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Upgrades Hardware

Using USB to Separate Computer and Keyboard/Mouse? 66

Posted by Cliff from the gaining-some-distance dept.
Klaus Thorn asks: "As a member of a technical team that plans a radio station with several audio-editing cabins I'm thinking about separating the noisy heat-producing computer from the cabin using one VGA cable and one USB cable. The computer is in the computer storage room. In the cabin there is (besides LCD) an USB hub with keyboard, mouse, soundcard and CDR-drive. Has anyone tried this? I need to know whether this all-USB-solution is clean and stable or a bunch of problems. I need to know what distance I can put between cabin and computer-storage room. Let's assume USB 2.0 and amplifying USB cables and Windows XP."

"One more detail: When the admin changes some hardware in the computer store room he does not want to run to the cabin to push a button. He could plug out the USB cable and plug in another USB cable that is connected to mouse and keyboard in the same room. After he's finished he could exchange the usb cables again (to the one leading to the cabin). This is only sensible if the computer will accept all four USB devices without driver reinstall and reboot. Anyone tried this or can predict wether this will work?"
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Using USB to Separate Computer and Keyboard/Mouse? More

Using USB to Separate Computer and Keyboard/Mouse?

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  • Just use this (Score:2, Interesting)

    by GigsVT ( 208848 )
    Here [cyberguys.com]
    • Looks good, but it left me with an un-answered question: Is USB one of the things it extends (along with VGA, Keyboard, etc.), or do the two units communicate over USB? They imply the latter, but they say it uses CAT5 wire. They lost me.

      • Re:Just use this (Score:2, Informative)

        by GigsVT ( 208848 )
        I've got one just like this at work, but it is PS/2 instead of USB. It uses CAT5 and extends USB KB/Mouse and VGA video in this case, in my case it uses cat5 and extends PS/2.
        • Google search for "USB over IP".
          • That would be 'USB over Ethernet'

            There's no need to cram in a protocol requirement where any protocol would do.
            • Theres no need to cram in a physical network requirement when IP runs over just about everything. 6 and 1/2 dozen of another. Its all just some form of USB tunnel.

              • Re:Just use this (Score:3, Informative)

                by PurpleFloyd ( 149812 )
                Why encumber a product with IP when it doesn't need it? This is designed for end-to-end transmissions over a single wire; IP is ridiculous overkill incorporating useless overhead for things like routability and the ability to communicate with multiple devices.

                In fact, the designers of this product seem to have even dispensed with Ethernet (note that it only says it'll work with Cat5 and contains its own gain control system - something that to me tells me that it's using some sort of broadband signaling, ra

                • Because you can easily, cheaply set up an ethernet bridge to wherever the you want the tunnel to go. IP goes anywhere. And, yes, I realize you need a physical medium for a signal to transmit over "duh". Routing it over IP allows ubiquitous access. Any computer can be the destination, not just whats on the other end of the CAT5. It doesn't have to be IP encapsulated, but it sure does help. And it probably doesn't hurt. Also, if you're using USB remotely, I really doubt latency is much of an issue wi
                  • However, video signals are analog and high-bandwidth. To run one over IP, you would need to have an ADC at the source end, plus compression hardware if you ever want to run more than TV resolutions in realtime. The point of this device is to put a computer in one room and a console in another, not to allow use of a computer from around the world.

                    If you need access to your US-based computer from China, you'd be much better off using VNC [realvnc.com], X, MS Terminal Services, or another remote-console app, combined with

              • 6 and 1/2 dozen of another.

                You must be from Europe.

                In Soviet Russia, the dozens own you.
      • The two unites are connected via the CAT5 cable and extend the various listed protocols.
    • Uh, perhaps he doesn't use it because it costs $300!!!!!

  • Check first (Score:4, Interesting)

    by segvio ( 540235 ) on Friday September 26, 2003 @04:33PM (#7066912)
    Look up specs on USB audio devices. Many (and I mean MANY) will not work at all on USB (power or unpowered) hubs and require a direct USB connection.
    • Use a diskless fanless box in the cube as a thin client; this reduces your cable count to one ethernet cable only (and Andrew's [motium.com.au] little gems use so little power that you could concievably even power the sucker through the RJ45, dunno about the audio stuff). Get the humming box to do the hard work (recoding, effects et al), the thin client just displays stuff and feeds audio streams to the sound card. 100 megabits box-to-box with nobody else on the cable should be overkill.

      If real dinkum thinkum happens infr

  • Try it yourself (Score:5, Informative)

    by Rick the Red ( 307103 ) <Rick.The.Red@nOsPaM.gmail.com> on Friday September 26, 2003 @04:36PM (#7066943) Journal
    Not to be flip, but why not try it yourself? Surely you have a Windows PC with at least one USB port, so give it a go. From personal experience when I unplug most USB devices Windows gives a warning that I should have told it first, but Windows doesn't crash. You might also try two keyboards (one in each of two USB ports) to see if you don't need to unplug the remote keyboard to use a local one (I'm sure you can find PCs with two USB ports and use one for local, the other for remote).

    As for how far you can go, I would think VGA is your limiting factor, not USB.

    • Re:Try it yourself (Score:5, Informative)

      by sweetooth ( 21075 ) * on Friday September 26, 2003 @05:00PM (#7067162) Homepage
      You can use multiple usb keyboards on a pc. Or you could use a USB keyboard and a PS/2 keyboard at the same time. I've done all of the above with no problem. I believe the max extension on a VGA cable is 25ft and USB is 15' without signal boosting. If you want to spend a bunch of money you can get a KVM extender style setup which lets you extend the keyboard, mouse, video, and audio up to 250ft over CAT5.
      • You can also use multiple mice on USB or USB and PS/2. It works fine in Linux, anyway, and I don't expect it would be a problem for Windows. I don't recommend having a 3-year-old on the other mouse, though.

        • Works fine in Windows, except when each mouse has special features. If you want the special features for just one of them, fine. Just install the driver that came with it. The default driver will kick in for the other one. If you want special features for both, it is a bit tricky to get both drivers to get along with each other in the control panel. The hardware drivers are fine. It is just the control panel that gets confused.
    • I don't think VGA has to be a problem. Sure, if you chain a bunch of cheap VGA extension cables your picture will probably suck and have lots of ghosting. However, if you used good quality 75 ohm coax you should be able to get great quality and long range.

  • usb (Score:3, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 26, 2003 @04:47PM (#7067047)
    USB is nice in that multiple peripherals can all use the same port, but it just plain sucks for a variety of reasons
    1. It's a master/slave relationship, rather than p2p
    2. Bandwidth is limited.
    3. the irq/dma conflicts make people yearn for the simplicity of editting dos/windows ini files

    USB is good for keyboards and mice (only because hot-plugging is allowed), and simple low-bandwidth usage. However, USB drives (especially cdr) is asking for trouble.


    It's a shame firewire isn't more prevalent. It's a better solution for higher i/o peripherals.

    • Re:usb (Score:3, Informative)

      by Snafoo ( 38566 )
      First of all, I think the question-poster has a really good idea: Computer interfaces *can* and *should* be separable from the beige box. Furthermore, I don't think that implementing this shit in USB **2.0** is such a bad idea. According to http://www.apple.com/firewire/ (hardly a non-partisan source ;) Firewire 800 (the latest Firewire standard) is only twice as fast as USB 2.0, allowing transfer rates of up to 800Mbs, which "delivers more than double the effective bandwidth of the USB 2.0 peripheral sta

    • Re:usb (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Schmucky The Cat ( 687075 )
      Nobody cares that it's a master slave relationship. Especially for HID. Why would you want a keyboard that had a special peering relationship with the box?

      Bandwidth is not limited for the purpose. He has 400Mbps to play with for hi-speed devices. If he's only got full speed, he's got 12Mbps, which (since it's pretty much dedicated) is enough to stream several uncompressed audio channels.

      USB uses a single IRQ for the host controller. Devices don't use any irq or dma resources on the host machine. O

  • I have two mice plugged in right now--an old one in a PS/2 port (through a USB -> PS/2 adaptor), and a cordless mouse plugged into a USB port. Both worked fine right when plugged in, and work together--move one up and the other to the right and the cursor goes up and to the right simultaneously.

    Also, "USB 2.0" doesn't mean anything anymore.

  • Have you considered Firewire? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by TorgoGuy ( 628169 ) on Friday September 26, 2003 @04:57PM (#7067133)
    The Firewire spec allows for much longer cables than USB. A bought two 32ft firewire cables that were guaranteed to operate at that distance (www.granitedigital.com) and put a firewire hub to connect the two together. That gave me 64 feet of distance.

    I have done CD/DVD burning, printing, and scanning, with no problems over this 64ft distance.

    I used a refurb Cybex extender for the keyboard, video and mouse over one CAT5 cable.
  • ... with my redhat linux 7.x/8/9 (i remember tweaking rc.sysinit in 7.something), also with BIOS (and win2k). No ps/2 needed.

    I have a cherry keyboard with built-in 4x usb hub, mouse attached to it (and racing wheel ;-).

    I'm thinking about tinkering some more usb connectors and a switch/toggle into that keyboard so that i can connect it more than one pc, easy switching to and fro. Ok, i still need a vga switch ...

    /graf0z.

    ps: anybody experiances with soundblaster extigy [soundblaster.com] or an audigy2nx and linux?

  • Try diskless with VNC (Score:5, Informative)

    by Craig Maloney ( 1104 ) * on Friday September 26, 2003 @05:04PM (#7067200) Homepage
    Diskless with VNC might get you where you want to be. You can reduce the noise from drives and fans, and you'll be able to control the main machine(s) from the audio rooms.

  • Some mods I'd make (Score:3, Insightful)

    by bluGill ( 862 ) on Friday September 26, 2003 @05:07PM (#7067235)

    While I understand the value of putting all comptuers in a server room, I think that you would be better of to just have the computer in a closet outside the room, or in a soundproof (yet well cooled...) cabinet inside. I'm not convinced you will be changing hardware often enough to make pushing a button in each cabin a problem. Software updates are a different issue, and those you might change often.

    I strongly recomend you keep most of your disks in a file server, and store all files on that. With SAMBA (windows networking can work too) to share as needed. Keep the harddrive noise far away because it is on the network. Also puts the componants you most want to replace in a central location next to the comptuer they are connected to, and lusers can't touch that machine.

    Extended cables work ok at best, but you are introducing potential problems with them. By having the comptuer just outside you can run a few more cables inside the room, and still get off just as good.

    Drop the USB cd drives for ieee1394 (firewire). A little more complex, but you have a solution that was designed for data drives from the start. If you have a lot of money fibre channel would be nice, but odds are you don't.

    USB in theory allows you to plug multipul devices in. I'd expiriment with a usb hub local to the machine for pluging a second keyboard/mouse into without unpluging the one in the remote room. Dual monitor graphics cards exist, I'd consider putting one in each machine, so you don't have to unplug the remote monitor. Remember unpluging cables is what damages them, so you want to avoid that. Monitor are not always hot-plug, so you don't want to unplug them anyway. Or, instead of the complexities of the above, will VNC or similear solve all console admin needs?

    Expiriment first. Try all the technology on one computer (that you can borrow for the purpose) first, to make sure it will work ok. If there is a problem that you can't overcome you don't want to have bought a large setup only to find it won't work.

    One other thing I'd be tempted to try is some custom mini-ITX boards in a custom case. Use flash for booting, and set it read-only so that lusers don't go breaking the configuration. (better yet boot from the net, but that isn't easy) Provides most of the outputs you want, and use the network for all your admin. With the right heatsinks and case design they make no noise. When you do have to do a hardware change, you pull a spare off the shelf, make the change, test it, then bring the whole system to the cabin and replace the old on.

    Not all these ideas are compatable. Only you know your exact setup, so only you know what will work for you.

  • I may be naive, or cargo culting [brocku.ca], but have you considered Bluetooth devices? For at least part of the problem, bluetooth seems to have been designed exactly to meet these needs: my impression is that Bluetooth keyboards & mice could take care of at least that portion of the devices you're trying to attach, provided that the connection distance isn't too far (the ranges needed are never stated in the original posting).

    As for display, sound card & CD drive, I'm not sure what the best approach is. As

    • For at least part of the problem, bluetooth seems to have been designed exactly to meet these needs:

      I can't see how Bluetooth (or more specifically any radio-IO mechanism) can be appropriate for heavy workplace use.

      The fact is that unless the mouse and keyboard are on at least one cable, they'll need batteries to be replaced.

      A radio-station isn't like an office, where deadlines are measured in days. Seconds count, and if batteries go dead at a critical juncture, that's dead air. Sure, you can mostly e
  • Hey, they got these new things. They call them, laptops. They're great when you want a computer anywhere without a lot of clutter. You can even plug mice and keyboards into them!

    Running video cable from the video card all the way over will limit you. USB is iffy, it only goes so far. A Viewsonic Wireless Monitor might do the trick, but then you might as well get a powerbook or thinkpad or tablet or something.
    • Trouble is, most of today's reasonably fast laptops generate quite a bit of fan noise - which is the primary problem the OP wants to fix.
  • I solidly recommend the USB extension devices from Icron technologies (http://www.icron.com/).

    I work with somebody that is one of their former engineers, and we've got one of their Ranger 410 models being used to allow us to locate the station for our SGI Onyx3200 approx. 50m from the actual machine (which is in the server room).

    I have it on good advice that they have a USB2 product in the works, which would be suitable for your CD burning.

    However I think you still might want to consider providing both U
  • Why don't you just build some cool-running, fanless PCs? Some of the Mini-ITX range run without fans and they're pleny powerful enough for audio work. Just get a quiet hard drive and you're set.
  • I don't know about any other devices on the same USB bus, but you can have two mice and two keyboards plugged into a PC at the same time with no problems, at least under XP. All the inputs work at the same time - I often have multiple input devices plugged into my laptop at the same time for software demos...
  • You might want two USB cables - one holding USB2.0 HiSpeed devices only (eg: the CD Writer, if it's hispeed) and the other carrying USB1.1/FullSpeed devices. (Otherwise the CD Writer will be limited to USB1.1 speeds, which wouldn't be as reliable.)

    It should in theory work. If you want to do this sort of thing in a big way, look at BlackBox ServSwitch gear - if you want to remotely manage a whole farm of computers.

    As others point out, there's no need for your admin to disconnect the remote keyboard when
  • Have you considered LCDs? I do believe that their cables can go longer than VGA cables, but I may be mistaken there. You also have the bonus of less heat, and no CRT monitor whine too.
    • It's not correct to compare VGA vs LCD cables. There's really no such thing as an "LCD cables".

      Computer video cables can be VGA or DVI. Monitors can be CRT or LCD. Since both LCD and DVI are newer, one might tend to lump them together, but this doesn't have to be the case. LCD screens with VGA connectors are common, and CRTs that use DVI do exist.
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • blade desktops? (assuming you've not already got the hardware?).
    I've just read an article about them at ZDNet [zdnet.co.uk].
    Looks like the main manufacturer at the moment is ClearCube [clearcube.com], although HP [hp.com] are about to get in on the act.
  • You could always go with a fanless computer, some of the VIA itx mobos with the slower processors need no fan. USB 2.0 is not yet enabled in 2.4 kernel to best of my knowledge, but can be put is as a module. But definitely - keep some Firewire options open shalom,
  • Now, I know this is a bit off topic but it just seems easier to put an old (400Mhz, slot loading) iMac in there - cheaper too. No fan, small form factor, etc. If for some reason the propriatary software doesn't support OS X, use VNC to control the PC.

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