Ph.Ds in IT - Good or Bad for a Career? 781
LordNimon asks: "I'm thinking about getting my Ph.D. (I currently have a Master's) in computer engineering. I've heard all sorts of stories about Ph.Ds being less likely to find a job than their less-educated counterparts, but not a lot of credible evidence. So, I was hoping to hear from Slashdot readers on their experience. Do you think getting a Ph.D. in CompSci or CompEng will improve or worsen my career outlook in the industry? Has anyone witnessed someone being turned down for a job because he had too much education? If you're a hiring manager, what is your opinion on someone who has a Ph.D. and is otherwise already qualified for the position?"
well.. (Score:3, Informative)
Depends on your experience (Score:5, Informative)
Atlantic I was on. When I was in the UK (where I got the qualification) I
definitely met resistance from some companies who asked me bluntly why I had
bothered to get a PhD if I wasn't going to do research, and seemed suspicious
that I might be too "academic" for their jobs. Only one company, ICI, was
positive about my doctorate stating that I would start at a higher pay grade
because of it.
In the US I've found that the PhD was a plus, people respect that you did
the work to get it and generally are interested by the topic I choose (security).
I have not had a negative reaction here.
In my current position where I hire people the more education the better, as
long as the person has the skills required for the job. So I have had to choose
between a person with a PhD who had just learnt C++ and a person with a Master's
who's spent 2 years coding in C++ then the Master's wins. What's going to be
important with your PhD is to demostrate that you have practical experience along
with the studies (could be through a summer job, for example).
John.
ComEng fo ?IT? (Score:1, Informative)
Re:well.. (Score:5, Informative)
Berkeley says it's all good... (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/99lega cy/9-2-1999.html [berkeley.edu]
When I hire... (Score:2, Informative)
Salary Requirement (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Depends on your experience (Score:3, Informative)
Of course, with the economy, it might be a good time to invest in your education. Either way, your going to be underpaid and/or overqualified. I know a few PhDs flipping hamburgers at McDonalds until they can get a "real job".
Anyways, the effect of the PhD or even Masters becomes less important with time, as your workplace experience increases. The lasting part of the degree is more of a sense of accomplishment and having enjoyed the process of obtaining such a degree.
I feel that way about my BS. It was nice to get my first job or so, but after that, the employers really didn't care as long as I had *some* type of degree. I never had anyone ask what grades I made in my CS course work. :-)
When interviewing prospective employees... (Score:2, Informative)
Do you want to teach or do research? (Score:2, Informative)
One thing that people often don't know is that PhD programs are more about thoroughness, communication, creativity, and endurance than about ability to hack. I'm in the CS PhD program at Berkeley, and I spend more time creating slides, writing papers, reviewing papers, talking to colleagues, and thinking up new ideas than I do programming. I enjoy it a lot, but depending on your goals, this may or may not be a good thing.
The endurance part is something that few people mention. Are you willing to devote the next 4-5 years of your life to research? Is there something that will get you up every day in the morning so that you can finish?
Check out the web pages of schools you'd like to apply to, and find projects and professors there that seem interesting to you. Also, many graduate programs are open to visitors and prospective graduate students. If you have the opportunity, visit those schools and see what the people and the research is like.
Depends (Score:2, Informative)
That said, those with a Ph.D. generally have a training in a technical (generally engineering or math) field. Our experience has shown it is generally easier to teach someone programming skills than it is to teach them the highly complex numerics and domain knowledge required in what we do.
Overqualified workers (Score:3, Informative)
We were worried that such an overqualified candidate would soon become dissatisfied with the job, or would require a higher pay than we could afford for the position. It was really not a good fit for the job.
I realize that in this economy, a lot of really educated people are in need of work. My suggestion to those is that they do not advertise their higher degrees with jobs that they are overqualified for. If you are satisfied with menial work, then it doesn't matter if you have an advanced degree - don't show it off.
If you are getting your Ph.D. as a career move, make sure your job description matches your education, otherwise it was a waste of time. You don't need a Ph.D. to be a scriptwriter.
Not cost-effective (Score:3, Informative)
With my strong programming experience I did OK, and found a job that paid $75,000 (this was in 1995). However, there was this guy who was in grad school with me. He left after an MS since he couldn't get in to the PhD program... he'd been working for the five additional years I was in school, making good money and getting raises, so in '95 he was also making the same amount of money. And he had lots of vested stock options that were actually worth money.
The only reason to get a PhD is because you think it would be cool and fun and you don't really want to do anything else. That was all true for me, and I had a blast doing it and would definitely do it again, and recommend it to others. But don't do it for money: if you think you'll be more succesful financially as a result, you're deluded. It will be a waste of time.
A peg can be too big to fit into a hole (Score:3, Informative)
1. Unless you are obsessively, genuinely interested in the topic, the four+ years of research will drive you insane. You can't just "not care" about the topic.
2. During those years you will be doing little programming, getting little practical experience, and making welfare wages. Meanwhile your undergrad friends are getting their 401ks pumped up while they learn something useful. If you actually do post-doc work you will find that your undergrad friends have homes and second cars while you will be looking forward to your first real paycheck. Regardless of wage you will likely never catch up to them.
3. Some firms do not like to hire Ph.ds. They are chronic mental masturbators. Sorry for the label but in general it fits. Most programming is not about big theory but little bugs.
4. Getting back to (2), getting a Ph.d really means putting your life on hold. Marriage, kids, buying a house, going on vacations...these are not in your immediate future if you go to grad school. Not just financially are they unattainable, but you will not have the time to focus.
5. Most importantly: The market is already saturated with doctorates.. They are everywhere. They are not rare.
.
Academia vs. "Real World" (Score:3, Informative)
If you're on staff in academia, you're golden with a PhD. Work experience absolutely doesn't matter. A PhD (and interestingly enough, in ANY degree) can get you pretty damn far. Doesn't matter what you've done in the past, or how experienced you are, it's those three little letters that make all the difference. If you don't have them, you can pretty much write off any upward mobility, and you'll be treated like cattle.
I've seen people with PhDs completely outside the computer field get put into management positions over computer folks.... Believe me, the results are frightening when that PhD tries to tell people how to do their jobs.
In the "real world", it's the opposite. If you have great work experience, and can speak intelligently about what sorts of projects you've worked on, you've got the job. Very few people pay any attention to degrees once you're hired... all that matters is that you can do a good job. In fact, if you try and sling around the fact you've got a PhD, it'll probably just make people think that YOU think you're better than they are.
A lot of people coming through with degrees DO seem to have this opinion, and they really show it during interviews. Those that do that sort of thing don't get called back.
Re:I've waited seven years for my PhD to matter (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Degrees? (Score:2, Informative)
News Flash: this is the proper way to interview ANY techie.
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Start zeroing in on what they didin't really know and start asking in-depth questions and getting them completely trapped in their lies. Apparantly a simple "I don't know" would have been the correct answer and some of them probably would have gotten the job if they had sucked it up and said that. I was told some of them ended up leaving in tears as it was not-so-pleasantly revealed to them that they didn't know as much as they thought they did...
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Re:dated? (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Go for it (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Degrees? (Score:3, Informative)
After 3 years I make $87k/yr salary but have made over $100k/yr. I have 2 friends with identical degrees doing design work, one has underperformed that level (presently $85k/yr rare bonuses) but has infinite job security, one has overperformed ($90k/yr, not incl. bonus of over $35k one year) but has since lost her job in a merger. This is reasonably consistent with what you'd expect.
I have a friend at MIT and I have heard that graduates with an MS in EE from that school often start with $100k/yr salaries (I do not know these people). I found that hard to believe, and now that I work with graduates from those schools I find it *really* hard to believe, but perhaps it is true. I have seen enough bad managers here that it wouldn't surprise me. I have no reliable data on actual salaries for people graduating from these schools.
(Aside: I do believe people should be forthright on this subject, it's not a measure of your manhood it's a tool to push for what you deserve as an educated laborer. As one poster noted individuals from brand name schools like Stanford/MIT often get very high starting salaries. There is no doubt after having worked here 3 years that this phenomena is unwarranted in 90% of all cases, but it is a sign of what companies are willing to pay for what they view as talented engineers.)
Money isn't everything in a job, but most of the time it's the reason we pry ourselves out of bed on mornings we'd really rather sleep in.
A topic near and dear... (Score:2, Informative)
Maybe I'm atypical, but I have NO degree, yet I've been making a six-figure income in the software development arena for nearly a decade now, with no signs of a ceiling to my earnings.
My career continues to be in pure engineering, so I get the benefits of an executive salary without the soul-numbing move to management that seems to be inevitable for so many.
Bear in mind that I'm only in my mid-30s, and have NOT been working as a consultant, but as a full-time salaried employee, with all of the stability and benefits that are implied. I have worked a minimum of three years at every company (with the exception of a summer job doing graphics tools in '84), so I must not COMPLETELY suck at my job.
BTW, folks, for those of you who haven't worked in the field yet, there's this strange magical process that happens naturally over time. Maybe you've heard of it. It's called "experience". This magical process has allowed me to develop a deep understanding of software development processes. What a concept! Using this "experience" thing, I have even managed to develop patented software technologies for major technology corporations.
There was only ONE company in my entire history of interviews that cared about my lack of degree. In fact they were quite offended by my asking salary, despite my supporting prior salary history. The main interviewer took great pains to tell me about all of the PhD's on-staff that were working for half of my asking price. It didn't matter, though, because by that point, I could tell that I had NO interest in working with a group of PhD snobs, no matter WHAT the salary.
As an addendum, and before the flames start, I will say that I have had the pleasure of working with many talented and courteous PhD's, so don't take my experience with one company as a general slam against those with doctorates.
Depends, depends... (Score:2, Informative)
I have another friend who did a PhD in video data compression (some years ago) and was frequently offered work in related areas.
I have a bachelor's degree in computer systems engineering. I count much of the (diverse) content of that course as vitally important in my career, though I am naturally a "specialist-generalist" - my position requires I know a medium amount about a lot.
I didn't finish my degree until in my second full-time job. Being "nearly" finished helped me get one job. In both jobs, my abilities and attitude did a lot more for my progression and ability to stay employed during cutbacks.
If you have good skills and background, I'd say "direct experience" then counts more than the letters after your name, unless the letters were earned in a relevant area.
I'd say the effect is more pronounced in IT than other areas.
The big merchant banks like it. (Score:3, Informative)
Alternatively you could use a PhD to get a position as a trainee BA with one of the big consultancy firms. I can't vouch for how they are right now, but Accenture - formerly Andersen Consulting - certainly used to only consider candidates with very good academic qualifications.
You need to realize that a PhD isn't going to mean you can autmatically leapfrog into a senior role and 100K starting salary. What it *will* do is enable you to compete for entry into "fast track" career paths with the very best firms. Once in, opportunities abound. If, say, you joined a top merchant bank, and if you are ambitious and talented and applied to move over to the business side in the Front Office, you could be earning 250K + 500K bonus before you reach 30. If you stayed on the IT side you'd make slightly less money but you would still be assured of access to the most challenging projects using the most up to date technologies.
PhD may mean you get things done (Score:3, Informative)
In other words, you try to get a PhD, and the department does pretty much everything it can to prevent you from doing so. If you manage to finish, you have shown you can get things done despite obstacles, and thus join the club.
IIRC, only about 50% of those who start a PhD program actually finish and about 90% of the non-finishers completed the course work but never finished their thesis. So his view has a certain validity in affect, if not in policy. It seems to me it's a good view to have for oneself, taking into account also the others' statements here about your interest etc.
Re:Degrees? (Score:3, Informative)
you have people that will answer "lots", or simply give you some ungodly number off the top of their head. you dont want these people.
you then have people who will say "i dont know" or "i dont know, but I can find out". you can then tell them just to estimate for you. make them understand that you know they dont know, but want them to try anyways. these people are average.
then there are people who will make quick assumptions to simplify the problem, and then quickly calculate an educated guess. for example, you could assume no compressibility, and assume that each cotton ball takes about 1 cubic inch. now quickly calculate the number of cubic inches inside the cabin and voila. these are the people you want in your meetings all the time.