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The Courts Government News

Sexual Harassment for Consultants? 159

Posted by Cliff from the it's-all-about-power dept.
Medcoop asks: "My friend is working as a consultant for a government institution, and is having a difficult time with his direct supervisor (the person who hired and manages him). She has been repeatedly asking him out (even though she is several decades his senior), and keeps referencing her preference for younger men. This isn't exactly sexual harassment, however, as he hasn't said 'No, and please stop asking.' The problem is that if he says the above, there won't be any more work for him there. He's not really fired, but just not asked back for other work. Where does this situation fall with respect to the law? Does anyone have any advice for him?"
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Sexual Harassment for Consultants? More

Sexual Harassment for Consultants?

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  • If he says no and is punished (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 14, 2003 @08:25PM (#6438856)
    Then that is sexual harassment, and he can treat it as such. Have him start documenting it.

  • How about (Score:3, Funny)

    by mungeh ( 663492 ) on Monday July 14, 2003 @08:28PM (#6438871) Homepage
    Self mutilation?
    It could be painful but may stop the old lady wanting some of his fine consulting ass.

  • More slashdot legal advice... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Sancho ( 17056 ) on Monday July 14, 2003 @08:30PM (#6438876) Homepage
    I'd suggest consulting an attorney on the subject. Asking for legal advice on slashdot is somewhat foolish.

    • Advice (Score:5, Insightful)

      by fm6 ( 162816 ) on Monday July 14, 2003 @09:42PM (#6439253) Homepage Journal
      You're right about Slashdot being the wrong place to ask for legal advice. Or any kind of advice that doesn't rate as Peer Counselling for Geeks. (Though Cliff [slashdot.org] doesn't [slashdot.org] seem [slashdot.org] to [slashdot.org] agree [slashdot.org].) But the legal question is only a small part of the problem. A person in this kind of a situation needs to know more than whether they have a legal rememdy -- they also have to decide whether a legal remedy is worth pursuing. Which is an appropriate question to ask of ones peers.

      Then again, this guy seems to be assuming that he only has two choices: play the gigolo, or face losing his consulting contracts. With a little self-esteem and a little tact, one could probably let down a sexually aggressive boss without provoking a crisis. Alas, Slashdotters are not notable for self-esteem or tact. Perhaps the question should be directed to a psychologist. Or an advice columnist. Even an ettiquite expert [amazon.com] would probably give better advice!

      • Skip bathing a couple of weeks. Suspend brushing your teeth for the same period. Talk to her really close-up afterwards. Work done, next case.
        • Everybody's a fucking comedian. Rob, can we get rid of the damn "funny" mod already???!!!

    • Re:More slashdot legal advice... (Score:5, Funny)

      by Joe Tie. ( 567096 ) on Tuesday July 15, 2003 @01:42AM (#6440245)
      Asking for legal advice on slashdot is somewhat foolish.

      He's asking for a combination of legal and sex advice on slashdot. The only way to one up that is to ask us for spelling tips as well.

  • it's tough shit for him, since (Score:3, Insightful)

    by dh003i ( 203189 ) <`dh003i' `at' `gmail.com'> on Monday July 14, 2003 @08:38PM (#6438932) Homepage Journal
    he's not really an employee, and thus can't be fired. No-one has the right to be contracted as an outside consultant, and having several deals as an outside consultant does not in any way constitute any kind of obligation.

    The choice is simple for him. He can simply ask her to stop asking him out, and say no. If she continues, it's sexual harassment. If not, it isn't. If she stops using him as an outside consultant, then it's tough shit for him, for the above-reasons.

    Consider this scenario. I regularly go to a hair-stylist who's a attractive woman, and regularly ask her out, and make comments about how pretty she is. She's more than welcomed to ask me to stop, and then if I continue, it's sexual harassment. But if I stop going there, then she has no legal grounds on which to complain.

    Indeed, there is a good argument to be made that I was just doing whatever I could to obey the law, since -- being around her -- I just couldn't resist asking her that.

    • Are you sure? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by GuyMannDude ( 574364 )

      Consider this scenario. I regularly go to a hair-stylist who's a attractive woman, and regularly ask her out, and make comments about how pretty she is. She's more than welcomed to ask me to stop, and then if I continue, it's sexual harassment.

      I'm not sure she could claim sexual harassment since you don't have any power over her. It's not like you're her boss. It may not be particularly nice of you but I don't think she would have any legal recourse against you. Most likely she would simply refuse to

      • Re:Are you sure? (Score:2, Insightful)

        by GigsVT ( 208848 )
        Well that's the whole point.

        As a contractor, your "boss" is not your boss at all, they are your customer. If they decide to stop using your services, for whatever reason, that's tough shit, as the parent pointed out.
        • Ok, that was a little bit smug...but, hey, I'm entitled to be a jerk once in a while...ok, maybe once or twice a week...ok, maybe once or twice a day...ok, maybe all the time
    • Your hair stylist may file a restraining order against you one of these days. Here in California, you don't get a trial or anything - the loss of 2nd amendment rights (that goes with a temporary R.O.) is usually automatic, and judges love to err on the side of "safety."
      • (1) Until she tells me to stop doing it, it's no longer sexual harassment.

        (2) In regards to CA and restraining orders, the second amendment doesn't give you the right to constantly hang around someone.

        (3) My entire point was that if I refused to come back to her salon as a customer, she would have no cause -- what-so-ever -- for complaint against me. This is the same situation as it would be if this woman didn't ask the consultant back after he asks her not to ask him out anymore.

        • (2) In regards to CA and restraining orders, the second amendment doesn't give you the right to constantly hang around someone.

          I think the parent poster is saying that, in California, if a restraining order is issued against you, you're no longer allowed to have guns. This sounds far too unconstitutional to be true, but California's always been weird.

          • Ah, I see. That does indeed seem unconstitutional. It's fine for someone to get a restraining order against you without you having any chance to defend yourself, as that is not a criminal punishment, nor a violation of your rights. But, in regards to no longer being allowed to have guns, that is unconstitutional.
      • I wish California would secede from the union. The lack of understanding of the second amendment in that state makes it very dangerous for the rest of the country. Maybe the state will just fall into the ocean soon.

        • The lack of understanding of the 2nd Amendment is hardly limited to California - thanks to decades of government "education" it is pretty much universal.

          If you want to see what the rest of the country will be like soon, you need to watch two places - California, and your friendly neighborhood inner city. These are the places where limitless, lawless "government" has grown the fastest, and while there is resistance in both places, neither community by and large has either the means nor the will to resist

  • Seems fairly straightforward (Score:4, Insightful)

    by GuyMannDude ( 574364 ) on Monday July 14, 2003 @08:38PM (#6438933) Journal

    This isn't exactly sexual harassment, however, as he hasn't said 'No, and please stop asking.'

    So why hasn't he told her to stop? Maybe she doesn't realize how much it's bothering him. Hell, from your description it's not even clear to me how much it's bothing him. If it's not that big of a bother to him, then he should just bare it. If it is creeping him out, then he needs to tell her that and not be a coward about not getting asked back for more work. Is this his only client or something? Part of the joy of being a consultant is that you can pick and choose your employer. He doesn't have to put up with that shit unless he wants to.

    I don't understand why you are asking us about it. It seems like his course of action should be clear *if* he is clear about his own feelings on the matter. Either it's a big deal to him or it isn't.

    GMD

  • Jesus, your not a victem, tell her no, and if THEN you find you have no work, go to court and try to prove she fired you because you wouldnt go out with her.

    Everyone seems to this this is such a problem, just tell her no! :P
    • He's a consultant. Big difference. Simply having gone to a consultant several times in no way obligates an individual to continually go to that consultant. She could refuse to have him back as a consultant because she didn't like a tick in his gesture, or for any other reason she could come up with.

  • My suggestions (Score:4, Interesting)

    by BladeMelbourne ( 518866 ) on Monday July 14, 2003 @08:42PM (#6438957)
    He could pretend to be gay - subtle at first and then more 'out' about it.

    He could also meet a girlfriend/fiancé for lunch, and plan it so that his boss sees his partner. This partner could be just a friend - the boss is not likely to know the difference.

    Or he could combine both of the above and meet a pretend boyfriend for lunch?

    Definately document the harassment - to use just in case the situation gets worse.

  • Tell him.. (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Ruis ( 21357 )
    Tell him to just go out with her. geez. He's got a chance to move up in the world by sleeping with the boss and he's passing it up?
    • More like go out with her and bore her to death. Talk about your cats and how much you love all 20 of them. Go into great detail about a favorite hobby such as witch craft. Generally freak her out.

  • Sexual Harassment (Score:3, Interesting)

    by dTaylorSingletary ( 448723 ) on Monday July 14, 2003 @09:05PM (#6439056) Homepage
    This isn't exactly sexual harassment

    Wrong. It can be interpreted as sexual harassment regardless of your reluctance to state it as a problem. However, nothing can be done unless you alert the issue to the next person in line of management. When a manager is the source of sexual harassment, the liability on your employer is higher. If this woman has "hire and fire" abilities, she is potentially costing your company a great amount of money, and should be alerted to begin with. Second, while you may not want to sue the person, filing a BOLI (or equivalent to your jurisdiction) complaint against your employer, who cannot legally retaliate against you in any way.)

    Your status as a consultant (as ,I a person who merely works in an employment defense law firm and reads dozens of pleadings of this nature a day, can advise you) may complicate matters, but shouldn't entirely limit your employer's liability.

    Examine any handbook that you received. You can easily construe your work environment as being hostile because of this as well, claim (dis)stress damages, and onward.

    But... I have a feeling that you just want this to stop, and talking to a higher level supervisor should solve your problem quickly. Be sure to exhaust any administrative remedies as you can muster. There are always better ways to solve a problem than litigation.

    I am not a lawyer, etc. etc.

    • The whole point here is the he is not an employee, she is not his boss. He is a consultant, and she is his customer. search up for "hair" for a perfect analogy.
      • Regardless, the question was asked and posted to slashdot therefore, it is a question that can be modified into its abstract parts and applied to the whole or segments of its intended audience. Someone may find any tangent discussion on this topic helpful.

        And I cautionally used e-prime liberally in my analysis so as not to imply that it was applicable beyond a leap of variables.
      • His client is the government though. Here in California the SLG that I work for has made if very clear that sexual harassment can be committed by or to anyone. A consultant, political position, or even someone who comes up to a public counter can be a victim or a perpetrator.

        On that note, my opinion is that you stand to loose your shirt (no pun intended) on this if you try to bring it up. The popular vision is (equal rights, women are equal to men, etc not withstanding) that no woman could every really har
    • Wrong. You have to ask someone to stop doing something, and they have to continue doing it, for it to be sexual harassment. Obviously, some things if done once are illegal anyways, but they are sorts of sexual assault, not words.

      A consultant is not an employee. If anything, a consultant's client -- in this case, the woman -- is the customer, and can terminate the ongoing consultating at any time for any reason. She could stop going to him as a consultant, and start going to someone else, explicitly saying


      • That doesn't stop the guy from rocking the boat just in concern for the company itself. Regardless of this individual's situation, the company has a potential problem with a management employee who needs to be regulated in some way through training and or punishment.

      • Re:Sexual Harassment (Score:3, Informative)

        by Chelloveck ( 14643 )

        Wrong. You have to ask someone to stop doing something, and they have to continue doing it, for it to be sexual harassment.

        Wrong wrong. The offender doesn't even have to know he (or she) has offended anyone. The way harrassment (sexual and other) policies are written at many companies, "harrassment" is defined as any behavior that someone else thinks is harrassing. Regardless of how innocently it was intended, regardless of whether the offender was asked to stop.

        ObWarStory: I was fired from my last [zebra.com]

        • When HR questioned me about it I was shocked. It was a humorous article, which I presented for its humor value. I honestly never meant to offend. I offered to do whatever was necessary to put things right; public apology, private apology, whatever. No good. I was summarily canned. Not only didn't I get a chance to apologize, I never even found out who I offended. Just, "pack your things and get out." (And, after seeking real legal counsel, I found I had no grounds for action against the company.)

          It's too

          • It's too late and much water under the bridge, but I surmised that 1) your company has an all-inclusive "for cause" clause and 2) things were precarious enough with your employment (whether your fault or not) to get you canned.

            Correct on #1 (Illinois is an 'at-will' state, which pretty much means an employer can fire you for anything not explicitly forbidden by anti-discrimination laws), incorrect on #2. I'd had glowing annual reviews and had been largely responsible for a product that made the company

    • Oh please.

      This is exactly the kind of nonsense that's making the workplace truly hostile. The sad thing is that the lawmakers buy this bullshit.

      What the poster described isn't sexual harrassment. It's called making a few passes. So the old lady thinks he's hot. He should be flattered, and either take her up on her offer, or else say 'thanks but no.' Instead he leads her on and talks behind her back about 'sexual harrassment'.

  • 1. Ball grandma
    2. ??????
    3. Profit!

  • Go to HR (Score:5, Informative)

    by wowbagger ( 69688 ) * on Monday July 14, 2003 @09:30PM (#6439194) Homepage Journal
    Your friend should go the the Human Resources department, and file a complaint.

    Then, if your friend's contract is terminated without cause, he can bring a whistle-blower suit.

    But I doubt that will happen. I think this is a more likely scenario:

    Your Friend <knocks on doorframe>
    HR person: Hello, come in, how may I help you?
    YF: Well, it's like this - I'm a contractor, and my supervisor from this shop keeps hitting on me. I've asked her to stop, but she keeps doing it. Here's a copy of the last letter I wrote to her about it....
    HR <snatching letter>: Let me see that. Hmmmmm, ummmhmmm. OK. Do you wish to file a formal complaint?
    YF: I'd like this to stop. If it stops without a complaint, that would be best, but....
    HR: OK. Excuse me. I must go kill somebody now. <Exits office at warp speed.>

    Believe me - IF your friend documents the request to stop the harrasment, they will be VERY careful about any action against him - even if they WERE going to terminate his contract for some other reason, they will make sure to have all their ducks, their friend's ducks, and any ducks that happen to be passing by on migration in a row before they do.

    Whistle-blower suits cause a lot a pain and suffering to organizations....
    • I had something similar to this happen to me but it wasn't sexual. It was related to my not going along with specific policies at a client's whim. I basically walked off a project because a customer-of-a-customer was using dirty up-sales techniques to fool customers into thinking they were getting something they weren't.

      Salesmonkey: "Yes sir, your clients can order product online, even without a secure ssl or https line... we can just have their credit card numbers emailed to you with this link I like to

      • I would say, from your message, that your mistake was not going to your customer FIRST, before walking. If you did so and I was mislead by your message, then I apologize.

        However, there is a difference between quitting over shady business practices and sexual harrasement - sad but true. The former will get YOU blacklisted, the latter will get the offending company blacklisted, witch-hunted, and perp-walked on an ambush-journalism show.

        Yes, it is sad that our society does not encourage personal responsiblit

        • I would say, from your message, that your mistake was not going to your customer FIRST, before walking.

          I went to the customer, the customer-of-the-customer, and the customer of the customer's customer. (three levels of customers).

          The second level was sticking it to the third and the first level stuck it to me for walking. I went to all of them and explained my situation. The little guy was mad because he was lied to, and I was supposed to design all the stuff he wanted (and was promised by the second

          • Plus there was the issue of the SSL connection; it's just damn illegal to sell credit card transactions without a secure pipe.

            What law is this?

  • Useful Slashdot Advice (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I think he should recompile his kernel.

    Hey, ask Slashdot a question, get a Slashdot answer.

    In other news, Which Law Blog Can Advise Me About SDRAM? [dashslot.org]
  • maybe you should hint that she read slashdot sometime... like right now.
  • ....teeth...and doesn't smell like week old tuna.........

    (1) Get a 15" dildo
    (2) Get her nekkid in a dark room
    (3) Insert dildo all the way into her ass
    (4) She won't come back for more
    (5) Repeat 1-4
    (6) Profit.... (ooops...wrong thread!)

    -psy

  • Two choices, Legal and Practical (Score:4, Insightful)

    by spRed ( 28066 ) on Monday July 14, 2003 @09:40PM (#6439243)
    There are two ways you can approach this problem, legal and practical.

    Legally you have been wronged (although to prove it you have to have a record, and have to rebuff her in obvious ways). Practically, you have a dilema. I think the OP was asking about practical solutions.

    Practically, don't lead her on and don't spit in her face. Either is disingenuous. Are you doing the job? do your job. Are you looking to cash in on a lawsuit? sue.

    Discrimination/harassment/people don't love you is a fact of life. People that can't hide irrational prejudice lose in the long run. On the margins, shit happens. Deal.

  • My Slashdot Legal Advice (Score:4, Funny)

    by Jerf ( 17166 ) on Monday July 14, 2003 @09:45PM (#6439260) Journal
    My Slashdot Legal Advice (TM, Copyright 2003 Slashdot Inc., Patent Pending in Four Countries) is to go ahead and reciprocate on her advances, tell her you're going to send her a photo of you nekkid, and forward her a picture of our dear beloved friend [goatse.cx].

    For those of you who do not have the domain warnings turned on, that link should be followed by a [goatse.cx]. For those of you new to Slashdot you can directly translate that to Don't Click On That Link (TM, Copyright 2004 Slashdot Inc., "No Click Does Nothing" technology Patent # 4,234,123).

    Also note for once, I'm not checking the link, so that may not be quite right. (Is it supposed to end in .cs?)

    If that doesn't turn her off of you, nothing will.

    This has been Slashdot Legal Advice (TM, Copyright 2003 Slashdot Inc., Patent Pending now in Five Countries). Remember, whatever you do, when you need legal advice do not seek out a professional attorney when you can have the benefit and wisdom of hundreds of random yahoos who could not care less about your plight.

  • Just say yes (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Blaze74 ( 523522 )
    I guess the easy way to get her to stop asking would be to just say yes.

  • How about this for a plan? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by WIAKywbfatw ( 307557 ) on Monday July 14, 2003 @10:00PM (#6439355) Journal
    Tell your friend to go out on a date with the woman. On that date, have him drop some pretty major hints that he's one of the following:

    1. closet gay, shy about coming out;
    2. still recovering from a STD;
    3. unable to sustain an erection because of a personal trauma;
    4. maintaining a long distance relationship with a girl he's never met but hopes to meet up with in a year a so;
    5. currently celibate because of a bad breakup;
    6. saving himself for when he's married.

    Any of these give him plenty of reasons not to take up her advances yet give her slim hope for the future. With any luck, that slim hope will translate into getting your friend more work beyond his current contract but lessening the attention that he'll get from his supervisor.

    Remember, the trick is getting her to back off from being all over him but without making her feel totally rejected. If she thinks the door might be open for her just a crack, or that it might open for her down the line, then she'll have a reason to keep him around.

    At the very least, your friend should try to avoid a confrontation at any cost. If he doesn't "break her heart" then she might keep him on as eye candy. If he does, then she might just bitch about him "not being a team player" or "having an attitude" to other potential employers.
    • i would recommend using all 6 solutions at once. :)

      that'll definately put her off, unless she's into really scary people (in which case, watch out /. as she pays attention to his browsing habits and starts flirting with random people on here :)

  • You expect anyone here to give advice without pictures?

    MILF?

  • First off, IANAL (Score:2, Insightful)

    by djmitche ( 536135 )

    If this was a normal employment relationship, there would be two issues: first, sexual harassment in the workplace is illegal; second, firing someone for complaining about sexual harassment is also illegal.

    Unfortunately, I believe one of the downsides to working as a consultant is that terminaing a contract for complaining about sexual harassment is not a problem (unless the termination is against the provisions of the contract, but it sounds like, in this case, the contract simply wouldn't be renewed).

  • Tell him to stop bathing and having his hair cut for at least 5 monthes. Teeth brushing should also be forbidden. And when nature calls, there's no real need for a restoom. That's what pants are for. Clothes can be changed once a month.

    Now let's see if she'll STILL ask your friend out.
  • "I'm not gay, but i'll learn"

  • BOFH her. Hide a tape recorder, get her on tape making advances. Then call her voicemail from an untraceable phone number and leave a copy of the conversation on her voice mail. While you're at it, download one of the kiddie pr0n viruses to her machine and create a scheduled task that will change her homepage to the kiddie pr0n and simultaneously email the link to her boss and her boss's boss with "hey, Bill, look at this great website I found" (but only if neither's name is really Bill, or your friend's

  • Does anyone have any advice for him?"

    In this market? I know a number of guys out of work that'd take his spot.

  • The most obvious question... (Score:5, Funny)

    by km790816 ( 78280 ) <wqhq3gx02 AT sneakemail DOT com> on Tuesday July 15, 2003 @12:12AM (#6439906)
    I can't believe no one has posted this yet:

    Is she hot?

    Tell him to post a picture if he expects to get a good response from this crowd.

    I can see all of the little geeks at home: "Ooo, I can get hired to code and older women will hit on me!"
  • ...your friend has the physical superiority (doesn't he?) He should never feel threatened, and if he does, he needs to spend a few months in the gym.

    Keep putting it off, and tell him to never get himself into a situation where she's alone with him in a locked room. Eventually she'll get frustrated, and your friend can try to keep the relationship platonic, because after that point it'll come to a crux and she'll decide whether or not to make good on her implied threat. If he's still working there, he can s

  • Tape her in the act (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    My rule of thumb is to forgive the first transgression and give everyone one chance to redeem themselves; then if that fails, no holds barred, go for blood.

    Given that there is no expectation of privacy in the corporate environment, you're probably home-free to secretly tape record conversations from a privacy and eavesdropping standpoint. If a manager can spy on employees then someone can do the same to the managers, especially since sexual harassment is very much the company's business.

    Taped proof m

  • ...about the rash. Problem solved.

    If you don't have a rash, go get one. Problem solved.

    Next!

  • Slashdot or am I at the wrong place again..??

    shit, i should really quit this shit....
  • "No, but thanks for asking." And smile.
  • ... all I can say is have him start talking about his girlfriend whenever possible. Even if he doesn't have one, have him talk around her like he does.

    While the woman who was harassing me wasn't my direct supervisor, I did have to work with her on a daily basis. I never bothered pressing charges, despite the fact that she harassed me in front of several of her employees on several occasions. Why not? Too embarassing.

    I was 19, she was 41. Had she been hot, it would've been a different story.
  • If it is ".. FOR Consultants", we should expect either discussion on how to create the hostile enviroment for your consultants or discussion of book or article (.. in three easy lessons!")
  • I've testified in two sexual harrassment cases at various jobs, one bogus and the other sadly and horribly valid. The simple legal rule of thumb is this: if her behavior creates a hostile working environment, it is sexual harrassment. It doesn't matter if he's a full-time employee, a consultant, a vendor, or a customer. Unwelcome advances that make it hard to work legally constitute sexual harrassment.

    That said, if you plan on suing (and it is possible for a man to do so), be prepared for a long and co

  • eferencing her preference for younger men. This isn't exactly sexual harassment, however, as he hasn't said 'No, and please stop asking.'

    Let me get this straight: she asked him out, he didn't say yes, he didn't say no either. So how exactly is she supposed to interpret this? For all she knows, he's playing hard to get, and his vague answers are attempts at flirting. There is no point in getting all passive-aggressive about this - your friend is quite frankly an idiot if he thinks that he can string someo
    • > Let me get this straight: she asked him out, he didn't say yes, he didn't say no either. So how exactly is she supposed to interpret this? For all she knows, he's playing hard to get, and his vague answers are attempts at flirting.

      *applause*.

      They're called gonads. He needs to grow a pair and say "Look, I get the impression that you're making advances on me. If you weren't, hey, sorry for misinterpreting you, and please disregard the rest of this speech, which will make no sense to you. If

  • Indicating the he has an STD, preferably something not easily transmitted by just casual contact. Leave the results in such a way that the boss, but hopefully not others, can read it.
    That or just get some of the "cream" etc to cure said condition and leave it on the desk...

    That'll probably back her off a bit.
  • You mentioned this happened in a "goverment institution". If this was the military (especially Army), then your boss (as a civilian worker) is required to have annual EO/EEO training [army.mil], including prevention of sexual harassment.

    A short FAQ [army.mil] is online to spell out how to follow through on sexual harassment situation. In the Military, if your boss is the one who is sexually harassing you, then you can/must go to her boss, who is required to look into the matter, or else be subject to the same penalties has if s
  • I tried to file a complaint with the EEOC; they told me they couldn't do anything for me because they only have jurisdiction over employees.
  • Just hit it and forget it.
  • ...he works part time on the MILF Hunter web site, and would she like to pose?

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