Are DATs Still Worth Buying? 71
Anonymous Coward asks: "DATs are currently the standard for recording legal concerts like Phish and the Grateful Dead. However, they're absurdly expensive even on eBay and are no longer being developed actively by any companies. Are there any alternatives that are more cost effective than DATs (Sony has a D100 out for 700 USD) and maintain the same quality? (DATs can sample up to 48kHz)."
Hmmm... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Hmmm... (Score:1)
Re:Hmmm... (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Hmmm... (Score:1)
Well, Sony does make a multi-track Minidisc recorder, or at least used to (check out this page [minidisc.org]).
Also, when I was working at a [student] radio station, we used to use minidiscs for all of our ads and promos. Of course we didn't need pro audio quality for broadcast, but they had some pretty nice machines back then, and this was in 1994 or 1995.
Re:Hmmm... (Score:2)
You young whippersnappers probably don't even know how to cue up an LP....
Remainder of my
Re:Hmmm... (Score:2)
Incidentally, we did all our promos and donuts on carts and reel to reel.
Re:Hmmm... (Score:3, Informative)
I would imagine a hard disk based device would be better suited to the job, DAT tapes can get a bit knackered causing clicks.
Re:Hmmm... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Hmmm... (Score:1)
Totally agree with you on the 'flips'. Anytime you have to open up a deck at a show, it's a bad, bad idea. I've had tape jams from trying to flip too fast, dropped a tape on the beer soaked floor, etc.. etc.. See above 'not competent' comment.
Re:Hmmm... (Score:1)
I find it quite comical that my soundcard MUST play 48KHz on ALSA to not be almost all static (Curse the VIA 8233)
Re:Hmmm... (Score:1)
Re:Hmmm... (Score:2)
MD was better in some ways. but its not bit-accurate, and really, for enthusiasts (regardless of the material), they want to know they got the whole show and in the highest quality. MD uses lossy compression, so even the initial capture isn't bit accurate, so to speak.
what tapers want and need is a bit accurate, non-lossy compression, long-length recording
Re:Hmmm... (Score:1)
hmmm (Score:3, Funny)
Re:hmmm (Score:1)
Re:hmmm (Score:1)
Re:hmmm (Score:1)
Re:hmmm (Score:1)
Nomad Jukebox3 (Score:5, Informative)
I'll have to see if it can record at 48KHz, since I've only used it at 44.1KHz (CD sample rates). Since it stores at least 20G of data, uses USB or firewire, optical/line-in, dual replaceable batteries, etc., it is great for recording shows.
Minidiscs are certainly cheaper, but they can only hold a little more than an hour and if they screw up during the 'finalization step', the recording is toast - I don't have one but I know of some people who have had this happen. Also for the non-compressed audio purists, it's a no-no since it employs a lossy data compression scheme to store the music on the disc.
Re:Nomad Jukebox3 (Score:1)
I checked and for WAV recoding the sample rates are 11.025KHz, 22.05KHz, 44.1KHz, and 48.0KHz. For recording as MP3, the bit rates range from 64Kbps to 320Kbps. It also has an adjustable gain setting(+/- 12db). The product page for it is here [creative.com]
Re:Nomad Jukebox3 (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Nomad Jukebox3 (Score:1)
Re:Nomad Jukebox3 (Score:1)
I've NEVER had a problem with mine and the other tapers that I know that have a NJB3, love them. The only one that had problems was an old-school DAT-head who screwed up his firmware upgrade. They are superior to the other widely used option: MiniDisc.
I have no idea who this Lutch guy is, but IMHO, he's full of it.
Re:Nomad Jukebox3 (Score:1)
Re:Nomad Jukebox3 (Score:1)
Sorry. I still say he's full of it. Sure, the Nomad doesn't have the hardware to compensate for when the gain is set too high or when the input gets painfully loud unexpectedly. In that case, the audio will get clipped. With a little practice, that can be avoided. The device is still something that I can lock the UI, slip into a pocket, and enjoy the show. I don't want to bring damn near as much shit as the band does to a show, or worry about some drunk accidentally spill their beer on a laptop.
Audio
Re:Nomad Jukebox3 (Score:1)
Re:Nomad Jukebox3 (Score:2, Informative)
As, I expected, the 'dropped samples bit-for-bit perfect' issue was all about the initial crappy firmware. In this message [yahoo.com], your man Jamie claims it's bit-for-bit perfect and makes DAT obsolete. But a few days later, the problems crop back up again. All of which is very odd and runs counter to my experience and that of other people I know. It seems it's a love it or hate it device.
Re:Nomad Jukebox3 (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Nomad Jukebox3 (Score:1)
And yet after all that careful equipment selection and use, you're still stuck with a Phish tape. It doesn't really seem fair, somehow.
--saint
(the chip-shouldered child of hippies.)
..recording legal concerts... (Score:1, Funny)
Harddisks (Score:5, Informative)
Another option you might consider is using a notebook computer. M-Audio (midiman.com) and Digidesign (digidesign.com) both sell relatively small USB audio interfaces that are better than any laptopss built-in sound. Mark of the Unicorn (motu.com), Presonus (presonus.com) and Echo Audio (echoaudio.com) all sell bulkier-but-nice firewire and pcmcia interfaces.
If you want something that you can carry around in your pocket then minidisc is probably the way to go.
Re:Harddisks (Score:1)
Take a look at the Alesis MasterLink 9600 [alesis.com].
It's a two-channel recorder (up to 24-bit/96kHz, but also has 88.2kHz to avoid aliasing when you eventually sample down to 44.1kHz). It has a built-in hard disk. It has SPDIF input and output.
However, it lacks any high-speed digital I/O. SPDIF can only do 20-bit, and only at real time. The built-in CD burner is only 4x. The CD will burn ISO 9660 discs, though, so you can transfer off the full 24-bit 96 kHz files -- of course you'll chew through 700MB with f
Old-fashioned way (Score:3, Funny)
Then use a Nomad or similar to capture the PCM.
Laptop taping (Score:2)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/laptop-tapers/ [yahoo.com]
MD is lossy and has no decent digital outs.
The nomad is fairly popular, except for recurring reports of dropped samples. I haven't heard if it's been fixed.
awkward, but... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:awkward, but... (Score:1)
44KHz is fine for recording sine waves up to maybe 16 KHz but not any high frequency signal with harmonic content.
Re:awkward, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes. Most professional soundcards are recording at 96kHz or higher. Some of them are probably portable. Ask your local music store.
Because I'm used to higher sampling rates than 44 KHz with my Delta 66 (4 track USB card) but it's not portable by any means.
So, because you are "used to" higher sampling rates, you think you need
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
Re:awkward, but... (Score:2)
That's a good point. With the unpredictable levels at a live recording situation, it is a good thing to have a few extra bits to discard later. I'm mostly used t
Re:awkward, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:awkward, but... (Score:2)
You have to power down and power up to change bitrates or input / output; but that helps to avoid hitting the wrong switch in the middle of a session. The pre-amps are actually fairly decent, and it has optical and coax digital I/O (it does reclock, but not too badly). It doesn't do digital passthrough for a backup recorder without mods; that wo
Re:awkward, but... (Score:2)
for output, it seems to be fine (I use it for very high quality spdif playback of
Re:awkward, but... (Score:2)
(ob. disc: no, I'm not that seller nor am I connected with him.)
I've heard reports that you can stack 2 of them and get 4 channel recording, all digital. but there are sync issues that you later have to resolve (there is no common timing between a pair of cards like this. fyi).
What does that 4 khz get you? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:What does that 4 khz get you? (Score:2, Interesting)
good recordings can also be had with the MOTU and Mackie equipment pointed out above. I have used MOTU software and it is excellent.
More important then the sampling rate are the mics. mics make all the difference. the omnis from radio shack don't cut it.
Re:What does that 4 khz get you? (Score:1)
Neuros (Score:4, Informative)
The Neuros [neurosaudio.com] with firmware 1.40 (I'm using 1.40A, which is 1.40 with the fully optimized Vorbis decoder which rocks because now I can listen to my 160kbps ABR Vorbis files without clicks over MyFi [in 1.40, they skipped to the point of being unlistenable over MyFi, but only skipped in really complicated sections of songs through the headphone out]...but I'm getting a bit off topic now). Anyway, support for recording to wav files was added in firmware 1.40, with the option of recording 8kHz/8-bit, or 44.1kHz/16-bit or 48kHz/16-bit. 48kHz/16-bit is DAT quality, and the Neuros has a line-in jack so you should be able to hook up most external mics to it (at least with a preamp because it doesn't have a +20dB signal boost; of course I assume that bootleggers don't use crappy unpowered mics that have a maximum signal level of -20 dB instead of 0 dB).
The only problem with recording is that the unit's built in mic picks up a low pitched "hum," which I assume is electrical noise and the noise of the hard drive spinning when it needs to dump the recorded data from where it caches it (I'm not sure if it just caches in RAM or if it writes to the built in flash and then copies over the hd; I think it writes to flash because the hd only spun up once every ten minutes or so when I was recording for about an hour in 44.1kHz/16-bit mode).
The recording stuff has a nice level stereo level meter but no editing tools (yet), so it isn't quite as nice to use as many recorders, but Digital Innovations seems to be responsive to user requests for features (Ogg Vorbis support, scheduled radio recording, equalization, etc.) so maybe there will be a few simple editing tools added eventually (I'm thinking stuff like being able to hit one of the present buttons to make a mark and then hitting the menu button to do something like delete everything between markers or normalize it, etc.). Still, it works great for just recording stuff and then copying it to a computer for editing.
Re:Neuros (Score:2)
Re: 20 dB boost. The Neuros does have this, but I didn't notice it. If you start to record, you can hit the control stick up to add a 20dB boost, and back down to go back to 0 dB boost.
Laptop! (Score:3, Insightful)
If you're doing field recordings, though, I somehow doubt that you need such fidelity. Then, portable MD recorders are pretty attractive...
Re:Laptop! (Score:1)
What makes MD useless for this kind of activity is the inability to make a bit-for-bit copy of a MD, so you get generation loss every time you dupe the concert.
Almost puts you right back in analogue land =)
-k
Re:Laptop! (Score:2)
You mean, the first time you transfer it to CD.
Found it! (Score:5, Funny)
I've recently done the research (Score:5, Interesting)
DAT is far from the idea medium. the infamous 'buzzsaw' diginoise from dirty or misaligned heads, from using thinner 90meter tapes instead of the more standard thickness 60meter ones, etc, etc. getting bit-accurate results from DAT is not due to the spdif side of things, its purely the physics of the high rpm tape head drum and the cheapness in the manufacture of something that needs a very high level of precision. and of course you also have to do regular maintenance on the system to keep it clean and aligned.
if you can take the tape part out of DAT, it would be fine. oh, and extend it from 2 hours to something much longer (with no 'tape flips').
the project page [core-sound.com] that I found has a pda sized expansion card that allows you to import and export digital audio via the spdif protocol. if this system works (I've not personally seen it yet), it could mean that we can finally take the physical problems of the DAT drive out of the live recording loop.
suppose you have a wireless card as your 'storage' (think remote nfs) device. you can go to shows and capture a live digital feed (if you're lucky enough to know the soundboard guy) then remotely transmit the data via nfs/802.11 to your fileserver in your car, in the parking lot. running on the car battery, for reliability. sounds pretty darn cool to me..
I think the card that the core-sound device was based on is the VxPocket, which you can buy today and will work on laptops. so if you don't -need- a pda sized recorder, you can bring a laptop (and 80gig drives are currently available for 2.5" drives) and capture that spdif stream directly to local storage.
finally, it looks like there is hope for live recording enthusiasts, with hard-disk based reliability (hey, compared to tape, HD is heaven).
For what you want, try.. (Score:3, Informative)
Alex.
DATs and such.. (Score:4, Informative)
DATs are expensive? Really? I usually end up paying around $2 a pop for 60 meter DDS (120 minutes in 44.1/48khz mode, 240 minutes in 32khz) and $2.60 a pop for 90 meter DDS (180min , 360 min) tapes. Check American Digital [am-dig.com] and Masterpiece AV [daleproaudio.com]. If you go down to your CompUSA or Micro Center, sure you're going to pay $10 to $20 for a tape, but that's why you buy online.
I've looked at some of the other alternatives to portable DAT machines, including the mostly open source project Core Sound is pushing, but I'm waiting for it to mature. A 1 gig compact flash card is still over $120 for the most part. That's only about 90 minutes of raw audio. Minidiscs never did it for me. I borrowed one from a friend, and the whole 80 minute capacity issue took me back to the days of flipping over tapes between songs. Do they have discs over 80 minutes for stereo recordings?
Re:DATs and such.. (Score:1)
Nomad JB3 (Score:1)
GATS are still worth buying (Score:1)