Hybrid/Electric Vehicles: Should I Buy?

nissin writes "I'm ready to buy my first vehicle, and would like to hear your experiences with either hybrid or electric vehicles. Are they a good alternative to conventional vehicles, or just a geek toy? Do they perform well in the city? How about on long road trips? I am also interested in hearing about other alternative, yet practical, forms of transportation that I may have missed."

Not me but a friend..

[grub]

A friend in another city has a hybrid. According to him the pickup is slow but the fuel economy is great. Pure electric would be super if you didn't have to make long trips and always had an electrical outlet to charge when parked.

Pet Peeve #843287: SUV drivers that whine about the price of gas. You bought that overpriced penis extension, learn to live with the consequences.

Prius rocks

[nate1138]

As the proud owner of a Toyota Prius, I can definitely recommend one. I'm not too hot on the looks, but the mileage rocks, and it's been very reliable so far. And it isn't as pokey as you may expect a hybrid to be. You may also want to look at the Honda Insight (If it is still being made).

Good review by friends

[X]

2 of my friends have hybrids (one the Insight and the other the Prius), and they both like them. They are great on the city streets, very quiet and lots of pickup from a standing start thanks to the electric motors. For longer trips, you'll love the quiet, the fuel economy, and the insane distances you can go without needing to fill up your tank. The downside tends to be that they have poor pickup at freeway speeds.

The other big issue is the feel of the ride. Some people love it, others don't. They have low-friction tires and stiff suspensions (to minimize the amount of energy loss). This tends to make the car ride more like a sporty car (you feel every bump) than a luxury car (soft suspension smooths out the bumps). Some people love that, others hate it.

Overall, I'd suggest taking it out for a spin, and see whether you like it. They are practical cars though.

Re:Waiting it out

[B3ryllium]

... "appliance"? Hybrid cars recharge themselves, they don't rely on external electrical power. Check out the Prius or the Civic or the Ford Escape hybrids, for example.

Electrics...

[BJZQ8]

Electrics or hybrids are nice...but just wreck one...or have one break for that matter. Nobody but the dealer will touch them because nobody but the dealer has the training and equipment to do it. Insurance companies are extremely wary of them too...I toured an insurance company and they were busy smashing them into things and seeing the effects if the batteries got shorted or spewed acid all over everyone...certainly not worse than having flaming gasoline sprayed on you, but there was a real danger of electrocution.

2003 Honda Civic Hybrid

[rednaxela]

I have a 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid and I love it. Average about 45 mpg. Use it to commute on the DC beltway - plenty of pickup for merging and passing. Have taken 2 4-6 hour trips with the car, and it's just fine - like driving a regular Civic. Really, the only noticeable difference between the Hybrid an the regular Civic is that you can feel the car nose forward just a bit as you press down on the brake pedal and the generator that is driven by the brakes kicks in. You should also note that you can take $2000 off your adjusted gross income on your 2003 taxes, and many states provide addtional incentives. Excise tax was waved in Maryland ($2000), and you can drive in the HOV lanes in Virginia without a second passenger. Bottom line - it's a great car, and a good deal to boot.

Check out the TDI Volkswagons!!

[starfighter_org]

If you look at the fuel efficiency info on the EPA site, you'll notice that the TDI (Turbo Diesel Injection) Volkswagons can get around 50MPG. They start easy in the winter, unlike the older diesels. Check out www.tdiclub.com. I just got a 2000 TDI Beetle and it's awesome. Also, there are a few modifications that give you loads of extra power from the engine. Some will even increase efficiency and give you more power. These are great cars, go check em out.

Get a Prius!

[HTMLSpinnr]

I own a 2002 Prius, and have pre-ordered a 2004 (new and improved). In short, I love my car. It's got plenty of power for your daily commute, and with my 20-25 miles per day driving, I can easily go two weeks or more between fillups. I've also made the trip from Southern California to Phoenix AZ on 6-7 gallons. It's also beneficial to know that I'm not polluting nearly as much as the big SUV's I share the road with, since the current model is SULEV rated, and the new one also carries the AT-PZEV rating for partial zero emissions.

The current model doesn't carry a whole lot, and you can't tow with either generation, but for most of us, that's not a regular issue. The new version is a hatchback with fold-downs eats, so it solves the "carrying stuff" issue.

There's plenty of Yahoo! Groups and other forums on electric or hybrid cars. A couple I personally hang out on and post alot of good geek info:

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/2004-prius/
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/toyota-prius/

See you there!

buy a motorcycle

[erikdotla]

Buy a motorcycle. Excellent on gas, better than 90% of cars out there. You get to experience the road in a way cars cannot show you. You're not trapped in a box, observing the world through glass. On a bike, you're part of the road, the scenery, nature.

If you buy a jap cruiser, you can spend as little as $5,000, up to $30,000+ for high-end bikes or Harleys. I own and highly recommend the Suzuki VL800 Volusia. A phat 800cc cruiser for around $6500.

I fill my tank for $7 (~3.8 gallons) and go 175 miles.

Battery life?

[geekBass]

I have heard good things about the hybrid Honda Civic. I sat in one (didn't get to drive though) and seemed like a regular civic.

My concern is with the batteries. I think they give 8 years guarantee but if I have to spend 10000 dollars on a new battery, I'm not happy. Yes, you could argue that you won't keep that car for that long but the same concern can decrease the resale value.

Re:Waiting it out

[bman08]

Those were electric cars. The EV1 in particular, I think. It had nothing at all to do with the EPA and everything to do with the charger bursting into flames. On the upside, Electric cars park free at meters in L.A.

Weird brakes

[Col. Klink (retired)]

I test drove a Prius during their first year and I didn't like one thing: the brakes try and capture that extra kinetic energy, but the result was very jumpy breaking.

Ars Technica had a great review already

[JustAnotherReader]

Ars Technica [arstechnica.com] did a really good review of the Honda Insight. You might find it informative.

Re:Getting a lot better

[Not_Wiggins]

I've heard that starting with next year's models, a lot of manufacturers are going to offer both Hybrid fuel system cars, but also in "traditional" body styles. Of course this is a rumor so... YMMV (pun intended). ;)

I have a bud who owns one and loves it (the Toyota hybrid). While the mileage isn't as good as they advertise it to be, it certainly is up there... almost as good as the old Geo Metro 3-cylinder car. ;)
And you can't beat how cool it is when you're sitting at a stop light and the car is absolutely silent. 8)

Re:Expensive

[Deadplant]

Canadian prices:

Honda Insight = $26,000
Honda Civic hybrid = $28,500 (approx)

Plus if you're in ontario there's a $2000 sales tax rebate for hybrids.
The rest of the country get's a $1000 rebate.

Re:Deathtraps

[RazzleFrog]

OK - Listen to this - Ford Escape Hybrid [ford.com]. Summer 2004, though.

My experiences

[JoeBuck]

I've been driving a 2003 Toyota Prius since April. I'm very happy with it.

It has decent acceleration, about the same as other cars I've driven. It's comfortable, quite roomy for a small car, the back seat has decent leg room. I get 45-48 miles per gallon, closer to 45 during hot periods when I use the A/C a lot. I paid about $21K, including options (I didn't get the GPS system). There's also a tax credit for hybrid vehicles that you should look into.

The acceleration from a standing start is quite good because both engines (electric and gasoline) pull. The gasoline engine cuts off at stops, and in slow stop-and-go traffic only the electric motor runs, which is why the Prius gets better fuel efficiency in city driving than on the highway (the EPA rating is 52 city, 47 highway).

The 2004 Prius appears to be a substantial improvement: it's larger, but gets even better fuel efficiency.

Re:Not me but a friend..

[hawkbug]

Check out the new Ford Escapes that have either gone on the market already, or will soon - they are hybrids SUVs, I just don't know about the 4wd thing, but I would have to assume they have that as an option.

2004 Toyota Prius

[Josuah]

I'm planning on purchasing a 2004 Toyota Prius this fall, when I move to California. The 2004 series has an AT-PZEV (advanced technology partial zero emissions vehicle) rating in California, and also qualifies me to park at meters for free and use the carpool lane with only me in it.

The 2004 model is very different from the 2003 model, and I would not have purchased the 2003 model (instead opting for a Honda Insight or Honda Civic GX [civicgx.com]). But the 2004 model has that much lower emissions rating and gets around 55mpg average, which is on par with the Honda Insight. The old Prius averaged 46mph according to EV World [evworld.com]. It also has a larger size, moving it out of the compact and into the mid-size category. It also performs as well as a non-hybrid/electric car, according to people who have test drove it. It has a range of ~550 miles on a full tank.

The feature set is also very impressive--much better than that of the Insight or Civic GX, for the same $20k price range. I plan on getting bluetooth and the JBL six-speaker setup, at least. There's also the automatic parking feature, although I'm not sure if that will be available in the U.S.

The nice thing about the Civic GX is that it runs on natural gas. If you buy the Phill [fuelmaker.com], partly financed by Honda, you can refuel in your own garage. But you don't have as much range as a Civic Hybrid. The Civic GX is also AT-PZEV, along with the Civic Hybrid. Unfortunately the automatic Insight is only SULEV, and the manual Insight, which gets better mileage, is only ULEV.

If you're only going to commute, then I might suggest the Twike [twike.com]. You'll have to custom order it, but if I only needed to commute then that's what I'd get. Unfortunately it is also $20k. The Tango [commutercars.com] is not yet available.

Driving Hybrids is a politicol decision...for now

[jhritz]

Even with tax credits, the crossover point for purchasing a hybrid electric car is years in the future. You can't really make an economic argument for buying one in the short term. If you think of it as a donation to the future development of cheaper car models down the road or a contribution to the environment, bully for you.

It seems to me that a hybrid electric or pure electric car is not the only choice. Honda's Civic HX coupe gets nearly as good mileage without the extra complication. It uses a lean burn engine and a more expensive catalyst to make up the increase in emissions. More energy efficient and low emission choices can be seen at http://www.greenercars.com or http://www.fueleconomy.gov.

I've driven the first generation Prius and Honda Civic Hybrid. Of the two, I preferred the Honda Civic's driving characteristics. It's also very nicely appointed, were the early Prius was fairly spartan in features. The new Prius has a larger motor which allows it to run on electric more and gets better mileage and is quicker.

If you're brave and/or have great weather, many smaller displacement motorcycles beat out cars for mileage. The need for rain gear and a certain amount of aggression makes these a tough choice for many.

Finally, if you can arrange to live in one of the few pedestrian/bicycle friendly towns you might be able to avoid the whole issue. Carsharing, www.flexcar.com, is available in many such cities.

Good luck with your decision!

Get a (modern) Diesel: VW TDI

[opkool]

Right now, TDIs are:

* fun to drive (german engineering)
* available from small Golf, sedan Jetta, wagon JettaWagen or trendy NewBug
* very safe (tons of safety features by default)
* lotsa torque (you drive torque, not horsepower)
* great mileage (EPA certifies 49 hwy, 42 city)
* you can run on BioDiesel (all or mixture of BioD + diesel)
* soon, Diesel in the US will be very clean (extra low sulphur diesel, like in Europe and Japan)
* diesel is proven technology
* 700 miles on one tank (some guys get 1000 miles)
* diesel fuel has waaay stabler price (no high huckups) than gas
* low maintenance (no sparkplugs, longer oil change intervals...)
* engines made by Audi engineers
* you can easily tinker the engine yourself :)

Check out http://www.tdiclub.com

I own a TDI and is just great.

Peace!

more on hybrids

[glassesmonkey]

I'm not sure how the pickup is slow.. The beauty of electric DC motors is the constant acceleration. I'm sure the set points in the current profile that hackers will one day be able to get into the cars to change the performance curves.

For more geekier chemistry on electric/hybrids, here's Princton's chemistry website about hybrid electrics [princeton.edu]

Pros:
At a stop light, they are silent and no emissions. Silent start-up and DC-motor acceleration until the gas engine kicks on. Cool reuse of breaking energy into charging batteries instead of boring friction and heat in conventional cars. Can be used as a power plant, say, in power outages, or maybe one day, cars plugged into grid can run gas engine to produce electricty during peak times. And they sell pretty well [evworld.com]

Cons:
From a cost point of view, they'll never beat out the super-efficient gas motors mini-cars. Battery life and cost of replacement (currently >= value of older hybrid vehicle). The impact on environment for spent toxic chemicals. Engine repairs. (I'm not sure if you've ever look in one, but they are jam-packed with every inch filled and basically unserviceable in terms of the ever fewer small jobs you can do yourself). Oh, and you *MUST* use specially licensed high-voltage service techs, which are few and far between currently. Will cause gas prices to rise -- see econ 101 supply vs. demand

Toyota Prius Reliability

[511pf]

In the compact segment it was the remarkable Toyota Prius that took top honours with 4.5/4.7 and 63/60 mpg. This car is reliable too - a Vancouver-based Prius taxi was recently taken off the road with over 332,000 km on the clock and no major repairs. It was only taken out of service because Toyota in Japan wanted to strip it down and check everything out (the driver was given a new Prius at no charge). Perhaps even Toyota was amazed at this vehicle's astonishing durability, but some credit must go to driver, Andrew Grant.

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/tw/thrifty. htm [canadiandriver.com]

Green Vehicles

[germinatoras]

A good source of general information on fuel economy is the EPA's Green Vehicle Guide [epa.gov]. This will provide some good information and cold, hard numbers. Of course, the only way to know you'll be really satisfied is by taking one for a test drive.

Re:Not me but a friend..

[El]

Subarus (Outback or Forester) get better traction, are safer, hold just as much, and get 25mpg... next excuse? Unless you're towing something or regularly have more than 5 passengers, you don't really need an SUV.

Oh, and Ford is coming out with a hybrid SUV (Explorer?) in 2004.

Definitely get a Honda Civic Hybrid

[Jerk City Troll]

My girlfriend got a 2003 Civic Hybrid with a CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission) last April. This vehcile is phenominal. As soon as I have the money, I will be getting one myself.

With proper driving technique, I've gotten it as high as 52.6mpg (average). (There is an instantaneous mpg meter beneath the average gauge that shows you what you're getting as you go over hills and so forth--it really helps you adjust your driving for maximum efficiency.) Without much thought, it usually averages between 43-46mpg. With a 12.7 gallon (it might be 13) tank, I've gone as far as 620 miles.

The engineering is quite nice, the car has been very reliable. The ride is remarkably smooth and the acceleration is silky. Handling is amazing. One nasty downside is the car is very light, so it hydroplanes easier than most vehicles. I would highly recommend getting AA-AAA rated tires (like Falkens) if you drive in wet areas a lot. They will help reduce this.

The interior is great too. If you didn't know it was a hybrid, you would think you were driving a regular car (albeit the console is very slick, kind of a retro look). It's a very spatious, full-sized sedan. The backseat floor does not have a hump in the middle and is also quite generous space-wise. I cannot say enough about the interior: it's a very decent size.

A quick summary of how it works: you have a small, 1.3L gasoline engine (I think 52hp). Right on the drive train, just before the transmission is the electric motor (that contribute an aditional 41hp for a total of 93). When electricity is "pumped" into the motor, it obviously reduces the load on the engine. This is used for acceleration and hill climbing. When idle, the electric motor does what all motors do when pushed externally: it generates power to charge the battery. The brakes are regenerative. When you stop at traffic lights or stop-signs, the engine stops to save gasoline. Since it has solid state ignition, it has zero turn-over, so it starts instantly (as soon as you let off the brake).

Apparantly, there are also a variety of hacks that can be done to cause it to favor the electric motor more for those of us who are really light on the gas pedal. I haven't really investigated this, so consider them rumors.

My recommendation: get one ASAP. You will not be disappointed with this car. It could use a few extra trimmings, but even in its simplicity feature-wise, it's a very enjoyable car. My girlfriend calculates it will pay for itself in a matter of 5 years. Nothing much more to say. At least go test drive one.

Oh, and we also looked at the Toyota Prius. Those things suck ass. They are very rough to drive. The computer screen is always full of motion and it's very distracting without lending much usefulness. Furthermore, it's cramped inside and the vehcile controls are just... bizarre. The engine compartment is also very cramped. Doing work on that vehicle would require taking a lot of shit apart, ergo it may be very expensive to service. Handling sucked. Overall, the Toyota Prius is just as shitty as its Echo counterpart.

One last note: you may want to hold off on a hybrid from anyone though. Honda has plans to market a fuel-cell powered electric car in the US within the next couple of years. Those will be far more interesting I think, if they ever actually reach dealerships.

Disclaimer: I do not work for Honda in any way. They just happen to make a spectacular hybrid vehcile.

Re:Getting a lot better

[pixelpusher220]

Actually I just bought a 2003 Civic Hybrid on Sept 1st. And I can't really complain about much. No the pickup isn't spectacular. It's a 4 cylinder engine and a small one. Total HP is somewhere around 90 *I think*. You don't buy this for power.

500 miles on a tank of gas IS pretty spectacular, when said tank is only 13.2 gallons. 42 mpg average so far, with a mix of commuting and highway driving. That figure is still rising too. I did about a 100 mile round trip highway, and got 53 mpg. Damn nice on the wallet.

The Civic Hybrid is just that. A Civic. The only significant difference is that you can't fold the rear seat down because that's where the battery pack is mounted vertically behind the read seat. Trunk space? you couldn't even the tell battery pack was there if it wasn't pointed out to you. Plenty of space for normal people.

The dealer readily admits they aren't entirely sure how long the battery pack will remain useful. So it comes with an 8 yr 80k mile warranty on that system; independant of the vehicle warranty. I got a 6 yr 100k total vehicle warranty so it's good for as long as I realistically plan to have it.

Geek factor: I'm finding it's cool being able to watch (& feel) the electric assist kick in. Or the engine shut off while I'm braking to a stop. The engine shut off is selectable; there's an 'econ' button on the dash. If it's not selected then the engine won't stop. Summer and needing AC are the main reason for that. The AC doesn't run if the engine isn't running. The fan still works but it can get warm. Having the option is a nice touch.

I'm still in the 'new car' mode of figuring things out, but this has a whole knew paradigm of stuff to figure out. The dash gauges are a pretty informative mix of what's going on. It has a instant mpg bar that goes up n down as you drive, as well as displaying the overall mpg for a trip mileage. (2 of these). One I have on total vehicle mileage so I can see what I'm getting as I continue driving. The other I use for various trips to see what different types of driving produce fuel economy wise.

All in all I'm very happy with it so far.

Re:Prius rocks

[john1701a]

I have over 58,000 miles on my 2001 Prius now.

My most recent 6 tanks in a row have all calculated to over 50 MPG at the pump (detailed data is available on my website). In fact, my summer driving of 4,741 miles calculated to an average of just a tad under 50 MPG. So effeciency is great!

Since I live in Minnesota, I can speak highly for the reliability. The Prius handled 3 winters of extreme cold (-13^F is the coldest I've encountered), snow, and ice without any trouble whatsoever. The engine started every time immediately, the heat blew from the vents in no time flat, and the traction (along with the anti-lock brakes) has proven itself quite well.

It's a great car. And the 2004 will be even better. It's larger, faster, more powerful, cleaner, and even more efficient!

I own a Prius

[scottdj]

and my wife and I love it.

We have been driving it for 2 years in both city and highway, and in all kinds of weather (we live in Michigan). It drives well, has the most comfortable seats of any car I've ever ridden in, and gets excellent mileage.

We average about 35 mpg city (due to lots of very short trips in cold weather where the engine doesn't get a chance to warm up properly), and 43 mpg highway. A little less than advertised, but still pretty darn good.

We take it on 2-3 extensive road trips each year, anywhere from 600-2000 miles round trip. It is always a great way to travel.

It has a decent amount of power. A little less than some larger cars, but we rarely have trouble getting up to speed quickly on the highway. It's certainly not like driving a Ford Escort or some similar gerbil-mobile.

One of the nice things about a Prius is that, in addition to the good mileage, the emissions are outstandingly low. Many economy cars can achieve the mileage of a Prius, but none of them qualify as a SULEV (Super Ultra-Low Emission Vehicle) according to the EPA. I believe this is better than the competing vehicles from Honda, but that may have changed with the new Civic.

The new Prius for 2004 will be larger and have a hatchback, so it's even more practical that the older version. I wish we could afford to trade ours in for the new one!

The Prius comes with a full 8-year warranty on the hybrid electrical system, so that should help alleviate any concerns you might have on the long-term reliability of the car.

In short, I highly recommend the Prius. There is a yahoogroup dedicated to the Prius as well, if you are interested in more user experiences. You can find it here [yahoo.com].

Good luck with your decision!

--Scott

Re:Not me but a friend..

[pmz]

Montana winters (4-wheel drive), cargo capacity for musical gear, room for additional passengers (though admittedly, I frequently drive in it alone), and easier access in and out (I am rather tall).

The Subaru station wagons are fair compromises for people who would otherwise buy an SUV. They are cheaper (in the $20Ks, not $30Ks), get decent gas milage relative to an SUV, handle amazingly well with their 16" low-profile tire and good suspension, etc. The only drawback is that tall people (taller than 6'1" or so) will probably find the driver's seat uncomfortable.

Diesel is cheap and efficient too

[techstar25]

The other day I was looking at the Volkswagen website. They make the Jetta, Golf and Passat in diesel models. They all get 49 mpg highway. I know that in my town, diesel is a few cents cheaper than regular (87) unleaded gas. I just don't know if the diesel models are available everywhere.

Re:A hybrid wouldn't work for me so well.

[SkyBlue]

Actually, Hybrid cars are excellent for highway driving! Only one part of driving a hybrid is the regenerative braking -- the other part is the fact that the electric motors assist the gasoline engine while driving, making for some excellent MPGs on the highway, too!

Before you excuse them as non-workable for you, you ought to test drive one and see the great MPGs you get on your commute.

Re:buy a motorcycle

[erikdotla]

Cowards, all of you.

Sure the risk of dying is 20 times higher in an accident. But the risk of getting into an accident in the first place isn't much higher than a car. If you take a class (MSF in Cal.), and know what you're doing, you greatly reduce your chance of being involved in an accident. I've got 14,000 miles on my bike (in about 1 year), commute every day, no problems.

Don't think you're so safe in a car. You can die just as easily. When I ride around and see idiot drivers, with their false sense of security indicated by the half-asleep look on their face (and don't get me started on cellphones), I realize that I'm probably safer, because I'm so alert.

Even though my risk is higher, the reward is great enough. If you haven't toured the country on a bike, you haven't lived.

(sorry about the repost, I didn't like where the other ended up)

# Erik.LA

Re:Not me but a friend..

[h4x0r-3l337]

$60,000 Hummer

It's only about $50000, or $35000 afer Bush's SUV tax break [taxpayer.net].

That was just a summary: here's answers.

[Jerk City Troll]

Are they a good alternative to conventional vehicles, or just a geek toy?

They are a great value. Your mom would be proud of you.

Do they perform well in the city?

If driven properly, you should see as high as 46-48mpg in city driving. If you drive with little concern for economy, you usually get around 43-45mpg.

How about on long road trips?

Again, driven carefully, I've gotten as high as 52.6mpg on my girl's Honda Civic Hybrid. That is accomplished by driving around ~55mph and slowing a bit when climbing hills. If you drive aggressively (say, 65-70mpg constant), you get around 47-48mpg. They can certainly keep up with traffic, mind you.

Remember, this experience is with a Honda Civic Hybrid, not a Prius. Your milage (arf) will vary.

Honda Civic Hybrid

[dsz]

I very happily own a hybrid vehicle - a 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid [honda.com] - and would recommend it highly to the right kind of person.

First, the good news: I drive my car about 40 miles a day (driving commutes suck!) and get around 55 miles per gallon. My commute is about 70%/30% highway to city driving. When I drive it around the city (which I generally try _not_ to do - Boston is bike-friendly enough, plus I live near the T), I get mileage closer to 50 mpg, and when I've gone on longer roadtrips it's up near 60 mpg.

More good news: It's a real car. It seats five. It has a reasonable sized trunk (not huge, though). With a few exceptions, it's very similar to the non-hybrid Civic, so my car is comfortable, well equipped (CD player, power everything, ABS, etc.) and pretty well designed. I wasn't interested in the Insight 'cause it's small and somewhat awkward and not what I call a "real" car.

The not-so-good news: The one large complaint I have about the car is that the back seat does not fold down (that's where they stashed the batteries).

Some economics: I spent a little less than $20K on my car. The hybrid is about three or four thousand more than the regular Civic. I'll get a $2000 deduction on my 2003 income tax (giving me about $600), and I'll save some (but not tons) on gas vs. the regular Civic that probably adds up to over about $1500 over 100,000 miles. So basically, I break even. If I had bought a used car, I would've spent far less money, even in the long run.

I think I made the right decision when I bought my car because:

• I wanted a car
• I wanted to pollute less and use less gasoline than the average car
• I wanted to support hybrid technology and send the message to auto makers that people were interested in these cars
• I happened to have enough money to do the above

So, the bad news is that supporting hybrid technology and being good to the environment (while still owning a car) is an expensive proposition right now. The good news is that the more and more people are buying the cars and that if you can afford them, they're quality automobiles.

I'd be happy to answer questions about the Civic or my decision-making process. I also collected some links and made some notes about the car - you can see those here [dsz123.net].

Yes!

[mr_resident]

I've owned a Toyota Prius for almost a year and I could not be happier with it.

I originally got it since I would be commuting from to DC from Richmond and not only would I save on the gas, but I could cruise in the HOV!!!

All the reviews I've read have been right. It's a very well designed machine.

For me, however, the best part is just how quiet the thing is. Even when at 85 MPH (slow lane speed on 95!), it's extremely quiet. Nothing like it for long trips with the MP3 player full of LEGALLY ACQUIRED TUNES!

I don't recommend spending the extra $1200 - $1500 for the in-dash GPS. I test drove one with it and decided not to get it. It's pretty cool for awhile, but it's pretty distracting and has a very limited use, IMO.

Now, if it displayed all the wide-open wireless nets, it'd be worth it!
***************

Re:Not me but a friend..

[einstein]

I'm purchasing at 2004 Prius, and the 0-30 acceleration is VERY good, but it loses some umph in to 30-60 range, because that's when the ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) kicks in for a boost.. I think up until 52 mph, you're usually just on the electric system.

that is where the complain comes from though.

From my test drives of the 2003 Prius, this is not as bad as the accelerator of a 4 cycle ICE automatic... in fact, I thought it was quite better.

and given that the 2004 is more powerful, AND more fuel efficient, I think it should definitely be a consideration if you're looking at a new car.

And then there's Oregon

[Insightfill]

which gives you a state income tax break for buying a hybrid, but charges you DOUBLE-FEES every year for registering it.

Since Oregon gets so much of its road fund from gas taxes, some bright people in congress got the idea of charging hybrids (and electrics) more money to register them. One of the gov. officials actually was quoted as saying that hybrid and electric car owners aren't paying "their fair share" of road fees. Arguably, a two-thousand pound car with skinny tires probably has the least effect on roads and road repair.

Nobody brought up the idea of free registration for gas-guzzlers. ;)

(By the way, my screen name is not necessarily because I'm a great thinker, but because I own a Honda Insight!)

Happy Hybrid Owner

[bteeter]

We bought a Honda Civic Hybrid last fall, to replace our 2 door Civic EX. (We were expecting a son, so 2 doors no longer cut it.) Well, about a year later now, we still have the car, and the kid to fit in the back.

Pros:

• The milage is fantastic. We average about 45 mpg with mostly city driving. We have taken 475 mile trips without stopping for gas, and the tank is just about 11 gallons. With gas prices going up constantly, thats a nice thing.
• Power is adequate. The change from the Civic EX to the Hybrid is virtually unnoticable. Acceleration is similar, although different since the Civic EX has a 4 speed auto, and the Civic Hybrid is a CVT automatic. CVT == Continuously Variable Transmission - it never shifts, or rather it always shifts, depending on how you look at it.
• Handling is nice. Its not the same as my 95 Corvette, but neither is a regular Civic. It corners well, drives a straight line and handles bumps pretty well.
• Interior is well designed and roomy.
• Its quiet. Even at high revs, the engine is very quiet. No need to blast the radio to hear it, or yell at your passengers so they can hear you.
• $2000 tax break
• Most states/cities let you drive hybrids in the car pool lane with 1 person in it.

Cons:

• Its small. Well, all Civics are. We have just 1 kid, and already I'm wishing for a Hybrid Accord.
• No fold down seat in the back. The battery bank is right behind the rear bench, so you cannot drop down the seat.
• Small trunk. Same reason as the item above. Batteries take up room.
• Color selection sucks. Only 3 colors. White, Beige and Blue. Lame.
• No sunroof option - not that I miss it much, but its not available.

Hope that's helpful to those considering the Hybrid. We definitely like ours, and should someday Honda do a Hybrid Accord, we'd be first in line for one.

Take care,

Brian
--
http://www.assortedinternet.com [assortedinternet.com] - CPanel Web Hosting running on Red Hat Linux

Modifications

[spectrokid]

the "few modifications" are engine chip mods that give you more power but are illegal in Europe because they cause the engine to produce excessive amounts of ultra-fine particles which cause lung cancer. In recent research on street-dogs in Mexico-city, the particles were found back in the dogs' brains. Nevertheless, a Golf(Rabbit) or Beetle TDI will straight out of the factory kick the buts of an awefull lot these US hovercr^H^H^H SUV's.

Toyota Prius

[Atryn]

We have a 2002 Toyota Prius and we love it. We get around 43 MPG and about 500 miles on a tank of gas. The tax credit (10% of the purchase price) was great and we are working on GA legislation to enable hybrids to drive in the carpool lanes as AFVs can today.

I would recommend a Prius to anyone as Toyota is also a great company to do business with. My mother is planning to purchase a 2004 Prius which has significant improvements over the current model. My only advice against buying might be to wait for the 2004 Prius. A new hybrid engine which will be much better is expected.

Rumours also have it that there will be a Lexus SUV with the new Toyota Hybrid engine in 2005.

I own a 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid

[Scottaroo]

Greetings:

I took a job which requires about 150 miles of travel per day, so I purchased the car for basic transportation. I purchased the manual transmission model due to personal preference, YMMV (literally) with the automatic model. On average, I get between 52 and 58 mpg on basic highway driving at 65 mph. Air conditioning will take 5 mpg off of that. Traveling at 75 mph will drop another 5 to 8 off of that. Wind and weather conditions can effect the mileage as well. Stop and go driving in town with the air on will net me 35 to 40 mpg. Drafting semis on the Interstate at 75 mph will get you 60+ mpg.

I'm a big guy - 6'4" and 250 lbs, and I fit in the machine pretty well. I have about an inch of headroom left. I can get the seat far enough back, but no one but a child would be able to sit behind me.

I paid less than $20000 for it - plus there is a one-time $2000 tax-deduction, so that's a bonus.

I've put about 16000 miles on it so far. It drives and handles like any other 4 cylinder basic transportation car I've ever driven. The torque is better, though, so I don't feel like I'm going to have to get out and push while trying to get onto the Interstate.

Some nits: It takes 0W20 oil, which I've had trouble finding. The good news is that oil changes are only every 5000 miles. It doesn't have much cargo capacity - total weight is only 800 lbs. You can really tell the difference when you have it full. The rear seats don't fold down like a standard Civic (the batteries sit on the rear axle), so the trunk is a little confining. I would only rate it at one-dead-body.

Overall, it's been great regular transportation. I liked it alot better than the other Honda hybrid. That car was smaller and lighter and got pushed around on the Interstate. This is a regular Civic in most every way except the powertrain.

The new 2004 Prius is spectacular!

[Thagg]

I have been following hybrid cars since their commercial debut with the Honda Insight. The two major hybrid cars out now are the Honda Civic hybrid and the Toyota Prius.

The Honda has a pancake-shaped electric motor bolted to the engine where the flywheel originally was. This is simple and straightforward, and it means that they can (and do) treat the hybrid as just another option in the car, like leather seats. The significant downside is, though, that the electric motor and gasoline motor must always run at the same speed -- there is no way to run just on the electric engine (say).

The Prius uses a planetary gearbox to mix the outputs from the gasoline and electric motors. The gearbox acts as a mechanical 'adder', adding the two outputs together regardless of their relative speed. This allows the Prius to be much more flexible in how it runs its motor -- allowing significantly increase in-city fuel economy. Astonishingly, the Prius's city MPG numbers are higher than their highway MPG numbers, because the car can often run on purely electric power in stop-and-go traffic. Also, because the car's computer has flexible and complete control over the gas engine, they can make the engine significantly lighter and more efficient -- because they can ensure (for instance) that it is never over-revved.

The new Prius a huge advance over old one. The original had the same body as the Toyota Echo, perhaps the ugliest car every built. The new one is bigger, sleeker, much more practical with a big hatchback, and gets significantly better fuel economy than the old one. It's a true 21st century car. The New York Times review, two weeks ago, was a flat-out rave.

The only criticism I have of the Prius is that it is quite complex mechanically -- and those mechnical things can go wrong. Like any other Linux user, I feel somewhat bad about handing over so much control to the car's computer, even though I know in my heart that it's the right thing to do.

thad

Re:2004 Toyota Prius

[Bearpaw]

Corporate propoganda here [toyota.com] and a positive review in the New York Times here [nytimes.com].

Re:more on hybrids

[AmigaAvenger]

[quote] The beauty of electric DC motors is the constant acceleration.[/quote] Electric motors are just as sensitive, if not more so, to improper loading caused by too high or low of rpms. They do NOT have constant linear accelerations either. electric motors must be run at a specific rpm to get the best power and efficiency. too low and you burn it up, too high and lose more to drag and other wastes

Re:Prius rocks

[c_jonescc]

I couldn't afford the Prius when I needed a car. I bought the Toyota Echo instead. The emissions arn't as great, but my avg gas mileage is well over 40 mpg, and on long road trips has freqently broken 50 mpg.

So, same gas use, half the price. Just wish the overall emissions were a bit lower.

Battery Life?

[khyron664]

I test drove a 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid and must say I was quite impressed. The pickup was nice, but about on par with a normal Civic. I mean let's face it, the car is still a Civic. The instrument panel was quite attractive, but the only nagging concern I would have about the Hybrid cars is battery life. Until these cars have been out on the road for a number of years we really won't know what the life expectancy is for the battery. I asked the sales rep and replacing the battery in the Civic would not be cheap. Still, if you're willing to take that risk I'd say go for it. The Hybrids look like great cars from what I've read/experienced. Just be aware of the possibility of replacing the battery.

Oh, and don't ask the sales rep about the battery life. One, they don't know, and two they'll say something like "I've heard it lasts longer than the car". I tried asking the sales rep I was talking to and he admitted point 1 and said point 2.

Khyron

Re:Electrics...

[241comp]

See here: http://www.firehouse.com/extrication/archives/2001 /july01.html and here: http://www.ems-fire.com/Downloa1/Extricat.pdf for information on this very real danger. Also, keep in mind that if you are in an accident in an electric vehicle it may be a matter of minutes or hours longer to extract you from the vehicles depending on the preparedness of the responding emergency crews and the condition of your vehicle (exposed high-voltage wiring harness, spilled acids, or high-pressure gas tanks which may rupture in a fire).

Bicycle/Bus solution

[macmurph]

I am also interested in hearing about other alternative, yet practical, forms of transportation that I may have missed.

I have never owned a car in my entire life.

I ride my bike everywhere I go. I save thousands of dollars on gas, insurance, maintenance, parking, tickets, registration, etc. I stay fit, so I save time and money on medical bills/healthcare. Since Im totally in shape, I definitely have more success getting girlfriends too.

I live in Seattle where the climate is fairly mild but it rains half the year. Biking in the rain sounds horribly unpleasant, biking uphill sounds horribly unpleasant. Biking in traffic sounds horribly unpleasant. You get used to all of these things when you have no other means of transport...and they quickly become non-issues. I find myself biking up the steepest hills in the city multiple times a day without thought, without exhaustion.

In Seattle, bikes can be put on the front of buses on a very well designed bike rack. So you can ride the bus uphill to a location (usually faster than biking) and bike back down (which is faster than bussing back downhill). If its pouring and Gore-Tex isn't good enough (which is rare in Seattle, believe it or not) you can always put your bike on the bus. Another reason it's nice to put your bike on the bus is if you don't want to arrive at your destination all sweaty...but you can still zip home really fast.

Bikes has been a very practical method of transportion, and its better for the environment and for the general health of the population. It's even better than driving an electric car.

There are times however when I wish I could escape the city altogether... I usually find girls with cars to take me out of the city. There are times when I wish I could hall a large object, like a computer monitor, or appliance. I can usually arrange to borrow cars from friends although I have been known to bring large objects onto the bus.

Naturally, the distance you travel everyday and your physical condition will dictate the practicality of riding a bike. But if your chief concern is helping the environment... there is no better chioce.

You can probably buy a fantastic bike every single year for same expense as buying/oiperating one used car.

Consider it.

PS. The Seattle bus system has a half-decent online trip planner that facilitates timing your trips.

http://tripplanner.metrokc.gov/cgi-bin/itin_page.p l [metrokc.gov]

Re:Not me but a friend..

[einTier]

Sure, it has maximum torque at zero RPM (the torque curve is actually flat), but generating that power takes a lot of juice, and delivering it to electric motors without completely draining the batteries hasn't really been solved yet. So, while the car will feel faster than it actually is, it will still be quite slow unless you're willing to trade off a lot of battery life.

For the record, using Car and Driver's data, here's the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times for the hybrids and a few comparisons (Ford Escape /Mazda Tribute Hybrid not tested).

Toyota Prius: 13.0 0-60 and 19.2 1/4 mile
Honda Insight: 11.1 0-60 and 18.3 1/4 mile
Hummer H2: 10.7 0-60 and 17.6 1/4 mile
Honda Civic: 9.3 0-60 and 17.2 1/4 mile
Mazda Protege: 9.2 0-60 and 17.0 1/4 mile
Toyota Corolla: 8.2 0-60 and 16.4 1/4 mile
Ford SVT Focus: 7.8 0-60 and 16.1 1/4 mile
MazdaSpeed Protege: 6.9 0-60 and 15.4 1/4 mile
Honda Accord: 7.0 0-60 and 15.5 1/4 mile
Mini Cooper S: 7.0 0-60 and 15.5 1/4 mile
Mitsubishi Eclipse GTS: 6.7 0-60 and 15.2 1/4 mile
Subaru Impreza WRX: 5.4 0-60 and 14.1 1/4 mile
Chevrolet Corvette: 4.5 0-60 and 13.1 1/4 mile

So, yes, these hybrids are indeed slow. Slower, in fact, than almost any car you can buy. With the exception of the Corvette, which I put in for comparison only, all of the above cars are within a few thousand dollars of either hybrid, and most are cheaper. Just a thought.

Re:Not me but a friend..

[realdpk]

That's a mighty SUV-sized link there. Here, let me hybridize it up a bit for ya.

http://tinyurl.com/n64o

and a free link: clicky [tinyurl.com] ;-)

Re:Not me but a friend..

[WegianWarrior]

Pet Peeve #1: All Americans who whine about the price of gas. If you really want to whine, come to the UK where our Government has turned taxing petrol into an art form.

Now, I don't know how much y'all pay for the petrol / gas in the UK, but here in Norway about 80% of what we pay at the pump end up in the coffers of the goverment - taxes, excise duty on petrol, VAT, VAT on the taxes and the CO2-tax...
I visited the US (West Virginia to be spesific) this summer, and I commented on how cheap the petrol was; just 1$49 for a US gallon (3.7 liter), while back home I pay the equalent of 4$90 for a US gallon (the price at the pump today was 9.49 kroner / liter). So honestly, the people in the US has nothing to complain about as far as the cost of gasonile goes... in fact, if the cost of it was higher in the US, we might see more sensible cars rolling of the productionlines, and less of the gas-guzzling SUVs.

The best hybrids are to come.

[Eneff]

I have a 2001 prius, and I like it. The primary disadvantage comes if something goes wrong.

Jump it wrong? 10k to fix the damage, at least according to someone at the dealership. (Something went horribly wrong there, the cost of the battery itself is 4000, with prices expected to drop to 1000 according to http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/toyota-prius/m essage/14361)

They will be cost effective, but they aren't just yet. Don't get me wrong, I really like mine and I'd love to have a 2004, but it isn't a choice to be made on economics.

Diesel is Dirty

[doctor_no]

Diesals are cheap, so if you only care about saving money it's a good alternative, BUT if you care about the enviroment it's far worse than petrol and hybrid alternatives.

It is true that modern diesel engines produce a lot less carbon dioxide than before, so some people claim diesels are enviromentally friendly, but diesels produce much more of smog-forming nitrogen oxides and toxic particulate matter (or soot) into the air we breathe than petrol counterparts. These particles, because they are small enough to be inhaled deep into the lungs, can cause or exacerbate a variety of serious health problems.

Even with the EuroIV(2005) and EuroV(2008) regulations, diesels are still much larger pollutants than petrol engines, and release more arsenic, lead, sulfur, and other particulate matter into the enviroment.

Parallel vs Serial Hybrid

[el_cabong]

I own a Toyota Prius, which is a Parallel type hybrid, meaning that the electrical drive systems operate parallel to the gasoline drive train, and can be switched on and off. The honda hybrid system is a serial system, in which the gas drive train and the electrical drive train are in line with each other and the electrical drive train operates all of the time.

The practical difference is that the parallel system gets less gas mileage (real life results 45-47 MPG) but is environmentally cleaner owing to the fact that the engine can be shut off at idle, when most of your engine emissions occur. The serial system gets more mileage, but my experience is that they don't have as much power. My Prius blows the doors off of my boss' Civic hybrid.

So keep in mind that there are differences between the designs. Just because you like or dislike one, doesn't mean that you won't feel different about the other.

I have never found myself wishing for more pickup. Acceleration is excellent, and it has surprising climbing power. My daily climb up 2000 feet (over 50 miles) never requires me to move over to the slow lane.

The car is roomy. The trunk is very functional, and it is a four door. The cup holders suck.

All that being said, you could probably get the same mileage out of a cheaper conventional compact car. Hybrids are about $3000 to $4000 more than a cheap gasoline powered compact, so you really need to have some commitment to the environmental benefits. If all you are looking for is good gas mileage, buy a Toyota Echo or something similar.

Bottom line: I have no regrets about the Prius, and I am debating trading this one in on the new 2004, which is a four door hatchback instead a trunk.

Re:Check out the TDI Volkswagons!!

[Insightfill]

Agreed. While I ultimately bought the Honda Insight for my daily commute, I looked at the TDIs for quite a while.

I visited a friend in Tucson once for a long weekend. He had the Jetta TDI at the time and including him, there were five of us in that car touring the city for days. With mountains. The car didn't even breathe hard.

After 400 miles, the car still had half a tank left.

People often look at cars as strictly a numbers game, but the TDIs (and hybrids and electrics) can be foolers. All get their pull from very strong, early torque. A good electric job with "only" 60 horsepower has tremendous torque early on, and can seriously give most Mustangs and Camaros a run for the money up to about 30MPH, which is how lots of us suburban/city people live: 0-30-0-45-0, etc.

Another exmaple of great torque early on are VW's 1.8T engines, which are rated for (depending on model year) 150-190 horsepower, but are incredibly strong right off the line. The turbo is actually ALWAYS engaged, but engages gradually more as the revs climb, giving the engine a very flat torque and power curve. "Turbo lag", as the term normally means, doesn't exist.

It's often said that people "buy horsepower but drive torque." Something to remember.

For quite a while, the Insights were besting Miata's and many other "small" cars in class "H" races, I believe, not through big engines, but strong, early torque and very tight handling. I haven't kept up, lately.

Current US hybrid choices

[mrv]

2000-current Honda Insight, 2-seater:
http://www.hondacars.com/models/model_overview.asp ?ModelName=Insight [hondacars.com]

2003-current Honda Civic Hybrid 5-passenger compact sedan:
http://www.hondacars.com/models/model_overview.asp ?ModelName=Civic+Hybrid [hondacars.com]

2001-2003 Toyota Prius 5-passenger compact sedan:
http://www.toyota.com/prius [toyota.com]

2004 Toyota Prius 5-passenger midsize liftback:
http://www.toyota.com/prius/minisite/index.html [toyota.com]
(for those who dislike Flash, info here:
http://www.toyota.com/prius/minisite/html/printabl e.html [toyota.com] and here http://www.toyota.com/prius/minisite/specs/specs_b ody.html [toyota.com] )

if you live in Japan there is also the hybrid
Estima (7-8 passenger minivan similar to the Previa),
and the mild-hybrid Crown large sedan.

if you can wait a year or so, Ford should have out
their hybrid Escape (info: http://www.hybridford.com [hybridford.com] (Flash only),
a "small" SUV/CUV that actually has towing capacity.
Lexus should also have their RX330 hybrid (the
RX400H) small SUV/CUV out (see http://www.lexus.com/about/hybrid/index.html [lexus.com]
with Toyota shortly following with the hybrid
Highlander cousin.

I've also heard of the GM/Saturn Vue, the Nissan
Altima (I think that's the model), and the Toyota
Sienna, as next on the block with hybrid powertrains
(i.e. full/assist hybrids).

Re:Check out the TDI Volkswagons!!

[Ricdude]

Diesels can and will be a lot cleaner once 2006 is upon us and ULSD, i.e. Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel is the national mandated standard at the pump. All the impressive catalytic converter/exhaust treatment processes that will take the bulk of the NOx, PM, etc. out of the diesel exhaust chain die a horrible flaming death if high-sulfer fuel is used. In Europe, diesels are meeting emissions standards far more stringent than the US will see for years. It just takes the right fuel...

Re:Getting a lot better

[mithras the prophet]

What makes hybrids affordable is that there are massive government subsidies reducing the price of the car.

Not that there aren't massive government subsidies reducing the price of oil, of course... $167 billion this year?

Re:Diesel is Dirty

[bombadillo]

You are very wrong. The newer diesel engines don't put out soot. Even with soot the egines are not that bad since the soot is heavy and falls to the earth fast. The soot falls to the ground much faster and it is harder to breath into the lungs. The petrol cars release emisions which are much lighter and thus get suspended in the air and also are much easier to breath in. There are some toxens that diesel engines produce more of. However, diesel engines also burn more efficiently. Thus putting those toxen/mile below a petrol engine.

Re:Prius rocks (and I've got a Honda)

[njl]

I disagree -- the aftermarket support it has is pretty good [coastaletech.com]. I've installed a number of these kits and been very happy with them.

That said, the Prius is pretty self-consciously a hybrid car, trying to establish a unique, "high-tech" look; the Civic Hybrid does a good job of not calling attention to itself. Your choice.

Re:Definitely get a Honda Civic Hybrid

[Jerk City Troll]

A Civic is a full-sized sedan. Uh-huh.

All modern Honda Accords and Civics use the same frame and base. The only difference is the shell and the luxuries. Also, try getting into one. They're quite large.

But you didn't look at the new Prius. When it comes out, it will raise the bar when it comes to hybrids. It's much bigger (it is a true mid-size car) and has more horsepower, yet still gets 50 mpg.

It looks cool. It's hard to get much information from that Flash crap though. Is there anywhere I can go to just get information, not a marketer's wet-dream manifested by a cheasy Flash animation?

However, it seems my primary complaint with the Prius remains in effect: the car tries too damn hard to be futuristic.

Joe Consumer doesn't want a car that looks and feels like it's from 50 years in the future. Joe Consumer doesn't want an Enterprise shuttle craft. That is not going to turn on most people except for geeks and early adopters.

I see hybrids as a direction with a specific purpose: reduce gasoline consumption as much as possible. This has many benefits which I will not elaborate on besides saving money and the environment. The Prius does not work to encourage the masses to accept electric cars. The masses don't want to know it's an electric car. They really don't care. Basically, Toyota is pushing TECHNOLOGY TECHNOLOGY TECHNOLOGY. Honda is pushing a practical, attractive car (oh, and by the way, it's electric and gets good gas milage). The Prius is loud and obnoxious. The Civic Hybrid is subtle and calm. See my point?

Toyota needs to offer a car that's offering these features and doesn't appear to be from the sapce age. That will attract many more people to the offerings. Right now, the perpetuate the stereotype (myth) that all electric cars must have this insane tear-drop shape and other crap. Sure, it may be better for aerodynamics, but people don't want that.

Re:Diesel is Dirty

[otis wildflower]

It is true that modern diesel engines produce a lot less carbon dioxide than before, so some people claim diesels are enviromentally friendly, but diesels produce much more of smog-forming nitrogen oxides and toxic particulate matter (or soot) into the air we breathe than petrol counterparts. These particles, because they are small enough to be inhaled deep into the lungs, can cause or exacerbate a variety of serious health problems.


Think global, drive local.

Also, diesel refining is less environmentally harmful than petrol refining. Also, biodiesel is a closed-cycle fuel that generates more power than it requires to produce, as opposed to E85 or other biofuels. You want a solar-powered car? Buy B100 biodiesel.

Until I can buy a hydrogen-powered car whose hydrogen is produced by an environmentally-friendly biotech process (trash-processing bacteria) I figure diesel is the way to go when I have to bring home a ton of grocery bags.

Check out 2004 Toyota Prius at Edmunds

[Flint Dragon]

This article will change your mind a little about these hybrids:

2004 Toyota Prius [edmunds.com]

Notes:
1. Average *combined* city/highway mpg is 55!
2. 0-60 in 10s! Not bad at all.

Re:Why are there no diesel-electric hybrids?

[Equuleus42]

Check out the eCycle [ecycle.com], a diesel-electric hybrid motorcycle that gets 180MPG (no typo). The only disadvantage I see is that they aren't out yet... :^)

Re:Some Hybrids make me wonder...

[JesseL]

He means low rolling resistance tires. Rolling resistance is primarily due to the sidewalls of the tire flexing (resulting in friction within the tire) as it rolls. This resistance can be reduced by stiffening the sidewalls and using rubber compounds that are more elastic in the sidewalls. To see an extreme example of rolling resistance try pushing your car accross level ground with the tires inflated to the reccomended pressure, then do it again with the tires inflated to half their nominal pressure. Big difference huh? This is why underinflated tires can overheat and catastrophicly fail cough*firestone*cough.

Re:Pickup power =! gas engine

[pixelpusher220]

This isn't the case with the Civic. The IC engine is the primary drive. The electric motor just 'assists' under heavier loads.

I have a Honda Insight and I love it.

[bigredradio]

Stay away from the automatics. The standard transmission models are awesome. I have not had any problems with power. It was obvious after I bought the car, that Honda is selling those at a loss. The technology and innovation put into this car would bring the actual sticker above 60 grand if sold at the same ratio as other cars. They are going to be discontinued, but if you get a long warranty and you should have nothing to worry about. My warranty will take me to 150,000 miles and my battery to 8 years. That seems reasonable for me. I do a lot of city driving so my average MPG is only around 50, but on trips I have gotton as high as 70 mpg. See http://www.insightcentral.com for others. Good luck.

Re:Getting a lot better

[scenic]

You're forgetting the great tax benefits [ucsusa.org] you get with owning a hybrid.

Re:Some Hybrids make me wonder...

[SillySlashdotName]

Pretty much, exactly, and right on the mark.

In fact, the InSight and Prius are routinely sold with under-inflated tires because the dealers have learned that people like the ride better than when the tires are inflated to spec. You can also look at some of the web sites devoted to people who are into getting as high gas milage as they can and they routinely OVER-inflate their tires to lower the rollong resistance.

Re:Prius rocks

[lpp]

Regarding the Honda Civic Hybrid, which the Toyota Prius is typically compared with, one thing to keep in mind is the pollution rating. The Prius is rated as SULEV, one step worse than ZEV which stands for Zero Emissions. The Honday is a ULEV, which is the next step worse from SULEV. Though the mileage is similar in both vehicles, if you are considering the purchase on environmental concerns, reconsider the Prius.

As a note, the ratings go:

LEV - Low Emission Vehicle
ULEV - Ultra Low Emission Vehicle
SULEV - Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle
ZEV - Zero Emission Vehicle

Sound goofy, I know, but that's how it breaks down. Oh, and I bought a Prius earlier this year. Love it.

Buying Civic Hybrids

[Fareq]

I bought a new civic in 2002. I didn't buy the Hybrid, even though I really wanted to. Here's why. 1: Battery needs to be replaced roughly at the 100K mile mark. At the time I was looking, they said that was on the order of a $1500-$2000 service. 2: Sticker price of the car is roughly $4000 more than that of a normal "LX" model. 3: I really hated the interior color. This is a real trivial thing, but... I really just didn't like the beige and brown thing. 4: It was a brand new first-year model, and I generally don't buy first-years, especially on drastic technology changes. When the '04s come out very soon (if not already) then this one is solved. That said, there were some benefits: 1: A $2000 tax credit (in CA) which wouldn't have affected me much, because as a semi-poor college student, I didn't pay $2000 in taxes... 2: I figured an estimated savings of $2500-$3000 over the life of the battery (given my driving) 3: A few little bonuses are included in the car, such as climate control, which I think is really spiffy. 4: It's a hybrid. Awesome geek toy 5: Gives me even more reason to mock all the SUV drivers out there. In the end, I decided that, over the life of the battery (I'd probably sell the car at the 100k mark rather than fix it) I'd save about $3000-$4000 and spend about $4000 extra NOW for the privelage. If the following 3 things were true, I'd have bought it: 1: I paid enough taxes that I could really benefit from the $2000 tax credit 2: The interior/exterior were available in some better colors. 3: It wasn't the very first model year. If only two of these were true, I might still have done it. But none were, so I didn't.

Re:Check out the TDI Volkswagons!

[sstaton]

The technology is actually called Turbo Direct Injection, named for the manner in which diesel oil is dispursed into the combustion chamber to maximize combustion, thus extracting more thermal energy and leaving less unoxidized fuel and other nasty things in the exhaust. Unfortunately, as many posters have noted, in the United States the quality of diesel fuel is poor (high sulfur) and thus even with the better fuel economy, there's probably more nitrous pollutants coming out of the TDI engine than even a light truck puts out (maybe, with CAFE set on "stun" for trucks and "kill" for passenger cars, it's hard to tell).

I test drove all three (Civic, Prius, TDI) but chose a Golf TDI because it was less expensive than either the Civic Hybrid or Prius, and VW's ergonomics are far better than the Civic and Prius (the new Prius is going to be a far better experience than the initial version). Plus, with VW cars you can get the Monsoon sound upgrade for a nominal fee (8-amp, 8-speaker CD/Tape/FM/AM) in all models. The Golf TDI comes in two flavors (GL, GLS) and the Jetta TDI comes in both sedan and station wagon, also in GL and GLS trim. That's right, a real, honest to God station wagon that isn't half bad and can really haul a decent load.

The TDI will gladly haul you at over 100 MPH if need be, and I typically get 43 MPG driving in D/FW traffic well above the posted limits and/or in horrendous sprawl-induced jams. Stick with the five-speed unless you simply cannot drive a standard ... the extra mileage will make you smile. I usually drive 560 miles between fillups, and I often have a gallon or more left in the tank at that point (VW's ad claims 750 miles between fillups ... that's possible if you drive 65 MPH and hit no traffic on Interstates).

P.S. The typical diesel gas pump is a filthy mess unless you buy diesel at the pricier pay-at-the-pump stations that actually offer it (usually there are only one or two diesel pumps). Truck stops have the best prices ... usually ten to twenty cents per gallon below the national brand stations, but they're really nasty to fill up at (and no one in an eighteen wheeler, let alone a "dually" pickup, can see your TDI).

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Not me but a friend..

[Maddog Batty]

Now, I don't know how much y'all pay for the petrol / gas in the UK

UK prices are about the same. My local pump is 76.5p per litre.

Some conversions for you.

76.5p / litre =
290p / US gallon (3.79 litres to the US gallon)
348p / UK gallon (4.55 litres to the UK gallon)
$4.64 / US gallon (1.00 GBP = 1.602 USD)
$5.58 / UK gallon

Honda Insight - 63mpg avg 75mpg + common

[Anonymous Coward]

My wife and I drive a Honda Insight manual. We've had the car for 13k+ miles. Our lifetime economy average is just over 63 mpg. It's common to pull into the driveway after a two hour roundtrip on the highway having completed the trip at 75mpg or more. ( my record is 86mpg for 54 miles ) The insight is a VERY spacious two seater hatchback, ie two people and lots of stuff. With ten gallon tank, it's common to go 3-4 weeks without visiting a gas station! The car will hit over 100mph if you want to drive fast. And it's very hard to go below 50mpg even which going 80-85mph. Unlike all the other hybrids the Insight is built out of aluminum with attention paid to details like aerodynamics. In other words it's not just another sedan with a hybrid power plant. The car has been 100% reliable so far; not a fault. I can recommend highly!

Re:Getting a lot better

[Anonymous Canard]

Funny you should mention the Crown Victoria, since it is one of two commercially available alternative fuel vehicles. Both the Ford Crown Victoria, and Honda's Civic are available in Natural Gas [ngv.org] models. As alternative fuel vehicles go, these are pretty easy to use -- they handle like gasoline engines, are easy to refill (in California) at many PG&E stations in the area [cngvc.org], at the cost of about half your trunk space, and about two-thirds the range between fill-ups of the same gasoline powered vehicle. Or, like an EV, you can fill up at home [fuelmaker.com].

Natural gas is almost entirely domestically produced. It costs less than $1.50 a gallon [pge.com] of gasoline equivalent, and it is renewable and clean. Plus, here in California an alternative fuel and low emission vehicle gets you permission to use the commuter lanes [ca.gov], even over toll-bridges, which can save considerable time and money.

And in case you hadn't guessed, I like mine pretty well. Range and trunk space aren't good, but they aren't embarrasing either. Availability needs to be improved, but I happen to have a PG&E station just along my commute path, so it works out fine for me.

Get real!

[El]

A hybrid Civic that gets into a minor city-street collision with a minivan or SUV is probably going to be so expensive to repair, that the insurance company will want to total it out.
A Honda Civic Hybrid that gets into a "minor" collision is going to use the exact same parts to repair as a non-hybrid Civic!!! Meaning there is less chance of it getting totaled, because it cost more!!! The only non standard parts are the engine, batteries, and dashboard. The batteries are in the safest place in the car -- behind the rear seat. If your batteries and dashboard are destroyed, you've got bigger problems then replacing your car -- you're most likely dead. "Minor" collisions rarely require replacing engines; if you're in a collision that requires a new engine, your car is probably totalled regardless of whether or not it is a hybrid!

Re:My geo metro

[captainstupid]

I hate to burst your bubble, but Civics are very reliable. Do a quick search for Civic reliability and you'll see they're rated *VERY* well.

Re:A real danger of electrocution?

[Tailhook]

What, if you hit a telephone pole and power lines fall on you?

You die. That stuff is really heavy.

Re:Check out the TDI Volkswagons!!

[squeegee-me]

Quick note on a 4cyn Jetta TDI a friend has:
He has a manual, and tends to over fill his tires on long road trips - not wise nor safe, but it adds to your MPG count - he claims he gets about 70 MPG on the freeways in ND.
Also, there are a lot of E85 engines out there now... they can take standard gasoline and Corn fuel. The filling stations are rare, but the corn fuel is about 105 octain, and you need no modifications to switch between the two fuels. There are over 70 E85 gas stations in MN where I live, and they are trying to spread them elsewhere too.

Here are some links for you to look at:
http://www.al-corn.com/faq/e85.asp
http://ww w.exolmn.com/e-85information.htm
http://www.motor trend.com/features/news/112_news03 0226_fuel/index1.html

Also here is a link to a search by the U.S. DoE by auto type:
http://www.ccities.doe.gov/vbg/progs/search _class. cgi

Re:.26 Cd? No Way Dude

[blunte]

_1_ [netease.com] - .31Cd for the newer, more aerodynamic 240sx...

_2_ [infinitinews.com] - .34 or .35 Cd for the 1997 model.

_3_ [tripod.com] - .30 Cd for the 1991 240SX SE

_4_ [edmunds.com] - .29 Cd for 2003 350Z Track Model!

So now, you still claim your old 240sx has .26 Cd?

I think there's some emotional attachment here...

I drive one

[jACL]

Have had it for a year, and learned a lot about them.

There are three hybrids being sold right now:

- Honda Civic Hybrid
- Honda Insight
- (2003) Toyota Prius

The Hondas use a gas engine as their primary engine with an electric engine (which doubles as a generator during braking) as a secondary source of acceleration. Think of this arrangement as a gas engine with a massive-battery-powered electric supercharger. If the electric engine fails, the gas engine will still get you there -- it just accelerates slower.

The Prius is the other way around -- its primary engine is electric, and a secondary gas engine gives it the acceleration. In the Prius, it is possible to drive (with very little gas pedal pressure) on electric alone -- something the Prius owners call "Zen driving." If the gas engine fails, you can still drive on the electric.

Reliability:
I know people who own both a Honda Civic Hybrid (HCH) and a 2003 Prius. I personally own the HCH. I would have no hesitation in buying one again. I average 54 MPG in the summer, and 45 MPG in the winter. Range is ~600 miles per tank; I drive 50 miles a day, and fill up twice a month. I have heard that it is possible to get ~700 miles/tank in a Prius, but have never got a first hand report of that.

The Honda had one early bug with deep, cold weather -- very occasionally, the electric system would shut down and not restart until the car was shut down and restarted. A flash of the computer firmware fixed it. Many people reported this problem. It also had an issue with a squeak in a support pillar, fixed by shimming with a business card. Maintenance visits are scheduled for every 10000 miles. Gas mileage is better on the highway (51 mpg) than the city (49 mpg).

The 2003 Prius has had more problems. Issues were with "highway wandering" -- it feels like the car wants to migrate around the road -- and shaking of the steering wheel at low speeds. Cause: the entire power steering rack needed to be replaced. There's also the gas engine failure called the "Big Hand" that's fixed with a similar car reboot, but it's caused by the Accelerator Pedal Assembly needing to be replaced. Many people report that they've had both of these problems. Maintenance is more frequent at 7,500 miles. Gas mileage is better in the city (51 mpg) than the highway (49 mpg).

I don't know anyone who drives a Honda Insight. Supposedly they still make ~1500 of them a year, but rumor has it that Honda is going to be dropping them.

Near-term and Farther-out Models:
The Prius has been out longer than the HCH, and is getting a technological refresh in 2004. The 2003 Prius and the HCH are both 4-seater compacts, but the 2004 Prius will be a mid-size, with better mileage (59 city, 51 highway) and better acceleration (0-60 in 10 instead of 12). There is currently a waiting list for them.

Cars/Trucks/SUVs due to be released as hybrids in 2004:

Honda Accord,
Honda CR-V,
Ford Escape

2004 or 2005:
Chevy Silverado
Saturn Vue
GMC Suburban

Here's an in-depth look [ucsusa.org] at Hybrid technology from the Union of Concerned Scientists (Google HTML translation here [216.239.51.104]).

Here's the best description [arstechnica.com] of what it's like to drive one.

There is a federal tax deduction of $2000 [fueleconomy.gov] for buying a new hybrid. Several states also offer their own tax deductions or credits -- check here [dsireusa.org] to look them up. Some states (but not all) also let you drive them in their high occupancy lanes, even though you may only have one driver in it.

Oh, by the way -- I know that the 2003 Honda Civic Hybrids are

Re:Real Question: mpg vs total vehicle weight

[tchuladdiass]

Basically, the main thing that the hybrid does for you is it lets the car re-capture the energy wasted in breaking, and apply that to taking off again. Which is why the Honda gets better milage in city than highway (most cars do better on highway milage).

MY experience (GREAT) with 2000 Honda Insight -hyb

[www.sharkdefense.com]

A great little car. I bought mine used for $10K with 30K miles on it, and just sprung for the extended warranty. I love it. I was driving a 2000 4-Runner, which I have to keep for towing and transporting cargo - this was costing me $40 a week on gas. I drive a short commute daily, lots of stop and go, and on the weekends some 30-50 mile trips to friends and family.

Now, the cost of the tank fillup is $15 max, and that gets me 600 miles. In town and highway, I usually average about 55-61mpg, your mileage will vary depends how much of a hurry you are in. I enjoy driving the Insight since its like a game, of power - charging the batteries while coming to a stop, driving off without using the battery assist, its very enjoyable for me.

Pros:
SUPER GEEK factor, I enjoy telling people about the car, and since hydrogen fuel-cell cars are years away from being affordable, I think its a good stop to take. Love the tech factor.

Interior nicely laid out, nicer than the Prius for sure, havent seen the new one yet, but to me it looks like a 4 seater Honda Insight.

CONS:
Road noise is higher due to the low-rolling tires, but its not bad. SUVs have to deal with wind noise, and there's almost 0 of that for this car, so its a trade off.

A 2-seater, so no children in front of the airbag, which you cannot turn off. Passengers = 1.

WIND- sometimes on those really blustery days you can feel a little wind on the road, on some pavement the car can be a little "squirrely", but its minimal.

Tires - not meant to be used at the Indy 500, its not a car meant for tight turns. They have to have high air pressure in them (I run with 44psi) and they're cheap, $70 a tire when you need them replaced.

_______________________________________________

I have found that the storage space below deck to be adequate (about the size of two grocery bags full) but I usually put stuff on the back deck too, if they dont move around much.

Overall, its a great feeling to drive 600 miles and fill up ONCE A MONTH. The guy at the local gas station gets a kick out of when he sees me pull up. The Insights have A/C and all the usual power windows and such, I did replace the poor factory stereo and speakers and that did wonders. Snow is not great for the Insight 1) it sits low and can plow snow in about 4-5inches of snow, and 2) handling is not great. Change the tires and lose the great mileage. I have a 5 speed and it gets better mileage than the CVT, but its all your preference.

For more information, check out www.insightcentral.net - a great resource for those debating to buy or not. Overall, my best purchase in a long time. New they're $19K or so, so it might not give you the savings you want over time, but check for Insights on the internet on used car dealers and find a good deal for someone who traded it in for a 4 door and you're set.

www.sharkdefense.com

Re:Not me but a friend..

[athakur999]

Using pure electric vehicles would still cut down on emissions, however, even if the source energy is derived from fossil fuels. It's much easier and more efficient to keep track of the emissions on one fossil fuel plant powering 1000 electric cars than it is keeping track of emissions on 1000 fossil fuel cars.

As a quantitative basis of comparison...

[the_ed_dawg]

The Honda Insight runs around $19,500 from Edmunds [edmunds.com]. The hybrid Civic is comparable. The Toyota Prius is roughly $20,500. My Saturn SL sedan cost $13,200 with an extended service plan and gets between 34-40 mpg, depending on location and traffic conditions.

solve( 13200+1.69(miles/{34,40}) = 19500+1.69(miles/57), miles )

Given that the Insight gets 57 mpg, at the current cost of gasoline of $1.69 (in my locale of Lafayette, IN), it would take between 314,108 and 499,965 miles for the costs to become equivalent. Even if the price of gasoline jumps to $3.00 a gallon, it still requires a minimum of 176,947 miles to equalize.

Keep that in mind next time that you're shopping for hybrids. They'll save you a buttload of money with respect to a big ol' SUV, but it takes a long time to catch up to a less expensive compact.

By the way, I love driving my car... and it doesn't look goofy. :)

Re:Getting a lot better

[Dr Caleb]

What about that whole gas tank exploding when hit from the side issue?

There is no such issue. The issue is when the car (Crown Victoria or other Panther platform vehicles) get rear ended, or rear ended from an oblique angle or off center position, since the gas tank is in the rear, it can spill fuel and catch fire.

This really isn't an issue ethier, as it will withstand a 70 mph direct rear end impact from a 5000lb vehicle and not spill any fuel. Fires ocurr when the speed of the vehicle are over 80 MPH.

Let's see anyone in a Honda survive that impact.

Re:Diesel is Dirty

[doctor_no]

Here are the facts:

1.) To meet SULEV standards, that current Petrol hybrid Toyota, meets you need to make less than 0.5 g/kWh of nitrogen oxides pollutants, for Diesel EuroIV standards that will be enacted in 2005 the minimum is set at 3.5 g/kWh. Most diesels cars on the road don't even meet these EuroIV standards today. Even the best Diesel standards produce six times more nitrogen oxides than the Hybrid cars discussed.

2.) low-sulfur diesels aren't widely available in the US, the country that produces the most pollutants from automobiles in the world.

3.) Bio-diesels are great but aren't available almost anywhere.

4.) 90% of particulate matter produced by diesels are less than 1 micron in size, thse small particles are not easily exhaled, and stay inside the lungs for long periods of time, corroding cells and ultimately leading to tumor growth (http://www.vpirg.org/campaigns/environmentalHealt h/dieselExhaust.html).

Prius vs. Civic Hybrid

[wramsdel]

My wife and I just went through the process of buying a hybrid, and settled on the 2003 Civic. Let me point out that I've owned both Hondas and Toyotas in the past and been very satisfied with both brands. There were a number of factors that influenced the decision, but the biggest was that the back seat is a bit bigger in the Civic which is nice when you need to haul your friends around. Some more observations on both:

The Prius is a hybrid from the ground up, the Civic is a Civic from the ground up. Toyota wants you and everyone else to know that you're driving a hybrid. If you're looking for "neato" appeal, go for the Prius. You get to watch a little cartoon of the drivetrain every time you accelerate. As for the Civic, you'd never know it was a hybrid if they took the "charge/assist" indicator off the instrument cluster. You'd just think it tended to stall at lights a lot.

The design philosophy behind the hybrid drive is dramatically different in the two cars. Toyota chose a larger motor and smaller engine than Honda. The Civic motor is integrated into the flywheel and thus the motor assist is only available with the engine running. The Prius motor is able to run independantly of the engine, allowing you to run entirely on electric power. I really liked the idea of being able to creep on electric power, but not enough to choose the Prius over the Civic.

You can get a standard transmission in the Civic. This was unavailable in the 2003 Prius, not sure about the 2004. I really like standards, so this was a point in favor of the Civic. The only thing to watch out for is that since the motor is hanging off the back of the engine, the clutch has to be engaged for the regenerative braking to work. This took some driving style changes for me as I'm used to downshifting as I stop and spend a lot of time with the clutch disengaged. I still maintain that this is a good idea because if I have to get out of a nasty situation I like to find myself in the right gear so I still have some positive control (i.e. acceleration). Unfortunately (in this case) renerative braking is a big part of the hybrid concept so I've resigned myself to staying in a high gear longer than I normally would. No biggie.

The handling on the Civic is a whole lot nicer than I expected. There's surprisingly little body roll when cornering. Still, I wouldn't exactly consider it a performance car. I can't comment on the handling of the Prius, as when we went to the dealership to test drive one the response was "We don't have one." Click. And that was that. As I said above, I've owned Toyotas and dealt with the dealerships before, and this was definitely not a typical experience.

So overall, I'm very happy with the Civic Hybrid. We didn't buy it for the mileage, though 45 MPG on my urban commute to work is nice. We didn't buy it for the geek factor, though that's nice too. We bought a hybrid to show (even though our purchase is just a drop in the bucket) that there's a market for newer, more environmentally sound technologies. Everyone will say that you can get the same mileage from a Geo Metro or a Volkswagen TDI, and for the most part they're right. But these are hardly revolutionary, and if we keep going down that road eventually the development will become asymptotic. Moore's law simply doesn't apply to internal combustion. Of course hybrid isn't a panacaea, but at least it gives the manufacturers some experience in electric drive and it keeps the gears of innovation turning.

Depends on what you want in a car.

[pavon]

I know someone who got a Civic Hybrid, and I have done a fair bit of research into getting a hybrid myself. First off I admit that the main reason I wanted to get a hybrid was for the geek factor and to support the development of this cool technology. These aren't the most economical - normal Honda Civic and the Toyota Echo are less expensive overall. They also aren't the only environmentally friendly things out there. Many cars have emissions that are plenty good enough. Plus I'm not too concerned about depleting our use of oil, as it could be replaced with biodesiel very easily, and if oil became scarce it would be economical to do so. They are not the most versatile vehicles either. However, they are good at all of these things. (oh, and the chick dig em :)

Now onto my experiences. At the time I was looking I had some complaints about the Prius. First the controls were horrible. You thought talking on a cell phone was bad, try using a tivo-like all-in-one display for he radio, AC battery monitoring etc. The controls on the Honda Civic were damn near reaching perfection in design. Simple and effective. Then again I am thinking of getting my masters in UI design so maybe I'm more picky about theses things than others. Also the braking felt a little weird, and the car was ugly in my opinion. However, you should look at the new 2004 Prius. I don't know if the controls or braking have improved, but the appearance has changed (I like it), and they moved the battery (both civic and prius currently have it in the rear seat back), so you can fold the rear seat forward.

Driving around the city was great in both of these cars. They had more pickup than some of the normal cars I test drove. They do not have much acceleration at highway speeds though, which means you need to think farther ahead and try and not slow down if you don't need to. I imagine driving in city highway traffic would suck. The only killer for these vehicles are long hills. There is one hill coming into Albuquerque that I'd have to drive often. I've been told that you end up completely draining the battery on this hill, and then left with only the motor you slow down to about 45mph by the time you reach the top. Luckily, there is a truck lane on the hill, so you aren't obstructing traffic.

While all of the battery and electric motor technology for both of these cars have very good warrantees (8-10 years) the main area of concern that I had was with the CVT. We don't know how well these are going to hold up, and as far as I could tell they were not covered by the warrantee.

In my case, I decided to go with something less expensive, with a proven high reliability, so that I could get it paid off quickly and then not worry about it when I decided to go back to grad school. I think that is basically what if comes down to - are you willing to put up with the small annoyance that you cant always go as fast as you'd like and take the small risk that the car might not last as long as you want? If so I think a hybrid could be a great car for you. Under different circumstances I could easily see myself getting a hybrid.

PS: some people have mentioned the VW Jetta Turbo Diesel. I really, really liked this car. The only reason I didn't buy it was because a couple groups (including Consumer Reports) have found it to have serious reliability problems. Last time I checked it was in a race with the Ford Focus for being the least reliable sedan on the market. Shame.

Motorcycle

[N8F8]

Buy a decent motorcycle and use have the gas while having 10 times the fun. Or buy three really good bikes for what that hybrid is gonna cost you.

Using vegitable oil in your Diesel

[forringer]

I tried to mod the parent up, but I want to add some more links for running your diesel car on pure used vegitable oil (so my mod points don't work on this thread). This is VERY economical and earth friendly. I speak from experience that running bio-diesel or SVO (straight vegitable oil) is a great choice. Follow the "best kit" link for a kit that will work great in your VW TDI and get 50+ mpg on a bio-friendly free fuel!

I use dio-diesel in my old VW rabbit pickup and get over 60 miles per dollar. For a $600 investment in a SVO kit, the fuel becomes free ... I am saving up.

best info [infopop.cc] good kit [greasecar.com] good kit [greasel.com] best kit [biofuels.ca] best book [joshuatickell.com]

Re:more on hybrids

[kavau]

Will cause gas prices to rise -- see econ 101 supply vs. demand

Hmmm.... in my econ 101 class we learned that increasing demand leads to increasing prices, while falling demand causes falling prices... that's why spring is the best time to shop for new skiing equipment. So shouldn't the advent of hybrids cause gas prices to fall?

Re:5-speed

[wramsdel]

I own a 5-speed Civic Hybrid and I don't find it noisy or jerky at all. As for engine/motor balance, that's all handled by the IMA (Integrated Motor Assist) computer and is a function of the engine RPM and accelerator input. It's no different than the CVT in that respect. What is different is that I have a bit more control of where I am on the torque and horsepower curves. Also, admittedly, there's a certain play aspect to it. You're right about the mileage, at least in the city, but on the highway the manual is better. The CVT gets 48/47 and the manual gets 46/51. Finally, the manual is 61 pounds lighter and $1000 cheaper than the CVT.

Prius vs. Civic

[devnullkac]

I own a 2002 Prius and the biggest difference between it and the Civic Hybrid lies in its planetary gearing system (which the Civic lacks). In the Prius, the on-board computer can decide what combination of gasoline engine, electric motor, and electric generator (they're separate) to connect to the drivetrain, depending on conditions. In the Civic, the gasoline engine is permanently connected to the drivetrain, so it's always turning, even if it's not being used. There are two main consequences of this difference:

• The planetary gearing system seems to add about 1000 pounds to the vehicle curb weight.
• The Prius can take the gasoline engine off the drivetrain any time it needs to.

A friend who owns the Civic Hybrid complained that in city driving, the gasoline engine will turn off it you stop at a light, but if you advance even a few feet, it will turn the engine on again and not turn it off until the vehicle has gone up to about 10mph and then back to zero.

My Prius can use the electric motor alone at any speed, as long as the load is low enough, and the only "unnecessary" use of the gasoline engine is when the A/C is running (this is fixed in the 2004 model) or if the engine hasn't yet gotten to optimum running temperature.

Of course, YMMV :-)

Re:but what about his point?

[plastik55]

5) I drive a large (Dodge Ram 1500) truck specifically because I'd prefer to be the stronger car in an accident. I don't wanna die unless I have to. so sue me :)

Please, please, read the statistics, you're more than twice as likely to die in a Dodge Ram 1500 [hwysafety.org] as in a safe 4-door sedan. [hwysafety.org] The safety record on pickups is simply atrocious.

It's non -hybrid cars that don't make sense

[hmbJeff]

I think what people fail to grasp is that the hybrid system exists primarily for the purpose of recovering the energy of motion of the car and reusing it. Ordinary cars make ZERO use of this energy, except to squander it as heat in the brakes or uselessly compressing air in the cylinders during deceleration.

This is like pedaling your bike up a hill, then getting off and walking it down the other side. In a hybrid, the energy you spent going up the hill is transfered into the battery on your way back down, and is thus available to let you climb the next hill for free. The only losses (aside from the usual wind speed and friction losses that apply to all cars) are efficiency losses in the recovery system, which are fairly small.

This is why Hybrids like the Prius get BETTER mileage in the city, because they can recover energy from starts and stops, but cannot recover it from wind resistance on the highway.

This kind of system makes so much sense, it is embarrassing that we have spent the last 100 years using twice the fuel we need to do the same job.

And to those who feel that the hybrids are some kind of crippled yuppie guilt machine, I say wake up.

The 2004 Prius is a mid-size, 5 passenger car with all of the amenities of many luxury cars (wireless hands-free entry, voice operated heater/radio/navigation system, 9 speaker JBL stereo, ABS, stability control, side curtain airbags, wireless hands-free cellphone interface for bluetooth enabled cellphones, etc.) and is a pleasing, sporty looking 5-door hatchback. It goes zero to 60 in 10 seconds (about the same as a 4 door Camry). With all this, it gets 60 MPG in the city and 55 on the highway. It sells for between $20-25K depending on options.

I say cars like this are possibly the best cars ever built, from the standpoint of value, usability, efficiency and fun.

The only thing they don't do is cater to the bizarre idea (long promoted by the auto industry and their lap dogs at the car magazines) that everyone should want their daily transportation to perform like a race car. But that is another rant ;-)

Re:As a quantitative basis of comparison...

[anthony_dipierro]

Even if the price of gasoline jumps to $3.00 a gallon, it still requires a minimum of 176,947 miles to equalize.

Actually it's even worse than that, because within those 176,947 miles you'll need a new (and quite expensive) battery.

Hybrid Tech Proliferation

[Gumber]

Toyota is running print ads in select publications (saw one in Technology Review) boasting about their latest generation of hybrid drive. The specifically mention the acceleration performance it can offer in conjunction with a v6, which sounds like they are targeting it at much larger platforms than your average Prius, or even a Camry.

The ad also strongly implies that they will be selling the tech in cars beyond the prius within the next year.

Companies are also taking advantage of the recently establised standards for higher voltage electrics to do hybrid-like things. They are replacing the flywheel, starter & alternator with a motor-generator and a larger battery.

This allows them to capture braking energy in the battery, and use it to enhance acceleration, and to kill the engine at stoplights and quick-start it (like the current hybrids)

Re:Biodiesel, baby!

[ramk13]

Why does the EPA rate a supposedly fuel efficient, environmentally friendly 2003 diesel Volkswagen Golf as Tier 1 as and give it a 1 out 10 for an air pollution score?
Check it out yourself: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm [fueleconomy.gov]
NOx is the problem: http://www.epa.gov/autoemissions/faq.htm#diesel [epa.gov]

Re:Ah, the "it hurts the poor" fallacy

[drinkypoo]

The urban poor would probably be better off with bicycles rather than a car anyway (no cost to register, insure, fuel or park them, and fewer health costs due to lack of physical activity).

Right, because it's easier and safer to take your kids to the doctor on a ten speed than in a car. Nice thinking there.

The poor will be buying the cars that were new 5-10 years ago, almost no matter what those cars were. If you demand fuel prices aimed at the poor, you're demanding that nothing change because all the Chevy Caprices cannot be turned into Metros with the passage of a bill; it has to start somewhere.

Yes, with legislation demanding that a certain (high) percentage of models sold be more fuel-efficient and have cleaner emissions. This has been going on already, and is continuing to go on, and it is improving mileage and decreasing emissions. So the problem is being solved, through legislation as you suggest, but at the automaker end. It's not necessary to do it by raising gas prices.

If you are so concerned about the poor, increase the Earned Income Tax Credit to compensate for the higher fuel taxes they'd pay and phase it out as the vehicle fleet is replaced by the more efficient one.

I'm a student. I am currently living on grants and student loans during the school year, and working summers. As such, I don't get any earned income tax credit, because I don't make enough money during the year. (Federal grants are not taxable income.) So I'm just fucked by this? Thanks for thinking of me.

Get the Prius

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't get the Civic though, get the Toyota Prius, an altogether better vehicle with better mileage than the Civic (on occasion we've managed 500 miles on an *11* gallon tank on the highway). Our average combined mileage over the last 3000k miles or so has been 46.5 mpg. Also, it is a very sweet car with more power than the Civic, smoother powertrain, roomier cabin, etc. Maybe the Civic is less expensive though??? I can't remember the Civic pricing because it became a non-issue as soon as we tested the Prius.

Crappy Oil

[Anonymous Coward]

It is also because most people in the US still use "regular" oil, not synthetic. Using a full synthetic oil is much much better for your car, and greatly extends the period between which you need to do an oil change. My understanding is that most people in Europe have used Synthetic oil for quite some time now, but I could be wrong about that.

Also, it is a big scam that kind of leftover from older dirtier cars, when oil really did get dirty quickly, but even with conventional oil today you don't have to change that often.

Re:Not me but a friend..

[Anonymous Coward]

You are surely joking? Public transport is a national disgrace unfortunately. In the present term of our government this has been a constant issue and liability for them with no end in sight. Its simply not worthwhile catching a train; its more expensive than running a car the same distance and the experience is unpleasant; they are dirty, unreliable, overcrowded (as in uncomfortable even to stand in) and nearly always late. Complete waste of time and totally incompatible with the needs of anyone with a steady job. Although the UK is a small country relatively speaking, a 200 mile journey is still a 200 mile journey at the end of the day. Whilst we tend not to focus our entire lives around car use (as I understand is necessary particularly on the West coast), most people are still commuters. There is no viable alternative to the car at the present time, particularly as city property prices continue to rise outside the grasp of even the relatively wealthy first time buyer.

Re:but what about his point?

[justzisguy]

Yeah, and those 70's and 80's vintage cars seem to come out of accidents looking a whole lot better. Old cars are stronger but certainly not safer.

I was just rear-ended a month ago. The guy totaled my Saturn even though it was *only* a 40 MPH impact (I was at a red light, he was drunk and uninsured). I was able to walk away with no injuries simply because the car took the energy from the impact instead of me.

Cars are expendable. People are not.

Hybrids are a Practical and Useful Option

[pgrady7]

I've been driving a 2001 Toyota Prius that the wife and I picked up in September 2001. It's a very good compact with reasonable power, fantastic gas mileage, high reliability, and certain location-specific advantages. As to your specific questions:

Are they a good alternative to conventional vehicles, or just a geek toy? If you didn't know it was a hybrid, you wouldn't see any difference.

Do they perform well in the city? Other than getting used to not hearing the engine run while driving in slow traffic, you won't notice a difference.

How about on long road trips?No difference from any other car. The numbers on the car are roughly 115 horsepower for 2765 pounds empty weight

FYI, the location-specific advantage deals with how certain states classify hybrids with respect to high occupancy vehicle (HOV) restrictions. My current state, Virginia, allows me to pay a little extra for my registration and with "clean special fuel" plates run HOV with only the driver in the car. I understand California does something similar.

Further advice

[winterdark40]

I own an identical vehicle. The above advice is great, and I would add:

1. If you can buy an Insight with manual transmission instead of automatic, do it. The former has a very low fifth gear that greatly improves mileage on high-speed trips. It's not uncommon for stickshift Insights to get 80-90 mpg where the automatic version would get 65-70 mpg.
2. If you need power, you can hit a switch on the steering wheel to go into "Second Mode." This tells the computer to work the engine harder instead of resorting to battery. You lose efficiency but get much more power. That small engine is surprisingly potent. Second Mode kept me from bleeding off my battery on the Pennsylvania Turnpike, and I always use when I need strong acceleration at highway speeds.

Re:Not me but a friend..

[Shadow99_1]

Unfortunately your views are heavily urban biased...

Let me provide a slight education on more rural areas fo the US (which makes up the vast majority of the livable area in the US)...

Means of local transportation:
Walking-
Good for short distances but the doctor visit is out since he lives in the city some 20 miles away... that's one long walk... oh and forget emergencies where 911 isn't available)
Manpowered Cycles-
Bicycles and other wheeled vehicles powered by a human being. Makes that 20 mile trip above easier and faster, but most roads aren't built with such transportation in mind. Also theft becomes more of an issue... Lastly keep in mind the limited storage ability...
Horse driven locomotion-
Either simply riding on a horse or using a buggy with a horse(s). Since I live in Omish country this is a somewhat common sight even today. But you then incrue cost of feeding and maintaining an animal as well as equipment and life expectancy is short for a workign animal. Does improve the disadvantages above though...
Mass Transit-
This doens't really exist in most rural settings... The best in my area is a single bus that comes through monday to friday at 6am and back through at 6pm, to bad if your job doesn't allow you those work hours or you dont' live on it's direct route. And it only travels 20 miles between the largest city in this region and the 3 towns til it hits the edge of it's trip with one stop in each of the cities mentioned.

Why do I feel the need to provide this (above) education to you? Because your limited self centered world view would kill off rural transportation dooming us to truly become those hill-billies you think we all are, since no good means of travel exists besides the car in thsi situation...

Oh and just in case you decide to get uppity about why I don't live in the city... Well I left the rural life and went to college for CIS... Well when I graduated the '.net' revolution had disintegrated a few months back and I found most of my skills weren't in as high a demand anymore... So instead I moved back hoem and went back to college to make myself (hopefully) more employable by switching fields (and delaying repayment on those loans). Now I'm done with my second round of colelge and tech jobs are nearly none-existant locally and things like relocation expenses aren't being paid by most companies for my skillsets... Either of them... So here I stay. So no we aren't all hill-billies or degenerates that can't 'hack-it' in the city...

2000-model Insight: I love it.

[seebs]

I got a 2000-model Honda Insight in May of 2001. It was on sale, so I got it, along with a very-extended warranty, an air conditioner, and that early AIWA MP3-capable CD player, for a total of about $19k - $20k after the financing dust settled.

Do I really get 70mpg? Not in general.

I really do get >50. Consistently.

I've driven something like 24,000 miles in this car. I live in Minnesota, which has awful weather; I run the AC all the time in the summer, and our winters are famous. The car's "auto-stop" feature doesn't work below about 40 degrees F, so the car just idles at stop lights in winter.

Would I get another? Hell yeah.

I went from Saint Paul to Seattle and back, and commuted while I was there, for a week. The entire trip used about 55 gallons of gas; that's just over five tanks. So, we filled up five times, and got home with a half-tank.

Performance: Performance is just fine. Everyone bashes the Insight's punch, because they're driving it like any other car. Doesn't quite work. Second gear in the Insight can be used from about 5mph up through about 60. If you really want to accelerate, stay in a low gear; the gear ratios are incredibly broad. 5th gear works from about 23 to about 113. The pick-up is right there when you really need it - getting out of snow drifts, for instance, or peeling out on a left turn when traffic is bad. Once you're at freeway speeds, it's a little sluggish, but it's still a fine car.

I cannot possibly communicate how wonderful this car is to drive and to park. I regularly get parking spaces in winter because Minnesotan parking lots tend to have half-spaces which are full of snow. The Insight fits; nothing else does. You can parallel-park this car between people while they're kissing, and only nudge them in the shins a little.

It's a nice, maneuverable, little car, and it gets great milage. I have put in about a tank of gas a *month* since I got it.

Yes, I'd get another. And this is the 2000 model; I'm sure the 2004's are nicer.

I own a 2002 Prius, and

[Safety Cap]

what you described ain't necessarily so. The electric motor/gas engine tradeoff depends upon your driving habits, average speed, temperature, and traffic. To those unfamiliar with the Prius, it uses the electric motor to accelerate from stop and then again to supplement the gas engine. The gas engine can kick in anywhere from around as high as 34-36(?) MPH and as low as 1 MPH, depending upon how much lead you have in your foot. Running cruise control is the most fuel efficient way to drive the Prius. The moment you touch the gas with your foot (even to hold speed constant), your MPG goes down. The gas tank appears to be 11.45 gallons or so (the owner's manual doesn't always jibe with what I put in the tank), and I get in the range of 450-560 miles per tank, filling up every 9-12 days.

Driving habits
I'm currently experimenting with varying driving habits to see which way gets the best gas mileage. I first tried maximizing mileage at expense of speed, so I tried to running all on electric up to 34-36 MPH, then slowly accelerating to the speed limit, but never more than 60 MPH (we have 65 in places). The best I could do was average 54.5 MPG. I then tried rapid, aggressive acceleration to the desired speed, then kicking in the cruise control. This netted me approximately 47 MPG. Note that the first method appears (judging by the "you're number one" signs I got from other drivers) to be more courteous, as folks tend to get testy when they can't accelerate for 50' to the next red light--even when you stay in the right lane. As for power, when I'm in the pole position, I usually leave all the other gaspigs [gaspig.com] in the dust. Despite their eight or ten cylinders, they have a lot of mass to move.

Average speed
The fewer stops and accelerations you have, the better your gas mileage. The first 5-10 minutes of any trip nets you crappy MPG, as everything needs to heat up before it starts working efficiently. The electric motor doesn't seem to like the cold, so it lets the gas engine do most/all the work. That would be fine, except the gas engine also doesn't like the cold. This brings us to...

Temperature
When the Prius is cold, it is not happy and gets poor(er) gas mileage. Presumably driving the Prius during the Winter months in an area with a propensity to snow would cause poor(er) gas mileage.

Traffic
The heavier the traffic, the slower you go and the more you rely on the battery. At some point, there will not be enough charge in the battery to run the electric motor, so when you take your foot off the brake the gas engine will start. When you come to a dead stop, the gas engine will cut off (this technique also saves gas when one is waiting at a light, railroad crossing, or the takeout line at White Castle (slammers, baby!). The Prius likes relatively unclogged highway best, optimally between 55 and 60 MPH. Much faster than 63 MPH and the average MPG starts dropping.

Re:Getting a lot better

[GMontag]

Natural gas is almost entirely domestically produced. It costs less than $1.50 a gallon [pge.com] of gasoline equivalent, and it is renewable and clean.

Oil is just as "renewable" as natural gas. They both come from the same hole in the ground.

The natural gas advantage is in not having to refine it. The downside is not having as many products that can be made from it. If you make anythiing (besides a gooey mess) from oil you are going to end up with some gasoline or just vent it off as waste.

Awsome troll!

[GMontag]

You are confusing natural gas with propane. Natural Gas is just scrubbed methane. Methane is produced from innumerable sources, and is absolutely renewable; while it is often found in the same pockets as oil reserves, there is no reason at all that natural gas has to be obtained by mining; any decaying plant or animal waste will produce ample quantities of methane.

LOL! Now that is the best troll that I have seen in quite some time! I usually do not respond to them, but some people migh fall for the parent comment.

Propane [npga.org] is certainly not a gas that came straight from the ground. It requires more processing than gasoline. It is no more renewable than it's parent source and was created by a fellow who thought gasoline companies were ripping everybody off.

Natural Gas [naturalgas.org] is the stuff that comes from the ground and is non-renewable.

Methane [epa.gov] is "renewable" and the EPA also identifies it as a "greenhouse gas" (for those of you who believe in that greenhouse nonsense).

Now, if you have the instructions to a gas grill, see what those instructions have to say about propane, methane and naturel gas. They usually say the three are not interchangable or that modifications must be performed before switching.

Re:Getting a lot better

[Natchswing]

> Contrary to popular opinion, using a higher-grade gasoline has shown no noticeable affect on fuel economy.

And really it shouldn't. The Octane grade is an anti-knock rating. If your car has a high compression ratio then the manufacturer usually recommends a higher octane gas. It's designed to keep the gas from firing prematurely.

Re:Awsome troll!

[Anonymous Canard]

LOL! Now that is the best troll that I have seen in quite some time! I usually do not respond to them, but some people migh fall for the parent comment.

I'm not trolling. I may be in error, but on the same site that you linked to, in the Background [naturalgas.org] section it states that Natural Gas, in its purest form, such as the natural gas that is delivered to your home, is almost pure methane. Methane is a molecule made up of one carbon atom and four hydrogen atoms, and is referred to as CH4. This is exactly what I claimed Natural Gas is, ie: scrubbed methane.

Searching for PG&E documents I'm not able to find any that describe the exact make-up of end-user Natural Gas in California, more exact than the overly broad "mostly methane." I did find CPUC documents that require that any Natural Gas piped into the state must have a statutory minimum of 90.8% methane (the bulk of the remainder is made up of ethane, propane, CO2, and SO2. I know from friends who work at PG&E though that at least the SO2 is removed before it is put into any of the residential supply (my fill-ups come from substations that are attached to the residential supply network.)