On Obtaining Appropriate Compensation... 184
wpc4 asks: "I've been working at my current place of employment in California for going on 2.5 years. I work for a rather big HMO providing IT support for over 2000 users. In my time there I have had no negative feedback, I am the "go to" for the department, I have improved our service area's image to other IT departments in our organization, had one promotion, and so forth. I am currently making over $5k less than the minimum for my title, while some new employees just got hired with the same title and lesser skills as myself and were hired on at over 30% more than I make, yet I have 2.5 years of seniority. Since I'm not union I don't appear to have any way of trying to get myself compensated appropriately, is there anything in the California labor laws that I can pull into play? Any suggestions at all before I look for other employment?"
Since you didn't mention it... (Score:5, Insightful)
The points you make are all reasonable. If you're genuinely as useful as you claim, management would certainly be receptive, especially in light of the discrepancy between your salary and that of the new hires (which they may simply not realize until you point it out). This could very well end up being a non-issue for you.
And don't threaten to quit on your initial approach, if you do ask. Most of my bosses have never responded well to confrontational employees, if they weren't given the chance to right a wrong in the first place.
Ask. (Score:5, Insightful)
There is often a "loyalty penalty" in organizations. Someone who works for many years and gets yearly raises will make less than someone who comes in at market rates. It sucks but it's very common.
Re:Since you didn't mention it... (Score:5, Insightful)
Absolutely -- before getting a lawyer (which won't help) or threatening to walk, ask. It's extremely unlikely anything worse will happen than them saying no, and if you're doing a good job and making below minimum for your title, you're in a relatively good position.
Making less then the minimum? (Score:0, Insightful)
I am currently making over $5k less than the minimum for my title
Huh? How can you be making less than the minimum? What minimum are you talking about?
Go to HR (Score:4, Insightful)
1. Update your resume and get it out there.
2.Approach your boss and HR about a salary adjustment. Not a raise, a salary adjustment.
A Salary adjustment is justified by bringing your compensation in line with new hires with the same title and grade.
A Raise is based on merit and a review.
Then again, is $200/month after taxes worth raising a stink? I tend to not worry until the discrepancy is closer to 10%.
Either way, first get the resume out there for a week or two. You will need to see what is happening incase the alternative given by the company is that you will have to wait for your review.
Just remember, a salary is better than unemployment.
There is no law to protect you, only company policy. Unless you really want the definition of "at will employment."
Or to learn how a 1 person layoff comes about.
What's wrong with our country? (Score:5, Insightful)
Seniority should mean crap imo. I think this concept of seniority is blown to shreds when the less senior member of a department is more valuable and know more then the senior ranking member.
Talk about value. You have a value to this company. If you guess that value, and believe you should be paid more then act on it. If you are wrong (over inflated ego) be prepared to be slapped down.
-Malakai
Re:IANAL, so here goes... (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't understand this mindset. It's insanity. No wonder you can't throw a stone and not hit a lawyer these days (who will sue you).
-malakai
You may have to show another offer (Score:3, Insightful)
But, depending on where you work some companies will only do large salary adjustments if you have an offer from somewhere else for them to match/beat. Even if they don't have a policy like this, having an offer from somewhere else gives you leverage for getting a raise.
Ask, but have a backup plan (Score:5, Insightful)
But has others have said, under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you say anything like "or else I walk". NEVER.
HOWEVER, you should begin preparing a backup strategy - update your resumee and start looking at other jobs in the area. Begin asking yourself if you are willing to relocate. In short, start looking for another job.
This is for the following reasons:
It is far better to start looking NOW, while you are relatively cool about it, than to get so pissed off that one day your mouth acts before your brain. I have a friend who did that - told them "Take this job and shove it" and walked out. He damn near lost his car and home before getting another job, and that was during better times than now!
Re:Making less then the minimum? (Score:4, Insightful)
Insightful? It isn't obvious? Most places have a salary range for any given title. "The miminum we pay a nurse is $16 an hour". He's below that. Using the example I gave, he's a nurse making $13 an hour. Not trying to bash you (or the moderator) dude, but I'm a little baffled as to why that comment didn't make sense to you.
My question is: did he get into that position by a field promotion, or did they hold him back because he didn't have a full education in his field or something?
Re:Go to HR (Score:4, Insightful)
Not sure how that would happen. Presuming the resume (well, mine is a CV) is going to reputable employment agencies, then they will always consult you first before passing it on to a prospective employer. The agency wants to look like an idiot just as little as you do.
I occasionally get calls from agencies 18 months after being placed in a permanent post, so my CV is definitely 'out there' despite my not having pushed it.
There is no harm in this. You are not going to get fired simply for having been in touch with an employment agency months ago, or now.
Re:Since you didn't mention it... (Score:2, Insightful)
It's glib, but anytime you think you're indispensable, stick your hand in a bucket of water and when you pull it out see how big a hole it leaves. [linuxplanet.com]
Remember that when you walk in to the office.
Very good point... (Score:5, Insightful)
That being said, I don't think you can assume that management is "receptive", even if you're a good employee. Management does stupid shortsighted things all the time -- that's what keeps Scott Adams in business! This particular situation is probably not due to malice or prejudice, but you really can't rule it out either.
The very first issue is to answer the question, Why are you being passed over? It might be simple oversight. It might be that somebody just doesn't like you. It might even be for a perfectly good reason you know nothing about.
Re:Go to HR (Score:3, Insightful)
Presuming the resume (well, mine is a CV) is going to reputable employment agencies,
People misunderstand. Things get screwed up. And if you post on dice.com or something, all bets are off. I've seen people with the best of intentions get into trouble by putting out a resume before they were ready to.
Re:Since you didn't mention it... (Score:3, Insightful)
By not seeking other employment you are encouraging them to screw their employees. You are rewarding them for screwing you (by staying.) Your employer has no other way of learning why underpaying employees is bad.
The longer you stay underpaid, the more they are encouraged to do the same to others.
Hmmmm. I think I'll go update *my* resumé now...
do you like your job? (Score:2, Insightful)
I respectfully disagree (Score:5, Insightful)
Look at it from the boss's perspective - you just had to bribe an employee to stay. Now, how far do you trust that employee?
Just as I recommended to the employee to have a backup plan, I would recommend to the boss to have a backup plan - namely, start de-emphasising that employee - get them off critical path, get a second employee to be able to cover for them, start looking at how to replace them.
You are correct in that looking for another job might cause one to mentally commit to leaving, creating a self-forefilling prophecy. So would the boss's logical reaction: he is going to become able to replace the employee, and may very well do so.
If you have to threaten to quit in order to get your raise, you don't want to be working there.
Most bosses are clueful enough to realize that if an employee is asking about their salary, failure to meet the employee's request will result in the employee leaving - you'd have to be pretty stupid to say "Oh, you won't pay me what I'm worth. OK, well, back to my cube I go, dohp-dee-doh." And if your boss IS truly so stupid that he doesn't realise that, then do you want to be working for him?
An alternative compensation (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Since you didn't mention it... (Score:5, Insightful)
If your boss is "Trying" to get this fixed, and its been more than three months with no solution, your boss is not doing anything.
Either he doesnt' think you're worth the new money, or your company is too dysfunctional.
Start looking elsewhere. If you really aren't being paid what you're worth, and the company has had three months to rectify it and hasn't
IF they are hiring new people at %30 more but say that they don't ahve room in the budget, they are lying.
They have room in the budget for the new people.
I think either your boss doesn't value you as much as those new people (it happens, even with people who are actually good employees) or he figure's your'e a sap who he can string along.
Get your resume in shape and get out of there.
Don't be a sap.
Oh, and screw this "they owe it to me" crap-- they don't owe you anything, and that's what you're getting, so end the relationship. Let your boss know you know this is absurd, or kills his ass until you leave- its your call. But its time for you to tak responsibility for the situation. Find someone who will pay you what you're worth.
Not because they "owe" it to you-- because they value you.
Re:An alternative compensation (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What's wrong with our country? (Score:3, Insightful)
That's a load of crap.
Anyone can negotiated a work contract, and who says it has to be tedious?
I've negotiated every single one of mine.
Unions are organized crime- they exist only to form close shops and force employees to pay a cut of their salary to them for this "service" which they never perform- because they union learns quickly if they lety the company pay them off, they get more money! So the union gets paid off by the company, and the workers pay them as well, and they spend their time talking to mafia bosses.
Only a sucker voluntarily joins a union. (At least as the unions are in the USA).
Re:Making less then the minimum? (Score:3, Insightful)
From the context, it should be obvious that our complainant is stating that he makes $5k less than the average minimum paid for his level of experience, wherein "minimum" is the lower/lowest amount in the range normally paid the people doing the same job in his/her geographical area.
Not to be condescending, but professionals have no mandated minimum salaries, so the meaning should have been unambiguous.
Re:Working is a privilege... not a right! (Score:3, Insightful)
Employing ME is a privilege, not a right - and you have to pay me a fair sum for my time, enough so I don't go and spend my time working for someone else, or (heaven forbid) spend my time doing things for my own benefit, such as spending time with loved ones.
The ball is not just in my court, it's also in the court of my employer.
Re:What's wrong with our country? (Score:4, Insightful)
If a union employee is doing a bad job at work, it's nearly impossible to fire them. They can be incredibly abusive to everyone, and the company can't do a thing about it.
Before you go spouting off about what you think unions are, you should go work in a car factory for a while as a supervisor. You'll change your tune quickly.
Education? (Score:3, Insightful)
If you do have a degree, then you need to do some work. As many have suggested, sit down with the management, explain your position, and flat out ask them why you are being paid less. Prepare a resume of sorts that describes all of the ways you have contributed and improved things for your company. Any statistics and dollar figures you can use are the best ways to do this. Management likes to see cold hard numbers and dollar signs showing you saved money and increased efficiency. Make it as clear and objective as you can. If they refuse to look into the discrepancy, start looking for someplace else to work... and let them know you will be doing so.
Good luck!
HOWTO negotiate (Score:3, Insightful)
never threaten (Score:3, Insightful)
THEN, you tell your boss that, while you've enjoyed your run here, you've been made a better offer. Bring some boxes so you can clear out.
However! this is when your boss, who really stood to lose nothing before, may push harder for you to get a raise rather than losing you.
This was common practice where I used to work.
You never hung on up recruiters (always be polite) and keep your resume up to date and take a periodic long lunch for an interview.
I friend use to take 2 hrs every Wednesday afternoon and talk to other companies. He had a new boss who dicked around on his expense reports ("you're making me spend 4 hrs of my time trying to get reimbursed for $150 when you bill me out at $200/hr? Are you high?").
When new boss asked where he was going on his Wednesday, he said "job interview." and left. New Boss asked around, learned of the habit and knew that if they weren't a Good Place for this lucrative person to work, he'd leave. When my friend returned (from an interview at a hellish place), his signed and approved expense reports were on his desk.
If you truly get a better offer, by all means take it, but let your company make a counter offer and weigh that.
So Never threaten to leave.
Give notice and threaten not to stay. Unemployment sucks.
Re:What's wrong with our country? (Score:4, Insightful)
And Henry Ford paid his workers the highest wages in the country, also without unions.
Fact of the matter is, a worker who didn't like Henries no-talking rule could go work somewhere else for less money.
It was a trade off the worker was free to make.
With unions-- you don't get to make that choice. You get what the union "negotiates" for you, and you don't get to work out a better deal with the employer.
IF unions really provided a good service, they wouldnt' force people to join the union in order to work there. That they do is all the proof that's necessary that they are fundamentally corrupt.
Your innocent belief that the union isn't paid off by the company to fuck over its members is sweet, but foolish.
I'm not unionized, and I don't get fucked over by my employers. I wonder why that is.... according to you, I'm incompetant to negotate my own salary and so I must be getting fucked over and yet I make lots of money-- not $0.65 an hour.
The reality is, unions are a parasite-- industries that are not unionized pay their employees better.