CS Master's Degrees - US vs. EU Programs? 124
Monty asks: "I'm currently exploring my options and I've been wondering, is it worthwhile to seek education overseas--specifically the EU? Edsgar Dijkstra was of the opinion, though controversial, that American and European CS programs were fundamentally different (see his later writings in the E.W. Dijkstra Archives). What makes the EU interesting, in that light, is that it seems to have more openly embraced things like functional programming. So, if I want to focus my study on something of a more functional nature, are schools in the EU a better choice? What are the implications of returning to North America for employment with a foreign degree? Do they have to be accredited as proof of validity or are they usually recognized by themselves here in the US?"
It is all name recognition after all (Score:5, Interesting)
Of course it never comes down to someone from one school, vs someone from another, there is history, communications ability, interviewing skills etc.
so in that sense it doesn't matter where you get your degree, it is what you learn, and what you can show to an interviewer
Re:It is all name recognition after all (Score:2, Informative)
Iowa State is also leading the way with VR
Re:It is all name recognition after all (Score:1)
Re:It is all name recognition after all (Score:1)
How about the machine built for the 1890 Us Census by a company later to be named as International Business Machines? You know IBM.
Re:It is all name recognition after all (Score:3, Insightful)
If you think all university experiences are the same you are crazy. Also I said given that EVERYTHING else was the same - which it never is.
Yes, I am much more impressed with somebody fresh out of college who has a degree from Stanford, or UIUC than someone who has a BSCS from Arkansas st... That said, if the person from Arkansas St has something that makes them stand out (significant project experience, etc.) sure they get hired...
Re:It is all name recognition after all (Score:2)
All things considered I agree with your post, with the following tweak : the college you attended influences the first real job you ever get, after that the last job you had has quite a bit more bearing on your next job than where you went to college. Just as your high school experience is instrumental in getting you into college, after which it is (for all intents and purposes) useless and better left unmentioned.
Given the opportunity to study overseas I woul
Re:It is all name recognition after all (Score:2)
If they're not AP, you're not going to get college credit for them (unless they're administered through a local college). My definition of a college level course is: A course which counts towards the requisite courses for a college degree. I don't think your 'college l
Re:It is all name recognition after all (Score:1)
Grade Inflations (Score:1)
if you are american go live in europe for a bit (Score:3, Insightful)
If not for the degree at least to be more open to the world.
Re:if you are american go live in europe for a bit (Score:2)
Re:if you are american go live in europe for a bit (Score:2)
Fresh vegetables and fruits, fresh cuts of meat, blueberries, watermellon, refills for your Cross pen, batteries for your calculator, a strapless bra that is your size
Re:if you are american go live in europe for a bit (Score:1)
Re:if you are american go live in europe for a bit (Score:1)
when you say abroad what do you mean? I've never had any problems with anything you list. It implies that *only* the US has running hot water.
Re:if you are american go live in europe for a bit (Score:2)
When it works (which is most of the time) you get unlimited hot water for long showers. When there is down time (occasionally because a hot water main leaks and needs to be repaired
Re:if you are american go live in europe for a bit (Score:2)
Electricity
*ducks* =)
Re:if you are american go live in europe for a bit (Score:1)
Re:if you are american go live in europe for a bit (Score:2)
Maybe he didn't know at the time I was American (why do people always think I'm Canadian?), but it
Beware! (Score:2, Informative)
As far as I know, most EU PhD are recognized in the US.
My 0.02$
Re:Beware! (Score:3, Informative)
However, for France, the equivalent to a Master's degree is a Maitrise+(DEA or DESS).
Re:Beware! (Score:1)
Depends on School/Project (Score:3, Interesting)
For example, if you come back to the States with a Doctorate in Computer Science from Oxford University, and contributed heavily to the SATA, USB2, and Firewire code in the Linux Kernel, your interviewer will drool at the opportunity to have you working for them. On the other hand, if you come back with a Doctorate in Computer Science from St. Etienne Community College, and contributed heavily to gwine [tuxfamily.org] (with no disrespect to Sylvain Daubert or his work), your potential employer might be asking you where St. Etienne is, and what gwine is ("is that related to the Wine is not an emulator project?").
A few points (Score:4, Informative)
I was a student at a German university for a semester. I had received a BS from an American university and wanted to continue my education in Germany. Four universities accepted me (that was the easy part). However, three of them would only give me 2 year's credit for my 4-year degree, making me a Junior in college. The 4th university would only give me 3 semesters' credit, making me a Sophomore!
But that was the least of my problems. Once I got there, I was like a fish out of water. I thought my German was good, but it wasn't anywhere near good enough. I had an impossible time following the classes. Combined with a bunch of other personal problems (e.g. my landlady was a bitch!), I dropped out after a couple months.
One of the reasons why I got into all those universities so easily was because the idea of an American coming to Germany to study Comp Sci was unheard of, so of course they had to let me try.
Frankly, I don't think European universities are better than American universities for any of the computer fields. Sure, there are American universities that are worse than the average German university, but so what?
If you're going to study in Europe, don't do it because you think the schools are better, but that's just stupid. Do it because you want to study in Europe.
That's because it *is* equivalent! (Score:1)
Good idea anyway - really, it can't be harder than a Chinese student following English, spoken in a Texas accent,
Re:That's because it *is* equivalent! (Score:1)
Re:That's because it *is* equivalent! (Score:2)
I remember reading something interesting about these tests a few years ago. Basically, this article was claiming that the groups of students being compared were not necessarily equivalent. For example, in France they would only test students in the schools for university bou
Re:A few points (Score:3, Informative)
No, I guess we think it's actually better
I'll drop in some info about german universities, because some aspects seem to be overlooked in the discussion. Please note that the following is NOT about which universities in which country are BETTER. It's just some background information that may help. Furthermore, it's not really a reply to the parent, bu
EU Programs in English (Score:1)
Note that many of Europe's most prestigious universities are in small countries (think Uppsala, Leiden, some of the Irish ones, Helsinki, even (dare I say it) TU Delft).
if you have a choice (Score:4, Interesting)
If I didn't already have family, friends, and own a house here, I'd look into leaving. It just seems to me that the U.S. is on a slippery slope downhill. I think whatever your political viewpoint is, it's all downhill...
But that's just my opinion, and I could be wrong.
Re:if you have a choice (Score:2)
I think that the US will survive this current slump. Ashcroft and Bush have certainly detracted strongly from the freedoms of the US, as has the DMCA and PATRIOT act. But we saw the same thing happen during the "Red Scare". Eventually, people will wise up and the country will pull through. Are we going downhill? Definately. But we are still far better off than we were in th
Re:if you have a choice (Score:2)
It's not my fault that the US invaded Iraq or has the DMCA and the PATRIOT act. I voted for the other guy.
Re:if you have a choice (Score:1)
Re:if you have a choice (Score:2)
We are a union of states, remember.
don't think so (Score:1)
Re:if you have a choice (Score:2)
Don't blame me: I voted for Kodos.
I mean, come on: you saw who the other guy was, didn't you? The sad thing was that because of both of our fscked up major parties, the only real choices both sucked ass. I mean, sure, we can look at how badly Bush has fucked things up, but that doesn't mean Gore wouldn't have fucked things up, too. He just would have done it in his own, different, fucked up idiom.
A couple arguments (Score:2, Interesting)
2. From a pragmatic perspective, you're going to end up spending more money (tuition, exchange rates, visas, long distance, airfare) and at best get the same educatio
Re:A couple arguments (Score:5, Insightful)
You may have lost countless excellent graduates as a result of that mentality. I once heard a hiring manager insist in the strongest possible terms, over countless objections, that they had never heard of Carnegie-Mellon and therefore the CS program couldn't possibly be any good. I would never accuse you of being that ignorant. But it is still fair to ask: how many schools have you heard of, and how familiar are you with their programs?
Ask anyone on the street to list every college they've ever "heard of" and you'll rarely find anyone who can name a couple of dozen (not counting "University of [STATE]"). With 3400 colleges in this country, a couple of dozen is less than 1%. I usually follow up by showing them a list of the top 10% of US colleges -- 340 schools, mind you -- and watch as they realize how little they really know. And why should they? Who besides college counselors can recognize 340 schools?
It might be interesting to go through your own company's roster and see where people went as an undergraduate. You may well find the prestige schools are quite underrepresented, and rightly so: as with many things, college reputations are pure popularity contests and have relatively little to do with merit.
--
Dum de dum.
Re:A couple arguments (Score:1)
Re:A couple arguments (Score:1)
That actually makes sense if that's all the thought that you put into it, but I would like to think that you wouldn't let the fact that you hadn't heard of the school cast a negative mark over an interviewee. I mean, how many schools have you heard of??
Re:A couple arguments (Score:1)
Re:A couple arguments (Score:1)
Re:A couple arguments (Score:1)
Your loss, but no offence. How many schools have you heard of?
A major difference between universities in the US and in some European coutries, is that European universities have to meet some standards to call themselves "University". The US has the best universities in the world as well as the worst. Countries like Germany, France, the Netherlands
Re: MS* ? (Score:2)
Functional Programming?? *hisss* (Score:1, Flamebait)
Re:Functional Programming?? *hisss* (Score:2)
Here's what Paul Graham (yes, of Bayesian filtering fame) has to say about functional programming [paulgraham.com]. There is an amusingly appropriate quote: In business, there is nothing more valuable than a technical advantage your competitors don't understand.
Alright, stretching to get back on topic, I'll assert this: To a programmer, knowing functional programming is about as useful as reading literature, analyzing politics,
Re:Functional Programming?? *hisss* (Score:1, Flamebait)
Okay, try this: go to the dollar store, buy a cheap Chinese toolset, then try to rebuild your engine with it and see how far you get. Good fucking luck. Having the right and proper tools is critical to getting the job done correctly and efficiently. Nobody uses functional programming, and there are reasons why, face the facts.
Re:Functional Programming?? *hisss* (Score:2)
Like politics, studying the extremes in programming languages makes you understand the center so much better. In programming languages the
Re:Functional Programming?? *hisss* (Score:2)
Re:Functional Programming?? *hisss* (Score:2)
Assuming that's a serious post, no, the unary negation operator in C is -. The ~ operator is a "bit flip", whichever complement that is (darn, I can never remember which is which).
Don't choose based on continent! (Score:4, Interesting)
A few things to consider (Score:3, Interesting)
But before you go remember these things, unless you go to an english speaking area most programs are in the local language. How well do you speek it? To take a masters level class in Computer Science you will need to speek it quite well.
Costs, not just tuition, but also things like airfare back to the USA to visit people and so on.
Quility of Life, I have lived in the USA, England and now Israel, life is different, in some ways better in some ways worse but different, think about how it will affect your lifestyle.
Now if you decide that going outside the USA is for you, go for it, there are some very good universities in many places around the world (and some very bad ones)
Re:A few things to consider (Score:1, Insightful)
In defense of the original poster, click the Dijkstra Archives link and take a look at what Dijkstra had to say. So far, I've found this one, Computer Science: Achievements and Challenges [utexas.edu] (beware, PDF).
No, the two programs can't be compared in a general sense of which one
North American Degree != Foreign Degree (Score:2, Insightful)
The evidence does not completely fit with your question, but it is definitely an eye opener.
The article talks about a man coming from England who has a degree from Middlesex University. In addition, this man has five
Re:North American Degree != Foreign Degree (Score:1)
The question is, is this more to do with the field than the fact that they received their degrees overseas? Engineering, medecine, accounting and other business areas strike me as fields where there'd definitely be some difficulty in finding jobs outside of the degree-issuing country because each has very strict rules in practice that differ from one country to the next. Thus, immigrants might come in to the country as valid skilled workers, but realistically can't get equivalent jobs to what they could g
Re:North American Degree != Foreign Degree (Score:2)
Re:North American Degree != Foreign Degree (Score:1)
I have a hard time believing this given that I've lived here all my life. In the three major cities, the immigrant population is so overwhelmingly large, that in many places, it outnumbers Canadian-born people (just take a look at Richmond, BC if you don't believe me). I really don't think employers look at foreigners with distaste out of xenophobia. Instead, it's more of a question of how well you fit in. It comes down to the age-old question of how good your communication abilities are and how well yo
Re:North American Degree != Foreign Degree (Score:2)
I've seen this (Score:2)
I was in engineering co-op at UW, worked with many foreign trained people.
I am now working on international development teams.
My view. (yes I know I can't spell)
Different focus in different countries. Thinking and approach is VERY different in some.
There are some very excellent foreigners. There are some terrible foreigners.
Typically I'd guess that the abilities are about the same, compared to some I think Canadian trained is a bit higher on theory, others a bit mo
misinformation and doubt (Score:4, Informative)
First off, indeed, some European countries did not have a Anglo-Saxon Ms/Bs system in the past. I believe some countries adherred to a more German system, where you had the 'candidatures' (after 2 years) and the 'licenses' (after 2 or 3 years; 2 for 'normal' studies, e.g. history, archeology,
One of the formost problems with this was the diversity of the degrees. You typically had 'universities' and 'high schools (=/= american high-schools). For some long term degrees (4/5 years) the degree of a high-school did not get accepted abroad (including some engineering degrees), while the university degrees were universally (pun) accepted.
Then there were the differences between countries... Over the last decade, countries started to simplify and reform their studies. If I remember correctly, Sweden had at some point over 100 different engineering degrees.
More recently (and which has been the cause for quite some protest), all the EU countries signed an agreement to take up the Master/Bachelor system (Bologna Accords). As far as I know, this system is currently being introduced (if you start now, you should be in this system) and is retro-active (if you graduated in the old system, you can call yourself Master).
Of course, there are still discussions going on (and I basically lost the thread by now) between lobbying groups (which are sometimes powerful and recruite off campus) that e.g. think that an engineer of a university should be an MSc while one from a high-school should be a 'simple' Master (and so on and so forth). [some weven wanted to have high-schools only deliver bachelor degrees while leaving masters to the universities]. I will not go into the ramafications of these discussions, it's enough to say that if some ppl had their way, it would be more chaos again.
I just hope the politicians get their act together and for once, take some rational decisions, once and for all making the higher education homogeneous. After all, if there would be an objective difference between degree X from school A and degree Y from university B, I assume recuiters would take up on this (as they already do now for some degrees that are offered on both universities and high-schools).
But in the discussion about degrees, all rationality seems to be gone out the window at some times... Some people seem to like protecting the education and degree with all kinds of laws, thus decoupling 'capabilities' from 'person' but linking 'capabilities' with 'degree/institution'.
As for your question, if you come to the EU for studies, pick a university with a good reputation. You can hardly miss. Another note that I want to add (from my limited experience with US degrees) is that the EU educations (also depending from institution to institution) put more weight on theory (mathematics).
Re:misinformation and doubt (Score:1)
bologna is bad mmmkay
Dumbing down degrees (Score:2, Insightful)
Yes, but the result of the <language="en-au">Bologna</language> accord is that a Bachelors is 3 years, a Masters is an additional 2 years, and a PhD is an additional 3 years. The Bachelors and PhD seem way to short. For the PhD, three years is to short to both teac
Re:Dumbing down degrees (Score:2, Informative)
That's exactly it. If only the brightest 20% get a high school diploma, then that should say quite a bit about its value. Generally, in Europe you are required to fulfill all the broad education requirements in high school... whereas in the US it is put off to college. I would say for this reason it makes sense that the bachelo
Re:Dumbing down degrees (Score:1)
No. A five year programme in e.g. Germany is five years of full time study devoted to a single subject. After five years of physics, including writing a one-year thesis, I am at least worth a US physics master.
chl
Re:Dumbing down degrees (Score:1)
Re:Dumbing down degrees (Score:1)
Re:Dumbing down degrees (Score:1)
All the physics departments fight to keep up the level of their degrees, i.e. they want to keep the current curriculum with minimal changes to acommodate the bachelor after three years. Currently, if you leave after three years, you have nothing, so they basically add an extra bachelor examination (for the quitters who do not want a "real" degree).
The old Diplom degree that you got after five years would then al
Re:Dumbing down degrees (Score:2)
As far as I know, in Germany the "harmonization" has already begun, but is happening gradually. They seem to be converting programs in fields that have a more international bend (things like English lit, business, and computer science) first.
To some extent, I think it's a good thing, because it allows students to study in different countries. I'm actually doing an MS in Computer Science in Germany right now (the
Re:Dumbing down degrees (Score:2)
The main difference that I've seen between the US (where I went to high school and did my Bachelor's) secondary education system and that of Germany (where I'm in an MS program now, but I hear it's the same in many other countries) is that in the US there is only one level of high school graduation as opposed to the thr
Qualifications Assessor POV (Score:5, Interesting)
The main factor in deciding the quality of a particular country's qualifications is not the curriculum, facilities, or anything along those lines. It's the quality of the students, determined mostly by whether students gain their place at university through academic merit, or by buying a place. In the US you mostly buy a place, so consequently the value of degrees from the US suffers.
I would advise anyone trying to choose between the US and Europe for a degree of any kind to go to an English university. They don't hand out testamurs from Oxford to any sub-literate with a fat wallet.
Re:Qualifications Assessor POV (Score:2)
However Oxford is (or was) unique in the UK for one thing - If you did the hard work of obtaining a BA degree at Oxford, then held down a job and stayed out of debt for a year - your degree would instantly be upgraded to an MA!!!!!
I am not aware of any other UK university that does this. Bugger really. I had to work hard for my masters degrees.
When I was apply for degree courses 9 years ago, I did notice that Oxford on
Re:Qualifications Assessor POV (Score:1)
Well, yes and no. They're not quite the criteria, but the idea is right. But you're obliged to refer to it as BA (Oxon), and those paranthesis give the game away. No reasonably competent employer is going to be fooled (especially when the studying period fails to appear elsewhere on your CV).
Oh, and Cambridge do it too (MA Cantab).
G Ow
Re:Qualifications Assessor POV (Score:2)
I have a similar 'false' Masters in the form of an undergraduate Masters in Engineering. I did the 3 year Bachelors + the 1 year of the Masters in one go and ended up with a single MEng as a first degree - the give away is the fact that the MEng is an hounours degree which most(?) Masters are not.
Steve [Msc, MEng(Hons)]
Re:Qualifications Assessor POV (Score:1)
Re:Qualifications Assessor POV (Score:1)
Cambridge does it as well.
You see, the idea was you get taught the theory at University and become a bachelor. However you haven't mastered your art until you have some experience to back it up (and anyone that has ventured outside academia knows how much they still had to learn!). In fact, as Oxbridge invented the concept, it's really the other universities that are trying to grab an extra buck by teaching the masters.
Oh and the Arts thing is something to do with any subject, taught to a high enough
Re:Qualifications Assessor POV (Score:1)
Part of the reason for this extra depth has to be the extent to which UK students specialize. By A-Level (age 16) I was down to my favourite 3 subjects, by second year (age 19) I had only a "major" and that was slightly specialized by the end of University. Supposedly, in the England, we were a year ahead of Scotland/Europe by the start of University and some 2 years ahead
Re:Qualifications Assessor POV (Score:1)
I heard similar complaints from Europeans who came to the US to get PhDs. But I think from the American standpoint, if you get a doctorate in computer science (or whatever field) you should have some background in all the major areas of CS. If you just do research in some specialty (for me it was graphics), you would h
Re:Qualifications Assessor POV (Score:1)
Re:Qualifications Assessor POV (Score:1)
Re:Qualifications Assessor POV (Score:1)
Re:Qualifications Assessor POV (Score:2)
Yes and no. I am not trying to flame US students. Plenty of excellent folks have come out of the US system, including a huge number of great engi
Re:Qualifications Assessor POV (Score:1)
Re:Qualifications Assessor POV (Score:1)
Re:Qualifications Assessor POV (Score:1)
Funny... (Score:2)
Re:Funny... (Score:2)
Re:Funny... (Score:2)
The Asian kids knew their fields dead to rights -- but ONLY their fields. We did visual research, so these guys knew Matlab, C, and Linear Algebra like *nobody's business*. But *anything* out of that field, Calculus, physics, even basic computer knowledge was beyond these masters and doctoral level students.
Re:Qualifications Assessor POV (Score:1)
Even Oxford and Cambridge are lagging behind American universities like Harvard, Yale, Princeton.. etc.
Check out any lists such as Best MBAs or whatever, it'll mostly be American universities.
And Hey; even within the UK, new universities such as Manchester and others are becoming better than Oxford and Cambridge.
My girlfriend studied in American and English universities. Yes, English universities are more difficult but that difficulty comes out of il
Canadian Quals (Score:5, Interesting)
[Gets big 'C' book from shelf...]
Canada is seen as high quality, on par with UK / Australia, and ahead of the US by a year or so. The high school diplomas / matriculation certificates are highly regarded also. Further, the French and English institutions are considered on par with each other. Canada would be a good choice for postgraduate study.
why should a MIT guy be so clever? (Score:2, Interesting)
What have MIT done in the past 10 years in the field of, say, AI?? Functinal Languages [which I happen to hate]?
Why should someone from no-name-german-univ be worse than a guy that paid $xxxk
Re:why should a MIT guy be so clever? (Score:1, Insightful)
Um, I'm not sure what you mean, because I think the original story implies EU has the US beat over some of the more theoretical aspects of CS, and not the other way around, but ok... The real question doesn't seem to be about reputation of the school and how much social status it'll earn, rather, he's asking about the type of education that he'll get.
Yes, the majority of people seem to hate functional programming, but if it's this guy's interest, then he has every right to pursue it. And quite frankly, i
Degree not as important as coursework/experience. (Score:2)
Granted I'm a bit different when it comes to interview people and making recommendations for hiring precisely because I don't have a degree. However, that being the case, when it comes to going over their credentials, there are a few things I look for.
First off, I look at what they did. Did they write a thesis? If so, what did they write about? Did they intern anywhere? What kind of projects did they work on? If I'm looking to have a Linux cluster put in, all the people who interned and highlight non-Linux
Real World Advice (Score:2)
Cambridge University, degrees and FP (Score:2)
At Cambridge University in the UK, it's not uncommon for foreign students to come and visit for a year, at least in the science-side subjects. Those who spend their second year of studies here would typically join our own second-year students, IME, and while the background might be somewhat different, the overal standards seem to be comparable.
However, if anyone told me that four years of study at Cambridge was equal to just two years in the US, I'd laugh. Then I'd suggest that they look up what the Certi
Sweden (Score:1)
Does anyone have any information about Sweden? Chalmers [chalmers.se] comes to mind as being somewhat famous in the area....
Re:Sweden (Score:1, Informative)
Yeah, Chalmers is heavily into functional programming, specifically using Haskell [haskell.org]
Most of the other unis tend to focus on algorithms and numerical analysis, notably The Royal Institute of Technology [www.kth.se] and Uppsala University [www.uu.se]. In general all the unis are more into computer engineering type research rather than comp sci.
There is no "EU" Degree Standard... (Score:2, Interesting)
But no "high school" awards degree's of any type in the UK - only universities do that.
Most universities subscribe to the 3years==Batchelor's degree (BSc / BEng)
+1year == Masters
Some also do 4 year masters in engineering subjects (where you don't get a BEng, you go straight to the MEng after 4 years).
The top UK universities (eg. Cambridge) use a totally different system altogether...
Re:There is no "EU" Degree Standard... (Score:2)
That's not entirely true. You still get a BA after three years, and in subjects like sciences or engineering, a four-year version gets you a Masters.
NB: Masters degrees in the UK tend to come in two forms: taught and research. A taught Masters -- usually called MSci, MEng, MMath, etc. -- typically means an extra year of higher study on the end of a Bachelors degree, but still doing the same sort of lectures, practical
Why CS (Score:1)
If you want a job... (Score:1)
However, if you want a job in America, go to an American university. There are many quality CS degree programs here. You can probably find one that matches your interests wothout going overseas. More importantly, US companies focus their recruiting on American
Re:Universities in Canada? (Score:1)
Beyond that, I don't think Scheme is used much at U of T.