Hybrid/Electric Vehicles: Should I Buy? 2117
nissin writes "I'm ready to buy my first vehicle, and would like to hear your experiences with either hybrid or electric vehicles. Are they a good alternative to conventional vehicles, or just a geek toy? Do they perform well in the city? How about on long road trips? I am also interested in hearing about other alternative, yet practical, forms of transportation that I may have missed."
alternative form of transportation (Score:1, Interesting)
There's something I've heard about -- it's called a "bicycle".
You know, car magazines can answer this (Score:5, Interesting)
Hybrids get great mileage, and they work. What's not to like? Buy a Prius, or a hybrid Civic. Or, wait a couple years, because Toyota is supposedly going to sell everything in a hybrid model by 2005.
Biodiesel (Score:1, Interesting)
Some Hybrids make me wonder... (Score:3, Interesting)
What if you made a full internal combustion car with a lightweight aluminum chasis, a variable speed transmission, low resistance tires and sleek aerodynamics?
The hybrids are pretty much the same except they suffer heavy batteries, gain regenerative braking and have smaller lighter IC engines.
Prius: (Score:3, Interesting)
One neat feature the Prius has is a "B" setting on its automatic transmission. This is like regular drive, except it is used for long downhill stretches where breaking is needed, the "B" setting forces constant regenerative braking so you store much of that descent energy.
As I understand it, Toyota plans on putting the dual in all their new vehicles after a certain point. I would certanly like on in my 1989 4Runner as the gas milage on that thing is awful.*
* FYI I am probably one of the few people you see on the road who can acutally justify owning a SUV as I need it for teaching Whitewater kayaking and Mountaneering.
CVT a good alternative (Score:2, Interesting)
Of course, as mentioned above, it will probably be difficult to find somebody to work on that transmission, so you may wonder to consider trying to determine of this technology is just a temporary novelty, or here to stay.
BioDiesel (Score:1, Interesting)
I got a diesel car and converted it to SVO on because of a
Re:Some Hybrids make me wonder... (Score:4, Interesting)
This has pretty much been done. Aside from the full CVT, I believe this kind of car is called one of "Saturn S Series", "Honda Civic", "Toyota Corrola", etc. These cars pretty much all have a spaceframe chassis, small 4-cylinder engine, smaller tires, etc, and they represent just about the best mass-produced conventional cars can do without becoming a "Toyota Echo" or "Geo Metro".
I personally have no problems with the idea of a hybrid car. However, all we need, now, is economies of scale bringing down price. The relative simplicity of a hybrid car (electric + smaller gas engine) should allow up-front costs and maintenance costs to go even lower than current cars (eventually, that is).
Then run 'em on GREASE (Score:2, Interesting)
Greascar [greasecar.com]
I was going to consider a big 4-door diesel pickup (similarly modified) but the cost is roughly 3X the VW! Eeek! Mr. Bank Account vetoed that right after my wife did.
My wife works for a chi-chi culinary school so I have a good source for grease, but any greasy spoon will do.
Re:Prius rocks (and I've got a Honda) (Score:5, Interesting)
Fryolator Oil (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Not me but a friend.. (Score:2, Interesting)
Pet Peeve #843289: SUV drivers who whine about rollovers or shitty stopping distances.
As far as I'm concerned, the best vehicle, all things considered, is a good old full-size American sedan (I say American because the Japanese don't really compete in that segment, and the European entries are way overpriced). Examples would include:
I'd list the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis/Town Car, but that's an archaic design that really can't even be called a car; as for Chrysler, I don't trust them on anything above the cloud cars (Stratus and Sebring).
Re:Check out the TDI Volkswagons!! (Score:5, Interesting)
http://www.tdiclub.com/
Hybrid electrics are a joke, a stopgap technology until something better comes along. Don't bother.
Comment removed (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Not me but a friend.. (Score:5, Interesting)
And the idea that an Economy car is "undersized" is absolutly silly. If anything they are apropriatlysized for the general use case. Thats transporting 1 or 2 people (which is about what you see in 95% of cars on the road at any given time... SUV or otherwise).
Frankly in the long run its cheaper and safer for EVERYONE to drive an economy car, and rent a larger vehicle when you NEED one. You know that MAYBE once a year or every two years that you might move, or maybe that weekend or two you actually go camping.
Biut whatever, once oil price hit where they really should be, I imagine the much touted "Market forces" will take care of the SUVs so im not too worried. And I will still be tooling around in the most practical vehicle I have ever owned...
my motorcycle... 40 MPG in the city, 50 on the highway, small enough to make room and I NEVER have to look for parking.
Not to mention it can fit between traffic in a jam, out accelerate ANY 4 wheeler (taking off or comming to a stop), and lets face it... get the biggest fucking SUV penis extention you want...
When it comes right down to it... everyones watching ME ride down the street, you in your SUV are just another boring fish in the sea of SUVs and other cagers... and with all that... an empty tank still only costs me $5 to fill.
-Steve
Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)
Why are there no diesel-electric hybrids? (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Check out the TDI Volkswagons!! (Score:2, Interesting)
Bullshit! MB diesels last forever, get great mileage (27mpg @ 85-90mph, 4880 GVWH), have superb handling up to and over 100mph, and are very reliable. You have to go to the early 80s and before to get temperamental glowplugs. My '87 SDL is a creampuff... at ~359000 miles!
Diesel's got a bad rep because of shitty construction equipment, unmuffled trucks and gas-crunch American diesel cars (like the oldsmobile diesel)..
Re:Some Hybrids make me wonder... (Score:2, Interesting)
So, what exactly do you mean by low resistance tires? Resistance, ie friction, is how a tire works in the first place. Otherwise you would just spin in place. Also, reducing drag is good, reducing weight too much means that you have to introduce a spoiler to keep enough downward Force on the car. So, reducing weight and sleek aerodynamics is good and I agree that cars have a lot of work to do in this area, but just remember the car has to stay on the road.
Go Diesel! (Score:2, Interesting)
Grassoline (Score:2, Interesting)
Two Types of Hybrid (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Getting a lot better (Score:4, Interesting)
They are still CRAP (TM). They will continue to be crap until they are 100% fuel cell driven or batery driven. If your main engine is electric having breaking recouperation makes sense. If it is hybrid it only adds weight, complexity and increases maintenance costs and it cannot recoup more then around 20% of the used energy ().
For example the new Toyota Prius delivers lower MPG then the Daihatsu Sirion which is made by the same Toyota group (51 best vs 57 best). It is also slower and more sluggish (14 s to 62 compared to under 9.0). It also has higher emissions (almost twice worse on all counts). All of it while carrying the same amount of passengers and having only 30 liters more luggage space. It has a huge maintenance bill as the battery cells last only around 40-50 thousand miles and it has high ongoing maintenance as well. It is also a bomb. There are very few things that are more suicidal then sitting on a shorting battery in an accident with a fuel tank nearby.
Also I will not even compare it to a modern diesel. The new Audi A2 TDI which once again carries the same number of people and has the same luggage space (320 or so liters) can deliver 80mpg with even less emissions then the Sirion. That is VW which I hate. Still it is the diesel king, but Peugeot, Mitsubishi and several others are not that far behind with figures in the 50-60 MPG with corresponding emissions for a small family car. They also beat the crap out of the Prius on maintenance, acceleration and overall driving experience.
Hybrids are not the answer. They help develop technology which is useful for fuel cell or fully electric vehicles, but they are definitely not the answer. So I think they should be sponsored even further so that technology can be developed. But I will not buy one. I will chose something less polluting.
Re:Getting a lot better (Score:5, Interesting)
Do the math: let's say you drive 12k miles a year, this is 285 gallons of gas. So you pay around $500 a year for gas. A regular sedan owner with 21 mpg would pay twice as much, ie $500 a year more. In 10 years he will pay $5k more. Person who bought hybrid already paid ~$4k more when he bought the car, and will pay at least ~$1k more for more expensive service.
So from the point of view of money, hybrids do not worth it - and would be considerably worse if automakers were not forced to sell them (some percentage of total cars sold should be hybrid or electric in U.S.).
I think hybrids are great for environment and a cool techno gadget, but hopes of saving on gas - forget about it. Not in the U.S. where gas is still very cheap (compare with Europe).
Re:Getting a lot better (Score:3, Interesting)
Remember too, the Insight has a maximum payload of 365 pounds -- including passengers. Hope you don't know anyone who's even slightly overweight.
Excise (Score:2, Interesting)
what econ course did you take?
How about "Excise tax theory"? Hybrid vehicles use less petrol but tear up the roads just as much, government has less money for road repairs, government increases petrol excise, price at pump goes up.
Diesel-Electric Hybrids Are Coming (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:A couple of thoughts... (Score:5, Interesting)
1999..........$0.899
2003..........$1.799
Yeah, it can't possibly double by 2007. Why, we'd have to get involved in a war in the Middle East and have accidents at offshore oil rigs and have problems with the Alaskan Pipe line and have an energy company-friendly administration that won't release oil reserves...
Re:Getting a lot better (Score:2, Interesting)
your month to month savings on the thing is more important than the over all costs.
Re:Not me but a friend.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Second, while I agree that going out of your way isn't worth it, what I, and most people I know, do is that they will generally try to remember to fill up their tank when they happen to be near a station they know to be cheaper.
For me at least, I don't care about 2 or 3 cents, but often there will be $.10 or even $.20 differences. That's more like $1.50 per fillup, and if you fill up your tank a couple times a month, it can add up to about $35 or $40 per year. Not a lot of money, but not something to just throw away for no reason.
You note the cost. Interesting point... (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes, Civic Hybrids are fairly expensive vehicles for what you get. It's a matter of weighing the appropriate price-performance ratio.
It should be interesting to note that while Honda sells these for about 20,000$, Honda manufactures them at 30,000$ (according to a salesperson at Herson's Honda in Rockville, MD).
So while it's good that we're supporting hybrid technology and trying to encourage auto manufacturers, they may not move forward as quickly as we'd like. Perhaps with increased popularity, they'll produce a higher volume and refine the manufacturing process? Who knows.
Unfortunately, according to the same salesperson, Honda is interested in selling these vehicles so they can reduce the average vehicle emmissions of all cars they sell. This allows them to legally sell more SUVs and other gas guzzlers (hence they are willing to make a 10,000$ write-off on every Civic Hybrid). Nothing for free it seems. What a lousy trade-off.
Tires (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:2003 Honda Civic Hybrid (Score:3, Interesting)
First, you must also purchase a Virginia "Clean Fuel" plate (i.e. MD/DC registered hybrids can't use VA HOV lanes).
Second, there is reason to believe that this is not permanent. The Federal Government never authorized VA to do this, and has been threatening to take VA to court. See VDOT's HOV FAQ [virginiadot.org] for more, including the following:
Re:Not me but a friend.. (Score:2, Interesting)
Non-intuitive mpg (Score:3, Interesting)
Something interesting (to me) is that they get BETTER milage in the city than on the highway. Look at the two popular ones... it looks like a typo when they say something like 45 city/39 highway.
My belief of why:
The recovery of power when braking in the city combined with the engine idle not being wasted at stoplights (gets converted to stored power)
versus
the squared function of air resistance in highway driving (as speed doubles, the air resistance quadruples).
Re:Getting a lot better (Score:3, Interesting)
The engine shut-off isn't quite what it's cracked up to be. Yeah, when you stop at a light or in traffic the engine shuts off. But if you creep forward a bit the engine won't shut off the next time you stop. You have to get up to a certain speed or go a certain distance/time (not sure yet what the rules actually are) or next time you stop the engine stays on. And it doesn't even recharge the battery at that time. It's very frustrating because I sit in a lot of stop & go traffic and you can't just stay put when all the cars in front of you are rolling. You let off the brake and the engine kicks back on, and the only way to ensure it turns off next time is to let a big gap form between you and the car in front of you then gun it and step on the brake. Not a thing you want to be doing in heavy traffic.
I'm not yet 100% convinced a hybrid was the best choice. The gas mileage is great and the ultra low emissions is nice, but I passed up on a lot of frills to get them. (You can get the top model Civic practically maxed out for less than the hybrid.. you give up a sun roof, fog lights, fold-down rear seats, and more). But for all intents and purposes, even the hybrid is just a regular car. It's spunky enough. I've had no trouble getting up to speed on the highway or keeping up the speed. Even with such a "weak" engine it still goes pretty fast. And besides, it's one of the only cars that gives you that 'holier than thou' feeling. So maybe I'm 80% convinced. Ask me again in a couple of weeks.
Re:Not me but a friend.. (Score:3, Interesting)
What about batteries? (Score:3, Interesting)
However, the poster commented that, as with laptops, these batteries are unlikely to last more than a couple of years, and will then have to be replaced by the owner, at the unsubsidized replacement cost.
Is this true? Anyone care to comment on the battery issue? Again, it was a while ago, so my memory may be faulty, or the original poster may have been full of shit, which is why I'm asking. This post is meant merely as a question, not as anti-hybrid FUD.
Re:Good review by friends (Score:4, Interesting)
The downside is the insane distances it can go while doing long distance driving. Try going 500 miles between fillups (better than 7 hours) without stoping to empty YOUR tank.
I don't know what people are complaining about pickup... I've not had any problems... but then I am not a leadfoot to start with and tend to keep it under 70 MPH anyway
Wierdest thing to happen to me in a Prius... Going over the Grapevine N of LA... going up at 70 MPH engine whining away... get to the top of the hill and start going down - and the engine cuts off. Complete silence. Very spooky going 70 with the engine off
power drain (Score:3, Interesting)
It's about discharge power. One of the real challenges in battery selection is the total power they can output, which is dependent on the battery architectures. This is why you need different batteries for "high-drain" devices like camera flashes than you do for, say, a walkman. For acceleration, you need the drain as high as possible, and at some point it tops out.
It's hard, given all the engineering considerations, to make a battery that drains as fast (ie, Watts) as a typical gasoline engine.
Re:Do the math. (Score:3, Interesting)
They certainly do if they make sufficient profit on SUVs. Perhaps they make 10,001$ profit on SUVs. Of course, I am just parotting what the salesperson said. It could be just a sales tactic to make us believe we were getting a really good deal. Of course, that doesn't figure because my girlfriend was deadset on a hybrid anyway: the sale was already made when we learned this.
Who knows. Perhaps Honda wanted to bite those costs to jumpstart the market for Civic Hybrids before going into really high-volume production. The car is still kind of new (even though they've been popular in Nihon for years). Maybe they are further willing to eat those costs to get 100,000 people to test the technology to help bring it to maturation.
Also, do not forget that Honda makes a solid profit on the millions of other cars they sell every year. 100,000 compared to their yearly sales is almost insignificant.
You also have to consider that a loss of 1,000,000,000$ over a certain number of years isn't that big of a deal for a company like Honda, especially if their long-term goals are served by the loss. It's just like any other business expense.
The Civic Hybrid (Score:2, Interesting)
It's remarkable how like a regular car the hybrid is. I was for some reason expecting the handling to be balky and the acceleration poor. Instead, I find that it handles very well and the pickup is quite impressive. The low-end torque from the electric motor is surprising; the first time I backed it out of our driveway I spun gravel all over the place! I didn't anticipate that I would enjoy driving the hybrid, but have been quite pleasantly surprised. It does not feel like the "granny car" I was expecting.
By putting the Civic in "Economy" mode, you allow it to shut the engine completely off whenever the car is at a dead stop. Lacking a separate starter motor, the restart when you let off the brake is virtually instantaneous. It feels unsettling to me to have the engine shut off like that, though, and in the summer, it's a drag because it turns the A/C off as well. For these reasons, I generally leave "Economy" mode off.
The milage is great; even with my lead foot, the A/C on, and the "Economy" setting turned off, I get about 43MPG. With "Economy" turned on and the A/C off, it gets more like 50MPG. Because of the way the hybrid engine works, you actually get slightly better milage in the city than you do on the interstate.
My only complaints - and they're pretty minor - are the trunk space and the styling. The trunk isn't tiny, but it isn't as large as I'd like on a family-type car. When we put the baby stroller in the trunk, there's scarcely room for anything else. As far as the styling, it's purely a matter of taste - my wife likes the look of the Civic. It's not sporty enough to suit me.
In all, we're extremely happy with our purchase. I'm looking forward to replacing my car with a fuel cell model a few years down the road.
Re:Getting a lot better (Score:4, Interesting)
Maybe you have every option for the model you seleced, but I can assure you that the top-end (US models, at least) VW Jettas have had both instantaneous and average MPG displays since 1998 at least (my 1998 Jetta had it, as did my 2000, and so does my new 2003 Jetta GLX).
I can't recall the acronyms for the older sub-models, but in the case of 2003 Jettas, you can't get the "dash computer" (which includes the MPG displays among other cool features, such as miles remaining in tank, trip time, etc.) unless you get the GLX model, which really has no options (I think you can pay for 17" rims vs. the standard 16", but that's not really an option, more of a dealer-provided aftermarket thing, I believe). You get V6, leather, sunroof, power everything with memory, monsoon stereo, automatic climate control, trip-tronic automatic transmission, alloy rims, etc. with the GLX whether you like it or not, and several of those features are unavailable on lower-end Jettas.
To bring this a little bit back OT, I'm surprised that the mileage isn't better than the 30-50 the opsted noted. I get 29-31MPG avg in the city with my V6 Jetta (and I am an acelleration-addict), and almost 40MPG on highway trips. I thought the hybrids were much better.
Physicist's Dream Car (Score:2, Interesting)
My wife drives it 66 miles each way to work through the mountains and gets 48 mpg. I drive more gently and usually get 52-55 mpg. Once warmed up (about 5 minutes), it gets 55 mpg through city streets with lots of stop signs and stop lights. On the highway, we got 48 mpg round trip from California to Indiana with mountain stops at Whitney Portals, North Lake (above Bishop), and the upper Rockies. The air conditioning has a barely noticeable 1 or 2 mpg effect.
I'm not a power person, but it sure has all that is necessary to zip up any mountain grade. We live in the Sierras and do lots of hiking.
The original tires were crummy and we got new ones at 10,000 miles.
Since most of the braking is done by energy regeneration, the standard brake system should last much longer. The big question that no one knows the answer to is when the big battery will need replacement and at what cost.
It cost us $23,000 US with $2000 back from the San Joaquin Valley smog authority and a significant break on Federal tax. We lust to get another, but my Honda Civic Wagon only has 290,000 miles on it so we'll have to wait until I retire it at 400,000 miles.
The 2004 Prius is even better!
Toyota Prius: CA-Plate "low*smog" (Score:2, Interesting)
(CA-Plate "low*smog") for 2.5 years now.
-- I estimated it would save me thousands per year in the cost of gas in comparision to a Jeep Grand Cherokee
-- I *does* fit a family of 4 easily. I do this all the time.
-- It has plenty of room.
My wife got in the car at the dealer, determined it was "roomy", to her, and converted from a "Are you kidding" to "Let's buy it !" , on the spot.
-- You never "plug it in" to anyting.
All you do is fill it with the cheapest un-leaded gas you can find.
-- I have driven it hundreds of miles to LA, Yosimite, the Sierras
-- There is a 2-k Federal Tax break (still effective ?) if you buy this car.
-- Low Smog
-- Of course,
simple physics says smaller cars bring less momentum into any hypothetical collision than larger cars do.
-- So what. This is *not* a small car. It is a mid-sized sedan (grin).
-- Enjoy your new Toyota Prius !
but what about his point? (Score:3, Interesting)
His whole point was that raising the gas price doesn't change people's habits, and you just confirmed that. You said you spent your money on gas instead of Dew, that isn't changing your driving habits (but it might mean you'll lose a little weight from the decreased sugar intake).
More to the point of your post, though, is that yes, some vehicles (trucks) need a big engine to haul crap around... but only a very small percentage of the population actually needs one of those vehicles. My grandpa drove a mid-size sedan when he was raising his 6 kids, so you can't use the "I need it to ferry around my kids" excuse. With a 38 gallon gas tank, I'm assuming you have a truck... what do you use that large of a truck for? Would an S-10 or Ranger not work to haul stuff? Or is it an SUV that usually has one person and no cargo except groceries? If you actually use your overly large vehicle, how often do you use it for its purpose? If only once a month, maybe you can get a smaller car for the daily use and not spend much more money overall since you'll have decreased gas costs (a small used car can cost $1000, which you'll save in two years of gas costs). If you absolutely use that beast everyday for work, you can have your company pay for it or deduct it as a business expense.
The thing is, nothing at all is as cheap as gas. A gallon costs $2 in L.A. A gallon of water costs almost that much. A gallon of milk is more, so is a gallon of gatorade, mountain dew, etc. In Europe gas costs $5/gallon. Do you see many SUVs and trucks over there? No. Do they have a different type of person over there with fewer needs for large vehicles? No. They have the same needs as you do, but they just don't buy them.
Re:I flip over my Explorer! (Score:2, Interesting)
It's true. [hwysafety.org]
Some people they're smart because they once read a book on middle-school level physics. They write things like "More mass = more kinetic energy = more damage. More mass higher = higher center of gravity = more likely to flip." and thus, think they've settled the issue. But when you actually look at data instead of gesticulating madly, you find the issue is a lot more complicated. You find there are other issues than science you half-remembered from school.
Re:Getting a lot better (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Not me but a friend.. (Score:2, Interesting)
And I commute on foot from my bedroom to my office, so I don't drive all that much.
End of an era for me (Score:3, Interesting)
While I'm not shopping for a car right now, I figure the car I have now (a 1986 VW Jetta) is the last gas-engined car I will ever own. When I replace it I will probably buy a diesel, but will want to check out available hybrids. I really want them to work, but feel they're not quite there yet.
I have no complaints about gas mileage, with my car returning about 6 l/100km highway, 10 city. My car is licensed and insured as a pleasure vehicle, and I drive it to work one day each week to remind myself why I ride the bus the other 4 days. :-)
I've test-driven an Insight, and have ridden in several Priuses. A taxi company here runs a fleet of them, and a colleague drives one. He jokes that you need a laptop and a USB cable to hotwire his car. The first time I rode in it I thought it was an Echo, and marvelled at how quietly it idled. Then I saw the display on the dash and knew better...
...laura
Re:I flip over my Explorer! (Score:4, Interesting)
The real problem is akin to the problem of bike helmets. True story. When more people started wearing bike helmets injuries went up, not down. Why? Because they gave a false sense of invulnerability and safety. So people began driving more recklessly. It wasn't the bike helmets were inherently more dangerous. (Although recent studied have commented on neck twist injuries due to helmets) It was how people started driving their bikes.
Same with SUVs. The problem isn't the inherent safety of the SUV for those who drive halfway intelligently. It is the fact that people don't drive well. They think 4WD somehow makes them invulnerable in snow. Around here we have a lot of California students. First snow I like to sit at a particularly sharp turn and watch Californians in their SUVs go off the road because they are too dumb to drive slow on the icy snow.
The fact is that cars are a tool. They can be used well or poorly. I have a nice Pathfinder because I want to be able to drive to the places I enjoy hiking, biking and climbing. A lot of those you need 4WD to get to. I enjoy being able to go skiing and ice climbing without having to worry about the snow as much.
I complain about gas because I think a 20 cent increase in two weeks is freaking psycho. I'd probably complain the same if food or electricity went up that much. I can't afford two cars so my SUV is my primary vehicle. And while I want it for my weekend recreation I have to commute in it too. And that does add up.
Re:but what about his point? (Score:2, Interesting)
However, I will answer your questions.
1) I had (no longer, replaced the vehicle) a dual (20/18) tank pickup truck. Why not fill it with gas?
2) I don't fit in most cars comfortably (I'm 6'5", and trucks are about all I easily can drive)
3) Mountain Dew is indeed not a health food, thanks for the clinical advice.
4) Other than me not fitting, mini-trucks are underpowered for moving things and are scarcely better than a sedan in crashes.
5) I drive a large (Dodge Ram 1500) truck specifically because I'd prefer to be the stronger car in an accident. I don't wanna die unless I have to. so sue me
I can appreciate all the 'damn the gas guzzlers' sentiment I hear. I think much more of it comes from people being annoyed about the driving habits and visibility issues, of trucks and SUVs than with efficiency. I do wish folks would get off their soapbox and let other people do as they wish. I gave up expecting a perfect world (and expecting people to act as I wish) a long time ago.
Re:Getting a lot better - SmartCar (Score:1, Interesting)
That would help, but here's another: (Score:2, Interesting)
Resources needed to produce a car (Score:2, Interesting)
I've been wondering for awhile about how much it takes to produce a car, ever since I saw photos of a LNG bus that melted when the LNG tank blew. Here's a reasonable shot at overestimating the resources required:
Assume a 2000lb car (sorry, I use metric at work but everything I found on the web was in stupid units, so this post will be as well)
Assume it's 2000lbs of aluminum, made from ore and not recycled. I'm doing this because aluminum is VERY energy intensive to produce.
Each pound of aluminum takes the equivalent of 1.5 gallons of gas to make it (I found a web page that said that throwing away a 0.5oz aluminum can was equivalent to wasting 6 fluid ozs of gasoline).
So, it would take about 3000 gallons of gas to produce a car under the worst possible assumptions. Reasonable mileage on a used car will be 30mpg, whereas the prius supposedly gets about 50. After 60000 miles in the used car, you've lost the balance of resources, again, under the worst possible assumptions.
If you more correctly assume that the aluminum will be (mostly) recycled, the resource price drops by a factor of 20. Of course, my assumtions that using aluminum as a stand-in for everything else that goes into a car would probably fail then too.
I would love to see a better estimate of the energy resources required to make a car, so feel free to criticize (this is slashdot, so I'm sure you will)
What about the winter? (Score:3, Interesting)
(More than once I've found myself leaving work late at night in -40 degree temperatures, and have been grateful each time that my Saturn [sans block heater] has started flawlessly.)
Look at the TDI (Score:1, Interesting)
The VWVortex had a week long look at TDI technology [vwvortex.com]
Diesel engines have been proven in europe.
Europe mandated the use of low sulfur. So their diesel engines generate more HP/Torque.
Here in north america, low sulfur diesel will be mandated in 2007 see http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/ulsd/prefa
Another advantage to diesel engines is that you can run different types of diesel.
1) Biodiesel. see http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/faqs [biodiesel.org]
2) 100% biomater Biomater can be Vegitible oil or processed animal fats(roadkill and stuff that can't be processed in meat production)
3) Diesel
In fact you can go to KFC and get your fuel there
Greasel sells conversion kits for diesels http://www.greasel.com/ [greasel.com]
Anywho... Checkout VW's diesel spec sheet http://www.vw.com/art/engines/complete_specs_TDI.
Why not a Diesel if you are not in NY/CA/Alaska (Score:1, Interesting)
An hybrid with a gasoline engine could get better
milage, but still has the same maintenance issues
similar to any typical gasoline engine(except for
extended durations between oil changes/tuneup etc). Also it is difficult to get low cost service
if anything on the electrical side breaksdown.
A diesel car such as one from VW will be wonderful
in terms of MPG, freedom from tuneups and no physically noticeable difference. It would workout even cheaper, if you know how to make your
own biodiesel from recycled veggie oil. One other
thing to mention is that you get much higher torque even at low hp's and significantly reduced
engine wear(partly due to lower rpm of diesel engines, apart from from solid cast iron body to
withstand consistent knocking). For more info
take a look at: http://www.grassoline.com
Well actually yes (Score:2, Interesting)
Yes it has four sides, a top and a bottom. There are various small planes about the hood and windshield, but they're rather standard too.
Re:Getting a lot better (Score:5, Interesting)
1. Try to maintain a constant speed.
2. Accelerate evenly when taking off, using a moderate amount of electric motor assist.
3. Try to maintain a steady cruising speed between 35 and 45mph. The mpg bar will show you know when you've found the "sweet spot".
4. Gas mileage is noticeably higher in warmer weather.
5. Maintain large following distances, avoid hard braking, and roll through stops whenever possible. If you start braking early enough for that stop light, it could turn green while you're at 12mph instead of sitting at a dead stop.
6. Use the hardest, lowest rolling resistance tires you feel comfortable with (the stock Bridgestone Potenzas are good for me). Keep them properly inflated; underinflation decreases fuel economy.
7. Above about 30mph, you get better mpg with the windows up and air conditioner/vent in "economy" than with the windows down. Never use "auto" mode, since it disables the Insight's auto-stop feature.
Contrary to popular opinion, using a higher-grade gasoline has shown no noticeable affect on fuel economy.
My lifetime mpg over ~22,800 miles is 59.7mpg, including a trip from Louisville, KY to Seattle, WA and back by way of Montana. Through Snoqualmie and Lookout Pass. In January. With stock tires & no chains. As long as you don't try to plow through snow deeper than about 5-6", you should be fine through the winter.
Final note: don't forget to check with your accountant for a possible tax break (both state and federal) on your "green" vehicle. Being able to write off a couple thousand in taxes can make that $20,000 Insight a hell of a lot more appealing.
What about mechanical problems? (Score:2, Interesting)
The only input I have is this.
My car breaks down I have a lot of options. I have a friend whose Father and 2 brothers are great mechanics. I have a mechanic about 10 miles away that is honest and cheap.
Oil changes can be done almost anywhere.
When the day comes that I want to junk it I can take it to a junk yard and not have to concern myself with disposing of hazardous materials. I could be wrong, but don't those vehicles have lots of batteries and such?
If your vehicle never breaks down then you are in good shape.
Good luck.
Get a TDI and Get Better Mileage than either hybri (Score:1, Interesting)
Hybrid vehicles (Score:2, Interesting)
All five have proven to be flawless in operation. The commute group averages between 45 and 55 mpg on their daily commutes. When they are in very heavy traffic, they get considerably better mileage. I get an average of 40 mpg in my surface street travels. On my long (7 hours each way) trips from the Los Angeles South Bay area, I get 55 mpg if I drive 75 mph and I get 45-50 mpg if I drive 90 mph. That is with the air conditioner running, by the way. I had one stretch, on cruise control with no slowing or accelerating, on level ground, 75 mph, no a/c, where I got an average of 85 mpg for over 30 min! I have absolutely no trouble keeping up with traffic, even on long, steep climbs.
One thing I can pass on is perhaps more telling than anything. My wife drove her new BMW 330CI convertible over here, took the Prius back home, then refused to give up the Prius. I had to drive the BMW home and bring the Prius back myself. She is now going to buy a new Prius when they come out next month since she misses this one so much.
Pat
Re:Getting a lot better (Score:3, Interesting)
The reasoning goes that, if you can live off 75% of your wages, you are saving 25%. You then have 25% disposable income. Now if you save $5K today (in cost, not in cash), but it raises your monthly cost of living, that's bad. You have less disposable income, and now have to earn more money.
If you can take your money and pay off a loan today, and that lowers your monthly cost of living you should do it. Yes there is a limit to this. Taking a 1 year loan, and spreading it out over 20 years is financially stupid. However, given the option where it is a wash long term on the money, you always want to lower your monthly payments. There should be a strong bias towards lowering your monthly living expenses. The moment you aren't cash flow positive on monthly expenses, you start to run thru your credit rating, which will eventually lead you to bankrupty. That should be avoided at all costs.
Kirby
Re:Real Question: mpg vs total vehicle weight (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:but what about his point? (Score:1, Interesting)
If my smaller car hits the side of your car and hits the front wheels, your dead even at 20 mph. T-bone accidents are fatal for SUVs in more cases than smaller cars. You should check your facts before subscribing to a religion even if its the religion of the SUV.
Sparky Kilowatt sez... (Score:2, Interesting)
First Vehicle (Score:2, Interesting)
A simple fact of life is that younger/less experienced drivers are pretty likely to get into accidents, whether by their own fault or by not being experienced enough to spot someone else's error and compensate for it. Either way, as a rule of thumb, you should expect to wreck your first car. I happened to not ever wreck mine, but I think most people I know have.
With that, I would recomend that you do not get a new car, especially not a hybrid. You will be paying a lot to buy it, a lot in insurance (you'll want full coverage on that shiny new baby), etc. Also, you'll feel sad every time someone dings or scratches you parking. Not to mention if, as mentioned above, you wreck it.
I would advise getting an older (and maybe scratched) compact. I had great experience with Corollas which were 10+ years old. If you get something like that, you will pay less to start, less insurance (you can probably get away with liability) and you'll have a car that can be cheaply repaired by anyone. Also, after driving this car for a few years, you'll have some better point of view from which to chose your next vehicle. The state of the art of hybrids will advance also, and you'll be ahead w. some money and experience. You'll still have a chance of getting something like 30+ mpg, w. decent power and speed.
redgreen & there's not a gas station in sight/ (Score:2, Interesting)
And don't forget those biodiesel [biodiesel.org] vehicles. How many miles to the next fast-food place with a deep frier?
Driving in the Yukon this summer in a 92 Suzuki Sidekick. I did 600K on a tank of gas (10 imp. gallon tank.) I put a bit campstove fuel in at the end to make it another 20K to a gas station. Gas is $1/L way up north, the gas stations are few and far (really far) between and sometimes not open on Sunday. (Go get dude, yeah, dude has the key to the pump, oh no dude's gone fishing, oh forget it.)
I was wondering why the mpg in some of the posts seemed low, but that's per US gallon. Much better.<rant> i remember your duelly elected [cnn.com] president George w Bush (who I nhumbly support in his war for, I mean against, no wait you are either for or against, wait, no, we are against terrorism and for the war which somehow equates to peace, something like that, I'll have to switch on those informative us tv news channels to get it straight again with those live action hero figures and cards and such, ooh and oh so cool techy-military stuff) announced [chicagotribune.com] that the big 3 car companies would have the fuel efficiency technology available in about 4 years. Translation: we won't be havin us any US-made fuel efficient cars while Bush is president.
God bless him for killing all those terrorists (and breaking a few eggs [oneworld.net]) so we can have cheap gas for our gas guzzling SUVs. </rant> Blame Canada
My Civic hybrid is doing great (Score:2, Interesting)
I could probably get the same mileage, though, by just using an underpowered civic and driving at ridiculously slow acceleration, and turning off my engine at lights.
It's a wonderful toy, but maybe not practical if money is your only concern.
hybrid (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Not me but a friend.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Funny you should say it, but I have a VW, too. It's a 1971 Super Beetle. About as far apart from an SUV as you get, aside from a mini, I guess.