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Who Owns Your Weblog? 57

Posted by Cliff from the do-"they"-own-j00 dept.
An anonymous reader asks: "If you're a weblogger, have you read the fine print of your employment agreement? Many webloggers are techies and many tech employers have highly restrictive IP clauses in their employment contracts - the employers owns you and everything you do whether at work or at home or anywhere else. Are you sure you own your weblog? You may not be allowed to take it with you when you change jobs." As always, please remember to look over those employment contracts before you sign. With that point mentioned however, are employers still likely to employ someone who is willing to argue points on their contract, especially in this economic climate?
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Who Owns Your Weblog? More

Who Owns Your Weblog?

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  • well (Score:3, Insightful)

    by The Clockwork Troll ( 655321 ) on Wednesday September 24, 2003 @09:32PM (#7050979) Journal
    Are employers still likely to employ someone who is willing to argue points on their contract, especially in this economic climate?
    Put another way, are you willing to sell out title to your potential future ventures for the "comfort" of short-term job security?

    • Re:well (Score:1, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Welcome to the majority of the job openings in the US. And in my experience, no, employers don't negotiate employment contracts for any jobs below the Director (possibly Group Manager) level. The only way they'll negotiate is if they came to -you- for the position, not the other way around.

      • And in my experience, no, employers don't negotiate employment contracts for any jobs below the Director (possibly Group Manager) level.

        I'm no Director or Group Manager, just a hacker, but I've had such "All your time are belong to us" clauses striken from contracts twice.

        I just pointed out that, under the clause as written, I couldn't teach my karate classes, or write my poetry. Surely they didn't mean such a silly thing as that, I know it's not their intention, but I can't sign a binding document th

    • Re:well (Score:4, Informative)

      by stefanlasiewski ( 63134 ) * <slashdotNO@SPAMstefanco.com> on Wednesday September 24, 2003 @09:49PM (#7051106) Homepage Journal
      Put another way, are you willing to sell out title to your potential future ventures for the "comfort" of short-term job security?

      If you think it's about "comfort", you're probably not very familar with the dilemma.

      For most people, it's not a matter of "comfort", it's a matter of "Getting a job after a year of unemployment", "Not having to sell the house", "Feed the kids", "Switching industries and starting at the bottom", "Working at McDonalds".

      You make it seem like these these clauses are new. They've been in every employment contract I've seen for the last 8 years; and have been around for much, much longer then that.

      • Re:well (Score:2, Insightful)

        by bitty ( 91794 )
        I'm gonna take hell for this, but I'm so damn tired of the whining.

        If you're out of work, and the unemployment benefits run out, swallow your goddamn pride and get that job flipping burgers. Then go out and get a second part-time -- hell, even a full time job scooping ice cream or pouring coffee or something. Do that while you're looking for that job in the area of your expertise.

        But how can I do interviews when I'm working all the time?

        Make your "weekends" on a Tuesday and Wednesday or something. M
        • Stop bitching and do what you have to do to provide for your family, no matter how degrading.

          I think the parent was making the same point. But he was saying that sucking it up and not owning your blog is better than working at McDonald's. Now if you go to the grandparent, you've got a point.

          Or perhaps I'm all wrong. But 'providing for your family' is much easier done at some desk job than at Mc Donald's.

          Or something.

        • That's a good one:
          Do that while you're looking for that job in the area of your expertise.



          These crappy jobs must come with a potion to extend the day an extra 8 hours, so you can work full time AND look for a job full time. Or perhaps you're just supposed to skip sleeping.

      • Re:well (Score:3, Insightful)

        by MrResistor ( 120588 )
        What is up with all the whiners who think "The current economic situation" is synonomous with "must let any prospective employer take you from behind". You don't want to work for someone who thinks it's OK to treat their employees that way.

        Despite all the whining, there are plenty of other employers out there, and many of them don't have such clauses in their contracts. In fact, I have never seen an employment contract that had such a clause, and I do read them. I was just hired at a large tech company wit
      • Where do you stop the slippery slope?
        • Not sure, but it starts somewhere around "not taking a job in the corporate world".

          Some people do that, but they're probably not on Slashdot. Rather, they're hiking through the Himilayas or Patagonia right now.

  • easy. I do. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by susehat ( 558997 )
    I never let anyone have my ideas. I always disclose that I have the rights to all my work, and my employer has no rights at all, unless I implicitly assign them. I usually do, but hey, still, I'm not going to sell out. I have yet to run into any issues in the past, and this was for a government contractor.
  • They barely have any idea what to do by themselves. It's not the economy it's the desperation of the employer to get the document finished.

  • Adding the word "Weblogging" hardly makes this news. If they own "everything" then surely that encompasses "weblog", no?

    All I know is I can't ever sign anything like this. I can't afford to potentially taint my external

    • Re:News how...? (Score:3, Informative)

      by gl4ss ( 559668 )
      In most places such clauses carry no legal weight at all anyways, since you just can't sign some rights away(to avoid slavery&etc). Sure, the employer owns rights to stuff you do for them...
      • You're right. I've seen corporate IP lawsuits 3 times in my career (none that I was directly involved in other than being an expert witness) and all three times the employee won. The company can only legally claim the work you've done for them, while at work, and only if it's explicitly detailed in the contract.

  • Law? (Score:5, Informative)

    by LarryRiedel ( 141315 ) on Wednesday September 24, 2003 @11:00PM (#7051583)

    I work in california.us, where we have laws [ca.gov] about this kind of thing, for example:

    2870. (a) Any provision in an employment agreement which provides
    that an employee shall assign, or offer to assign, any of his or her
    rights in an invention to his or her employer shall not apply to an
    invention that the employee developed entirely on his or her own time
    without using the employer's equipment, supplies, facilities, or
    trade secret information except for those inventions that either:
    (1) Relate at the time of conception or reduction to practice of
    the invention to the employer's business, or actual or demonstrably
    anticipated research or development of the employer; or
    (2) Result from any work performed by the employee for the
    employer.
    (b) To the extent a provision in an employment agreement purports
    to require an employee to assign an invention otherwise excluded from
    being required to be assigned under subdivision (a), the provision
    is against the public policy of this state and is unenforceable.

    2871. No employer shall require a provision made void and
    unenforceable by Section 2870 as a condition of employment or
    continued employment. Nothing in this article shall be construed to
    forbid or restrict the right of an employer to provide in contracts
    of employment for disclosure, provided that any such disclosures be
    received in confidence, of all of the employee's inventions made
    solely or jointly with others during the term of his or her
    employment, a review process by the employer to determine such issues
    as may arise, and for full title to certain patents and inventions
    to be in the United States, as required by contracts between the
    employer and the United States or any of its agencies.

    Larry

    • I also work in california, and to their credit, my employer made this very clear upfront, citing this specific passage.

      For their courtesy, I don't check my personal email, post to my weblog, work on personal projects, sleep, run pyramid schemes, etc. from work.

      Thus, they pay me to work on their stuff, and I do. And then I go home and work on other stuff, which largely helps keep me sane.

      -transiit

    • Re:Law? (Score:3, Redundant)

      by exhilaration ( 587191 )
      Dude, I think this part sums it up pretty well: shall not apply to an invention that the employee developed entirely on his or her own time without using the employer's equipment, supplies, facilities...

      If you're doing this using your employer's computer, using your employer's Internet connectivity, in your employer's facilities then you this law doesn't protect you.


      • Who says you can't make a deal ($ for use)
        like that, but which doesn't force you to
        give away something you value?

        Such a deal might save you travel time,
        eg if you're (otherwise) on-call, ie
        when you're needed back at the office
        (you might aleady be there, doing your
        own thing on contracted gear, using a
        fast 'net connection you've contracted
        to use on a strictly after-hours basis;
        walk over, fix their glitch [quicker than
        you would if you had to drive in first]
        & later resume your own

      • Re:Law? (Score:3, Insightful)

        by yuri benjamin ( 222127 )
        If you're doing this using your employer's computer, using your employer's Internet connectivity, in your employer's facilities then you this law doesn't protect you.

        And neither should it! They provide you with the tools to do your job for them, not for your own use.
        OTOH I don't see what business it is of theirs what you do in your own time with your own resources.

        A very sensible law.

    • My contract has the usual sort of clause assigning rights to my employer for things I create. It also has a specific exemption (that they put in, not me) for anything created outside my normal working hours and unconnected with my employment.

      I asked to see a copy of the full contract before accepting the job, precisely to check whether such a clause was there. If it hadn't been, and they hadn't been prepared to insert one, they wouldn't have got me.

      No, the employment market is not so bad that I will sig

  • Creative editing (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    A while back, my employer asked me to sign yet another IP assignment agreement ... sigh. Fortunately, it was sent around as an MS-Word document to be printed, signed and turned in to HR.

    The doc was much like previous ones, but contained a total assignment of all copyrights. I thought that was over-reaching, and modified the language to read exactly like for inventions and patents "in the course of or resulting from employment". Signed and sent the form in two years ago. No probs. They won't look at it

    • I just signed one myself; yesterday and I really don't care about IP until the fatal seperation from the JOB. Today I got Wined and Dined by the BIG boss and got a lot of Info on the Job. I do sometimes worry that something I'm doing under my own house to make money on the side could be snatched. The answer is: Copyright or trademark it. Your lawyer will be able to justify to the judge that it was yours (hardware or software invention) and say a lot of other stuff about protecting things that go on in y

  • Experience With a Restrictive Employment Contract (Score:5, Informative)

    by Babbster ( 107076 ) <aaronbabb&gmail,com> on Wednesday September 24, 2003 @11:32PM (#7051772) Homepage
    First off, I'm not a techie, so this won't apply to a great many people here. That being said, these kinds of agreements have popped up in a lot of places over the past decade or so even outside the tech professions.

    My experience was at the American Red Cross. I was responsible for maintaining our local list of ineligible blood donors (positive infectious disease test results and the like). One day, everyone in the place was presented with a new "employment agreement" which we were supposed to sign. One of the provisions indicated just what is described in this story; specifically, anything I happened to create, invent, design, etc. - whether during work hours or not - belonged to the American Red Cross unless they decided to relinquish those rights. Now, I'm no kind of inventor but I was 23 years old with few responsibilities beyond myself and so I was the perfect person to protest this agreement on pure principle. I adamantly refused to sign the paper because I felt that it gave too much power over my life to my employer, not to mention the fact that a non-profit corporation specializing in disaster relief and blood collection/distribution shouldn't have an interest in anything that I create (assuming it has nothing to do with disaster relief, blood collection, etc.).

    At first, I was told that if I didn't sign the paper I was risking the loss of my job. I maintained that this was a chance I was willing to take (and encouraged others to do the same). About a month later, the new employment agreement was revised into a more palatable format. Though I can't recall if it specified inventions/creations relating specifically to my employment or if the clause was taken out completely, the document was acceptable and I signed.

    My advice is pretty simple: Check your state/local laws - as in a post above, an overly restrictive clause of this nature could be invalid on its face. If it IS valid, then you have to decide if a) you're willing (and financially able) to leave the job on principle to hopefully find one where you're not forced to sign such an odious document, b) you're going to create/design/invent something in which your company would want to claim an interest or c) you know you're not going to create something that you will want to sell (or release, a la open source) to which you could lose your rights. After all, while a company could theoretically lay claim to, for example, your David Hasselhoff fan site, they probably won't. On the other hand, if you create brand new database software in your free time while working for [any] software company, they could potentially strip it from you and from anyone else to whom you have given or sold it.

    At the risk of going too long, remember too that Steve Wozniak worked for HP when he created the Apple computer. He offered it to them because as part of his contract he was required to do so. They had no interest at all, which I'm sure they regretted for a long time.

    • At the risk of going too long, remember too that Steve Wozniak worked for HP when he created the Apple computer. He offered it to them because as part of his contract he was required to do so. They had no interest at all, which I'm sure they regretted for a long time.

      And I'm sure they won't make *that* mistake again.

    • "They had no interest at all, which I'm sure they regretted for a long time."

      As such, companies now are trying to retain rights to _everything_ rather than let anyone catch a break from them.

      Although the temptation is to argue the toss, I think it tends to depend on what's being talked about...if you develop a competing product at work, then there's no doubt that you owe them, but there isn't a chance in hell that I'd let my company have any part of my life outside hours or the front doors unless they p
    • I've been asked to sign that kind of agreement about three times in my career, and every time I have declined on the grounds that it would give them rights to my web site, any code that I wrote to update Opensource projects, and even personal emails that I write to my family while at home.

      In no case I have ever seen was a person actually fired for not signing one of these. On the other hand, I've never been in a situation where I had to sign one of those to get hired in the first place. Are there any act
      • Yup. Basically at my current job I signed the original employment agreement accepting their offer then they pulled a bunch of IP docs out as a "second wave" of contracts. That second wave included signing over everything from actual code to mere design or technique work that I created on my spare time. Don't recall the list of what I signed over, but it was about 7 or so lines long of comma separated items and I remember being pretty sure they covered anything I or any of my family members or decendants w

  • Huh? (Score:1)

    by Kris_J ( 10111 )
    The question doesn't make sense. Is the poster asking about weblog software developed on company time, or weblog entries made from home? If I fix a friend's computer, the company I happen to work for don't suddenly own it, nor can they send said friend a bill -- that's just silly. My weblog used to live on my own personal bit of webspace given to me as part of my private dial-up account, in no way funded by any company I've ever worked for. I might have been concerned about some cow-orkers reading it, b
    • Actually, the story is actually telling you TO be concerned...

      Re-read your employment contract... chances are that it says that they can claim ownership of your "wn personal bit of webspace given to [you] as part of [your] private dial-up account" if they want... Probably also your letters to the editor...

      Be careful what you assume...

      • Actually, the story is actually telling you TO be concerned...
        Ah, scare-mongering. Slow news day is it?
    • On the other hand a weblog is probably something that even if they could claim ownership of they won't. Unless it directly relates to your job (which It could I guess) why should they care?

      I am not working at the moment, but if I was would my employer really want to own my articles on names for use in the sca and my pictures of Jerusalem? All are on my web site, but who cares.
  • I had a huge fight with my weblog host. They locked me out of my blog, and refused to relinquish control when I migrated to a new host, leaving my old dead blog to compete with my new blog. I had to file a DMCA complaint to get back control. The asshole webhost still doesn't realize how close they came to having their entire system disconnected, just because they decided to be vindictive and fuck with me. I felt really bad about considering a DMCA complaint until I finally came to the conclusion they were j

  • So, use Greenspun's "Gang of Five" model... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by ivi ( 126837 ) on Thursday September 25, 2003 @01:50AM (#7052476)
    The quoted name is my spin-off...
    and - it's been a so long since I
    first read about it - that I may
    have the number of team members
    wrong...

    But the idea is something like this:

    It's a business model for database-based
    web system design that brings [4 or] 5
    talents together to work on a stream of
    projects, rotating "hats" (ie, Project
    Manage, Programmer, Customer Liason,
    Graphic Designer, et al.) as they move
    from one project to another.

    As the number of projects grows to be
    more than one "Gang of [4 or] Five"
    can handle, another "Gang" forms to
    handle the overload.

    I suppose there could be a loose coupling
    between the various, independent "Gangs"
    (eg, to enable "load balancing" to happen),
    but they could just as well remain separate
    entities & control their own destinies...
    a bit like music bands.

    Thus, if you control your own destiny,
    you can write your own IP clauses...
    to encourage members' creativity,
    while still protecting Clients' rights
    to their IP & sensitive business info.

    I can see a contract (akin to the GPL),
    - incorporating these IP terms - that
    each "Gang of [4 or] Five" would find
    acceptable.

    Of course, I can also see a family of
    such contracts (like those that have
    been embraced by one or more developers
    of various flavors of Open Source S/W),
    that new "Gangs" could choose, accord-
    ing to their &/or their current Client's
    preferences & needs.

    IMO this problem has an easy solution!

  • It might help put a bit of pressure on employers,
    eg if their contractual IP terms were -listed- on
    a well-known web site, that people could consult,
    just before job-hopping...

    If it were -also- suggested that -less- creative
    people (ie those with little to lose by signing
    a -bad- IP contract) were more likely to be the
    ones working at one category of company, than
    the other category...

    well, those companies concerned about their
    reputations in the market (eg, as being very
    innovative), might

  • I do it (Score:3, Interesting)

    by setien ( 559766 ) on Thursday September 25, 2003 @03:44AM (#7052873)
    I always argue whatever points I feel unfair on my contract. The last 3 jobs I have had, I have had them change that clause so it only includes what I do in my working hours.
    I find that clause so completely unacceptable, and I think any workplace who would not concede to change it, are a bunch of nasty buggers anyway.
    I argue that I partake in open source projects and free/shareware. That's usually ample argument.
    • I agree that is totally unacceptable. Given that the EU and UN seem to be introducing various human rights laws, and I remember that one of them prevented your employer contacting you at home or somesuch, I wonder if these agreements might violate one of those laws? I know IP isn't usually the domain of human rights but you never know what the laws can be applied to..
  • Your employer typically has no interest in your weblog, or he novel you write in your free time (unless they're a publisher), or anything that's not related to their business.

    Simply ask them to exclude anything that is done entirely in your free time without use of company equipment, and most companies will accept. It doesn't cost them anything, and even though the market is in decline, they still don't want to get rid of employees over trivial disputes over contractual clauses.
    • That lack of interest can disappear very quickly if your part-time project becomes a commercial success. Greed is a great motivator.

  • You don't have to accept it (Score:3, Interesting)

    by TheLink ( 130905 ) on Thursday September 25, 2003 @12:55PM (#7055926) Journal
    Either you walk away or:

    a) Negotiate. (if you have good rapport)
    OR
    b) Change the contract explicitly - strike out paragraphs. (if you have good bargaining power or couldn't be bothered).
    OR
    c) Write a new contract that looks almost the same and use it.
    (if you don't have bargaining power).

    Yes. Change it to suit yourself. Print it out again make it look almost exactly the same - fonts, layout etc.

    If both parties sign it, then it's agreed then. Hey they entered into it with their eyes opened right?

    Just tell them you need time to think about it. Go home, pick the right fonts, similar paper and reproduce the whole thing with a few custom changes.

    Remember keep a straight face, sign it, give it to them and they'll probably sign it without reading the fine print (idiots ;) ).

    If they notice, well you've proven one thing to them at least:
    1) you're resourceful.
    2) you're one of the few who treat what they sign seriously. Not one of the sheeple.

    I've successfully done a similar thing before on a so called NDA. Took me a couple of hours to retype the thing and get the font sizes right.

    But let me put it this way - the new NDA didn't restrict my rights at all...

    Of course in the US you might come under the DMCA for reverse engineering the contract document or some other dumb US law. But I'm not in the US.
    • c) Write a new contract that looks almost the same and use it.

      That sounds dangerously close to fraud and deceptive business practices to me. At the very least, it shows substantial bad faith on your part. If you want to negotiate something, then by all means negotiate it. But at least be honest about it.
  • I know mine has very few details of my work life, primarily because I have no interest in writing about work when I'm not at work. If I were to post some details about my work that my employer might consider theirs, I'd be more afraid of losing my job, rather than taking that information with me and facing the consequences.

    Does anyone know people that actually post copyrighted code, inside stock information, blueprints, etc. on their weblog??
  • Don't use your real name; use a pseudonym. Seems pretty straightforward.
  • This doesn't make sense. A web log is akin to a journal or diary. How many employers assert ownership of employees' diaries? How many IP clauses in employment agreements could reasonably be construed as applying to diaries? Do you really think the IP ownership clause in your contact would be applied to a note you write in a mother's day card?

    Now if you are a journalist, reporter, or employed in a fashion along those lines as an employee and not a free-lance contributor, then I could see personal writin
  • Last year, I took a job at a large company, and based on all of the scuttlebutt that flies around Slashdot, I feared that I would be subject to the type of employee contract that the original poster talks about. In the past, I had worked for a number of smaller firms. While they each had a contract for me to sign with regards to assignment of copyrights and patents, they were all limited. Now that I was about to embark on a career in the Fortune 500, I was afraid that they would make me sign a onerous co

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