work of art.
I've taken to keeping my Tougbook in a bag lately, not to protect it from the outside world, but to protect the outside world from it. The rubber feet came off the bottom some time ago, and the metal case has a tendency to mar floors if I drop it. I do that sometimes just for effect.
I presently own two Toughbooks: a CF-25, which is a full-size machine (comparable to any other laptop). It's a Pentium 150 with a nice comfy keyboard, 1024x768 screen behind a polycarbonate sheet, three(!) PCMCIA slots, and a gel pad surrounding the hard drive, which I upgraded from 4 gig to 10. The lack of CardBus and USB finally forced me to upgrade to my present machine, which is a...
CF-17, a Celeron 300 subnotebook. It's petite, the (touch)screen is only 800x600, and the keyboard takes some getting used to. With 128 meg and the 20 gig drive I dropped in it, it's more power than I need. (My desktop is only a 300MHz machine, for comparison.) It's got a single USB1.1 port, and I occasionally stick a 480Mb/s "hi speed" USB card in the slot when I need to use an external burner.
There are of course more recent Toughbook models, up to Pentium III and probably faster, but my budget and needs are more modest. Lately Panasonic's come out with a few "semi"-rugged models, which translates to "beats the crap out of your Dell, but won't survive a 10' drop onto concrete like the others". They're worth looking into if you're not the type to occasionally toss a load of 2x4's into your truck without noticing the laptop sitting there.
P.S. I'm not affiliated with Panasonic in any way, just a loyal customer. I could've probably sold a dozen of these machines to people who've been impressed by mine, I should see about becoming a dealer.
Re:How durable do you want? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:How durable do you want? (Score:2, Insightful)
You see, when my 200lbs-aunt kneed on my iBook, the screen just broke.. without any reason..
Real men use computers made of steel.. err.. titanium !
www.netlux.com (Score:2)
VERY impressed. There is also the added benefit of
being able to buy without an OS installed.
Re:www.netlux.com (Score:2)
Thinkpad for sure (Score:3, Informative)
A good friend of mine... (Score:2, Interesting)
There are some things I don't
Fujitsu or IBM (Score:2, Interesting)
If you want to spend money, and not on two fujitsu laptops, go with IBM. They use decent plastic and good designs. They are some of the more intelligently designed laptops out
Flimsy ? (Score:3, Interesting)
However, you should be able to find a comparable and cheaper machine in its lower-end brother, the D500.
You just need to get a dell and install Oracle... (Score:3, Funny)
IBM Thinkpad - another "for" vote (Score:3, Informative)
I recommend the IBM Thinkpad as well. I hated laptops but I have just spent two years using a 600X and it has made a convert out of me. I just bought a certified pre-owned T30 of my own from the IBM web site.
My only real complaint is that I didn't get the !@#$% CDROMs for the Windows XP that is installed on it. You are supposed to be satisfied with the recovery partition. The story is if you have a problem with the recovery partition, and the system is under warranty, IBM will fix it ASAP. What I want to know is what am I supposed to do if it's 2:00 in the morning or if the unit is no longer under warranty?
Also, it is possible for the system to get to the point where you can't boot to access the recovery partition. In that case you are supposed to use a recovery floppy - except there is no floppy drive on the system and there's no documentation on what to put on a bootable CDROM (the floppy is built by some utility)!
Even if I wanted to pay for it twice and I bought a retail copy of XP I still lose because now I don't have the IBM-specific drivers and utilities.
Of course, IBM is not the company sticking it to people here, that "honor" belongs to Microsoft and their utterly delusional paranoia that someone might steal a copy of Windows. You can hardly get a PC that doesn't come with Windows and by the time a new version of Windows comes out your hardware that is running the previous version is obsolete so there is very little reason to actually steal Windows.
Powerbook with VirtualPC... no, really! (Score:4, Interesting)
On a 667 Mhz laptop, i can use visual studio without complaints. Yes, it's slower than it would be on a P4 notebook. Let me tell you why I don't care: optimization!
But then again, maybe I'm a maniac.
Anyway, based on my experience, I'd suggest that you not rule Apple out yet... Unless you're doing hardware drivers or video games, the emulation won't be a huge issue... And the reliability and design on these laptops are almost everything the zealots say they are
Give programmers slow computers (Score:3, Insightful)
Seriously, I agree with the "give programmers slow computers" bit. To get the best code, give 'em slower computers with lots of fancy add-ons (multiple monitors, etc) so that you get efficient code that properly supports everything.
IBM store on eBay (Score:3, Informative)
You said you like their laptops, but they are expensive, so you might want to check it out. They sell both new and factory refurbished stuff there.
IBM Thinkpad R40 (Score:3, Informative)
That's easy . . . (Score:4, Insightful)
Next question . . .
Re: (Score:2)
Quality or Durability? (Score:2)
Another vote for a Thinkpad... (for only $1149!) (Score:2)
For the people who are saying Thinkpads are too expensive, I just got word of a deal today on the Thinkpad T40. This is from PC Connection, which is an IBM reseller. (I don't work there, but my friend has a business account with them.) Th
Avoid Toshiba (Score:2)
Virtual PC (Score:2)
Recent releases of Virtual PC are working amazingly well. Yes, it's an emulation, but no, it's not slow. Visual Studio runs flawlessly if this is what you need.
Latitude C640 (Score:2)
Now that I have that out of the way, you should look at the Latitude C640. That thing is a rock, just about the right size and you can upgrade the heck out of it. Then again, when I goto Fry's, I drool over those iBooks, but they are a bit out of range for me.
The IBM thinkpads I've seen all belonged to friends of mine. They were pretty old(circa 1996), but sturdy and still alive and kicking.
Re:Latitude C640 (Score:2)
IBM and Apple (Score:2)
I won't repeat the things others have said about laptops from both Apple and IBM, although I will give you a few anecdotes:
1) I'm an IT guy for a small medical company. Every so often we pick up used laptops for cheap -- we're an NGO, so that counts as an in-kind donation -- and usually, they're IBM's. Crazier still, these laptops that were build sometimes close to a DECADE ago still work fine, and their screens have no burned-out pixels. I hate Windows at this point (having made the switch to Mac OSX
Eurocom Laptop .. (Score:2, Interesting)
'Nuf said
Dell's are bad? (Score:2)
Oh well, that's what I get for trying to look omniscient.
Re:Holy Crap (Score:4, Funny)
Think Different indeed.
Re:Holy Crap (Score:2)
How very nice for you! (Score:2)
Re:How very nice for you! (Score:2)
If you like Macs and want to work with Macs, get a job in the goddamn Mac division of a company, or work at a Mac software company. Yes, if you're working at a company that produces an AIX debugger, you're probably not going to be doing anything except AIX code unless you switch companies.
But of course! (Score:2)
Apple's titaniums are flimsy (Score:3, Informative)